Looking for A/C tech

[fabiodriven]

Air conditioning has always been kind of like black magic to me. I have no idea how it works. It just seems like whenever you need it the most it fails and unless you have a bunch of special tools and spare parts on hand, there ain't shite you're going to do about it.

I had the A/C in my truck evacuated and recharged two nights ago. The A/C has always worked in my truck, but over the last couple years it began to get a little weak, specifically if I was on the highway towing. When you have a 1000 degree turbo under the hood right next to all of your A/C stuff, I would expect some residual heat to bleed over. I wanted to begin to address this issue this year and my first step was to have the refrigerant replaced.

I don't know how to service an A/C, so I brought it to a friend who does it in a shop. He admittedly is not an air conditioning technician, but rather just knows how to operate the machine to service the system. He hooked the machine up to my truck and it was doing it's thing. We got to a point where we were watching an oil catch container to see how much oil came out of the system. It was very little, literally just a few drops. He replaced the refrigerant and then added oil to the system, but he was guessing at how much oil to add. I watched the machine add the oil and it made me nervous because almost nothing came out of the truck, but the machine added probably 2-4 ounces. Again, I know nothing about A/C, but this looked like a lot of oil to me. We started the truck up, A/C was working great, and off I went.

The next day was extremely hot, over 90 degrees, and I had errands to do all day. For the first half of the day the A/C worked fine. Later in the day however, it began having issues and this is completely new, it never did this before. The A/C now cuts out every five minutes or so for about two minutes at a time, then it kicks back on. It's bothering me big time because I'm leaving for Trikefest in a couple of days and the whole reason I had it serviced was to have everything top notch. From experience in other vehicles I expect it to conk out not long from now.

I don't know what went wrong but it wasn't doing this before it was serviced. If there are any experienced A/C techs on here I'd love to hear your opinions. This is really bothering me and I'd love to get it sorted out. Thanks for reading.

[atc007]

You will be able to find the correct amount of refrigerant and ounces of oil required for your specific vehicle on line. Start by checking your main fuse for the AC. Next would be to see if the clutch on your AC pump is engaging,it's the spring loaded thing on the front of your pump. If it's not engaging, something in the system isn't "proving" right ,therefore not letting your pump engage. From their you would need more info and or a pro.

[big specht]

Was it low to begin with? Is your condenser clean ? Mine kind of does the same thing towing. I'm guessing on mine the compressor is worn out if it's original it has 320,000 on it. The last time I had the gauges on mine I couldn't get the pressures where I liked them. That's why I'm leaning towards a new compressor and dryer.

[fabiodriven]

Main fuse is OK bill, it still works it just cuts out. I'm going to try and check the compressor next time it does it to see if it's still engaged but I have a pretty good feeling it's not a problem with the clutch. There is an obvious solution there if it is the clutch however.

I don't know if it was low Specht. When he hooked up the gauges to the system he did comment that the "low side" looked like like the pressure was slightly high but that's all he said. Condenser appears to be in good enough shape and was not an issue before the system was serviced.

[83ATC185]

Check out your blend door actuator motor, it could be that the motor is bad or a linkage is broken allowing the door to flop around as it pleases.

[fabiodriven]

No blend door is fine but good suggestion.

[Arky-X]

I know on some older vehicles I had I would run a straightened coat hanger up the drain tube to be sure it wasn't clogged. Probably not going to fix your issue but easy to eliminate.

[barnett468]

.

Well, I can hopefully help you to some degree because I had a Robinair ac machine and have repaired and charged countless ac systems, but as the saying goes "NO GUARANTEES OR WARRANTEES IMPLIED. :lol:

The first thing I need to know is the year and if it is factory ac.

