Splitting cases on 350x

[DDQ]

I am about to start splitting the cases on my 350x to see why 2nd gear is slipping. With the motor on the bench I can see that a case has been welded. Will it be safe to reuse these cases or should I buy another set?249797

[mgusciora]

I would buy a new one


~Matt Gusciora

[fabiodriven]

If it looked good to me and didn't leak I'd run it. Definitely check the mating surfaces on a surface plate though.

[DDQ]

Thanks.


I have run into a problem. I have been following the manual for the tear down. I put an impact wrench on the primary gear nut and held the gear with a rag and my hand. The nut spins and spins but will not come off. What is going on?

249800

[fabiodriven]

I can only guess it's stripped. That's bad news.

[DDQ]

I can only guess it's stripped. That's bad news.

I may have messed up. I missed this part in the manual. Can anyone tell me what it means to unsteak the lock washer? The washer behind the nut looks flat.

249801

[fabiodriven]

The lock washer is peened over one or more of the flat surfaces of the nut to prevent the nut from backing off. I don't know how you would have the nut spinning if you didn't move the lock washer out of the way.

Edit- it says to grind the staked lock nut, not lock washer. I'm beyond the point of experience now and someone else will be able to help you.

[DDQ]

There is no part of the washer peeled over the nut. Tje washer is very thick.

249802

[DDQ]

Another pic. 249806

[Shep1970]

Its the nut itself, the outer edge is pushed into the slot on the shaft. Look around yours you’ll see it. Still not good news though if yours is stripped. Spin it (nut) until it lines up w/slot and bend it out a little (small pic or flat driver) 249808
Thats all i got for you (not a 350x guy)

Shep

[DDQ]

Thanks for the pic shep. I was very confused that the manual says to use a drill or grinder. Ill try to knock that dimple out. If the nut still will not come off I guess I will have to cut it off?

[fabiodriven]

I would assume you may have to cut it at this point. Sounds like you may have a new challenge to deal with once you do get it off unfortunately.

[Shep1970]

I’d put the power tools away (do it by hand) hope that the nut stripped and not the shaft. Possibly and i really don’t want to suggest it but “visegrips” with outward pressure while turning “may” catch but ya i dont really want to suggest that...
At this point drill the nut horizontally with the shaft “not near threads” coal chisel and split it
I’ll be watching good luck

Shep

Wait until tomorrow you’ll have better suggestions

[DDQ]

I cut it off and here is what I am looking at. Any chance I can fix this with a die?

249811

[ironchop]

Yeah a die or a thread file would clean that up enough to use

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[DDQ]

Should I test a new nut for the specified torque after I use a die on it befor I go any further? I dont want to get the cases back together and find out it wont hold.

[ironchop]

Should I test a new nut for the specified torque after I use a die on it befor I go any further? I dont want to get the cases back together and find out it wont hold.I know I would because that's just my luck



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[DDQ]

Well there is the problem right there..

249812

[DDQ]

Is there a chance amachine shop can fix it or should I buy a used crank off ebay?

[ezmoney1979]

I think you will be ahead of the game if you just find a new bottom end and save your existing unit for parts

[DDQ]

I measured the threads at 20mm but can anyone tell me the pitch?

[AMK]

I measured the threads at 20mm but can anyone tell me the pitch?

If you dont get it before I get off work I'll get it for you.
The bad thing is though, once the material is gone in those threads a die will only remove more.
Your tightening strength is severely compromised. You can't use normal torque and it may come apart at a very inconvenient time and place.

[DDQ]

Can a machine shop do anything to add material back? I dont see any complete bottom ends on ebay with a claimed working crank and trans.

I do see some cranks for around $60-$80 that are described as 'working' so I may just do that.

[AMK]

A machine shop could do that but the cost might be prohibitive compared to another crank. And they would really have to know what they're doing.

[DDQ]

I am pretty sure this is the die I would need but its half the cost of a used crank.


249813

[ironchop]

Can a machine shop do anything to add material back? I dont see any complete bottom ends on ebay with a claimed working crank and trans.

I do see some cranks for around $60-$80 that are described as 'working' so I may just do that.Yes but you'll score a good used crank for less than the cost of that kind of repair considering how much trouble it is to weld correctly while not affect the hardness of the crank shaft

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[AMK]

As I see it these are your 3 choices...

