350x seized engine diagnostics

[dman10]

So, a few months ago I picked up a 86' 350X. Low hours, 90% original, don't think its been abused a day in its life. I picked it up cheap due to a locked up engine. The PO said he bought it like that and never got around to looking at it and had no clue what happened.
Anyways,
I bought it as a winter project and its bout that time of year. So im wondering, how should I begin diagnosing it? Pull the clutch cover and looking for a grenaded engine? What? I don't know squat about these monsters.
Thanks,
Daniel

[Aulbaugh]

looks nice, was that a local trike?

[Scootertrash]

I'd start at the top and work my way down. Pulling the head and looking in the cylinder can tell you a lot. It'll all have to come apart if it's the bottom end anyway.

[dman10]

looks nice, was that a local trike?
It was down in San Antonio. he was selling it with a really nice 85' which I couldn't afford. He still had the other for sale last time I checked.


I'd start at the top and work my way down. Pulling the head and looking in the cylinder can tell you a lot. It'll all have to come apart if it's the bottom end anyway.
That's kinda what I figured, really didn't want to pull the engine till I had to. They're heavy. I know that much.

[Aulbaugh]

Was the guys name Ernie.

[Aulbaugh]

Yeah I'm in the process of a rebuild and just like Scootertrash stated, I pulled the engine and started from the top down.

[3wheelrider]

Before you pull it apart-pull the sparkplug and squirt some penetrate in the cylinder & let it soak a few days.
The piston rings sometimes stick to the cylinder (slight rust from moisture) after sitting MANY years. It may/may not work but well worth a try. Make sure theres oil in the crankcase also. It looks like low hrs. on it so it might be just that.

[dman10]

yeah, his name was ernie.

[dman10]

Before you pull it apart-pull the sparkplug and squirt some penetrate in the cylinder & let it soak a few days.
The piston rings sometimes stick to the cylinder (slight rust from moisture) after sitting MANY years. It may/may not work but well worth a try. Make sure theres oil in the crankcase also. It looks like low hrs. on it so it might be just that.
Ok, Ill give it a shot, and yes, there was oil in the crankcase till I drained.

[Aulbaugh]

same 350x?

[knappyfeet]

Before you pull it apart-pull the sparkplug and squirt some penetrate in the cylinder & let it soak a few days.
The piston rings sometimes stick to the cylinder (slight rust from moisture) after sitting MANY years. It may/may not work but well worth a try. Make sure theres oil in the crankcase also. It looks like low hrs. on it so it might be just that.

X 2 with the penetrating get oil.

80% of all seized motors I freed up I did this way. That's what's up

[dman10]

Just fill it with pblaster? and will I need to clean it out before I run the engine? If so how?

[ATC-Eric]

If the piston rings rusted to the cylinder, you will want to hone and re ring at the least. If you just free it up and run it, it will more then likely smoke. If not right away, eventually.


I would do the pb blaster to get it free, then pull the top end to make it fresh again.

[jb2wheels]

Oil filter put in wrong and starved top end?

[El Camexican]

After the penetrant has done its thing don't try and free it with the starter, put it in gear and rock it back and forth first.

[hrc200x]

I looked at a 350x that was seized, put it in 6th gear and pulled it backward and it turned over. Tried kicking it and it would do all most a full revolution and lock up again. On a different engine I was rebuilding when the crank and counter balancer was installed in the left side cover and rotated it did the same thing rotate almost a full revolution then locked, it would rotate the other way and lock, never did buy the bike that would lock up or figure out why the other motor locked. Hopefully this isn't your case, and it is just the rings stuck.

[oscarmayer]

Sounds like either broken gear in the trans or Mis-assembled.


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[ATC-Eric]

We had an X here in Missouri we thought was locked up. One of the Cam bolts backed out, and caught on the case. Easy fix.

[John Tice]

No matter what, you will have to drop the engine & start taking it apart. I suppose the side covers should come off first.
Next, taking apart the top end. At this point you should have discovered the problem.
It’s time for a real mechanic to step in.

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com .
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

:beer

[tri again]

so?
Dead locked with kick starter?
What if you put it in gear, like 3rd, and try to rock it that way?
I usually try the simple stuff first.
Cylinder full of water or mouse nest? bees nest?
I had one dead locked because someone STOMPED on the brakes
and NOthing would move.
No rock, no roll, no shift, starter wouldn't do anything as it was locked in 3rd gear or so.

Does it roll in neutral?

Honestly had me stumped for a while.

Really hope it's a simple fix.