On the "newer" vehicles, meaning around 80's and newer, there is an electronic pressure switch in the line that senses pressure. If the system is low on freon or the compressor is so bad that it can not build adequate pressure or the expansion valve is bad, this switch will shut the system off. The switch only senses low pressure, not high pressure, therefore, if your system was filled with too much freon or oil causing abnormally high pressure, the switch would not shut it off. In the case of excessively high pressure, the compressor can get damaged and sometimes even lock up solid, this I can definitely guarantee. :lol:

One way to "guestimate" if the system is low is to simply remove the plug connected to this switch then jump the 2 prongs together with a paper clip or short piece of wire or alligator end jumper wire etc. The can be done with the engine on or off and the ac system on or off.

If you turn your ignition switch to the "RUN" position then turn the ac on so that the fan is also then jump the 2 wires together, you should hear the ac clutch make a single click. It may not be very loud so listen closely. Then remove the wire then connect it again to verify the clutch is clicking.

If the clutch is clicking, leave the wires jumped then start the engine then after around 10 seconds, grab the metal portion of both freon lines. One should be very cool and the other should be very warm. You may need to turn the idle up on the engine slightly like to around 1500 rpm to notice a very big difference.

Once you have determined which line is the cold one, do not touch the warm one as it can get hot enough to toast your fingers.

After around 60 seconds, the cold (low pressure) line should be very cold. If the idle is low and the line is not very cold, turn the idle up and check again after another 60 seconds. If it is not very cold after this time your freon is low and/or the compressor is bad and/or the expansion valve is bad.

To check for fairly large leaks, your friend can put the system under vacuum then leave it there for at least 30 minutes. I had to leave one car under vacuum overnight one time the leak was so small. It should not loose any vacuum, if it does, the system has a leak or the ac machine has a leak which mine did at one point which made me think that several ac systems were leaking even when they were not. This displeased me greatly. :lol:



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[fabiodriven]

Fantastic Barnett, thank you. I did some research this morning after I posted and I did read about jumping that low pressure switch. My buddy's going to try to get the truck back in tonight so's we can have a gander at it and I'll certainly take into consideration what you've suggested. Thank you.

[Trike_crazy]

Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to clean off the ac coils behind the grill. Clean the radiator too while you are at it. Lots of dirt, debris and bugs to hold the heat in there. Worth taking a look at.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[fabiodriven]

Yeah that was all just done while the truck was apart. Good suggestion though.

[barnett468]

Fantastic Barnett, thank you. I did some research this morning after I posted and I did read about jumping that low pressure switch. My buddy's going to try to get the truck back in tonight so's we can have a gander at it and I'll certainly take into consideration what you've suggested. Thank you.

No prob, hope the info helps. I can also tell you that you can have a leak that is so small that it is hard to detect under vacuum but will appear under pressure when the ac is on because the vacuum os only a small amount but the pressure will be over 200 psi. These types of leaks are hard to find. You can put flourescent dye in the system then run it for at least 30 minutes but longer is necessary for small leaks. A special gun and glasses are used to check the fittings for the dye leaking out afterwards.

Another way to test it is to simply fill the system with air from a compressor but the compressor should have a water trap on it because water in an ac system will adversely affect its performance. I try to fill them with at least 90 psi with the engine off then listen for a leak. If I can't hear one I then spray soapy water on all the fittings I can see. I sometimes have to remove the tar paper that is wrapped around the expansion valves to check this area but some of the "newer" cars don't have this.

You can sometimes get the air in system by just pressing a rubber tipped, non osha approved nozzle into the charge fitting and squeezing the trigger for around 5 seconds.

I have used the air and soapy water method countless times and have found very small leaks, but if you find what looks like a leak you should recheck it several times to verify it because the soap sometimes bubbles on its own when a leak is not present which will give a false positive. If you find what might be a leak using the soapy water but are uncertain, you can dry the area then just put some straight soap on it with your finger or pour it on. If this bubbles, it is definitely leaking.



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[barnett468]

.
I also would not put any more oil in it unless he gets the 3 or 4 ounces back out that he put in.

If it does have a leak but it is in a place that you can't easily access it, you can use a leak stop which will probably fix it. We had to do this on our Lexus around 5 years ago which had a massive leak and I thought it would just be a temporary fix if it even fixed it at all, plus I just don't like band aids even if some of them do work, and it still blows ice cold and we have driven it several thousand miles since then and use the ac ever time we drive it so I'm just gonna leave it.