1) buy that die and rethread what you've got and further compromise its integrity. And revisit this repair with much more cost.

2) have a machine shop turn the old threads off, heat part to build up with Nickel rod. Re-turn stub and rethread. Then re-heat treat to its original hardness. All at $90.00+ per hour.

3) buy a good used crank.

I'd buy a good used crank and be done with it for 30 more years.

[DDQ]

Thanks for the advice. I just made an offer on a crank on ebay.

[DDQ]

Crank is on the way so I will continue the tear down to see what is up with the trans.

[Mickey Dunlap]

Didn't read all the posts but if you didn't already figure it out that nut has backwards threads, it turns right to take it off, not lefty loosey!

[DDQ]

I did a little more work tonight. I got tge flywheel bolt out and it looks like the threads the flywheel puller would screw in to are stripped. I have not ordered a puller yet. What can I do about this?



249854

[DDQ]

Also the idler gear bushing has some play. Does it need replacing?



https://youtu.be/4JboIOJJnps

[ironchop]

I did a little more work tonight. I got tge flywheel bolt out and it looks like the threads the flywheel puller would screw in to are stripped. I have not ordered a puller yet. What can I do about this?



249854WOW.

You must be REALLY aggravated at this point. I know I would be.

A tap that size and type is going to be prohibitively expensive not to mention it will probably have too much lead without cutting it down in order to retap threads that shallow. You could tack weld a nut on the flywheel snout and run a bolt in it to get the flywheel off the crank. Can you fit a claw type puller in there between the case and the edge of the flywheel to get behind it maybe?

That's all I got.

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[DDQ]

WOW.

You must be REALLY aggravated at this point. I know I would be.

A tap that size and type is going to be prohibitively expensive not to mention it will probably have too much lead without cutting it down in order to retap threads that shallow. Those were probably threaded on a lathe originally using a single point thread tool rather than a tap for this reason. You could tack weld a nut on the flywheel snout and run a bolt in it to get the flywheel off the crank. Can you fit a claw type puller in there between the case and the edge of the flywheel to get behind it maybe?

That's all I got.

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I'm not that frustrated. The vodka helps a lot.


I have already ordered a crank so I am not concerned about this one. Can I just cut the flywheel apart with an angle grinder until it falls off the crank?

[ironchop]

I'm not that frustrated. The vodka helps a lot.


I have already ordered a crank so I am not concerned about this one. Can I just cut the flywheel apart with an angle grinder until it falls off the crank?Yeah it's open season since you're replacing both those parts anyway [emoji23][emoji23]



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[Shep1970]

I’m not sure if its 18 or 20mm to pull the flywheel? Maybe the swingarm bolt threads? Just saying you wont need much pressure. Snug a bolt in there if you can and tap the flywheel around the edge gently. Maybe she’ll pop off for you?
Just a thought.
It would be tough to cut the flywheel

Shep

[ironchop]

Maybe heat the snout with a propane or mapp torch if you have one and that may help on top of what Shep said

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[DDQ]

Is part #5 the idler gear bushing I need?


249863

[Shep1970]

I’m going to say yes. It looks just like mine, 249865
And fits with no play at all, hope this helps
Shep

[DDQ]

Thanks shep, Ill order one tonight. I got the flywheel off.



249866

[DDQ]

The cases are split but I only found very slight damage to two gear teeth. Not enough for me to think it was the cause of 2nd gear to slip bad during acceleration. The only other clue I have is that the counter shaft at the front sprocket would slide in and out of the case about 1/2" when the motor was together. The c-clip is in the grove on the other end of that shaft, though.

1) are these two gears damaged enough to need replacing?
2) are the shift forks in good shape?
3) what could have caused the countershaft to have so much side to side movement?


249893
249894


249896

249897

249898
249895

[DDQ]

The forks seem to have a lot of wear on the sides.

249901

[Shep1970]

I believe the manual should have the wear limit on those. Heres a pic to compare yours to 249905 249906 i have a few internal parts for that motor for a future project- need measurements/no problem (these are new take out parts)

Shep

[DDQ]

The manual indicates a tolerance for thickness of the claw but it does not say where to measure the thickness. That is confusing since the fork tapers.

[Shep1970]

The pad at the bottom of the “u” is the wear point.

