Price of 85/86 250R ATC nos fenders??

[harleysled]

I'd like to grab a set of these fenders. Even piece by piece. Anyone have any to sell? What is market price for each piece these days? Thx

[ironchop]

I saw a full NOS plastic set on eBay sell for $4500 last year

That was rear fender, front fender, rad covers, those 2 little frame covers, and headlight shell all of it NOS in package.

Last NOS headlight shell by itself I saw on eBay was $850+/- and it might still be up.

Last NOS rear fender alone got $2000+ I would expect the front fender to get $1000

NOS rad covers are still available from Honda distributors. They are about $100 for a pair.

This is the highest I have personally seen those things sell for in the last year. That's not to say better or even worse deals couldn't be had, but the market is hot right now. There's a growing restoration market for shops restoring trikes and some SERIOUS collectors with huge buildings filled large collections numbering over 100 machines in a number of cases. These are all the people you're competing with to score NOS fenders and the asking prices have reflected this.

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[harleysled]

Thanks Ironchop. Good information much appreciated

[christph]

Honda could make so much money if they would just produce ATC and TRX fenders again. I wonder if they have ever un-discontinued a part due to high demand? It would be great if someone knew an insider in the company that could advocate on our behalf.

[harleysled]

I wonder what would happen to machine prices if they did produce those fenders again. Would they go up or down? Mint fendered bikes are worth a lot. Every polished turd of a bike out there would now have nice fenders.

[Shawn Powell]

Honda is the main company who pushed legislation through Congress that they didn’t have to produce parts for vehicles after they were discontinued (model changes ) after 10 years from final production date. That being said, molds are destroyed shortly after that end date. So even if you had an insider those molds are long gone.


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[harleysled]

Honda is the main company who pushed legislation through Congress that they didn’t have to produce parts for vehicles after they were discontinued (model changes ) after 10 years from final production date. That being said, molds are destroyed shortly after that end date. So even if you had an insider those molds are long gone.


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Way to crush our hopes and dreams Shawn lol.

[bkm]

No manufacturer ever produces parts for old machines (ten years or more). Make parts hard to find and force the average person to buy a newer model. If people kept their old stuff running, who would buy new ones?

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[Mosh]

I saw a full NOS plastic set on eBay sell for $4500 last year

That was rear fender, front fender, rad covers, those 2 little frame covers, and headlight shell all of it NOS in package.

Last NOS headlight shell by itself I saw on eBay was $850+/- and it might still be up.

Last NOS rear fender alone got $2000+ I would expect the front fender to get $1000

NOS rad covers are still available from Honda distributors. They are about $100 for a pair.

This is the highest I have personally seen those things sell for in the last year. That's not to say better or even worse deals couldn't be had, but the market is hot right now. There's a growing restoration market for shops restoring trikes and some SERIOUS collectors with huge buildings filled large collections numbering over 100 machines in a number of cases. These are all the people you're competing with to score NOS fenders and the asking prices have reflected this.

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dang I have a new in bag 86 shell, mint lense and NOS with bag headlight guard..may be time to sell

[83ATC185]

Didn't Kawalski do a run of T3 fenders a year or so ago? Or did i dream that up?

Even if Honda did, and they would sell every fender they made, i cant imagine them putting themselves back in the spotlight like that.

[fieldy]

Didn't Kawalski do a run of T3 fenders a year or so ago? Or did i dream that up?

Even if Honda did, and they would sell every fender they made, i cant imagine them putting themselves back in the spotlight like that.

Yes, i bought one from Kawasaki. Seems like they could sell them because they fit a four wheeler some company was making. Not 100% sure on that.

[Dirtcrasher]

^^ Ben Meyer, Joe Swatland and MIK6 all got brand new rear fenders last year; And I too recall it as a "new run", but I could be wrong...


^ I believe I saw OEM Kawasaki bags.

[bkm]

Kawasaki used the 86-87 T3 rear fender on a GNCC factory quad in the 2000's and the part # was still good. Guys started ordering them and since they still had the mold, they started making them again. I have one with a 2015 manufacturing date.

