200ES build

[Gabriel]

I think I've come to the conclusion that the 200ES is about the most perfect ATC ever built.....for me. Shaft drive, dual range, electric start, reverse. Plenty of power but is perfectly at home putin' around.

I finally have a good solid frame, damage repaired. Sandblasted and painted. SO, off we go!

I have two motors and MOST of the parts. If all goes well, I made a trade for another complete one that smokes plus a parts trike I will pick up this weekend. If this one turns out well, i will go all the way through the one I am picking up this weekend and have a pair. One for me and one for the woman. I'll sell my 200E and my 200s Frankenstein build.


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Working on the rear end now. Get it cleaned, painted and serviced.

Is there a trick to getting the engines in/out of this model? It was a miserable SOB to get out compared to my 200s. Even with the rear end removed it's a tight fit. I just KNOW I'm gonna scratch my paint when it comes time to reinstall. It's that ONE bracket too. It would slide out easy were it not for one mounting tab.

[83ATC185]

its been a while since we've had a 200es build around here! I would use alumabrite on all the cast pieces rather than paint them, but that's just a personal preference. Definitely watching this, i have one in a serious state of neglect that needs rebuilding.

[keister]

Shaft drive, dual range, electric start, reverse. Plenty of power but is perfectly at home putin' around.

Can't really argue with that logic.

Keep us posted on the build. The hardtail enthusiasts will be watching.

The only advice I can give you on getting the motor back in is get an extra pair of hands. Two people make the job easier. Three people might be ideal. Put some towels down too.

[Gabriel]

Allballs stem bearings. New brakes, tire and boots. Got it back on the ground. Rear end is dry and loosely installed. Still need brakes in it and fluid. Probably wait till the engine is build as it'll have to come out for the engine install anyway.

Progress. Slow, but progress.

254048

[ps2fixer]

FYI, beware of the cheap china brakes, they wear out nearly instantly in my experience, or the pad material separates. An affordable actual brand name I've ran across a bit is EBC, they are a bit of a harder material but they do last well.

The 200es motor is just a pain to remove always, atleast for me I've never figured out the perfect trick. Just get it out of the mounts, turn sideways and slip out, of course easier said than done.

You'd probably love the 250es/250sx too, if you ever run across those machines. Their downfall was no low range, instead they made first gear "Super Low" and for the most part they kept with that logic ever since (my dad's 2003 foreman 4x4 is the same way).

FYI, you can get new OEM hand grips for cheap, if I remember right the correct OEM part is like $8 each, or you can look up one for a 2006 rincon and use those ones for like $3 each. The only difference is the very end, the OEM one covers the end of the handle bar metal, the newer style is just a straight hole though it (so the end clamp doesn't really clamp it on).

Good luck on the build.

[bkvette3]

Love my '84 200es - first trike I bought - still own it. Good luck with your build.

[Gabriel]

Little more progress this morning.
Making brackets to mount my LED light. Copying the original, I bent 5/16 rod and threaded the top end. Had to machine some hard rubber bushings for the bottom. Used some modified Honda bushings on top with the metal inserts.

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They'll be a pressure fit in the bottom with a nut on either side of the top bushing. This will hold it strong but let it wiggle a little so as not to self destruct.

254101

Cut off the mounting tabs from the supplied bracket and welded them on. MIG welder died and left me with nothing but a stick welder. Hard for me to do tedious small stuff with a stick. BUT, an old man in a machine shop I used to work in once told me, "Son, you ain't gotta be a good welder as long as you're a good grinder."

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Here's what she looks like.

1650 lumen 27w CREE LED.

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[Gabriel]

Started tearing down the engine today.

Learned something. If you look up "S.O.B." in the dictionary, there'll be a picture of the two phillips drive flat head cap screws that hold the oil pump in place. Stripped the head out on one and had a WONDERFUL time with a center punch and a hammer. Two hours later I got them both out. The Japanese fella what installed these must've believed his honor depended on these screws staying in place. Jeez! Have to get some new ones from Fastenal.

[ironchop]

Headlight fab work is pretty sweet.

Buy a set of Japanese Industrial Standard (+) bits or driver and you'll not have another stripped Phillips head again. JIS have different internal + socket angles than mainstream Phillips heads which is why we all were stripping out the Phillips fasteners whole time.

I use this one ALOT and it's fantastic for torquing down or removing stubborn fasteners.....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180823/520a758e0a311dfc905edcc09b57066a.jpg

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[Gabriel]

Not sure they would've come out even with that. I had to use a 1/4" socket on my Ingersoll 1/2" drive impact wrench and a driver bit slipped into the 1/4" socket and I still had to ride it to get them out. I had the engine on a tick towel, on it's side and all my body weight bearing down. The first one finally came out. The second one moved then stripped. I broke the head off two drivers before they moved though. I think Honda used Mjolnir to drive them in.

[ps2fixer]

I'm not sure how they torqued them down, but I've used an impacq screwdriver (type you hit with a hammer), and gave up before they would come loose on a atc110 engine I was working with. I just wanted to take the clutch apart to see exactly how it functioned and get the experience, but dang if I kept going I would have broke the heads off. It seems like they used red loctite on them or something.

[Gabriel]

once, JUST ONCE, I would like to rebuild an engine with an actual REBUILD manual. Not a repair manual, not a service manual. A rebuild manual.
One that read; First page, To start, loosen screw A. Then on the last page it say, to finish, tighten screw A and you're done!

This skipping around is giving me whiplash. I have a Clymer manual and the actual Honda manual. I find them both to have holes in their information. Thankfully, using both they kinda overlap.
The organization is great for repairs otherwise you'd play hell ever finding what you need but it sucks for a start to finish job.


Ok, I'm done whining now.

[ps2fixer]

I think they write the guides fairly vague since they expect the person using the repair manual to have schooling/training, more details = more cost for writing. Long books generally cost more to produce/sell as well. Just my guess on the setup, I've never done an actual rebuild on an engine, but I've cracked a couple cases open to check on the transmission gears and such. Don't think I've ever followed a guide, but all my life growing up I've followed that process of doing it by eye/on the fly.

I agree that they could be improved on, like modern guides on forums that are made by completely random people use better photos to show bolt/screw locations, with circles, count of them etc.