Shep

[ironchop]

The manual indicates a tolerance for thickness of the claw but it does not say where to measure the thickness. That is confusing since the fork tapers.
What Shep said...

The measurements are meant to be taken at the machined pads, not the cast part

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[DDQ]

Can anyone explain how this diagram works? I am having trouble understanding what the arrows mean. I also can't tell which gears are which based on the diagram because it only shows one side of them and some gears have grooves for the dogs on one side and some have it for both sides.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/4ff2146b1ba046fecc493ca90cdf7203.jpg

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[DDQ]

All three pads are within tolerance. If I am reading the diagram right Im missing at least two washers on the counter shaft but I am still confused about it.

[ironchop]

Those arrows are confusing. You're talking about the arrows that show what order the gears go on the counter and main shafts,
right?

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[ironchop]

C2 and C6 go on the right side of the countershaft at the top. The second row of gears goes on the left side of the countershaft in the order they are listed from right to left according to those arrows

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[Shep1970]

Does this help? 249907 249908 line up all dots, oil passages on the spacers/ collars

Shep

I think me and chop are posting at the same time,

[ironchop]

In other words, the whole second row in that order goes on the left end of the countershaft, inserting the shaft into the right side of that row

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[ironchop]

Third row in that pic is even easier. Take the right end of the mainshaft and insert it through row #3 from the left side of the row

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[DDQ]

Thanks guys! I am going outside now to reassemble and see what parts Im missing.

[ironchop]

Thanks guys! I am going outside now to reassemble and see what parts Im missing.Me and Shep will wait on ya [emoji23][emoji23]

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[Shep1970]

Here’s the other shaft “just in case” dont leave out any washers- 249909
Big jigsaw puzzle

Shep

[DDQ]

Im missing at least 2 thrust washers for sure. But, before I can finish assembling the counter shaft to check everything I ran into trouble.
I can clearly see the groove for the flat splined washer.
However, the splined washer will not go on far enough to spin in that groove and allow the splined lock washer to seat against it. I assume they are supposed to be flat against each other like they are in my hand.
Without them being flush against each other there is not room for the c-clip to fit in its groove after the last gear goes on.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/bf1129b29793f14a75c5984aa10ed391.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/a691b9cb7447b8c4cc3d2aa5e7dc39ca.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/18d843cbf0934c0c12f6da497c39ebf1.jpg

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[ironchop]

Sheps got this one. I've never torn a 350X down that far to get to that set of lock washers

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[DDQ]

I still did not figure out the lock washer and splined washer. The splined washer may be the wrong one.
In this diagram I have indicated FIVE washers I have found to be missing. I supposed that explains the play in the countershaft since 4 of the missing washers belong on it.
Can that also be the cause of the 2nd gear slip?
It will cost about $30 to get these washers from the honda warehouse. Should I buy a complete used trans on ebay and trust it is in working condition?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/010d84ec8e43e5b8bf2e9cac3478e30c.jpg

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[ironchop]

I still did not figure out the lock washer and splined washer. The splined washer may be the wrong one.
In this diagram I have indicated FIVE washers I have found to be missing. I supposed that explains the play in the countershaft since 4 of the missing washers belong on it.
Can that also be the cause of the 2nd gear slip?
It will cost about $30 to get these washers from the honda warehouse. Should I buy a complete used trans on ebay and trust it is in working condition?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/010d84ec8e43e5b8bf2e9cac3478e30c.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using TapatalkYes it could have caused both the 1/2" of movement you said you had on the countershaft AND the gears not engaging correctly. Not properly spaced, those dogs in the side of the gears can't lock together or unlock fully causing all sorts of slippages

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[DDQ]

Ok. So I have to assume all the washers in this assembly are mismatched and put in the wrong place. Since there is no real way to tell which is which I guess the only option is to buy all new washers from honda so that they come in individual bags with part numbers?