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[ezmoney1979]

Kawasaki used the 86-87 T3 rear fender on a GNCC factory quad in the 2000's and the part # was still good. Guys started ordering them and since they still had the mold, they started making them again. I have one with a 2015 manufacturing date.

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Wow. I did not know that. And this whole time I thought all Tecate information was lost with the departure of the great Barnett465389:beer

[bkm]

Wow. I did not know that. And this whole time I thought all Tecate information was lost with the departure of the great Barnett465389:beerFACT, Barn probably told Kawasaki to keep that part # alive.

I'm sure that barn probably knew this info and I'm just regurgitating his knowledge.

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[bkm]

William Yokely KX250 powered gncc quad with T3 rear fenders. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180105/ac0849ba13d780e22de983ce47e719d5.jpg

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[ironchop]

William Yokely KX250 powered gncc quad with T3 rear fenders. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180105/ac0849ba13d780e22de983ce47e719d5.jpg

Sent from my SM-G900V using TapatalkThat guy lives a couple counties east of me. Bill Balance lives just across the county north of me. I'm in the GNCC Triangle.


Is that a Bob Glidden car in your avatar? (Probably not but it almost looks like a Third front emblem) I grew up close to Bob and CJ Rayburn (was Bob's neighbor)

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[bkm]

That guy lives a couple counties east of me. Bill Balance lives just across the county north of me. I'm in the GNCC Triangle.


Is that a Bob Glidden car in your avatar? I grew up close to Bob and CJ Rayburn (was Bob's neighbor)

Sent from my Z958 using TapatalkYes, Bob Glidden was my racing hero growing up. Sunday mornings with my dad, watching him chop down the tree every round are some of my fondest memories.

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[ironchop]

Yes, Bob Glidden was my racing hero growing up. Sunday mornings with my dad, watching him chop down the tree every round are some of my fondest memories.

Sent from my SM-G900V using TapatalkYeah he lived out in the country between Whiteland and Franklin Indiana. He probably got tired of us pulling up in his driveway and taking pics of the cars when he loaded/unloaded that trailer when we were in highschool during his heyday

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[ironchop]

CJ Rayburn (famous...no, LEGENDARY dirt track racer/builder) lived next door to him.

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[bkm]

Wow, how cool. Did you ever get to meet Bob?

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[christph]

Honda made their ATC fenders for longer than 10 years. I got my last rear fender direct from Honda around 2006 or 07. I have an entire new set for the 3rd generation waiting in boxes for a frame-up restoration.

[bkm]

Honda made their ATC fenders for longer than 10 years. I got my last rear fender direct from Honda around 2006 or 07. I have an entire new set for the 3rd generation waiting in boxes for a frame-up restoration.Is there a manufacturing date on the Honda fenders? I'd be curious just how much longer they were actually making them vs leftover stock taking a while to sell. The 10 years thing isn't written in stone, but I think that's the minimum they have to produce replacement parts. I could be wrong on that though.

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[ironchop]

Wow, how cool. Did you ever get to meet Bob?

Sent from my SM-G900V using TapatalkNope

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[bkm]

Nope

Sent from my Z958 using TapatalkThere was a guy who ground camshafts named Jay Allen (who flaked out and screwed a lot of people over). He worked for Bob back in the 90's and said he was a very private guy. Very few people outside of his circle of trust ever set foot in his garage. Jay said he had a kid who was working for him take photos of his skunk work stuff and sold info to the competition. From that point on it was family only.

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[ironchop]

There was a guy who ground camshafts named Jay Allen (who flaked out and screwed a lot of people over). He worked for Bob back in the 90's and said he was a very private guy. Very few people outside of his circle of trust ever set foot in his garage. Jay said he had a kid who was working for him take photos of his skunk work stuff and sold info to the competition. From that point on it was family only.

Sent from my SM-G900V using TapatalkYeah we were warned not to bother him by other locals and once they (dudes from the garage) ran us off for parking in the road and taking pics of his cars.