Just for an example, I'm pretty sure anyone that has the guts to follow this guide could do the job. I've done the job something like 5 times at past job (flaw with that printer model). The first time that issue showed up, it took another tech without the guide over 12 hours to figure it out and get it apart. With the guide first time I think I did it in 5 hours start to finish. The last one I did I was down to 2.5 hours from the experience. I think HP service techs are paid 3 hours for the job if I recall correctly. Sadly, there isn't even a guide from HP on this matter that I could find to compare it.
http://www.lbrty.com/tech/articles/4200/4345_swingplate.pdf

That guide has a lot of info crammed in a little area, I don't see why more mechanic service/repair manuals use that style of format.

I think there is such a thing as a engine rebuild manual, but you have to step up into cars/trucks etc for them to exist.

[Gabriel]

I'm down to just the transmission and main case halves now. Took the sub-transmission apart and reassembled it several times until I could do it without the book. I will certainly need/use the book for final assembly but at least I somewhat get what's going on.
Trying to learn, not just rebuild this thing. Each piece gets attention, cleaned and the exterior parts painted. NOT following factory paint scheme. Pics once I have something worth posting.

The only thing I will not be tearing down is the rod/crank, as it is in great shape and beyond my ability & the 90 degree output assembly. I can clean and paint that without taking it apart and there's almost no backlash in it and the output shaft seal is in good shape. Hope i don't regret not replacing it but it doesn't appear to come in the gasket set I ordered. If fact, none of the actual seals come in it. O rings and gaskets only. Thankfully I have't run into any damaged seals yet and the machine didn't have a single leak beforehand. Even the inside of the driveshaft enclosure was moderately clean.

If this is a success it may very wel be THE most complex piece of machinery I've ever rebuilt. It sure makes a small block chevrolet look like a 5hp Briggs. LOL!

[ps2fixer]

That would be because what you're working on is the small block chevy + a manual transmission in one housing =). More or less the same thing, just a majorly different design. Really though, look at an atv engine for a USA atv like a can-am, it's basically a snowmobile belt clutch setup. Not many are actual shiftable gears like the Jap engines. Good news is, once you figure out one Honda engine, you have more or less a basic understanding for all Jap atv engines. 2 stroke is a little bit different, but not a super major difference.

Generally working on transmissions scares a lot of people, so props to you for going that far.

If I recall correctly, the output 90 degree shaft is sealed with an o-ring, shouldn't be too hard to find one, or buy it from Honda to be sure of no leaks since you're going though the whole process. If you bought a full engine gasket kit, it should have all those o-rings I'd think. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of that output shaft failing, maybe the spines going bad for the drive shaft, but generally the rear end goes bad long before that happens. They are fairly easy to find on ebay last I checked too, so not a major problem, and it's possible to change it without fully taking it apart again, just tricky to keep all the washers from sliding out inside, there's posts/threads about it so I won't go into detail.

I'm kind of interested in what paint setup you're going with. Stock is a metallic gray, the 250sx was like a gloss black. I like the look of the 350x which is the same color as the 250sx, but the edges of the fins are sanded down to be bare metal. I think I've seen people polish the metal too for a pretty nice chrome like look.

[Gabriel]

All parts are disassembled. All the engine cases are cleaned and painted. Pain is drying on the main case halves right now.


I was actually amused by how simple the main transmission is. Now, I'm not sure if that's because it IS simple OR the two days I spent disassembling/assembling (multiple times) the sub-transmission gave me a little better understanding. Either way, I have another 200ES I plan to restore when this one is done. The intimidation level has plummeted. Still have about 2.5 light years to go before I reach expert but it's not as daunting as I feared.

Just ordered some HondaBond 4 and as soon as my gaskets are here, bottom assembly begins. I'll get a pic up as soon as the main halves are assembled.

[ps2fixer]

Nice work. pretty such most of the jap style transmissions for motorcycles and atvs are the same basic design. Automotive world transmissions are pretty similar too, just they have some brass synchros and such for a stick, automatics are a whole different ball game.

Just for giggles, here's a Toyota R series (like R150F) manual 5 speed transmission from a mid 80's pickup. Similar design in principal, it's just top shifted like most automotive transmissions, and the 3 shafts are sorted out a little different. The input and output shaft are located on the same pane but don't actually connect, the 2nd pane locks one side of the shaft into a gear on each end, or something along those lines, been a while since I played with one. Of course everything is supersized to handle 300hp+ vs 15hp.

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/131-0809-1986-toyota-pickup-r-series-transmission/photo-07.html

Things make a lot more sense when you can get your hands on it and play around and actually see what's going on. I think that's why automotive repair is such a common pass time for a lot of people, the basics are really not that hard, just takes some time to get experience. Schooling helps since some jobs should be done a certain way that isn't obvious, like brake jobs, the sliders should be cleaned up and lubed/anti rust coated with something like anti-seize. Same goes for the wheel mounting surface. Very few people actually do it though, even mechanic shops. My dad's a mechanic so I grew up around this type of stuff, ATV's are just a pass time for me.

If you enjoy this kind of work, might try to look into small engine repair and such. I've heard, atleast in my area, there's quite a large demand for that. Automotive repair is flooded and pay isn't that great, tons of special tools needed etc, but small engines are so much simpler since less special tools, and overall they are running old designs with a touch of modern EFI, ECU etc. Personally I'd say to specialize in Honda or a Jap brand, but it's just because I prefer them, main stream brands would be better "job security". I think in general people are willing to spend more on a Honda to fix it up than say a Toro, so I guess it might balance out a bit.

Anyway, I'm ready for photos of the progress =).

[Gabriel]

If you enjoy this kind of work, might try to look into small engine repair and such. I've heard, atleast in my area, there's quite a large demand for that..

I do enjoy it but would NEVER do it for others. Selfish SOB. LOL!!!! Seriously though, I get to work on my projects at work, in between customers. People see me working on stuff and ask all the time. I politely refuse. I fix tires and nothing else.
Reasoning: If it's mine, I don't HAVE to fix it. If it belongs to someone else, I am bound by agreement to fix it and care for it. My personal belongings can be fixed at my own pace. If I get tired of it I can put it away. If I lose my patience and wish to be rid of it, I can break out the sledge hammer.....that's happened more than once. In fact, it almost happened today with the recoil starter spring. I came up with a piece of 2x12 and some 90 degree bent nails to make a winding fixture and used a pair on needle nose vice grips to hold it while I put it in, so all ended well, but I would have embarrassed a seasoned sailor with the language involved in the process.

