110 hard cold starts-turned out to be low compression

[longbedGTs]

My 110 is hard to start when cold(20deg F), and I suspect the cold is affecting one of the electrical components. The plug is soaked with gas, and the jets are actually a little smaller than the factory sizes of 85 main and 35 slow. It has a 78 main and 32 slow right now, and the PO put one of those chinese carbs on it. I've moved the needle clip up one notch and is currently in the 2nd position from the top. It was in the 3rd position. That helped greatly with throttle response and now the plug is somewhat of a normal color(was sooty black before), but am still having trouble with starting when cold. It gets flooded easily. Any ideas on what this could be? Does it sound like a weak component causing a weak spark when extremely cold? FWIW, it will start when cold on the first couple pulls, but if it dies for any reason, restarting it is pretty much impossible. It starts just fine when the ambient temperature is warmer...in the 50s or so. Runs and idles nicely too.

Also, side question. '85 110s are all upshift, right? Mine shifts down so I think someone put an 84 motor into this 85 frame at some point.

[shortline10]

I would buy a good used factory carburetor and install a shindy carburetor kit in it instead of fussing with that china crap carburetor .
Other things to check with your symptoms are compression , valve adjustment , make sure your getting a big fat spark at the plug , air gap at the pulse generator , spark plugs foul out on the 110’s easily so a new plug can’t hurt , make sure the plug cap has a good connection at the coil wire , remove 1/4” and reattach .

[DAM shop]

I agree with shortline on the stock 110 carb.. The only up shift 90/110 i am aware of are that some of the us90 were upshift but anything after 74 was all downshift.. Check your motors serial # for the year.

[longbedGTs]

Thanks for the suggestions. The new wave of China carbs didn't exist when I was last in the 3wheeler game 10 years ago, but I've read about the hassles they can give. This one seems to have factory jets though as they both have numbers on them. I've read that the China jets do not? The only thing of that list shortline gave is that I did adjust the valves. They were just a hair too tight, about .002 or so. They're in spec now. I'll take a look at the air gap on the pulse generator as well as install a new spark plug. Need to get a compression tester too.

[DAM shop]

I believe the Chinese carbs must have different passageways also not just different jets it makes for dialing in so much harder.. are you running a stock air box? I have a whole bin full of those new junk carbs that just never performed well at all. Once we went to a stock one all of our problems were solved.

[Ol Deuce]

My '83 is a real turd to start the first time! after the first firing day after day it starts first pull!!! What I have found and I need to change the gasket !!! The gasket at the base of the intake manifold
is not sealing to the head!! It has a dirt ring around the manifold!! May be something to check out !!!!! Short Line is right for what to do!!!

Ol Deuce

[longbedGTs]

I believe the Chinese carbs must have different passageways also not just different jets it makes for dialing in so much harder.. are you running a stock air box? I have a whole bin full of those new junk carbs that just never performed well at all. Once we went to a stock one all of our problems were solved.

Yes, stock air box and metal element inside it but no air filter for now until I get this rich/no start condition solved. My thinking is that the mixture will lean out by running no air filter. It has helped, so this leads me to suspect weak spark or that it's getting too much fuel.

[DAM shop]

Yes, stock air box and metal element inside it but no air filter for now until I get this rich/no start condition solved. My thinking is that the mixture will lean out by running no air filter. It has helped, so this leads me to suspect weak spark or that it's getting too much fuel.

Longbed,
You are way over thinking your problem here.. :confused:
1. you have the wrong carb on it
2. wrong size jets
3. no air filter

check spark at the plug as sortline said, go back to a stock carb with stock size jets, get yourself an air filter. If you still have a starting issue after all that let us know.

[longbedGTs]

Time for an update. Compression came in at 100psi, so I took the top end off. The bore looks good, but there was quite a bit of carbon buildup on the piston and the combustion camber. Also, poured some gas in the CC with the head sitting upside down. Gas leaked out of the intake side at a decent rate. None at all from the exhaust side. Not sure why the intake side only would be leaking. Would you suggest I replace the rings anyway while I'm at it? Zero smoke before, fwiw. What else should I replace while I've got the motor apart this far?