[oscarmayer]

Any reports?


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[dman10]

Holy necropost batman, but small update,
Got both side covers off, nothing that alarms me, some slight corrosion and rust on the shifter side, clean as a whistle on the kicker side. Guess it's actually time to pull this sucker out and open up the top end.

[yaegerb]

Holy necropost batman, but small update,
Got both side covers off, nothing that alarms me, some slight corrosion and rust on the shifter side, clean as a whistle on the kicker side. Guess it's actually time to pull this sucker out and open up the top end.

Don't forget a manual.

[dman10]

Thanks, Almost forgot, gonna get one now.

[atctim]

Did you open the oil filter cover and see if the oil filter is in backwards? If it is - you will see all the damage up top when you pull it apart.

[dman10]

I did, it didn't appear to backwards, but quite frankly it's been so long long since I removed it I don't remember

[dman10]

Interesting find in the exhaust. In the exhaust ports for the header was a nasty looking goop and the muffler seemed to have fluids in it.

[Mickey Dunlap]

Oil filter put in wrong and starved top end?


That's my first place to start because a lot of the aftermarket oil filters don't fit in right because of a lip on the outer ring makes it so it won't sit right and seal up, plus the other reason is so many people put them in backwards so they get no oil. So that's the first place, then the cam cover is next to see if the cam stuck in the head or you will be able then to see if it dropped a valve, which the do because the stock OEM valve are junk. But chances are like everyone says, the piston is stuck. I had a customer drop one off Tuesday night wanting a Bryan Ditch engine kit put in after seeing it at the races last week and it was full of water and the piston was rusted to the cylinder. Good luck!

[barnett468]

Thanks, Almost forgot, gonna get one now.

You can get a pdf of the original manual at the link below in around 30 seconds.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/



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[6spdls1z28]

Im really interested in what you find wrong in this thing.

[dman10]

Im really interested in what you find wrong in this thing.

I am too lol.
I've got the motor completely unhooked minus 3 of the motor mounts. Waiting for a second set of hands to pull it out. Those suckers are heavy.

[6spdls1z28]

I am too lol.
I've got the motor completely unhooked minus 3 of the motor mounts. Waiting for a second set of hands to pull it out. Those suckers are heavy.

They are very. Reminds me of picking up a bare iron block v8 haha.

[dman10]

Finally got it tore down, as suspected, piston was stuck, full of rust, not surprised with the mystery fluid in the exhaust pipe and the surface rust in the shifter side cover.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170418/441986bd20e6eadf6ea77311e19bb555.jpg
But also found all the cool markings on the motor:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170418/fdc855bd98905db4d1782f4b48f431af.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170418/3709f2df8c1e98b7b473339c86e10f18.jpg


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[yaegerb]

what in the hell happened to that sleeve. You better call John Tice.

[dman10]

what in the hell happened to that sleeve. You better call John Tice.

Our good friend H2O lol.
Guess I'm gonna need his info lol


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[3 Wheel Drive]

Im dealing with a similar problem but on a smaller scale:

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/183394-My-first-Honda!

My odometer shows around 1200 miles, and was last tabbed in 1990. The valves were both closed but there was a lot of crap in the cylinder from a rusted out exhaust.

[barnett468]

Did you get the cylinder off yet?


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[3 Wheel Drive]

Kroil is the #1 rusty nut buster for the oilfield worker in louisiana. With that being said, this advice sounds like a page out of the mechanical engineers bible. Barnett 3:68 "Thou shalt use only Kroil oil" (even as cologne) I'm glad it worked out for you Mil. :D

Tell them Barn.... Preach the good word!

[dman10]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170418/13c96e43913bc6da09e01ac53095e6b7.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170418/713db461436aafcf6de6f336f6eac3a5.jpg


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[dman10]

We also have a couple blued spots on the crank, everything seems smooth and tight though.
I'd take a picture, but I couldn't get a good one in that bad barn lighting.


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[yaegerb]

If you are correct, and it did in fact hydro lock, there is no way the rod bearings are still good IMO. For s and g's grab he rod and pull up and down against the big end bearing. Should be zero up/down play. For a piece of mind I would get the crank rebuilt and get a new sleeve.

[dman10]

I'd love to rebuild it, but I don't have the place or knowledge to split the case.
Here's the piston:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170418/bc92acda04e81c1512c5008beb6409ad.jpg


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[barnett468]

Unless I missed something, imo there is nothing that suggests it needs a new sleeve unless it is pitted too deep to clean up at 1 mm over . I would first remove the rust to get a better idea of just how bad the cylinder is pitted and then go from there . If it is beyond repair, you can get a used cylinder and bore that if it is much more cost effective than getting a new sleeve installed and you are on a budget.