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[Outlaw #24]

What Kind of Truck is it?

[jeswinehart]

To me it sounds like it is a tad bit low on freon charge which causes low pressure cut out switch to cut power to compressor. Once pressure builds slightly, circut is complete and compressor kicks in again,,, for awhile.
About every 2 to 3 years I need to add a wee bit of refridgerator case that will be exactly what mine will do,,,, kick on off.

[fabiodriven]

Yous guys is friggin great! What an overwhelming amount of ideas, thank you all so much!

Outlaw it's an (early) 99 F-350 Super Doody with the venerable 7.3 Powerstroke diesel.

[barnett468]

.

Here's some general guidelines for what the pressure in the lines should be with a rotary compressor. They will be different and greater with a piston compressor.

http://rechargeac.com/how-to/ac-system-pressure-chart


Also, if the system is charged with the correct amount of freon and it does not have a massive leak, and there is only around 80 psi of difference between the high side and the low side or less than that, the compressor and/or expansion valve is bad.



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[El Camexican]

Doody

You said Doody!

[big specht]

Don't be a Nancy just roll your windows down. That's a lot cheaper lol

[wonderboy]

I've been googling it trying to find out for sure, but make sure you aren't OVER charged. Many vehicles do have either discrete high and low pressure switches, and some have a pressure sensor (continuous reading). The switches and sensors are there to make sure the compressor isn't running without refrigerant (and thus no lubricating oil) or with too much refrigerant (in which case you could over pressure something).

Since you're A/C was working just fine before, and given that it cut out on you once things got hot, my vote is for an overcharged A/C system.

It is a very basic check to make to measure the high and low side pressures with the system operating. You should be able to find a table that says if the outside ambient temp is X, your high side pressure should be in a particular range, as should your low side pressures.

Like this:
244008

[fabiodriven]

Fantastic replies boys, that's just great. I had the inclination it might be overcharged as well.

[barnett468]

Fantastic replies boys, that's just great. I had the inclination it might be overcharged as well.

Are you suggesting that he didn't look up the amount of freon it takes and he just filled it up until he thought it was fine?

If this is the case, it is a huge no no. I based my reply on the assumption that since he had an ac machine, he knew enough to look up the amount of freon it takes.



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[fabiodriven]

I'm going back to the shop tonight and using all of this fantastic information we'll be able to figure something out I'm sure. I'd just like to check and compare pressures and find where that orifice is if anyone might have an idea. I'm figuring at 17 years old it's most likely going to need a compressor, condenser, evaporator, and probably all the switches. No sense in dicking the dog.

[barnett468]

I'd just like to check and compare pressures and find where that orifice is if anyone might have an idea.

Which "orifice"?



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[fabiodriven]

Well I have my preferences but that's neither here nor there...

Seriously though, I think I may have gotten confused with a thread I was reading in the Super Doody forum in regards to cleaning a screen by an orifice or something along those lines...

[El Camexican]

Remember, there's no such thing as a bad orifice just good ones and great ones.

[fabiodriven]

http://powerstrokehelp.com/PSD_common/ac_basics/2of6.asp

[wonderboy]

If you have the time, and you don't actually figure it out, post up the pressure readings from the high and low sides. Turn the A/C on max cool, fan on high. Post up the outside temp, and the pressures. This alone can tell us a lot. Pressures will fluctuate as the compressor kicks on and off, so report the range (if you can).

Lots of info here about what the pressure gauges are telling you.
http://aircondition.com/tech/questions/82/Troubleshooting-with-Gauges-FAQ

[jeswinehart]

Mine was right on the okay/low line (been 2 years+since I last added a dab) so I gave it a shot.
Did not check discharge air before but afterwards coming out at 38 degree. That will keep me nice + comfy at Trikefest :)
I'll bring this set up along Fabio and we can screw around with it on your ride if you'd like.
Only two things I have done so far in trikefest check list.
A/C checked and raffle trike loaded.

