Rusty Tank - vinegar

[atctim]

I know this has been covered, but after all of these years of reading about it, I finally tried it with remarkable results. My 1985 ATC110 is in fantastic shape, except for the inside of the tank. It is really a horrible thing to do letting your tank sit empty without gas in it. It will draw moisture and rust the inside. I've seen so many tanks like this. So after removing the carb and ultrasonicing it to get it factory clean, and same process with the intake (there was rusty deposits everwhere), I decided to try the old apple cider vinegar trick. 22 hours after filling the tank - presto - no more rust. I'm amazed. Just one more confirmed tank cleaned with vinegar. Now to flush it out and fill it up with gasoline. The 110 lives on!

[schlepp29]

Nice! I gotta 200x tank that needs cleaning. I gotta try this thanks for the info

[RubberSalt]

My dad has been using citrix acid for years with similar results. When i had my 200m, I tried the vinegar, but it went everywhere. So many pin holes! Had to weld and epoxy. <- I only owned an arc welder at the time lol

I went with a JB weld thinned down with acetone. Got it very very running, then sloshed it around the tank until it sealed all the holes. Never leaked when i owned it. Took it to the dunes and all kinds of run stuff.

I've also seen videos of electrolysis being used to remove the rust. It does awesome work took from what i've seen.

[newby200x]

Make sure to rinse with baking soda after the vinegar is out or it will flash rust rapidly

[Joseph Farrow]

Navel Jelly is cheap and works really well. Been using it for years.

http://aandbsupply.com/image/cache/data/60-60100-500x500.jpg

[big specht]

Does the jelly hurt paint?

[bkvette3]

Apple cider vinegar method works great but will also remove some of the galvanizing from the inside of the tank too.

[DohcBikes]

Vineager won't touch most of the tanks I see. I use hydrochloric acid to clean it, then rinse it with phosphoric solution. Works great. My gs550 tank was left 8 years with a half tank of fuel in it. On the inside it was one of the worst condition tanks I'd ever seen and my method stripped it to bare metal. I rebuild lots of abandoned 70's UJM's so I've seen the worst. The hydrochloric will eat aluminum.

[hublake]

Try toilet bowl cleaner "The Works", works great.

[Joseph Farrow]

Does the jelly hurt paint?

You do not want to leave it on a painted surface. It's not going to ruin your paint you just dont want to leave it on it for an extended period of time.

[roonie]

Apple cider vinegar method works great but will also remove some of the galvanizing from the inside of the tank too.

I would think the galvanizing would be the first thing to go as its a plating..correct?

[roonie]

Try toilet bowl cleaner "The Works", works great.

How long would one have to leave the toilet bowl cleaner in for?

[hublake]

Leave it in over night.

[JustEnough]

I use the cheapest vinegar available which is usually white vinegar. I found that it would miss some spots, then I was watching a show on TV about metal plating and saw that they carefully degrease metal parts before an acid bath. I now clean with hot water and detergent first and then another hot water rinse and no longer miss any spots where old gas or grease prevents the vinegar from removing rust.

[Thorpe]

How long would one have to leave the toilet bowl cleaner in for?

Depends how $hitty the tank is!!! (Hahaha.... Get it?!?)

[Scootertrash]

:naughty::lol::beer

You may have to wipe the tank out first?

ETA: Hot water and detergent is a good idea. I just used POR15 in a set of Harley tanks and they say to rinse with hot water and detergent prior to using their tank cleaning solution.

[Rifleman1000]

Phosphoric Acid works great .Its available at Lowes or Home Depot. I forget the percentage but it turns the metal a dark grey color and its very hard to get it to rust again. Just dont leave in in to long and use baking soda to neutralize it .If i remember i left mine in overnite and it hasn't rusted since.

[booblinker]

Muriatic acid($12/ 2 gal at home depot) 50/50 with water. Usually 12-20 hours depending on how rusty. I have done it on 5 tanks now, and had great results every time.