[ps2fixer]

To be honest, it sounds like your personality is like most mechanics including my dad. I had the short temper till 7th grade, not sure what happened but I became super laid back and it wasn't drug related in any way. I get frustrated but it never gets out of hand except in very extreme cases.

Another option could be start your own business in small engine repair, I think there's some sort of cert or license for it, my dad's slowly working on that route because he had a tree fall on him and his shoulder was dislocated so bad that he lost a ton of strength and can over work it really easy now, so breaking loose big rusted up bolts he can't do every day anymore. If you're your own business, you work on your terms, if something is beyond what you want to do, you can refuse the job, or attempt it and explain the situation to the customer and probably not charge them for the work (atleast that's what I've done in the past). I have to turn down wire harness jobs somewhat often, either the harness is too complex and costs would be high, or there's connectors I haven't sourced yet if they are even made any more. Of course online vs in person is a little different.

Doing what you love as a job can be great, but it can be a curse too if it's also your pass time. It also tests just how much you love the work when you're doing it 8+ hours a day. I love working on computers, programming, repair, building, etc. My very first job was directly in my "dream job" of a workstation tech which involved repairing printers too. I did it for 5 years and still did it at home and on the side. Only changed job for higher pay, which ended up being a crappy company, and chose to go self employed instead of trying to get my old job back. Been loving the freedom, just the income/work isn't steady. It picks up about time time of year till spring though. Because of that effect, I'm looking to get more summer time hobbies, working on saving up for a drum set to mess around with and prepping a fairly large garden area. Just recently upgraded my sound system for the house to support the electric drum set I'm going after, so far loving 2 channel + sub to fill in the lows (not boom boom boom). Kind of funny, I have more money in the sound system that what the drums cost new and I'm going for a used set =D.

[Gabriel]

Okay, here's the engine so far.


254274




I am NOT happy. I ordered some Hondabond because everyone swears it's great. Ohh HondaBonda is the best! This s*** sucks!
It dries ENTIRELY too fast for my assembly speed. Worse than that, it's stringy! It gets on everything. I used a tiny brush to lay thin film and had to fight it the whole way to keep thin strands from hitting the paint. I don't know WHAT I'm going to do about the seams. I can't fan paint back over the wrinkle black finish, it'll NEVER match. The gray I can fix but the black.....Grrrr! I wish I had used my permatex aviation sealer instead.

What a waste of weeks worth of work cleaning and painting to have it look like a quadriplegic monkey assembled it. Looks like a toddler got in there with some Elmer's glue.

Oh well. Moving on.

[ps2fixer]

Never had experience with Hondabond personally, but it sounds just like the special super expensive sealer for the base gasket on chain saws that people recommended, hardens so fast you have like 15-30 seconds max to apply + assemble. My dad got tired of fighting it and went to the Gray RTV, and it's never caused any problems on his ported Dolmar/Mikita chainsaws.

The engine gasket kit didn't come with gaskets for the transfer case? Pretty sure every seal-able surface is either a gasket or o-ring except the valve cover, but I could be wrong. I like gaskets because they set the width correctly, infact that's why the sealer is used on ported chainsaws, it's something like 30 thousands of an inch thinner than a normal base gasket, so it ups the compression, but port timing is changed if you don't port it right. I'd make sure everything spins freely inside the transfercase, I'd assume Honda would design the pins long enough to stop from binding/pinching the gears inside. Just hate to have you get it all assembled and find out oh crap there's scraping noises in the transmission/transfercase.

Anyway, silver + black looks good. Red bolts I'd say is the uniq part of the paint scheme but it's not bad. I think I've seen another engine builder do a similar setup with all silver or polished cases with red bolts.

[Gabriel]

Yeah, everything is free and it shifts through all the gears smoothly. I do a complete test assembly before I do it for real.

Funny the picture looks silver. The color is Duplicolor Cast Iron Gray.


The rest of the engine is getting assembled with the Aviation gasket maker I know and have used for years.

[Gabriel]

Wiring is pretty much at it's end stage.

Every wire was checked 3 separate times for damage and continuity then labeled with a number. Corresponding number attached to it's connection as well. Then I made a chart in the memo section of my manual; number-starting point and destination. Every wire was then checked by my wife for the proper color. This should eliminate ANY future issues I may have. Meaningless work for most of you but for any of you that are colorblind (red/green deficient) it's time WELL spent.

Since I will not have high/low beam on my new LED headlight, I soldered a wire to the high beam lead and ran it through the harness to the rear. I will pick up ground at the tail light harness. When finished, I will have headlight ON with low beam for a 9 LED lamp and a separate 3 LED rear lamp that will be ON when the high beam switch is on. I was going to route it through a relay, activated by the reverse switch but opted for this instead.

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***Special thanks to ps2fixer for helping me along the way. This guy knows his stuff and proved invaluable to this wiring idiot. Thanks buddy!!!***

[ps2fixer]

FYI, for the tail light, the brown wire going to the back is powered when the headlights are on + low or hi beam. That's assume the wire is good etc yet.

Also the main power and ground wires generally splice out in several locations in the harness, but if I remember right I sent you a wire diagram to follow (good spot to mark the numbers I'd think).

Nice thinking ahead to deal with reading wire colors, I'm not sure if I could do what I do if I was color blind in any form. If I recall correctly Semi trucks use a similar style of wire marking where wires are all white and printed on them is a number to identify it, my dad worked a little around them, but he mainly works on cars/trucks.

Just saw the special thanks, no problem at all. I try to help people when it's wiring related, even if they don't end up being a customer, it's still good for the business and I enjoy helping people anyway.

I've had an idea on the back burner for ages for a wiring help type of site for these 3 wheelers (and possibly atvs too), just haven't pushed forward with the idea. Basically I'd recreate the wire diagrams based on Honda's service manuals, and include pin outs and if I can try to make it match the layout of the harness instead of whatever is easiest to print like the shop manuals use. I've done these layouts a little for my templates for making reproductions, but wires tend to cross other wires quite a lot yet which can be a little hard to display with out making it confusing. A side effect of this type of layout, could add the service specs for the different devices and such on the same page as a one spot to check basically anything. Anyway like I said it's more of an idea atm, haven't really thought out the whole layout and such yet.

[Gabriel]

FYI, for the tail light, the brown wire going to the back is powered when the headlights are on + low or hi beam. That's assume the wire is good etc yet.