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[ironchop]

As far as buying another used trans, my question is what for? The washers or are you needing gears too? If just washers, I'd buy them and spec the rest of my trans parts and if they are within spec, then use them

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[ironchop]

Ok. So I have to assume all the washers in this assembly are mismatched and put in the wrong place. Since there is no real way to tell which is which I guess the only option is to buy all new washers from honda so that they come in individual bags with part numbers?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using TapatalkLet me find out on a parts fiche

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[ironchop]

I still did not figure out the lock washer and splined washer. The splined washer may be the wrong one.
In this diagram I have indicated FIVE washers I have found to be missing. I supposed that explains the play in the countershaft since 4 of the missing washers belong on it.
Can that also be the cause of the 2nd gear slip?
It will cost about $30 to get these washers from the honda warehouse. Should I buy a complete used trans on ebay and trust it is in working condition?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/010d84ec8e43e5b8bf2e9cac3478e30c.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using TapatalkHere ya go....sizes and part numbers

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/f7dfbbdb4c6b75c5cd48bb42940ec5b7.jpg

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[DDQ]

Here ya go....sizes and part numbers

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/f7dfbbdb4c6b75c5cd48bb42940ec5b7.jpg

Sent from my Z958 using TapatalkDo all thrust washers have smooth, round inside surfaces?

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[ironchop]

The sizes like "20mm" are the outside diameter of the washer

Metric to inch conversion is 20mm ÷ 25.4 = 0.787 inches outside diameter.

You can measure the washer ODs and put them in the right order from the fiche picture

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[ironchop]

Do all thrust washers have smooth, round inside surfaces?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using TapatalkYes

Edit: there are thrust washers with splined IDs or round IDs with no splines

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[DDQ]

Yes

Sent from my Z958 using TapatalkIn that case there is at least one additional washer out of place. What a mess.

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[ironchop]

In that case there is at least one additional washer out of place. What a mess.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using TapatalkYeah both the #26 thrust washers in the pic are splined

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[DDQ]

So what is the difference between a splined washer and a thrust washer with splines? How can I tell which is which in my assembly?

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[ironchop]

#28 on the mainshaft are also splined too and could be confused with the splined ones on the countershaft,#26

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[ironchop]

So what is the difference between a splined washer and a thrust washer with splines? How can I tell which is which in my assembly?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using TapatalkBeats me but you can tell the difference by their outside diameter measurements

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[ironchop]

#26 is 25mm OD or almost 1"

#28 are 22mm or .866 (almost 7/8")

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[Shep1970]

The splined washers dont spin, they really just keep the gears from grinding on the c-clips/there spacers also. If that makes sense. Heres a couple more pics but its really hard to see where your at.
It probably would be a good idea to pick up another set of gears to take parts from. Just dont go for the cheap one, be sure to check out the sellers pics carefully. 249910 249912 249913 249914

Was second gear slipping / just not engaging/ popping out of gear when on throttle? Details?
Jeez u guys been busy, i’ll sit back and watch
Shep

[ironchop]

...
It probably would be a good idea to pick up another set of gears to take parts from. Just dont go for the cheap one, be sure to check out the sellers pics carefully.

Was second gear slipping / just not engaging/ popping out of gear when on throttle? Details?
Jeez u guys been busy, i’ll sit back and watch
Shep

Yeah I agree. I wonder what those gear dogs look like and the corresponding windows they lock into if those gears weren't spaced at all correctly.

And no please keep posting. You're doing better than me and you have more experience with these than I do

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[ironchop]

249893
249895

Those gears look damaged in these pics. Especially the second pic. I wouldn't run those two gears for sure

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[Shep1970]

Not much more experiance/ just think how many guys on here have been in theses motors many times over, just sitting back watching the circus... ha:beer:beer

Shep
Yes Replace those chipped gears, i’m getting tired my spelling is getting worse or my fingers are getting fatter....

[ironchop]

Not much more experiance/ just think how many guys on here have been in theses motors many times over, just sitting back watching the circus... ha[emoji481]beer

ShepHahaha....[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]... Yeah they are probably getting a good laugh while I take over the post whore duties

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[Shep1970]

Ddq if i have time tomorrow i’ll line’em up in order they get put together for ya. If you’d like? Looking through this 2”x3” screen is getting tough.

Shep

[DDQ]

That would be great, Shep!

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[Shep1970]

This is what i have, hope it helps — same shaft but 3pics. Its in the order it came apart

249921 249923 249924
———————————————————————————————

Here’s the mainshaft, again in the order it came apart- 249925
Shep

[DDQ]

Thank you so much Shep! I have a meeting tonight but I should be able to compare my setup to yours after.
I ordered this last night.

https://m.ebay.com/itm/1985-1986-Honda-ATC-350X-Transmission-Gears-Assembly-85-86-ATC350X-/122857504145?txnId=1906020484002

[DDQ]

Those pictures are a big help, Shep. Thanks again!