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[Shawn Powell]

Is there a manufacturing date on the Honda fenders? I'd be curious just how much longer they were actually making them vs leftover stock taking a while to sell. The 10 years thing isn't written in stone, but I think that's the minimum they have to produce replacement parts. I could be wrong on that though.

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Correct , 10 years from last production date is a minimum from federal law, and I could be wrong on that cause for some reason I think the law is 7 now that my memory is jogged. ( a lot of CTE In there ) but they could make them forever if they choose. If there’s a market manufacturers could make them forever. Check still makes a crate 350 motor hasn’t been in a production vehicle since 2003 in the last gen camaro. ( or whenever they got discontinued) I got OEM Honda parts for my 1987 xl600r up till about 2006. Plastics , electrical stuff , brackets etc. can’t even imagine they were new just old stock.


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[bkm]

Correct , 10 years from last production date is a minimum from federal law, and I could be wrong on that cause for some reason I think the law is 7 now that my memory is jogged. ( a lot of CTE In there ) but they could make them forever if they choose. If there’s a market manufacturers could make them forever. Check still makes a crate 350 motor hasn’t been in a production vehicle since 2003 in the last gen camaro. ( or whenever they got discontinued) I got OEM Honda parts for my 1987 xl600r up till about 2006. Plastics , electrical stuff , brackets etc. can’t even imagine they were new just old stock.


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A lot of parts that are still available for older bikes is because they were used on other newer models as well. I could get fenders for my 86 Cr250 because Honda used the same fenders on different bikes forever.

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[BOB MARLIN]

A plastic injection mold that size( for the rear fenders) would cost over a half million dollars and weigh well over 5 tons. That's why no one has built new ones.

I haven't noticed any on mine (nor have I looked for it), but many times on injection molded parts there is a date code on the non cosmetic side off the part. It's usually round and has a combination of numbers and letters. The letters are alfa numeric for the month. the numbers are for the year.

[BOB MARLIN]

I know someone that has been trying to buy the original molds from Honda for years, they still exist, but they won't sell them because of all the law suits from the ATC.

[ezmoney1979]

I know someone that has been trying to buy the original molds from Honda for years, they still exist, but they won't sell them because of all the law suits from the ATC.

I can't see how any of that could be true. Please elaborate.

[250rAL]

A plastic injection mold that size( for the rear fenders) would cost over a half million dollars and weigh well over 5 tons.
I work in blow molding, not injection, but I wouldn't think the molds are that different. We have parts that are as big as a rear fender but no molds that weigh over a ton. The dollar amount sounds high too. Are you sure about your numbers? Genuinely curious.

[fieldy]

Lets steal the molds from Honda then. Anyone in, 5 tons, 4 guys....

[Arky-X]

CJ Rayburn (famous...no, LEGENDARY dirt track racer/builder) lived next door to him.

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Rayburn is famous if you follow dirt track racing :)
His chassis was the one to run about 10 years ago. I don't know what the hot one is now but it is usually a cyclical thing in dirt late models.

[BOB MARLIN]

I work in blow molding, not injection, but I wouldn't think the molds are that different. We have parts that are as big as a rear fender but no molds that weigh over a ton. The dollar amount sounds high too. Are you sure about your numbers? Genuinely curious.

Blow molding is a completely different process.
I've been building injection molds since 1979. We have molds in our shop right now that are no bigger than 12" x 18" and make parts that are 2" long- those molds cost as much as $200,000 each, and they are made from hardened tool steel-not aluminum like your blow molds are.

Steel weighs .283 pounds per cubic inch. A fender mold (injection mold) would roughly be about 3ft x 3ft x 3ft in size. That calculates to 13,203 pounds, or 6 tons. At $5 a pound for steel that's $66,000 just for raw steel.

Injection molds have to be built to a very close tolerance (+ or _ .0002) in order to function properly. Injection pressure is enormous, thousands of PSI per inch of surface area, and something like fenders have a lot of surface area. That's why they have to be so big and robust just to handle the molding process.