[big specht]

And put a fan in front of the truck to help move some air across the condenser when you guys are charging it

[fabiodriven]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170615/f37ef34dbc510e0689fbf0f14999da85.jpg

High and low pressures are exactly where they should be according to the 65 degree ambient temperature. Low just under 35 psi, high 155.

[El Camexican]

That's the one I was talking about. Is that yours? I can't tell from the picture because I don't have your fingerprints on file, but based on that green sealant crap I'm guessing it is.

[fabiodriven]

That was mine and I'd bet dollars to donuts that was the problem. It's tough to say until it gets hot again, but after we vac-ed it down and recharged the system I'd swear it was blowing colder than it ever has. The pressures were right where they were supposed to be when we originally started so we moved on to the screen. I was delighted to find it blocked because this could potentially be a very easy fix.

Both my buddy John and myself are extremely grateful to all of you for such great input. We both learned a metric ton of things today and that's worth so much to us both, but especially for him because he works on cars every day for a living. This experience has taught us both so much which will translate into his everyday work routine from here forward. For this we thank you all very much!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170615/87201c3cf42f4bdda9e7f6c375441509.jpg

[El Camexican]

I sure hope that's what it was buddy, but I've seen those pulled out that were almost completely blocked in the system still worked. Depending on how much crap you knocked off of it before you took that picture maybe that's all It was? What is that stuff anyway? I'm used to seeing bits of rubber and metal in them.

[fabiodriven]

Don't be a negative Nellie Nico! Let's go with "problem solved" for now. ;)

So the green crud, is that the sealer you were talking about? I don't recall ever putting sealer in this system intentionally, but it could have been in one of the cans I'd added over the years. How can you tell if there is sealer in the system?

[El Camexican]

Actual I believe that's leak detector which appears as neon under a black light when looking for leaks, but I don't know if it comes from the factory like that. So what material do the large chunks in the photo seem to be?

http://novaspecialties.com/dyeproducts/novaflour/r134a-refrigerant-uv-leak-detection-dye/

[fabiodriven]

I'm not sure but it almost looked like the material you would find sealing the top of a bottle. That's all I could figure.

[El Camexican]

http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/ac-clogged-orifice-tube.html

" A clogged orifice tube is typically caused by compressor failure. When this happens, little pieces of metal and aluminum shrapnel will be found in the tube's screen filter. If the filter’s filled with white or brownish debris, the desiccant bag in the accumulator has broken, sending desiccant throughout the system. This restriction will cause high side system pressures. Restrictions result in frost forming around the restricted area."

[fabiodriven]

Boy that would have been a great thing to have known yesterday, lol.

[El Camexican]

Boy that would have been a great thing to have known yesterday, lol.

LMFAO!!! I wasn't holding back info on you!!! :lol:

Was bugging me that I'd never seem that crud in a filter before. Sounds like it should still work for a while. Give us a report after TF.

[fabiodriven]

Well frig it, back to the shop I go! Trikefest departure tomorrow! Thank you Nico!

[Rob Canadian]

Yes the green stuff looks like a sealer. Very common now a days.

Hard to say what happened... Never worked on a orfice tube vehicle but same principal.

On the initial evac and recharge does he know how much came out?

Off hand if it runs for 5 minuites then kicks off for 2 minuites I would think it was over charged myself... Evaporator freezing up a bit but hard to tell without seeing the guages at the time.

[fabiodriven]

Here we go again!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170615/3f0e3f83f612439ef69fcafa6ec592c3.jpg

[El Camexican]

Negative Nico approves this post.

[fabiodriven]

It could have gone better, lol. The new accumulator was cheap and very easy to install and came with all new O-rings. Unfortunately, some of them could have fit a bit better. We had a selection of A/C O-rings to choose from at the shop and we tried swapping them all out multiple times, but it failed the vacuum test every time. We checked and rechecked everything but it wouldn't hold. We did end up putting a charge to it regardless so I'll see what happens, lol. Next lesson will be in leak detection!