I see what I am missing now and hopefully the used transmission will cone with all of it or at least most of it.

[DDQ]

Is there any way to get this bearing off the old crank without buying a bearing puller?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/a843e45a604eb5bb457fd0989cc0abf0.jpg

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[Dirtcrasher]

I found them easiest to install the 2 shafts in the left case, with the left fork in place, and the dowel loosely inserted. With the top couple gears off the counter shaft you can slide it in as an assembly without it all falling off.

But, It wouldn't let me swing in the shift fork due to the casting; Sp I merely knocked the head off the back of the shift fork, then I could swing it in and finish with the gears going back on after you out the center and RH forks in.

For the thrust washers on the inside of the LH case, just dab grease on that surface of bearing and washer prior to installing the two trans shafts.

Odd to explain that procedure, but you'll know that transmission intimately if you become in depth with them as much as I do.....

[DDQ]

Everything I THOUGHT I needed came in and I am 99% sure the trans and shift forks are in correctly.
HOWEVER, when I was ready to mate the cases I realized I have no dowel pins. I hope a local shop has them.


250194

250195

[DDQ]

Here is where I am at after beeing put back many days due to discovering missing parts.

I see I am missing both bearing stoppers for the shift drum now, which means another week of waiting to get partd from the warehouse.

250524

[DDQ]

Also, this guide plate does not look like tge one in the manual. Is this the correct part for an 85?


250525

[Shep1970]

looks like it/ there the same in both 85/86. Same part# anyway
250526

Shep

[DDQ]

Ok thanks. I ordered a used shift assembly on ebay

This build is nickel and diming me to death.

[DDQ]

.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180222/615ee782736cad69ea212b7ae3270865.jpg

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[DDQ]

I am having trouble getting the shift assembly together. I followed the steps in the manual and have the plungers, springs and pawls on the shifter in the guide plate. I am trying to tighten the bolts to get the pawls inside the drum but even with the grooves in the drum lined up with the pawls, the pawls hit the rim of the drum and will not go inside.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/e11e7b272f404740c21b4211be1a013b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/23f1d7240a932e4c53611840376ab5f7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/fd801a5009691ff29a6bcfe8759171d5.jpg

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[Red Rider]

I assume you tried compressing the ratchet pawls, and then sliding the assembly into the shift drum?

[DDQ]

Shep figured it out. The two holes in the drum shifter for the plunger springs had plungers stuck in them upside down.

[DDQ]

Well, I finished assembling the motor tonight and have a sinking feeling in my stomach. I am 99% sure I did everything correctly but it does not seem to be bench shifting correctly, at all. I cant get it to stay in 1st, it jumps back to neutral. Then when I shift up to 2nd the countershaft still spins freely like its in neutral. Its not until I shift to what should be 3rd that the countershaft stops spinning. Unless anyone has had this happen before I am going to tear it back down and split the cases again.


https://youtu.be/QJtFjFL8Nrc

[DDQ]

Since nobody could help me with that question Ill try another one.
I tore the motor back down but can not get the R shift fork to go low enough to get in line with it's groove and I assembled the trans like the manual said.
Anyone?250828

[DDQ]

Another pic

250829

[ironchop]

Another pic

250829Take the shift fork shaft out of it's hole in the case with the forks still in between the gears where they go then swing the fork knob into the shift drum and wiggle the shift fork shaft back down into the case hole. That's how I did my 250R.

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[DDQ]

Thanks. I think I got it.

250831

[DDQ]

I spotted these cracks in the bearing retainer today during assembly 2.0.
I ordered a new one so I am delayed at least another 4 days.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/6bc7243a4203c84a9a8e0a230d7262ce.jpg

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[DDQ]

Which of these clutch cover gaskets is correct?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/e77fb1ca88e74d65019570861f772d86.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/4b4030598aab9a7097a9be3b640f0646.jpg

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[Shep1970]

The second one, theres a small flat square filter that slides in that area (get one if your missing it)
250928.

#7 250927

Shep

After looking again its odd, looks like one gasket is open on top side of filter other is open at bottom srea of the filter.
Thought i had the answer but i guess i dont, sorry

[DDQ]

Motor is in. I plan to mount the 400ex exhaust and nerf bars this weekend.