.

I noticed the rear harness had a female end that accepts TWO male ends but the tail light only requires one. I will feed the light with the hot wire I added to the harness and pick up ground by soldering a male end on the LED and plugging it into the unused ground in the original harness. Not junk rigging a ground.

[ps2fixer]

Yea that's what I was talking about, seems most Hondas have an extra plug for adding rear lights. Even a atc350x has them, it also has extra power near the neck for an aftermarket speedometer back light.

[Gabriel]

Finally got some new shoes on the old gal. Being able to move it easily is a big step forward.

22x11.00-8 Deestone 930 up front
22x11.00-9 Deestone 930 out back.



254349

[ironchop]

Holy sh*t!

A hubcap collection!

You dont see that anymore [emoji16][emoji16]

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[Gabriel]

Yeah, those aren't a drop in the bucket to what my father in law has here. Not sure if you can make it out in the pic but theres several DeSoto hubcaps. Some Chrysler too.

[ps2fixer]

Wonder how many kids of today thinks you drilled holes in the hub caps to hang them =D. Do you have a target of what hub caps you like (like 80's Chrysler for example), or just any ones you like to look at? I might have some Jap hub caps around. The two Toyota pickup ones I had I sold ages ago for fairly good money compared to what I expected, around $50 for 2 + shipping. I have a 82 or 83 Mazda Sundowner, can't recall if it has hub caps or not. I know I have some 14in toyota pickup beauty rings with center caps around. My dad might have some 70's era stuff like Oldsmobile Cutlass stuff. Now that I think if it, I have some center caps from Chevy or Buick too. Used to scrap a lot of cars, so I've gotten a bit of that type of stuff I wouldn't just let get melted down.

Similar thread, my Grandpa had basically a license plate collection, except 90% of them was his own personal ones he actually used lol. He had me sell them on ebay because they had a bit of value and he could use the money. I've since bought a box of them from an auction, just haven't listed them for sale, mainly 70-80s era from my memory, my grandpa's were late 40s and up.

Wasn't trying to get off topic or anything lol, progress is always good. I've had machines with those same tires and they don't do too bad. There's ones that look very similar but the center tread is straight and they are a very hard/stiff tire and can have unexpected grip on a 3 wheeler. The only time I've ever got bucked off a 3 wheeler is from that tire I mentioned on a 350x, doing a donut in the sand, once it gripped it wheelied straight up and I was in shock and jumped off to not have the machine land on me. It didn't flip over so no harm, but my tail bone didn't feel too good for a couple days. I ride hard do that kind of riding is what I've done for 18 or so years and I generally use grippy tires. My current tires are so grippy that wheelies in the sand is really easy, but I can do donuts all day with no unexpected results. The 200es doesn't exactly have the power for the tires to be an issue, atleast mine didn't, I could't "drive" the machine around corners fast by giving it more gas to kick the back end out in sand like the 350x.

Added photos to show what I'm talking about, yes two different machine, the pretty white one I bought with those tires, but it needs a timing chain job so haven't rode it and ended up swapping the tires and like their grip in most situations. The red machine was a pile of junk when I got it, new used engine and a few parts it really needed and it's a blast to ride, still need a ton of stuff like rear brakes, front wheel bearings, steering stem bearings, etc. Nothing super huge, just a ton of little things besides the plastics being broken up some which I don't care much about, it's my rider and I ride it hard and have a blast with it.

[Gabriel]

Sweet! 350x is my unicorn.

We have hubcaps around here from all over. I think the oldest is from 1927 Plymouth. All the rafters in the shop are covered in license plates. Several from all 50 plus some others. Manitoba, Nova Scotia, one from the 50's that says US Forces West Germany. Oldest plate we have is a 1923 Kentucky. That's a real oddity because there's places in rural Kentucky, those ole boys don't buy tags NOW. For a man to not only own an automobile but BUY TAGS for it in 1923...That guy had to be fairly wealthy. 1923, most of Kentucky and here in TN too, were still riding horse and buggy. Wish it could talk, no telling what stories it could tell.



As for the tires, they were so far beyond cheap, I couldn't afford NOT to run them.
The 22x11.00-8 front tire was $37 with a tube.
The 22x11.00-9 rears were free. They were in the loft where we buy tires (warehouse) I been pestering them to price them for a month. They could never find them in inventory. Computer said they didn't exist. So they gave them to me. LOL! Bought two tubes and the 200ES has all new tires and tubes for around $50. Like I said, couldn't NOT take that deal.

Had to mount them myself obviously but being as the family business is a tire shop................I don't trust anyone but me to mount tires anyway.

[ps2fixer]

I have some family members near Cordon, KY and it's defo an interesting state people wise. I'm from Michigan where atleast when I was younger everyone was a hard core work to get stuff done like right now type of attitude, and down there everyone is say chill and laid back. The guy that lived next to my uncle road horse and buggy off road, like pretty extreme hills and everything. I never rode but my uncle has and he said he'd never go again lol.

Yea can't blame you on the tires for the price, same story why I was running the ones I had, came with the machines I bought or parts machines and they held air. Infact out of the 20+ machines I've owned, I've only bought 5 tires lol. 3 for a 200es all new discounted from TSC, and the last two were front tires for my 350x and 250sx.

Talking about the 350x, I just about stole it, $260 in "non-running" condition. After getting it in the truck I checked the tank and it's empty except a little tiny bit of gas in the bottom. Being dumb and excited I tilted the machine to get the tiny bit of gas to the carb and kicked it over with choke on. Fired up perfect first kick. I had to go right away after that, the seller's jaw dropped but I already paid for it lol. Right before I bought that machine I looked at a $600 350x that had all black plastics. Guy never showed up to take my money, and I couldn't get the machine to start and the only good thing on it was the plastics, cable frozen up etc. Looking back I kind of wish I could have gotten it too since the price really wasn't too bad, plastics + a solid start of a machine for $600 wasn't bad. At the time a good rider would be $800-1000, and a really nice clean machine ran around $1500.

99% of the tires I get for ATVs I mount myself as well, with hand tools lol. Not a whole lot to it, not sure why trust is a problem on other people. As long as the rim bead is clean and the tire is in fair shape it should seal well, maybe throw a new valve stem in just encase and it's good to go. My dad used to work fixing automotive, so tire changing is a thing I learned but we only have the tire spoons and a bead breaker and a bead breaker maul for bigger tires.