[ironchop]

Time for an update. Compression came in at 100psi, so I took the top end off. The bore looks good, but there was quite a bit of carbon buildup on the piston and the combustion camber. Also, poured some gas in the CC with the head sitting upside down. Gas leaked out of the intake side at a decent rate. None at all from the exhaust side. Not sure why the intake side only would be leaking. Would you suggest I replace the rings anyway while I'm at it? Zero smoke before, fwiw. What else should I replace while I've got the motor apart this far?

Replace those rings no matter what. As they wear, they get thinner and don't seal as well, gap widens, etc. Your compression loss is just as likely to be from the leaky intake valve as it would be from worn rings but just to be sure, I would hone the bore and replace the rings first when I have only 100psi.

Hard to tell what else it needs until you pull the valve that leaks to see why it leaks. It may be bent or just have a tiny amount of carbon buildup on the seating areas to make it leak in which case you just need to clean off the carbon and get some lapping compound and lap the valve in again. I would replace that valve seal too since I put extra stress on it pulling the valve stem through it. That would be the cheap scenario. A bent valve would be the worst case. Springs and tops are likely good still.

Timing chain is something else I like to change when I tear down an unknown topend. They are cheap insurance too. Nothing like skipping time and bending that valve you just lapped in.



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[longbedGTs]

Ok, I'll throw some rings in there and run a hone through it. The intake valve looks to have been hit by an oversize spark plug. There's also no valve stem seal. I'll also get a new timing chain. What about the little rubbery wheel that the timing chain rides on...should that be replaced too? The camshaft looked great as well as all the lobes and journals. This is the first time I've done a top end on one of these, so it's a learning process. Thanks for the help!

[ironchop]

.... What about the little rubbery wheel that the timing chain rides on...should that be replaced too?

Yeah I would replace that too if it looks worn. They are discontinued though I think so you might have trouble locating one but I can't be certain of that either

Part number is 14610-105-691



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[longbedGTs]

Yeah I would replace that too if it looks worn. They are discontinued though I think so you might have trouble locating one but I can't be certain of that either

Part number is 14610-105-691



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Awesome! Just picked up a NOS one for $15 on ebay. The old one has little grooves in it making it almost resemble a sprocket and I wasn't sure if it was suppose to look like that or not. Tomorrow, I'll remove that side cover along with the recoil and whatnot to get it ready for the new timing chain. Hopefully none of those thin bolts will break.

[longbedGTs]

More updates: Got most of the parts to start putting this thing back together, and got curious about the rings and how bad they were compared to the new ones, so I measured the end gaps on the two compression rings.
Old top ring: .034
Old middle ring(thick): .047

New top ring: .013
New middle ring(thick): .014

What's the spec suppose to be anyway? These are genuine Honda rings, so I assume they're correct but not sure. Standard size piston and bore.

[ironchop]

More updates: Got most of the parts to start putting this thing back together, and got curious about the rings and how bad they were compared to the new ones, so I measured the end gaps on the two compression rings.
Old top ring: .034
Old middle ring(thick): .047

New top ring: .013
New middle ring(thick): .014

What's the spec suppose to be anyway? These are genuine Honda rings, so I assume they're correct but not sure. Standard size piston and bore..006 -.014 in inches new

.02 inches is the service limit. Replace them at .02 or bigger gap

Link to a free manual to download....

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

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[longbedGTs]

Well...may have ran into a big problem. When torquing the 4 head nuts on those long studs, one of the studs snapped. The other 3 torqued fine to 15 ft/lbs. Do you think it will be fine to run with 3 studs or do I need to tear this thing back apart and replace the stud? That pretty much finished my day. :(

[ironchop]

Well...may have ran into a big problem. When torquing the 4 head nuts on those long studs, one of the studs snapped. The other 3 torqued fine to 15 ft/lbs. Do you think it will be fine to run with 3 studs or do I need to tear this thing back apart and replace the stud? That pretty much finished my day. :(It snapped at 15lbs? Wow that sucks

Yeah, you're going to need to replace that. You'll most likely end up with a big head gasket leak with only three studs holding.