[Rob Canadian]

That machine would have told you how much R134A was recovered. If it failed the leak test. Well you have a leak. Guessing it is at what you replaced as you stated the o-rings did not really fit well.

Again. Do you know how much R134A was recovered?

[fabiodriven]

Apologies Rob. The truck calls for 2 lbs 8 ounces. The second night I went back it only recovered two lbs, but the day before that it had passed the leak test. The third night it recovered 2 lbs 6 ounces, then after the accumulator swap was when it failed the leak test. It's been working fine all day today but it's not that hot out and I've only been running it on low. The day it kept cutting out was really hot outside.

[barnett468]

.
As you mentioned, lots of good inf from lots of people. https://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

If it wasn't leaking then it was not shutting off because it was overcharged because it was not overcharged, however, if you do have the fancy new hi pressure cut off switch that someone mentioned, it can still build enough pressure to trip the switch if the expansion valve is stuck in the "closed" position which sounds unlikely based in the info you posted because that valve is not prone to sticking then freeing up then sticking and freeing up again etc. Once it's stuck, it typically remains stuck in my experience.

Also, if you have only one pressure switch, it will be a low pressure switch.



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[fabiodriven]

I was thinking something similar Barnett. To the best of my knowledge it has only one switch.

[barnett468]

I have seen pressures over 300 on both rotary and piston compressors and they didn't lock up but they were only run a short time like that. I don;t know what pressure the high limit switches are set for because I don't have any experience with them but my guess s that it would be at least 250 and more likely closer to the 300 range and you are miles away from either.

If you only have a low pressure switch, it is ossible that it is out of spec but I have never seen one that is.



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[barnett468]

.
OOPS, POST FOR A POST CORRECTION CUZ I NEARLY PASSED OUT FROM LAUGHING SO HARD WHILE READING MISSY DONELAPS LATEST POSTS THAT I MADE A GRAMMATICAL ERROR (NOT TO MENTION THE TYPO).

"but I have never seen one that is."

should read

"but I have never seen one that was."



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[Scootertrash]

This thread really heated up after a somewhat cool start........;)

[Outlaw #24]

Here is your Problem John! take the clutch off the front of the compressor and remove 2 washers from behind it. What is happening is the rpms get going and the clutch won't stay pulled in. That was happening On our 99 f350 and everything checked out fine so a friend that owns a shop told my son to do that and it has no more problem. There were 6 washers and he removed 2. Let me know how it worked!

[fabiodriven]

I was already aware of that, I watched two separate videos about it. Honestly I don't think that's what my problem is but it couldn't hurt to check into it. Thanks for the suggestion! I made it almost all the way to Trikefest with really good A/C.

[barnett468]

.
In my experience, a weak clutch will cycle on and off every minute or less and is typically caused by the mating faces being corroded and/or the brushes being somewhat stuck in the pick up preventing them from making good contact with the clutch.



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[TwiZ]

Do not use air!! I repeat..DO NOT USE AIR!!! Use nitrogen or another type of inert gas. Look around your fittings for oil. Even try tighten them a lil. Kinda hard to tell without seeing it,what's the high pressure,low pressure,pressure while sitting overnight? Freon is always a certain pressure at certain temps. Could be a bad low cut off switch or bad hi cut off switch, partially plugged oriface. Look around compressor and fittings for oil,and 2-4 oz don't sound too unreasonable,but a few drops ain't cool so I'd think it had to go somewhere. Again don't use air to pressure test it. You can also check with the system on a vacuum but that requires freon evac. Wish I could help more but without knowing pressures and visually looking I'm only guessing and can try n point you where to look

[barnett468]

Do not use air!! I repeat..DO NOT USE AIR!!! Use nitrogen or another type of inert gas. Again don't use air to pressure test it.

There is ZERO problem using air if you use a water trap then put the system under vacuum for a while afterwards because the vacuum removes moisture from the system . I have charged over 100 systems and have used air countless times to find leaks and have never had a problem . Yes dry nitrogen is "better" because there is basically zero chance of getting water in the system but that is not something most people have sitting around which is why I did not suggest it.