Anyway, the 350x isn't impossible to get for a reasonable price, just be consistent on watching for one for sale like on craigslist and such. Always good to check bearings (front wheel, rear axle, swing arm, and steering stem), it's a great bargaining point if it needs that kind of work even though the repair is generally easy to do. The 350x is by far my fav 3 wheeler to ride, second fav is the 250sx, basically the same thing as the 350x with a lot less power, stiffer suspension and the big perk, shaft drive. Between my 2 350x's, the best way to describe the riding style of them is they do exactly what you tell them to do, if you're in 4th gear and floor it, the front wheel is coming up. The ugly one pops up the front tire in 5th a little with a clutched rev up and dump the clutch.

Personally a lot of people suggest the 200x too, and out of 3 or so i've rode they didn't impress me at all, I'd rather ride a 200es to have the utility benefits even though the ride isn't as nice and a little less power because lower compression + shaft drive. Might just be all of the ones I've rode where doggy worn out machines, but my 200es was a smoker and it did wheelies better than the 200x's for some reason. I'm a bit of an odd ball, I like power/speed but I'm not super into 2 stoke machines oddly. I have two 250r's (82 & a 83/84 combined machine) and the one that runs well is fun to ride but I rarely get it out.

[Gabriel]

I posted this question in another thread but I wanna ask it again.

Where are you guys getting OEM QUALITY carburetors?

I'm like every other greasy working redneck and I ain't made outta money but for this machine, I DO NOT want to fight and f((( with it.

Even if it's a little different carb. I doubt Keihin and Mikuni are making the exact same carb still. As long as it bolts to the intake I can modify the air box ductwork (with in reason).
I'd rather go on and choke on a couple hundred bucks and be DONE with it than fight with it over and over again.
I don't mind tinkering with my junkers but this 200ES needs to be RIGHT from the get go.

[ps2fixer]

I've had a little experience with China clone carbs, and Ironically they are built fairly well for $20-25 price range. When you get them you'll have to tune it 100%, it's almost always too lean. Sometimes their jet sizes are smaller than what they are stamped with, so if you want good quality, buy name brand jets and put them in the China carb body. A cheat on this is if you have numbered drill bits and can drill the jets out to the correct size.

As for true OEM carbs, I'm not experienced on finding new, but there's a strong used market. Having a ultra sonic cleaner ($200+ unit) helps a ton and again, replacing 30 year old jets might be a good idea since over time they can get larger from erosion from the fuel flowing though them. Sadly I don't have an ultra sonic cleaner, my dad's planning to buy one once he has the spare funds though, and I'll have a bunch of carbs to "rebuild" for on hand spares.

I suspect if you compare numbers long enough, you can find a newer atv/engine that uses the same form factor (inlet/outlet sizes) and has similar sized jets to OEM, of course replacing them to their correct sizes would be the correct way to start tuning it. I'd guess general rule of thumb is to match the engine cc size and the carb should be similar. I've thrown a 185s carb on a 200x and it ran quite well, maybe a tiny bit on the lean side. The carb on the machine I couldn't adjust it enough, it was always way too rich, never dug into why and I sold all my 200x stuff a year or two ago.

FYI, I'm the kind of guy that cleans/fixes old used carbs already on the machines in 95%+ of the case. The only time I replace is when the slide is seized up and I can't get it out with out damaging the carb, or the adjustment screws/jets are seized up and can't be removed, or broken bolts etc.

[Gabriel]

Getting closer. Soon as I can afford to get my head redone at G&H I will get the engine assembled and I should be able to button this project up.

https://i.imgur.com/2RdVvgl.jpg

[ps2fixer]

Looking good so far, that LED headlight almost looks like it was meant to be there factory. Are the brackets the stock ones? Also, did that LED light came with two mount spots like that, or did you mod it? Most that I see are fog lights, or light bar layouts.

Also if you get a chance, I would like measurements on the gasket that goes in between the muffler and head pipe. China supplier has them but I'm unsure what OEM size is. Figured if they are the correct size I'll stock them in the 3ww shop. While you're at it, wouldn't hurt to measure the exhaust gasket too. I assume it's the copper ring style.

[Gabriel]

Yep. Factory style mounting bars made from round stock. Check out the first page of this thread for details The light had two holes. I didnt mod it.

[Gabriel]

FINALLY!!!! I'm back on this. Go the head rebuilt and ready to go. Gonna assemble this week and fire it up this weekend hopefully. Fingers crossed...no grinding or excessive smoke when she fires off for the first time.

[Gabriel]

https://i.imgur.com/6DziUVx.jpg

[Gabriel]

This is the first and LAST engine I do with Hondabond sealer. That shet just makes an unsightly mess. Stringy...garbage.


Ohh well, can't see most of it once it's in the frame and all the stuff is in place.

I'm off to tear the frame back down and get this engine in it's new home.

[fabiodriven]

I'm going to speak up for Three-Bond (Honda-Bond, Yama-Bond). It's a fantastic product when used correctly and there is reason it is used by multiple OEM manufacturers. The product is not wrong.

[Gabriel]

I have no doubt it'll hold and seal, but I still hate it.
I've built a little bit of everything from Briggs to FE Fords and SBC's and a fair few dirt bikes. Permatex Aviation sealer in the white plastic jar w. brush has never let me down. I'm sticking with it. I managed to get an air cooled VW built that didn't leak using it. That was a mercy from GOD himself. Worst design crankcase I have ever seen. LOL!!

[fabiodriven]

FE Fords is where it's at! I'm gonna look into that permatex stuff Gabriel.

[Gabriel]

I could derail my own thread on FE fords!

My truck in high school was originally a 6 cylinder truck. My dad built a 390 and put in there. It was a beast. Bored to 4.130 but kept the 3.78 stroke made it a 406. They actually made a 406 but there were subtle differences.
292 [advertised duration] solid lift
Edelbrock aluminum intake w/ 750 Holley
2" headers
FoMoCo dual point distributor
4.11 9" rear

No idea for horsepower but it was a standard shift and I easily take off in 3rd. Take off in 2nd and set the tires on fire. LOL!!
4 miles to a gallon....Good times!!!

[fabiodriven]

Yup they did make a 406. Also a 410. 330, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427 (regular), 427 (side oiler), 428, and 534. My first vehicle was also a stick shift F100 with an FE. Never figured out if it was a 390 or 352.

