Copper Head Gasket: 1st Gen Tecate

[christph]

Has anyone used a thin copper head gasket in a 1st generation Tecate? I want to bump up the compression--I want a 1st generation Sprock cool head--but for now I thought I might try a thinner head gasket to achieve similar results. I know they do it with success on 250Rs. I've located a company that makes custom copper head gaskets with various thickness options. I'm thinking thickness will be a matter of trial and error. I'd like to bump up the compression to where I'll need 50/50 or full race gas. I'm not sure if that can be achieved with the gasket alone, although the OEM gasket is pretty thick. I believe .04 or thereabouts is the minimum squish. Anyway, just wondering if anyone's tried this and their results.

[RubberSalt]

I'd look more into getting your squish velocity in order as you bump up that compression. Also(for optimal results), as you increase compression, your exhaust ports may need to be increased in size(wider Is better if possible). The KX250 jug has an exhaust that works great for high comp already. The increase in size is due to the more efficient burn, producing more gases and pressure. More pressure=more port area to breath.

I've started researching the math for this today. I'm going to look into how optimized the 1st gen tecate is for pump gas and if anything else can be squeezed out of it before going to race gas. Casting aluminum is on my list of things to accomplish... Of course, so is owning a CNC lol.

As for clearance, there is a few rules of thumb out there for piston to head. Don't quote me on this, but it may be something like 1mm-1.3mm for 250cc set ups. <- I'd go research squish velocity and squish clearance.

[christph]

At first I was thinking about milling the head but at this point I don't want to do anything that can't be undone. I put a thin copper gasket with my 250R with good results--a lot of people have done it. I was just thinking about doing the same with the Tecate. I'm more into experimentation than calculation. So I'll check the squish with the stock gasket and see if it can be reduced. If there's room to work with, I'll pick a copper gasket that reduces the squish to .04 inches or 1mm. I'm not looking to change the port timing either. I just want the extra grunt you get with higher compression. I'll let you know the results. Here is the company I'm thinking about using: http://www.coppergaskets.us/

[RubberSalt]

Cool. I need one of these made up for my old 2.2 turbo lebaron. Those things are so prone to head gasket failures.

I'll work on math, you work on gasket. I'm sure going that thin would require the race gas mix or e85. Another idea to get more squeeze is a thin base gasket. The lowering of ports will technically lower the RPM for peak power, but that's OK.

I doubt we'll need to worry with 2 much squish. But the quick dirty method is a squish test without a head gasket. The way I check squish clearance is the methods explained here. http://forums.everything2stroke.com/threads/46497-Measuring-Squish .

E85 is an awesome fuel. 85℅ alcohol, 15℅ gas. Cheaper than premium. Poormans race fuel!


Now that I think about it, I've got a 85 T3 that could use a head gasket. If I get a chance this evening, I'll check it's squish clearance. I don't know what type of base gasket it has at the moment, but who ever put it together bolted up a handful of go fast parts.

[DohcBikes]

E85 sucks.

[RubberSalt]

e85 is awesome. crappy filling stations suck. Shelf life sucks. Hygroscopic <- the 3 consistent draw backs.
c85 is awesome. It's VP Racing's consistent version of it.

e85 provides more hp, more torque, more cooling, and it's cleaner. You've got to run about 30% more fuel to reach the stoichiometric ratio. In order to take use of the advantages, you'll need much higher comp and adjust your timing. You'll need even higher compression to take full advantage of the 110 octane race gas.

I havn't had it hurt a single carb. Heck, it didn't even hurt the fuel system on my old 85 lebaron.

[DohcBikes]

Cool. I know the details, but thanks anyway. I've seen it melt a hole in the piston on a vehicle that was supposedly designed for it. E85 sucks.

Great work on the CDI's though! :)

[RubberSalt]

Car must have been running lean or something. And I'm going to back up some on my original statement.


I think if some one is to realistically run pump e85, they need an EFI system with a flex fuel sensor. The variation of quality go be as little as 70% alcohol according to the pump down the street. The c85 should be good in a carbed engine.

But then I have to ask myself... In our rides, why stop at c85 when VP makes more potent fuels...

Damn it dohc. I feel like I'm eating my words. Lol

[DohcBikes]

Car must have been running lean or something. And I'm going to back up some on my original statement.


I think if some one is to realistically run pump e85, they need an EFI system with a flex fuel sensor. The variation of quality go be as little as 70% alcohol according to the pump down the street. The c85 should be good in a carbed engine.