The molding press size would likely be around 1000 ton size, meaning the molding machine that mold would go into would have a clamp pressure of 1000 tons just to keep the mold closed while the plastic was being injected. And that molding machine would be at least half the size of a big rig trailer.

I have built plenty of blow molds in my time also. For the most part they are made of aluminum and only consist of two pieces of aluminum with a cavity machined into them, and the tolerance is wide open. We can build them in a week. Where as an injection mold is typically be any where from 8 to 16 weeks.

Blow molds by nature can't make parts with any sharp corners or precise detail and the plastic choices are limited because the plastic is not melted, its just a balloon of heated plastic positioned into a cavity then air is blown into the balloon until it expands to fill the cavity. There is no injection pressure, or cores or ejector mechanism to deal with. For the most part (not all, but most) blow molds are for disposable one time use type of parts, like juice bottles or milk jugs, not for parts that are part of an assembly that all have to fit together and perform some kind of mechanical function.

[BOB MARLIN]

I can't see how any of that could be true. Please elaborate.

The guy I got my info from owns BDT. I have no way to verify any facts but I have no reason to doubt him. He worked for Honda for years and still has ties to them somehow. I've seen plenty of nos atc 250r parts in his shop that no one else has been able to secure so he must have an in somehow.

[ironchop]

.....I've seen plenty of nos atc 250r parts in his shop that no one else has been able to secure so he must have an in somehow.

He definitely has a better hookup than Barrett's or Partzilla. I've got a handful of NOS parts from Carlos that I couldn't find anywhere else on Earth right now.



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[BOB MARLIN]

I stole this picture of the internet.
As you can see this is an injection mold for a motorcycle fender, which is way, way smaller then a 250r rear fender. That's a pallet jack underneath it holding only one half of it at a time. Pallets are typically 4ft x 4ft, so you can get an idea of how big the mold is just for a skinny little dirt bike fender. Remember you are looking at 2 Halves (cavity and core) that have to be put together. A 250r rear fender mold would make this mold look small.


249101

[ironchop]

Rayburn is famous if you follow dirt track racing :)
His chassis was the one to run about 10 years ago. I don't know what the hot one is now but it is usually a cyclical thing in dirt late models.Yeah that's why I said legendary. I started to say famous but that seemed weak for a guy like Rayburn.

Dirt Track was huge in Indiana when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s so we went to the races alot. Seemed like every small town had a speedway then. I have met Rayburn a few times out and about.

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[christph]

I stole this picture of the internet.
As you can see this is an injection mold for a motorcycle fender, which is way, way smaller then a 250r rear fender. That's a pallet jack underneath it holding only one half of it at a time. Pallets are typically 4ft x 4ft, so you can get an idea of how big the mold is just for a skinny little dirt bike fender. Remember you are looking at 2 Halves (cavity and core) that have to be put together. A 250r rear fender mold would make this mold look small.


249101

Is the mold itself heated at all during the process, or is it just the injected plastic that is heated?

[deathman53]

honda has reproduced parts that they discontinued. Some 10 years ago from immense pressure form honda pilot groups, they started making all the plastics, brackets and related stuff. Most of it was pre-sale stuff and limited amount was sold to the public. A guy who is in the enduro club, was a member of of the groups that got honda to do it. They also got honda to make/supply alot of the motor parts to the certain groups. Service honda(now gone) was able to sell the cr500af due to an agreement with honda to be the sole recipient of complete set of parts for cr500 motors. I don't know what happened, but they stopped doing it and hence service honda said the cr500af cost too much to obtain the motor parts to make it realistic to sell. How BDT can sell discontinued atc/trx parts is he found out from honda who made the parts for them and he contacted them to make the parts for him. From what I hear, most of the parts are very very close, but regarding the transmission parts, its similar to a set of yukon/baldwin gears, while they work and "might" be stronger they aren't the same. Last I knew, he was working on a set of trx250r front calipers for $400, which is cheaper than honda wanted last they were available some 15 years ago. Cal-atv(now gone) had a similar deal with honda to get discontinued parts. BTW.....yukon/baldwin gear sets are made by randy's rack and pinion, last I called them about trx/atc 250r gear sets, they said that there isn't enough interest, but baldwin was talking about a complete set of gears, even kicker gears for the motor.