[Gabriel]

Yeah, most every block made had 352 casting numbers. Could have anything. BUT, being an f100, I'd say it's a safe bet it was a 360 or 390 unless it was a transplant. They were by far the most common two.

[fabiodriven]

Well since we've thoroughly derailed this thread... Lol!

My engine was a transplant. My 1970 F100 came with a rebuilt 360 (which I gave away, FE's were a dime a dozen in the 90's) but I had a completely rotted 65 F250 sitting there that had 29k original miles on it's FE. Being a 65 F250, it's most likely it was a 390, but I think it could have been a 352. The 360 wasn't available when that truck was built. So I took the engine from the F250 and put it in the F100.

[fabiodriven]

One last thing, lol! This is the actual truck!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181220/1e67b7123e0d78c199f7ec471864bedf.jpg

[Gabriel]

I stood right where you stood on mine with the engine running. No radiator, fan or pump obviously but it was running and I was standing in the engine bay setting the timing.


Try that with my '07 Toyota!!!!!

[ps2fixer]

Haha, yea those Japanese people design their things a bit on the tight fitting side, good news is, once it's in there and right, you basically never have to pull it apart again. Ease of work on vs working on it less but longer when you do need work done.

Weird I didn't get an email for replies till now, almost missed out on the ford talk lol. My uncle had around a 87 ford f150 2wd. Not sure what was up with the stock engine, blown up, smoking, ran like crap or what, but he threw in a 1968 Olds 350 rocket engine =). He knows jack crap about crabs though, so he leaned the snot out of it to try to get some MPG, I think he was getting 10-12mpg. He fiddled with the carb all the time, once he somehow got 20mph (he was driving like 45mph everywhere).

Fun story, my dad's 1996 F250 Power stroke Diesel 7.3L Turbo had some trans issues, it sat then he drove it and everything was good again, so he got it legal for the road and had a 6 ton bulldozer to haul in. My uncle with the same F150 truck hauled in blazer stuffed and some cast iron in the box, so he was probably around 4 tons for the scrap metal. Well, my dad's trans completely stopped working like it was in neutral, so my uncle towed his load + my dad's load in with that olds engine. We made it there with no problems and towed back home the same way. When they got back, they checked over the truck, and the transmission got so hot the rubber coating on the transmission cooler lines melted off. My dad gave him a 400 turbo trans to upgrade from his 350 turbo so there's no risk of it failing down the road. I can't remember what we figured on the total weight, but I think it was something like 18 tons. Pretty impressive for a car v8 engine using a car transmission, all stock not built in any way.

As you can kind of tell, engine transplants were common, my dad almost always ran a 350 or 455 olds engine in his trucks. He built one he called the Ca-truck (no clue how to spell it, it's car with out the "r" sound, then truck). Cab was a chevy station wagon with a chevy pickup cab put on it, box was home built when he was like 12, frame was a 1973 4x4 ford (i think atleast). I'm not sure what axles he used, it was a true 1 ton with duals and 4.10 gearing. Rear leaf pack he built himself, 13 leafs total per side. Was powered by a 350 olds engine and he hauled scrap like no other in it. 4 tons in the back of the truck was pretty common for him + two to three cars (talking 70s-80s era) on the trailer. This was back when scrap was $20-30/ton lol. Oh yea can't forget his giant pipe bumper he used to push scrap cars around like a demo derby lol. The thing that took the truck out was him joy riding on private land on his birthday drunk and he huge a huge pine tree going something like 60-70mph. Both people in the truck were just fine, but the frame broke behind the front axle and the front axle broke in half. Pipe bumper barely got bent though lol. My dad swears if it was a 1972 or older frame it wouldn't have broken.

So yea, if you want to haul something, get a Ford, if you want cheap parts to fix your truck all the time, get a Chevy, If you get a dodge, run away, the name says everything. This is atleast in the context of 80s era trucks, of course everyone has their own opinion and there's always exceptions. However stock numbers atleast for the 70's era cars/trucks, oldsmobile was the king of torque.

Of course today I don't drive a full sized truck, I drive a 1998 Toyota T100. Hauls a load pretty well for it's size/layout, but always could use more torque. I think a 4.0L 1UZ V8 would be a good match for the truck since it's mid sized (basically the same as a first gen Tundra). I've hauled so much in my T100 that the tires I have on it felt like balloons and was a horrible drive home. I have to get those crap tires off and get some load range E's on it instead of these C's.

Anyway back to the Ford side topic, I don't see the 460 engine mentioned. My co-worker bought a 1978 Ford Ranger and it had a 460 in it, not sure if it was a transplant or what. If they are not leaking oil, coolant, and power steering fluid, they run damn well. My dad's old F250 (before the Diesel) had a 460 in it and it leaked everything, but it could burn the tires off well and haul a good sized load.

I wonder how long before a chevy or dodge owner pops in to say their machine is better. Not looking for a fight, just personal experience and experience with family member's vehicles.

[Gabriel]

AARRRRRRR!!!! I knew this was going too easy!

Everything was going great. Motor runs PERFECT. Got the wiring harness all buttoned up for the most part. It will NOT go into reverse. It goes from low to high smooth. Will not shift into reverse. All 5 gears shift. Strange, on the bench, it shifted fine I thought. Now I am beginning to question if I actually did. STUPID! At least if I have to take the subtranny apart, I won't have to pull the engine.

Anything I can try before I take it apart? Something I have overlooked.

*sigh* Back to work.

[ps2fixer]

When moving the shaft into reverse, try to turn the output shaft/drive shaft/rear axle to get the gears to mesh together. My 200es was a bit picky about going into reverse, there was a trick to it but it's been quite a while since I rode it. I think Hi to Lo or Lo to Hi shifting worked best while in neutral (engine trans), and shifting into reverse worked best being stopped and shifting into first gear and moving the sub trans into reverse (it would spin the gears to make them mesh right every time). If it won't shift even with spinning the gears, then I guess something might have gone together wrong, has to be something simple though, there's not a whole lot in the sub trans.

[Gabriel]

there's not a whole lot in the sub trans.



My friend, we will have to agree to disagree. That sum beech was a nightmare to me. The 200E is fairly simple but that reverse gearing. Yikes. I thought I got it right because I really felt like I understood what was going on after spending several days assembling and disassembling it. Apparently I'm as dumb as people say I am cause i F'd something up. I have a feeling one of the forks is binding on the shift drum.