[RUNMEDOWN]

Make sure to rinse with baking soda after the vinegar is out or it will flash rust rapidly

This. One of mine is soaking as we speak, after baking soda I will hit it with red kote.

[RubberSalt]

Has anyone tried the electrolysis method?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4yYF8gSHdA

[barnett468]

I know this has been covered, but after all of these years of reading about it, I finally tried it with remarkable results. My 1985 ATC110 is in fantastic shape, except for the inside of the tank. It is really a horrible thing to do letting your tank sit empty without gas in it. It will draw moisture and rust the inside. I've seen so many tanks like this. So after removing the carb and ultrasonicing it to get it factory clean, and same process with the intake (there was rusty deposits everwhere), I decided to try the old apple cider vinegar trick. 22 hours after filling the tank - presto - no more rust. I'm amazed. Just one more confirmed tank cleaned with vinegar. Now to flush it out and fill it up with gasoline. The 110 lives on!


Unfortunately there is still a fair amount f rust in your tank.

I wrote the following at the request of some people a while back.

DIFFERENT RUST REMOVING METHODS AND THEIR GENERAL EFFECTIVENESS

There are several different ways to remove rust and rusty hardware, however, I will only go into one in detail which is Oxalic acid and it is fairly inexpensive . One of the more common rust removal products on the market is "Evapo Rust", and it costs around $22.00 a gallon and at best is only around 50% as effective as Oxalic acid when the Oxalic acid is mixed at what I refer to as a "Full Strength" ratio of 1 lb of crystals to one gallon of water and it also costs around 4 times as much.

The Oxalic acid mix will remove rust from tools parts, gas tanks and steel rims etc . . It can also be used to de-rust rusty automotive radiators and used as a periodic cooling system flush in cars and trucks . Another fairly effective method for removing rust is by Electrolysis, however, this is a bit more complicated and more of a PITA.

Oxalic acid is in some concrete driveway cleaners and wood bleaches that can sometimes be found at some hardware stores, however, it seems that fewer stores carry it these days, so if you don't find it there, pure Oxalic acid crystals can easily be purchased online, and amazon.com has some of the cheapest prices on it.

The cost to make the solution in maximum strength depends on how much you buy of the product and where you buy it . . If mixed at 1 lb per gallon, the cost per gallon can range from $7.00 to as low as $2.00 . One of the cheapest places to buy it is from amazon.com where you can get for around $7.00 for 1 lb or $15.00 for 5 lbs or $35.00 for 20 lbs.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=oxalic+acid+crystals&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=34210609667&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15446766872994692505&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_6i3ge8f3gs_b


MIX RATIO VS DE-RUSTING SPEED

The more acid you use, the faster it will work . . If you are on a budget and have up to a week before you need the item and it is moderately rusty, you can try mixing 1/4 lb of acid per gallon of water . If the item has light surface rust, it could be clean in as little as 2 days . I had 3ww member 3 Wheel Drive use the full strength ratio on his heavily rusted engine block . He let his block soak for around 5 days, at which point absolutely every single grain of rust was gone, however, it is possible that all the rust was gone slightly sooner.


SEE THE RESULTS

The before and after photos further below are of member 3 Wheel Drive's engine block . Unfortunately, the person he bought the block from had left it outside in on the ground in bad weather for many years . This caused it to rust heavily on the inside as well as the outside . This means the the outside wall of the cylinders was rusting in the water jacket area, and the inside of some, if not all of the oil passages were also rusting, and the rust inside the oil passages would have instantly destroyed the engine upon initial start up had it not been removed.

The oil passages could have been cleared of the loose rust with metal brushes, however, brushes will not remove rust that is still adhered well to the block, especially when it has created small low spots [pits] which the brushes can't easily get into . Even if those passages could be thoroughly cleaned with brushes, it is still impossible to clean everywhere inside the water jackets and he didn't want to build an engine for his car that was rusty inside so he asked me if I could suggest something which is the process I am posting about.