251016

[DDQ]

It took about 2 hours to mount the 400ex exhaust. It was very easy. I only made one cut and welded in a 1 5/8" piece of tube for an extension. It is almost ready to try to start.


251068

[DDQ]

First ride!



https://youtu.be/JDZ0GbJOdmA

[DDQ]

Banshee nerf bars are on.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180325/31d32aea9b222cc900340c7263d354af.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180325/7914a2155666c08ae21d6c849804ffe4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180325/b553e0ce96060ec7f1c044043e956251.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180325/d1a09df62fb058fe42077b71e81d0085.jpg

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[Rob Canadian]

Bars look great. Nice work. It sure has come a long way!!!

[DDQ]

Bars look great. Nice work. It sure has come a long way!!!Thanks.
Luckily some knowledgeable guys on facebook let me know that the nerf bars were at a dangerous design for a trike. I modified them to be less likely to dig into the dirt.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180325/e5af1de5a20cbbccb6a45aefa6954ad9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180325/06280d252338c0a45fb4ad4b63bca5cf.jpg

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[Rob Canadian]

Thanks.
Luckily some knowledgeable guys on facebook let me know that the nerf bars were at a dangerous design for a trike. I modified them to be less likely to dig into the dirt.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180325/e5af1de5a20cbbccb6a45aefa6954ad9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180325/06280d252338c0a45fb4ad4b63bca5cf.jpg

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I was thinking about getting some nerf bars for my 200X... PROS and CONS. Depends what terrain you are riding.

[DDQ]

I went on a riding trip this weekend and pjt about an hour of ride time on the 350. Last night I was cruising at able idle speed in 1st gear and the motor locked up. It will still roll in neutral but the kick lever will not go down. Looks like I will be pulling the motor out AGAIN.

[DDQ]

Here is what I found when I removed the head cover. The other bolt is unaccounted for and I am pretty sure I heard it fall into the bottom end when I removed the cam. I shook the motor upside down but it did not fall back out. I am not sure what to do from here. I guess I need to pull the cylinder and the case covers and hope I can see it and get it out? I am guessing the head is ruined. Is it likely the piston hit the valves?


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180408/0416f88f45f44c84568acf6a8f07982e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180408/a2f756b234f29ef742144cb336bd53d4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180408/aff147be8c6cd325ce31c2e7f0623626.jpg

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[shortline10]

Looks like the cam sprocket bolts backed out or at least one did and the other sheared off and caused the catastrophic damage . In most cases if it just jumped timing it wouldn’t do that kind of damage .
Plenty of locktite on those two cam bolts .

[DDQ]

I pulled the head and I can see the other bolt in the bottom end. It looks complete. I am going to napa to try to dind a magnet on a stick.
That head needs to be replaced, right?


251514

[Dirtcrasher]

Bro, you gotta slow down.

You had allot of trouble getting this together, just read the thread. I don't mean that in a condescending manner at all!!

You've gotta take your time and have 100% confidence in your builds so this stuff doesn't happen.

And throw away that Permatex and use the 3bond or similar, not that schit, because next time, you might starve that head of oil and it'll lock up again.

I know you hate when people say to read the manual; But, you had some trouble getting this assembled, I bit my tongue but I didn't know if it would hold together.

Slow down and read that manual a hundred times, will ya?? Again, I do not mean to sound like a penis, I'm just giving you an outsiders view...

[DDQ]

I read the manual dozens of times during the two times I split the cases. For the things the manual was not clear about I posted here and sent you texts, most of which I got no reply to. I proceeded the best I knew how on those issues when I could not get clarification.

Now, for the situation I am in, IF I can get that bolt fished out of the bottom end, can I buy a new cam, sprocket and head and put it back together or do I need to split the cases for a third time?

[ironchop]

...
Now, for the situation I am in, IF I can get that bolt fished out of the bottom end, can I buy a new cam, sprocket and head and put it back together or do I need to split the cases for a third time?