[ps2fixer]

Well compare it to the main transmission which has 5 gears, each of which probably has spacers, washers etc, order maters and all. This is like what 3 gears and a shift fork, 3 shafts and a few washers? It's been a while since I pulled one apart. You should be able to turn the output shaft and manually shift it into hi/low/reverse fairly easily to visualize what's going on. My guess is the shift fork is in backwards. Photos might help, but I'd be working from service manual diagrams and what I can visualize in the photos. I'm no transmission pro or anything, I've successfully pulled apart two TRX250X engines and made one good transmission from two (both had exploded piston parts in the trans section). My first and only true experience with transmissions on atv engines.

If you find any parts are missing or damaged, I probably have them from an 84 200es.

Also I don't think you're stupid at all, your one of the few people i've worked with that gets wiring/harnesses quite well. Not too many people can say they've drawn wire diagrams and actually understand what's going where. Maybe you understand electronics/wiring better than mechanical? Both things takes a completely different mind set, I guess I'm blessed to understand both fairly well. Probably because I don't really socialize much, so I research and want to understand the things that I don't understand. Been doing stuff like this since I was like 10 (started off programming then got the very very basics of electronics down, somewhere in mid teens I got into lawnmower engines and late teens learned to solder and install mod chips in game consoles, and moved on from there). Anyway, not trying to derail the derailed thread, just my honest opinion. I'm still learning and perfecting things to this day and trying to push myself beyond where I'm at. Kind of like be the best "you" that you can be, I love this stuff, so I thrive on it.

[Gabriel]

See I thought the same thing 10 minutes before i cracked this case open. I thought the 5 speed would be a pain and the subtranny would be easy......Ohh nay nay!

The 5 speed is pretty easy. First off, when the case halves are separated the 5 speed likes to stay on one side. Each gear cluster stays put on it's shaft and the gears have slots forged in them that lets you run a zip tie through. Then each cluster can be removed, inspected and cleaned easily. The shift drum can be a little tricky getting the forks in place but it's not bad at all.

The subtranny on the other hand, when the case cover is removed, the shafts like to stick in the cover instead of the main side. So when you pull it off, the whole thing takes a big ole country corn cob shet right in your lap. Parts sliding off going every where. Then you have to separate all the thrust washers and hope like heck you don't do what I've obviously done and screw it up.

[ps2fixer]

Haha yea, generally the trans is pulled apart with the engine sideways, so I could see the parts going everywhere. Here's the parts diagram, it should help ID the parts and which order they go in etc. I guess it has about double of what I was thinking, 6 gears, 2 shift forks. Maybe it was the ATC90 that had the single shift fork setup (no reverse). Anyway, shift forks can't be swapped, since the pin location is different, and the diagram I'd assume is correct for the direction they go. A lot of the thrust washers have measurements on the part numbers, so I'd suspect that would help a bit to get them in the right locations and such.

On the TRX engine, I had to pull the gear clusters apart to swap gears out (embedded aluminum in the teeth), but yea the groups didn't fall apart when I took it apart, but I did it super carefully so they would say in order. I think a couple thrust washers stuck to opposite side and fell out though. I poked around probably 30 mins or so turning the output shaft (sprocket shaft) and shifting it though the gears with the one half case off. Kind of figured out things worked somewhat and reassembled. Still can't just look at the gears and say x is first gear and this is 3rd, etc, I'd have to shift it into that gear and see which ones are locked to the shafts.

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/atv/1984/atc200es-a-big-red/sub-trans

[Gabriel]

Well I found it. (No I didn't, update at the bottom) Nothing is destroyed but this is NOT good.

Ok, there's a neutral lockout lever. You can see it in my picture. SO, there's a cam that actuates this. Apparently I have it installed 180 degrees out of time because i discovered I CAN in fact shift it into reverse......in 5th gear!!!! Not neutral.

Now here's the rub, if you can see the cam in the very bottom left of the case, it's blocked from enough access to get even a tiny wrench on. To remove and rotate this, I would need to remove the output case. I'm not willing to do this. I am going to play with it for the next few hours and see what I can do. If all else fails, I am going to consider removing the neutral lockout lever. This will let reverse function but it will allow it to be shifted in reverse in any gear.
On one hand, that safety lockout has a very important function. On the other hand....who the hell just reaches down and slams it into reverse while they're riding along?? The High/Low/reverse selector is very firm and positive in it's function. Not like it's just gonna magically fall into reverse at 30 miles an hour.
This is a last resort though. I have a few junk wrenches, torch, grinder and welder. I will modify a wrench if I can and I'm going to try to loosen the nut enough to rotate the cam and fix it proper but I really don't want to pull all this down again. My back is still killing me from getting the drive train back together. If I had a proper lift and an extra set of hands maybe but it's all me and the ground here.


Also something else I learned. Do not over lubricate the shafts when re-assembling. The fitment it tight and they hydraulically force themselves back out of the holes they ride in making assembly nigh impossible. Now that I am doing it over...I will assemble it almost dry and soak it with oil through the dent hole. The oil pump will dump plenty of oil once she's up and moving.


For the love of God MARK EVERYTHING you remove!!!!! LOL!!!!

https://i.imgur.com/P1PAoz4.jpg






***UPDATE***


Well balls!!! That ain't it either. I got the cam bolt loose but there's NO way to get that indexed wrong. I had a hard time believing I put that on wrong. So now I am totally lost. It HAS to be that I put the shift shaft in 180 degrees out. OR maybe I am missing something else entirely.
More updates on my Big Red Butchery to come. *sigh*

[ps2fixer]

Not sure what you used to lube the parts on reassembly, but there's "special" made lube called assembly lube that's commonly used when rebuilding engines. Pretty sure it's more or less white lithium grease though. It would do the same thing, but it's pretty thin stuff, so I'd think it would be less of a problem than say gear lube.

I kind of remember that safty feature on my 200es, I atleast recall being a bit confused how it would only go in reverse in neutral or first gear, but not any other gears, when it's a completely separate transmission basically.

Just guessing, but if the lockout safty thing isn't wrong, then maybe what it locks to was clocked wrong? I guess I should load up the service manual and scan over the process real quick. Not really seeing a whole lot of anything special that I'd think could cause the same issue you're running into. Maybe one of the "sliders" was installed backwards? But that wouldn't explain why 5th vs 1st/N.