But then I have to ask myself... In our rides, why stop at c85 when VP makes more potent fuels...

Damn it dohc. I feel like I'm eating my words. LolThe vehicle I speak of is flex fuel approved with EFI. And yes, it ran lean and the engine blew up. I can't deny that tons of cars out there run on it, but personal experience is what I base my opinions and advice on, so I cannot recommend using it, especially for a high performance application that a regular guy has a bunch of money into. Like you said, that's why they make race fuel. It's one thing for race teams to use it, they have money to rebuild when they mistakes. Also, I have trouble believing that they aren't just advertising sales for the petro corporations and then running whatever fuel they want to run.

Ethanol is a scam that is meant to keep corn market prices up and create a demand for new vehicles. Seriously, do some research, it's terrible. It damages engines and it certainly isn't clean burning. People need to inform themselves and start refusing this crap. Google "ethanol scam".

"The premise that ethanol could give America the freedom to one day stop importing oil has always been fraudulent. Another fun fact: If we outlawed gasoline and diesel, thereby removing every last car, truck and SUV from our highways—no vehicles anywhere on any road in the country—America would still have to import oil because we would still use more crude than domestic production can supply.
Why is that? Crude oil is also used to make fertilizers, aviation fuel, home heating oil, and many other products. Not to mention polyester suits for car salesmen." -Ed Wallace- Bloomberg

Ethanol is bad science. It is bad for the engines of cars that must use such a gasoline blend. It increases the cost of gasoline and all other corn-based products. It actually increases the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. And it reduces the mileage a car can achieve with pure gasoline.


"Another fact: Though people have thought for centuries that corn is a decent fuel, it took the mandates to force it into cars. Why? Because consumers knew better. Manufacturers knew better. The petroleum industry knew better. Government and the corn industry had a different idea and gave it to us all good and hard."

http://lfb.org/the-amazing-ethanol-scam/

[fabiodriven]

You guys are wayyy the frig off track here, you might want to start a new thread.

But since you guys have already frigged this poor bastage, I remember not long ago watching something very interesting about ethanol and how Brazil uses it. I'd have to see it again but it tells a very, very different story than what you're suggesting Damon. I believe Brazil is huge on ethanol and they had some very good reasons to be as such.


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[DohcBikes]

The thinner head gasket conversation is a short one. Mock em up, try em out, end of story. It's called tuning.

What story am I suggesting?

Fact: Ethanol burns dirty.

Fact: It was MANDATED by government. Which means for any number of reasons, they are essentially FORCING people to consume it. If that doesn't tell you something, nothing will. When something is good, it doesn't need to be forced upon people.

The ethanol industry has been propagated by the intent to keep corn and sugar prices falsely inflated. It affects the entire food supply and has an all inclusive effect on worldwide economics. If we want clean fuel we should be looking to electricity produced by hydromechanical means. But alas, this gives power to the people and fails to line the pockets of the elite, so don't hold your breath.

[fabiodriven]

Easy gunpowder, lol.

Hooray for copper head gaskets!!


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[DohcBikes]

Speaking of copper head and distilled grain alcohol..even a tip o' the cap to illuminati. Coincidence? More than likely.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvaEJzoaYZk

[RubberSalt]

As much as I'd like to debate the pros and cons of ethanal, this isn't he thread to do it. But I've done my research on production as a performance fuel and as a drink lol.

I contacted a guy about a manufacturing copper head gaskets, he wanted $75 for my old car, but I'm sure it's the same cost for the Tecate.

It really is as dohc said. Mock them up, try them out. I may try something like this to help tune the msv of my build. High rpm may need a little less squish.

[cr480r]

Most tecates will have a compromised squish until the piston is corrected.

[86T3]

Thanks for sharing the video DOHC, I never saw it before. I like some of his music and his radio show most of the time but he's an America hating communist. It makes me happy so see how douchey he used to dress.

And you're right on everything about ethanol except for the performance end of it. A lot of guys are building high performance e85 motors because of the cheapness and readily available fuel. You throw a lot of compression and timing at them and them and they do well with it. Plus you don't have to worry about flushing your fuel system every time you park like with straight methanol and it doesn't wash the cylinder walls as bad either.

But anyways, to the original topic, I would cut your head down for mote compression. I'd imagine you could get a 1st gen Tecate head for $10-20 if you want to go back to stock