STORAGE AND REUSE OF SOLUTION

Once the solution has been made and used, it can be stored in a container and reused . Airtight containers will prevent evaporation and fumes . If you don't have an airtight container, you can put some type of lid over it even if it is just a piece of wood then try to store it in a ventilated area.


LIFE SPAN OF SOLUTION AND TESTING ITS ACID LEVEL TO EVALUATE ITS EFFECTIVENESS

The solution will not loose effectiveness if it is unused and stored in an airtight container.

The acid level goes down as it removes rust . The more rust it removes, the more the acid level goes down . The lower the acid level, the less effective it becomes so the longer it will take to clean the items, however, as long as the solution is acidic, it will still clean parts, but if the acid level gets low enough, the time frame can go from a few days for heavily rusted parts to a few months etc.

The acid level can be monitored with just litmus paper or an iodine test kit, both of which are available at any pool supply store and some hardware stores if they have a pool department which is usually by the gardening department.

You can test the acid level immediately after you make it so you have a baseline to compare future tests to . As long as the level stays near the starting level, the effectiveness of the solution will remain around the same.


SAFETY

When the acid is mixed at 1 lb per gallon of water, it is strong enough to discolor clothes and possibly put holes in them which would usually appear after washing them . It can also lightly irritate the skin if it gets on it, therefore, you should wear long gloves and maybe the ol' lady's apron when using this stuff.

The most dangerous part of it are the fumes from the mix or the powder that may go airborne when you are pouring it out of the bag, so use it in a well ventilated area and a paper face mask is also suggested . Try to avoid breathing any airborne powder at all costs . The mixed solution does not give off many fumes so it is not very dangerous . It's just not highly advisable to stick your face directly above the surface and start huffin it . The airborne powder can irritate your lungs a little if you breathe in enough of it.


DISPOSING OF SOLUTION

Once the solution is brought to a neutral ph of 7.5 to 8.0, it becomes so harmless that one could drink it, however, a little flavoring would be advised . In its neutral form, it can be poured onto grass or the planter etc, however, if you do this, I would dilute it some with plain water then water the area you pour it in with plain water afterwards to dilute it a little more . Now just in case some "Save The Planet" type people read this and want to start whining about how barnett468 is trying to kill the whales or the blunt nosed lizard etc by telling people they can dump this stuff in their yard, I can assure them that it is not only safe to pour into a yard, it is perfectly legal to do so . Oxalic acid is actually in many plants, some of which some people eat, and the baking soda used to neutralize the acid is used in many food products and the water used to mix with the acid is often consumed by people with only minimal side effects if it came from their faucet.


PRE-CLEANING LOOSE RUST FROM PART

If the part has heavily flaking rust, this process will remove it irregardless of how thick it is, however, it will clean the part much faster if the heavy, loose rust is scraped off first . Since this was an engine block, I had 3 Wheel Drive run a long bottle type brush through all the passages he could first . This included the lifter oil galleys.


WASHING PRIOR TO SOAKING IN RUST REMOVAL SOLUTION

The product I use will not easily remove grease or oil, therefore, it will not easily remove rust from an area that has grease or oil on it if it even removes it at all.

Remove any grease and heavy oil deposits prior to "washing" it . This will reduce the the soaking time.

Some cleaning options are Spic N' Span or pure white Tide clothes washing powder . The Spic N' Span can sometimes be found at Sears or Hardware stores or home paint stores because it is sometimes used to clean walls before they are painted . Do NOT use Tide with green crystals . If you read his thread you will know why.

Mix around 1/4 cup per gallon of warm water and let the part soak for at least 4 hours . If the part is really grimy, let it soak for 24 hours.

Remove part and rinse the bejesus out of it with warm water . The rust remover won't work as well on soapy parts and these products can be difficult to rinse off completely.