I think I'd start with the basics, put the shfit drum in and have the lever and such installed, so you can shift it hi-low-reverse and see if you can get it to function correctly with out the gears/shift forks binding and making things more complicated, then add the shift forks into the mix and make sure all moves like it should. Then have the fun of putting it all back together. I suspect somewhere in the process it should become clear.

Also it might be worth grabbing a copy of the 1984 TRX200 service manual too, it's more or less the same engine, and in the electronics some things were covered better.

Scanning over the images for the transmission section, it appears the inner cover of the sub trans can separate as well. I'd think that would give access to the cam as you refer to it as for the lockout system. It seems like that has to be something to do with the issue. I'd guess removing the arm in the photo would allow it to shift into reverse at any time like you was saying before. I don't think it's so much of a safety for shifting into reverse at speed, but the fact you'd have 5 reverse speeds as well. In some special cases, having that as an option might be desired. It's like the Rincon with it's 3 speed trans, you only get the first gear speed in reverse, but some mud boggers trick it into think it's in drive and they can go around 60mph in reverse if they really wanted to try. If I was into it that far, that's probably what I'd do for my own personal machine. Of course I'd want to fix it right for selling it though.

[Gabriel]

Fixer, to get access to that little cam in the photo the rear end and output shaft assemble has to be removed. It's a waste of time since I did manage to loosen the bolt and rotate that cam with a magnet. It will NOT seat in any other position. WILL NOT. I fiddled with it for some time.

My only two conclusions are that I have put something together wrong in the main transmission. HIGHLY unlikely as it works perfect. OR, this engine is not all original as I thought when I dove into it. It is possible that someone mixed two different engines to make one. We all know there are models of ATC with opposite shift patterns. I am unaware if the ES model did this but there are S models that shift down and some that shift up. The 110's did too as Honda changed stuff around. IF a person got those parts mixed, that would make sense why it's all assbackwards inside mine.

I do NOT like it, but it fully functioning and sealed up (hopefully) for good. I removed the safety lever and spring and have opted to leave it out. Quick function test with the engine running proves everything works smooth and flawless as far as it goes. I refuse to call it fixed because it is NOT, but it is fully functioning and at the end of the day, if it's safe, solid and dependable, that's all that matters. The subtranny shifter is smooth but requires actual effort to lift the handle and move it to position. It also does as every other one I've ever had does and sometimes requires a wiggle to go into position. I think that's just the nature of an unsynchronized transmission of any sort. SO, from a safety stand point, I ain't worried.

This pisses me off though, to no end. I didn't learn ANYTHING. I don't mind the leaving out of the locking lever near as much as the not knowing why. I try to learn from everything I do and this one taught me nothing. Well, I guess it did teach me one thing. How to make a good quality sub-transmission cover gasket, since that part is un-obtainable. IT is also critical and NOT for the reason of sealing leaks. When testing things I assembled it with no gasket or sealer just to try out the function. That gasket MUST be in place as it acts as a thrust washer of sorts. If the cover is tightened even slightly without the proper thickness gasket, the high/low/reverse lever will bind and NOT function. Evidently things inside are pretty dang tight.



Whew!! I need to go shoot at something. Anger management therapy is desperately needed at the moment. Few hundred rounds through my Glocks and maybe break out the Wilson Combat AR-9 and I should feel better. LOL!!!




One thing is for fact and for certain. I am done with shaft drives. Every build I do from here on out will be running a chain. After this ordeal, the expense of a top shelf o ring chain seems paltry.

[El Camexican]

One thing is for fact and for certain. I am done with shaft drives. Every build I do from here on out will be running a chain. After this ordeal, the expense of a top shelf o ring chain seems paltry.

LOL! I was blessed by being told something along those lines about 35 years ago. It was one of the few bits of advice I actually listened to rather than go out and experience the agony firsthand.

If you’ve ever looked closely at the driveshaft/suspension of a Kawasaki Concourse, or BMW GS it becomes clear that the engineering Gods never wanted us to have shaft driven bikes or ATV’s.

[fabiodriven]

Shaft drive is a blessing where I ride. Also you're never going to beat it using the machine for utility purposes.

[wellys88]

Keep an eye on rear end fluid. Seal wears out or o ring on axle can leak . Had that problem with mine caught it just in time was bareley any oil in rear end when I was servicing the trike.

[Gabriel]

Yep. Already tended to that. Those seals are like trying find honest politicians.

[tripledog]

This place has the seals. https://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a/hon/506f8ccbf8700229747b95b7/final-gear-rear-wheel-axle Item# 23 in the illustration.

[ps2fixer]

Yep. Already tended to that. Those seals are like trying find honest politicians.

When I swapped the rear diff in my cousin's 250sx to a good 250es + replaced axle too, we just red RTV'ed it. Not my machine so can't report if it leaked or not, but it has seen a ton of mud for sure and it's not worn out yet.

Shaft drive vs chain is more or less exactly the same transmission wise though, it's just the output shaft that's splined for a drive shaft vs sprocket and shaft drive the shaft has to point towards the rear (90 degree gear set sometimes needed). The rear diff and drive shaft are were the major differences are. I prefer shaft drive for utility use and mudding, less maintenance as long as your seals are good. Chains do not like mud, my 99 warrior went though a lot of them.

It sounds more like you hate sub transmissions more than anything lol.

The theory of the wrong engine parts in it could make sense, but I believe only the ATC200ES and 84 TRX200 had this style of output sub transmission. Basically Honda just took the 200s design and made an adapter where the sprocket goes to make it have hi + low + reverse and make the output shaft drive.

I think I've seen a diagram of the shaft in question though. On the opposite side of the engine, is the neutral indicator pointing the right way for neutral? Not 100% sure but maybe that's the shaft controlling if you can/can't go into reverse. It doesn't show a bolt at the end of it though. Was hoping to see a pic to tell if it was possible to install it 180 out. Not what you want to hear really ,but that's my thinking at this point, the whole shaft 180 out assuming you can't re-clock the end part of it. As I've mentioned in the past, not a ton of experience with the 200 series, so just looking at service manual pics and guessing. Talking about the manuals, the pic below is from the 84 TRX200 manual, I didn't noticed that diagram in the ATC200ES one.

https://i.gyazo.com/4c3507edef8e417435460d0acc12c1e0.png