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[barnett468]

Hey Barn .......... are you KASEY ?

I have no clue what that means. https://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/shrug.gif



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[TwiZ]

Just because you have done it a bunch of times don't make it right,you got lucky,,use some freon,argon, co2,heck you can use propane(excellent refrigerant btw,but not used for obvious reasons,as is ammonia) but risking contamination and also not everyone has access to a vacuum pump. If your paying someone to do it now it cost ya more to evac the system. I've been doing HVAC for 30 years and I highly suggest not using air. Your run of the mill air dryers and traps for air tools won't take out all moisture and is a risk I'm not willing to take. Not saying it won't work but could cost ya one of these times. It's no different if you were to open the system to the atmosphere.Your giving this advise to someone that has little knowledge of refrigeration systems. As a certified HVAC technician I highly oppose testing a system with air...period. If it's not evacuated property and line dryers installed in the system you could kill it. There are leak detection dyes you can use with uv lights that can be purchased at fema Mart or Auto zone a heck of alot cheaper than any part of a AC system. Your a smart guy,I've read alot of your post and most of your advice is stellar, impressive and professional...but this...no...don't use air

[barnett468]

Post #92 in the i want a star too ......e-mail from 007 ?


Well I actually can't read any of the useless crap that Mickey Dunlap copied and posted (nor would I waste my time doing so) cuz in addition to not having an edit button, I am blocked from viewing most photos/images and from changing my profile and from having an avatar and from having a signature (like the one below) cuz I AM THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD! https://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif



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[barnett468]

Just because you have done it a bunch of times don't make it right,you got lucky,

ummm...wrong, I did NOT get "lucky" countless times.



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[TwiZ]

Btw...those leak "fixers" in a can work sometimes,but I've seen em plug orifices more...I'd avoid that temptation lol

[barnett468]

I made it almost all the way to Trikefest with really good A/C.

If your ac stopped working and you can only find one pressure switch, you can jump it as I previously mentioned, and if the compressor clutch engages, the system is low, and if it takes r134, you could recharge it somewhat yourself with a can of freon from any auto parts store or walmart etc. It is simple to do and only takes around 1 minute, and if the leak is slow, it might last until you are nearly back home.



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[TwiZ]

Most do only have a LPCO on them...you can jump it to test it,but it could be doing its job and cutting off on low pressure,there could be a blockage somewhere on the beer can cold side. The HPCO's I've seen have been 300psi.
If you can find 414b hot shot,it's a excellent drop in replacement for R12 and 134 and is compatible with both. This stuff is great,blows colder than 12 and 134.
Is there icing at all on the big line? The one I call beer can cold. That's a good sign it's under charged,and can make the LPCO cycle too

[TwiZ]

Fabio,if you can find out what your pressure is on high and low side while running on hi cool,along with the temperature coming out of the vents and also ambient temperature that could help a lil

[Rob Canadian]

As stated above it cut out when very hot. Some good info on the clutch material wearing. Yes. I have seen that. Also saw the coils on the clutch going open when hot...

I know we have some issues on Toyota's with the "Magnetic Clutch Relays" Not sure if this truck has one(?) I would think it does. Ours are a somewhat generic relay and I swap the horn relay with the relay for the magnetic clutch when the system is not working as a test.

Wish I could help more at this point. Keep cool. :)

[fabiodriven]

Fabio,if you can find out what your pressure is on high and low side while running on hi cool,along with the temperature coming out of the vents and also ambient temperature that could help a lil

I posted all of that a page or two back minus the temperature from the vents.

[fabiodriven]

Nevermind that .......did you bring some hot chicks to TF ? .........will you be sharing ?

I'm working on that and no.

[Scootertrash]

I'm working on that and no.

The one wiener rule?

[Scootertrash]

Nevermind that .......did you bring some hot chicks to TF ? .........will you be sharing ?

Of course, he's bringing enough for everyone!

244185