PERIODIC INSPECTION OF PROGRESS

The solution may get too murky to see the part, so if it is a small item, you can tie a long piece of any wire to it then place it in the solution then drape the end of the wire over the edge of the container then simply pull the part out whenever you want to check its progress.

If the item is too heavy to do that with, you can try and find another rusty item which could even be an old nail etc then tie the wire to that and inspect it periodically . If both items had a similar amount of rust on then, the item you are de-rusting will be rust free at the same time the test item is.


NEUTRALIZING THE ACID ON THE PARTS

Once the parts are done soaking, they should be dipped in a solution of 1/4 cup of baking soda or soda ash per 1 gallon of water for 5 minutes, then they should be rinsed off and dried quickly . The ol' lady's hair dryer works nicely for this part after they are partially dried with a towel or paper towels first.


NEUTRALIZING THE ACID SOLUTION

This can be done with baking soda or soda ash . The higher the acid content is, the more baking soda it will require to neutralize it . . One method to do this is to mix around 1/4 cup of baking soda with 8 ounces of warm water and pour it into the acid solution, then stir it well, then test the ph level with a litmus strip or iodine swimming pool test kit . Keep adding baking soda mix until the ph is anywhere from 7.5 to 8.0.


DISPOSING OF SOLUTION

Once the solution is brought to a neutral ph of 7.5 to 8.0, it becomes so harmless that one could drink it, however, a little flavoring would be advised . In its neutral form, it can be poured onto grass or the planter etc, however, if you do this, I would dilute it some with plain water then water the area you pour it in with plain water afterwards to dilute it a little more . Now just in case some "Save The Planet" type people read this and want to start whining about how barnett468 is trying to kill the whales or the blunt nosed lizard etc by telling people they can dump this stuff in their yard, I can assure them that it is not only safe to pour in their yard, it is perfectly legal to do so . Oxalic acid is actually in many plants, some of which some people eat, and the baking soda used to neutralize the acid is used in many food products and the water used in if is often consumed by people with only minimal side effects if it came from their faucet.




http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/1972%20340%20Standard%20Bore/Pre%20wash/image_zpslipdwose.jpeg



http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/1972%20340%20Standard%20Bore/image_zps1wjnwg91.jpeg



There was a lot of rust inside the water jackets and around the outside of the cylinders inside the water jackets . . these are areas that no amount of spray washing or bead blasting can get to to clean.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/1972%20340%20Standard%20Bore/image_zpsph7vfvlw.jpeg



Nice and rusty.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/1972%20340%20Standard%20Bore/image_zps58jqqjtb.jpeg



You can see very heavy rust scaling on the cylinder wall thru the rusted out freeze plug . . There was ZERO rust left anywhere when it was done.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/1972%20340%20Standard%20Bore/image_zpsxpw4pamn.jpeg



Rub a bub bub, the blocks in the tub . . This is the acid solution it was placed in after being soaked in detergent in the same tub.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsrhjw3hcq.jpeg



After soaking for a few days, I had him pour the baking soda mix in to neutralize the acid then he poured some solution out so he could see the block and marvel at its 100% rust free beauty.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/image_zpsfm32hmte.jpeg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/image_zpszmq9lkzp.jpeg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/image_zpsid4tgfo2.jpeg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/image_zpshpb8ozss.jpeg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/sevendcuda/image_zpskkkdigxo.jpeg




PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[Dirtcrasher]

^ Fantastic results!! Thank you...

[barnett468]

^ Fantastic results!! Thank you...

You're welcome, glad it was useful info . Nothing like seeing before and after results from something that was really rusty . I also told him how to get the rusted oil galley plugs out of this block before he de-rusted it after he had broken a tool trying to remove them . He originally pm'd me asking how to de-rust his block and asked about some product he had seen that was $20.00 a gallon and totally lame, so that is when I told him how to do this .