Here's a standard bore one for only $52.00 with the promotional discount plus free shipping and a 30 day return policy if you don't like it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-350X-ATC350X-ATC-350-X-OEM-Engine-Cylinder-Jug-86-1-/132160216065?hash=item1ec55cdc01:g:CGMAAOSwOgdYqlc 1&vxp=mtr

Here's one here for $80.00 plus shipping that looks like it should clean up with a bore with a 30 day return policy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/86-Honda-ATC-350X-Engine-Cylinder-Standard-Bore-81-mm-OEM-Motor-Jug-STD-Barrel-/321160008894

Here's several more.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2053587.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xhonda+350 x+cylinder.TRS0&_nkw=honda+350x+cylinder&_sacat=0


If you want to go to a big bore kit you could call TC Racing and ask them what is available as well.

http://www.tcracingengines.com/




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[dman10]

I've actually got a 85' parts motor, with a cylinder and piston I think that'll work, need to pull it out.


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[yaegerb]

Unless I missed something, imo there is nothing that suggests it needs a new sleeve unless it is pitted too deep to clean up at 1 mm over . I would first remove the rust to get a better idea of just how bad the cylinder is pitted and then go from there . If it is beyond repair, you can get a used cylinder and bore that if it is much more cost effective than getting a new sleeve installed and you are on a budget.

Here's a standard bore one for only $52.00 with the promotional discount plus free shipping and a 30 day return policy if you don't like it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-350X-ATC350X-ATC-350-X-OEM-Engine-Cylinder-Jug-86-1-/132160216065?hash=item1ec55cdc01:g:CGMAAOSwOgdYqlc 1&vxp=mtr

Here's one here for $80.00 plus shipping that looks like it should clean up with a bore with a 30 day return policy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/86-Honda-ATC-350X-Engine-Cylinder-Standard-Bore-81-mm-OEM-Motor-Jug-STD-Barrel-/321160008894

Here's several more.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2053587.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xhonda+350 x+cylinder.TRS0&_nkw=honda+350x+cylinder&_sacat=0


If you want to go to a big bore kit you could call TC Racing and ask them what is available as well.

http://www.tcracingengines.com/




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You must not be looking at the same pictures I am. The sleeve is actually mushroomed in four corners unless its an optical illusion. That is toast.

[barnett468]

You must not be looking at the same pictures I am. The sleeve is actually mushroomed in four corners unless its an optical illusion. That is toast.

How mildly amusingly sarcastic but I that's typical of you . No, I am looking at the photo he posted but can not see enough detail to say it is "toast", however, your computer screen may be bigger than mine, and if you are basing your decision that it needs a sleeve on what you are calling mushroomed areas, imo it would be better to explain that to him and he could then look at that area closely since it will be in 3 dimensions so he can see it far better than we can and make that determination for himself.

Also, even if it has indentations/mushrooms in 4 corners, it in no way automatically means that it is junk . The fact is that if the top ring does not reach the indentations and they are outside of the gasket sealing area, it will be perfectly fine . In fact, there are many engines that have reliefs in the cylinder walls that are put there by the factory to increase air flow by "unshrouding" the intake valve.

Here is a photo I took last week of my stock 1965 396/427 Chevy block . These reliefs extend down into the cylinder around 1/4" below the deck . I have also put these reliefs in some blocks that didn't come with them when I used extremely large valves on them did the same on some that came with extremely large valves like a 1969 BOSS 302 which comes with a massive 2 1/4" valve but the cylinder bore is only 4", however, before adding reliefs to a block that did not come with them I have it sonic checked for thickness first to see how much of a relief I can put in it.

....................... https://images.craigslist.org/00E0E_gYQNu1bSwkD_600x450.jpg



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[dman10]

Old post, but Finally got it going last weekend. Had to have it bored out a bit, and give it a new wesico piston and Barnett friction plates. Loving it. 254099

[Dirtcrasher]

Holy smokes, it runs so good it defies all the gravity laws!!

[Gabriel]

Them stupid 3 wheelers are so dangerous, they'll just flip right over on you. That's they're illegal.


Nice you got it running. I'm getting my feet wet in building some 200's but I hope to get into a 350x someday.

[dman10]

I’m just that skilled of a rider. I can ride it any which way and I don’t even need to be on it.