[ezmoney1979]

The guy I got my info from owns BDT. I have no way to verify any facts but I have no reason to doubt him. He worked for Honda for years and still has ties to them somehow. I've seen plenty of nos atc 250r parts in his shop that no one else has been able to secure so he must have an in somehow.

I guess I was really wondering why Honda would care about 30 year old lawsuits?

[christph]

Honda is not even making the TRX 450R anymore, so making 250R parts--at least the TRX--wouldn't be in direct competition with a current model. I'm wondering if they are going to bring the 450 back, they are very popular on the mx circuit. It seems our sport always goes in cycles. The first golden age was the 1980s, and the second gold age was the 2000s. Maybe sport quads will make a comeback in a few years, although it seems like side-by-sides have taken over. I've been looking at Can-Am's Maverick XRS turbo, but damn they want 27 grand for it.

[BOB MARLIN]

Is the mold itself heated at all during the process, or is it just the injected plastic that is heated?

The mold has chilled water going through it . The plastic comes in hot (300-600 deg), so the mold has to be cooled down or it too becomes the same temp as the plastic causing the plastic to remain melted. The molds are never cold, just cool enough for the plastic to turn back into a solid.

[BOB MARLIN]

I guess I was really wondering why Honda would care about 30 year old lawsuits?

I don't think it's the 30 year old ones they would be worried about. It would be new ones being filed. It sounds far fetched, but I can see how the risk is just not worth the reward.

[Shawn Powell]

I don't think it's the 30 year old ones they would be worried about. It would be new ones being filed. It sounds far fetched, but I can see how the risk is just not worth the reward.

Silly to cause if you look at the percentages of sells vs injuries side by sides are way more dangerous than atcs were. Issue was people letting there 10 year old ride a 250r and going 70mpg or a big red that weighed almost 500lbs when it flipped over on them. Plus the political fire from the Kennedy’s. But I’ll leave that to another post.


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[BOB MARLIN]

I always thought that was the real problem too Shawn. Parents thought it was cool to let there kids go from a 70 to a 250r.

The side x side market fights back also. I don't remember much fighting back when the whole ATC thing was going on. Plus the side x side companies have made some concesions along the way to satisfy some of the law suits that they had. Doors and limiting engine size come to mind.

[Arky-X]

Even if Honda charged outrageous eBay prices for them, I don't see how it would even be a drop in the bucket for them. They would not hire anyone just to make a run of these which would be limited and I doubt manufacturing jobs there leave anyone with down time to make a run of these. If they did it would be a public relations thing out of the kindness of their hearts.

If $ is an issue then Maier is your cheapest route. WIKID Fabrication is on BookFace and his look good and the color selection is impressive but I have no idea how much $ those cost.
If you want NOS, good luck! It can be done with patience, persistence, money, and luck.

[Arky-X]

I always thought that was the real problem too Shawn. Parents thought it was cool to let there kids go from a 70 to a 250r.



Yep, I started on a 1982 Honda 110 when I was 10 (you cold still get hurt on that thing). We always wanted a go cart but got this instead.....and I was thankful for that.
Graduated to a 1985 Big Red......badly wanted a 4 wheeler but they were "too expensive" so we had to "settle" for this instead......and I was thankful for that.
At 15, my brother and I bought a 1985 350X. I remember seeing one of these in a magazine when they came out and my buddies and I were asking, "why would anyone need something that big?" I had no idea of 2 stroke vs 4 stroke at the time and thought cc was the only measurement of how fast a machine was. The 250R had been out for years but our Big Red had as many cc's as those :) Needless to say, bought it and still own it today......and I am thankful for that.