Here is a 5 lb bag for only $16.00 with free shipping . Mixed at "Full Strength" that's only $3.20 a gallon vs the lame Evapo Rust and other similar products that cost a whopping $20.00 a gallon and won't even take the rust off my Grandmas rocking chair.

https://www.amazon.com/OXALIC-99-6%25-Crystals-Cleaning--Removal/dp/B0147JPQAI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474514492&sr=8-1&keywords=oxalic+acid



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[RamsesRibb]

Oxalic acid makes plants have a lemon taste. It also causes stones. It is in leafy greens as a natural insect repellent / poison.

Lots of good info in this thread, thanks!

[Scootertrash]

What effect would the Oxalic acid have on an old galvanized stock tank? The tank would be used for soaking some large parts.

[BarnBoy]

Has anyone tried the electrolysis method?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4yYF8gSHdA

THIS is the method to use. I have an old army jerry can that was rusted inside a bunch. I bought 5 gallons of vinegar, left it in a day or two, and it helped a bit, but not real well. It actually rusted it worse in the spots where the vinegar couldn't reach. So that was a waste of money.

Then I read about this electrolysis. I had all the stuff laying around, so I figured why not? I filled can can as full as it would go with water and 1/3 cup of arm and hammer washing soda. I hooked up a 12v battery charger on the 2 amp setting, hooked in a series with a lawn mower battery, then jumper cables to the can with the positive on the sacrificial anode (3/16 rod driven through a hole in a piece of wood, that goes down about 15ish inches into the can) and the ground to the bottom of the can. I could immediately see bubbles coming from the anode and can. I left it in for 15-16 hours, and it got the rust off everywhere. It worked great! All that was left was a little black iron oxide where the rust was. I rinsed it and dumped a little motor oil in and sloshed it around to keep it from flash rusting. This method works WAAYYY better than vinegar, and the same setup can be used on a ATC gas tank. I highly recommend it.

You can see all the junk it got out. And those white bubbles in the 2nd to last pic are it working.

235096235097235098235099235100235101

[RUNMEDOWN]

This. One of mine is soaking as we speak, after baking soda I will hit it with red kote.
Just finished, the Red Kote is nice stuff, basically a red plastic tank inside of my white metal one.

[barnett468]

What effect would the Oxalic acid have on an old galvanized stock tank? The tank would be used for soaking some large parts.

I'm certainly not an authority on this, however, what I do know is that it will eventually eat the galvanizing leaving bare steel which will then be susceptible to rusting although the acid solution will remove any rust that forms . One small concern I would have is the galvanizing then mixing with the acid and increasing the toxicity/danger of the fumes.

One simple way to avoid damage to the galvanization is to line the tub with plastic like a heavy duty trash bag . An additional trash bag could be laid on the bottom after it is lined to reduce the chance of a part with sharp edges cutting through the plastic . Home Depot and Lowes etc also have large sheets and rolls of plastic . Some of it can be found in the paint department.

There is a little info on Galvanized metal and Oxalic acid in the link below.

http://www.gaa.com.au/index.php?page=maintenance-and-cleaning-galvanized-steel



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[350xtrike.rider]

I have to do my 200x tank once a year lol. Rest of the bike is in grest shape just the stupid rusty tank.

[laidout2times]

I use electrolysis a lot on tanks and pipes. It works well. Just washing soda water rebar and a trickle charger. There's a ton of links. Had a send gen ME360 chamber in a tote in the garage for a long time and came out awesome. just need to clean the steel your going to use every so often. The plumbing product sizzle for cleaning out boilers works great too. Any plumbing supply place has it. Just don't get it on you.

[ctk]

I'm gonna try the oxalic method. Does anybody coat the inside of the gas tank after every step is done? I keep my tanks full of gas all the time and use a stabilizer to help with water. How bad will the acid eat the outside paint off? I'm thinking of painting the gas tank so might kill two birds with one stone. Otherwise I'll just fill the gas tank up and not soak the entire tank.

[captainweezy]

Make sure to rinse with baking soda after the vinegar is out or it will flash rust rapidly

Is there a ratio with the baking soda? I am cleaning a few as we speak.