I'm surprised you didn't have a compression leak before as that stud was probably shot before you got it. If one was bad, the others need looked at too and possibly replaced.



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[longbedGTs]

It snapped at 15lbs? Wow that sucks

Yeah, you're going to need to replace that. You'll most likely end up with a big head gasket leak with only three studs holding.

I'm surprised you didn't have a compression leak before as that stud was probably shot before you got it. If one was bad, the others need looked at too and possibly replaced.



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It didn't even get to 15 ft/lbs. As I was tightening it, it "kept tightening" for way longer than it should have, so I stopped. I thought it was pulling the threads out of the case, but it was apparently twisting itself to death. Dammit. This went from being fun to being a big PITA.

[ironchop]

It didn't even get to 15 ft/lbs. As I was tightening it, it "kept tightening" for way longer than it should have, so I stopped. I thought it was pulling the threads out of the case, but it was apparently twisting itself to death. Dammit. This went from being fun to being a big PITA.Yeah it was already cracked, then.



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[DAM shop]

The mechanical side of it is the fun part isn't it? We put together a motor yesterday, looked on the bench and noticed the oil gear sitting on the bench.. hahahaha

[longbedGTs]

Just got it back apart and there is enough to grab on with some vise grips. It's gonna sit overnight with some penetrant and I'll give it a whirl tomorrow. The bottom right stud(with the cap nut on the end) is in real good shape, but the other two have pretty bad rust at the bottom. Don't know why it never occurred to me to replace these...I stared right at it earlier and thought "that looks bad". Doh! Do you think I will need to get another new headgasket since this one was already squeezed? Also, are there any upgrade studs that are stronger than the thin bolts Honda used? Maybe something stainless?


The mechanical side of it is the fun part isn't it? We put together a motor yesterday, looked on the bench and noticed the oil gear sitting on the bench.. hahahaha

I don't know whether I'd laugh or cry or invent some new cuss words and go back to the house.

[ironchop]

You should be able to reuse that gasket

I'm not sure if anyone makes upgrade bolts.

There are two different studs. Right pair and left pair are different numbers. I looked it up on partzilla to be sure. They are discontinued.
I found these...
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F25 2280596871

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[longbedGTs]

You should be able to reuse that gasket

I'm not sure if anyone makes upgrade bolts.

There are two different studs. Right pair and left pair are different numbers. I looked it up on partzilla to be sure. They are discontinued.
I found these...
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F25 2280596871

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Dude you're awesome. Thanks a ton!

[ironchop]

Dude you're awesome. Thanks a ton!I don't mind. You're trying to fix it right and it sucks that you're almost done when this happened and I'm bored so there ya go

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[longbedGTs]

Well, finally got the beast back to life. Got it right the first attempt and it fired up after a few pulls. Minimal smoke on startup and zero smoke after a little run time. I tried doing a compression test just for curiosity sake and couldn't get an accurate reading because the little rubber tip you press onto the plug hole kept blowing out. The highest reading it would show was approx 149psi. I need to get a screw in fitting to get a better reading. Also replaced the 3 seals on the left case cover as the neutral indicator seal was leaking pretty badly as well as the dipstick o-ring. I'm guessing the crankcase was being pressurized due to the rings not sealing well and letting compression pressurize the crankcase. I let it idle for 20 minutes, then let it cool completely and changed the oil, then took it for a drive around the yard with accel/decel periods. Sound good enough for breaking in the rings? Thanks for all the help!

[mendoAu]

Real good thread. Just when I'm about to tackle the 110 my 84es seems to be struck by the 3wheeler zombie. And this thread hit home about not going half-way with the project. Sure... waiting for parts is no fun and reading threads like this one helps to make a NEED LIST before I start.
Just a P>S. It sure doesn't help getting big red to start when you pull TWO brand new plugs out of the boxes and find out neither is any good!@#^%$#@!

[mendoAu]

Oh, I forgot to add that in some cases head bolts are designed to expand slightly when the head heats up, not to say that's the case in all air cooled engines but just be careful exchanging with stainless, etc.