Hard to tell.
1) I agree with shortline10. Looks like a loose cam sprocket bolt backed out
2) I have never seen a cam get destroyed like that with ears broken off.
3) I'll bet $50 those valves got beat when that sprocket came loose which may have also caused the broken cam ears.
4) if #3 is a yes, then your piston is certainly destroyed as well
5) a piston beating on the valves puts stress on the big and little rod end bearings and can put dings in the needles or the journals ruining all that stuff too
6) timing chain will need changed too I'll bet
7) only way you'll know if cases need split or not is if piston beat on the valves and find out where the missing hardware went and how much it tore up roaming around down there by the crank ends

This is just my opinions and not necessarily professional advice. But better safe than sorry

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[DDQ]

I fished out the missing bolt so all hardware is accounted for but it is pretty chewed up.
How can I tell if the piston hit the valves? The piston top and valves look good to me.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180408/204e183736a5a439d6937ba41cdaf2b4.jpg

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[yaegerb]

I don't know that you need to split the cases. I would take a good look at the piston and the crank to make sure there is zero up and down play and minimal side to side. If all that checks they you don't need to split. from the pics, the head doesn't look destroyed. What do the valves look like? Marks on the piston? You may be able to salvage the head. Could you take some pics of the valve side and zoom out on the cam side.

As shortline said. Locktite on cam bolts always. Double check timing before reassembling.

haha...I was writing this as you posted a bottom head shot. Piston didn't hit the valves. any up and down play on the rod?

[DDQ]

Here are more pics. The cam was stuck in the head when the sprocket and chain were loose. I cant really see it but I dont know how it could have been stuck without wearing into the head in a way it should not be.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180408/c551111cf9faceae0384508c9282953f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180408/d73998ba16ea70c6c8e7d01795253f0a.jpg

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[ironchop]

Head looks ok from my house except for that nicked journal

Your valves would be bent if piston hit them and the piston would have dings in it. Shine a flashlight in the intake and the exhaust hole is a quick way and look for light shining thru valve seats. Best way is poor fluid in one side at a time and look for wet spots on the combustion chamber side.

Bent valves don't fully seat and will leak

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[shortline10]

Are you sure the cam wasn’t in a position were it had a valve open ? If so you won’t be able to turn the cam until you released the spring pressure .

[Rob Canadian]

The head is off with the valves still in it. Put the head up right and put some fluid into the ports to see if they are leaking. Quick test. See if the valves are bent.

As you have not had much time running this engine. I am sure there was some noise before this happened. Not sure. Helmet. Exhaust noise. You may have not heard some issues going on.

Could it be possible that the oil filter was in the wrong way. Top end started to seize and caused this(?) Yes. I know the bolts backed out. But to break the ear off and have 1 still in 1 piece.

[DDQ]

The oil filter is in correctly. The motor did start to make noise before this happened. I actually re-checked valve clearance before it happened because I thought it was them ticking and I was not sure if I had been unobservant all day or if it had just started.

[DDQ]

The fluid I put in the ports did not leak through the valves. Here is the top of the piston.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180409/edbb5188f88c8d67bb2bb987db34be61.jpg

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[ironchop]

I just remembered that those 350X timing chains are much more stout than Honda's 200cc design so it's probably ok as long as it looks good. The dinky chains in Honda 200 and 250 OHC engines would stretch much easier. So disregard what I said earlier about replacing that unless it looks nicked up

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[ironchop]

Piston looks clean. You might have gotten lucky.....if it belonged to me, it would have bent valves and maybe even dropped one and punched it thru a piston like my XR250R did once. Just my luck

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[DDQ]

I think I am going to just go ahead and tear it back down to clean everything thoroughly.

[Aulbaugh]

The oil filter is in correctly.

I tend to always double check mine before I put the oil filter cap on. If you were running on OEM oil filter it would have come with instructions to illustrate the direction the oil filter is to be installed as well as the oil fitler's housing is engraved with the directions in which the oil fitler must go. I have a couple of Emgo on stock and those do not have any of the previous mentioned info on them. Here is a picture of the OEM oil filter.

[DDQ]

Yes it has an oem filter with the engine side stamped.

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[DDQ]

Today I have been reassembling the motor. I bought an oem cam off ebay but noticed this marking on it. Is it still safe to use with stock valve springs?

251636

[shortline10]

According to webs site the 180 grind doesn’t require HD springs . Should be a mild upgrade from the stock cam . Good score .

[DDQ]

Awesome, thanks!

[DDQ]

Should I adjust the valves with this web cam the same way and to the same gap the manual says to?

[Dirtcrasher]

No, adjust them to WEBs spec, just give them a call or look it up in their PDF...

[DDQ]

Thanks. I called and they said .004 instead of .003