Possible To Have Stator Wire In Front (Visible?)

[Pierce1989]

Hey guys, came across a problem. My '81 200 ATC has weak spark, new ignition coil, boot, and CDI didn't fix it. The excitor stator coil measured about 190 Ohms, so I ordered a new one from G&H Discount ATC Supply. It tested 275 Ohms, and I soldered it on like an idiot before checking if it fits, tried to bolt it on, doesn't fit. The connector for power wire is perpendicular with the coil instead of kinda towards the top like the original to clear the metal, and also the plastic on the sides is too bulky to fit mount it. I did notice if I flip it over, with the brackets on the side pointing up instead of down like originally, with the wire connector up towards me, it fits.

Is there any issue mounting it like this? I'd solder on a little wire extension, and make it tight to the top so it doesn't get caught in the flywheel. May have to grind the sides of the metal brackets where the screw goes so it's flush with the circle with this setup. Anyone have this issue with aftermarket stator windings?

Also no returns on electrical, so need to make this work or order another one that would possibly have the same issue!

[Pierce1989]

To follow up incase anyone runs into this same issue, it does work. You can mount the excitor coil with the hole you solder the wire into pointing up towards you. Started trike up like normal in the driveway and it runs the same. Will do some plug chops to see if there's still black sooty plugs with the stock carb as lean as it can go.

[ps2fixer]

Are you sure it's a weak spark vs running rich? The stock exciter coil spec is 245 ohms on your machine which it will never read exact, similar machines spec 100-400 ohms so I'm pretty sure 190 ohms would be usable, but the new one likely puts out more voltage. Also what CDI did you use? Aftermarket solutions generally are generic listings, so hard to know for sure if it's the right timing curve etc, but if it runs the same it sounds to work fine. The pulse generator is the last part not mentioned, but that's more or less just a trigger for when to spark.

To me the black plug sounds to be a rich condition. Get a new NGK/Denso plug and run it for 5-10 mins and plug check it to see what the situation is. You might have to re-jet the carb, never know if someone drilled the jets larger, or put the wrong ones in.

Stock jetting should be #95 for the main jet, jet needle at the 3rd slot, pilot screw 1 7/8 turns out. I don't see a pilot jet mentioned which is strange to me. These specs are based on the 84 ATC200ES manual since the 81-83 ATC200 manual I have isn't the greatest resource.

Also notice under the rich mixture section there is a mention of an air jet, so maybe that's what the pilot jetting is based on (air instead of a fuel jet)

https://i.gyazo.com/f28857ac12910680ad565c563695ecc3.png

As far as the exciter coil install, the biggest thing is to have the coil part be located right, the wiring/soldering doesn't matter as long as it doesn't short out or interfere with anything else. Same should apply to the ignition coil, it can be mounted any way desired, but the metal mount point needs to have a clean connection to the frame since that's how the coil grounds to make the circuit to the spark plug.

[Pierce1989]

Thanks for the explanation. I bought new CDI, new coil and boots, put them on and didn't see a difference in the size of spark. The CDI was a $20 from G&H Discount ATV Supply. I removed them, put the stock CDI and igniton coil back on, then put that new excitor coil on. Now when I start the trike, it spits some black smoke when revving, and doesn't idle correctly. Which is telling me there was an issue with the spark and this new excitor coil may have fixed it, and now the carb needs new adjusting? Also, when I soldered the wire to the excitor coil, I have it tight over the coil and soldered but the wire is not protected. I put electrical tape around it at first but was concerned it'd come off due to the flywheel moving so quickly and possibly damage something, so I removed it. Hopefully it's okay being bare?

[86125m]

my dad's bike has had the same type of aftermarket exciter coil for 20 years with no problems. are you sure the engine just doesn't need a top end rebuild? what about the carburetor if not clean or not jetted properly it can give you all kinds of problems. This doesn't seem to be an electrical issue it seems to me to be either a carburator or engine problem.

[Pierce1989]

my dad's bike has had the same type of aftermarket exciter coil for 20 years with no problems. are you sure the engine just doesn't need a top end rebuild? what about the carburetor if not clean or not jetted properly it can give you all kinds of problems. This doesn't seem to be an electrical issue it seems to me to be either a carburator or engine problem.


I'm sure it does need a top end rebuild! I don't think either of my '81 ATC 200s have had top end rebuilds by previous owners. I didn't consider this because they always run great, it just bothers me that the spark plugs are black with dry soot after riding for a couple minutes. I just rode it on my street for 3 minutes, using just enough throttle to just putt to test pilot jet, and the plug was black with dry soot. My pilot jet can only be cleaned and not removed. It is the original carb but is the Keihin one with the pressed pilot jet, which I think is somewhat rare (had another post on here about it). What inside the topend do you think could cause it? I thought it was electrical because the gas wasn't being 100% ignited, leaving some residue behind.

[Pierce1989]

Alright, just put new CDI and ignition coil (cleaning contacts beforehand), it has the new excitor coil, and still black soot plugs immediately. Please help! I've thought maybe it's getting more fuel in the combustion chamber than it can burn, even though I checked the float level a few weeks ago when I cleaned the carb trying to diagnose this issue. Could the float or needle cause this, even if the bike is running fine? The valves are adjusted to spec, but could black soot be from the exhaust port not opening entirely? I'm running out of ideas... As a test I have tried rejetting 2 sizes smaller, leaning out the carb needle and pilot screw, and it still has black soot on the plug even as it's starving for fuel by being so lean. Makes no sense...

[ps2fixer]

Yea kind of sounds like a carb issue, maybe someone tried to clean out the pilot jet with a torch tip cleaning set which is basically a super tiny file, or they used a drill bit etc. Hard to really tell for sure since it's such a tiny hole to start with. A set of numbered drill bits could tell you what size the hole is, and find what the stock size of it should be with some internet research.

I know it's not decremented much, but it might be worth while buying a China carb and giving that a shot, generally of what I've seen the are set a bit on the lean side.

Fuel not burning isn't directly a spark issues, too much fuel doesn't burn hot enough, so the soot buildup happens. Same goes if it's too lean, it burns too hot and leaves a leaves a white powder. Very similar to how a wood stove works, too cold of a fire (too lean) creates a creosote build up, having a super hot fire afterwards burns the creosote up and leaves a white powder, care has to be taken though because a chimney fire is possible with too much creosote buildup.

Anyway if you have a nice bright blue/white spark, the ignition system should be fine.

As far as the top end goes, the valves can leak causing low compression, valve seals/guides could be worn and leaking oil into the cylinder (possible cause of the black smoke/buildup), or the rings could be worn or broken making it have low compression and possible oil getting past the rings. Basically to test the top end you'd do a compression test and see if it's in spec. There's also some techniques to tell if low compression is caused from the rings or valves but can go into that later if you have a compression tester or can borrow one.

[Pierce1989]

You're the man ps2fixer, thanks for taking time to give advice. I just did a compression test, 150psi on the dot. Tried a couple times. My manual says 156 +- 14, so it seems like the topend may not be the problem. I actually bought 2 Chinese carbs that didn't fit exactly without modifications and would die going up-hill, so I just removed the bowl gasket and pilot screw/oring/washer and put them on my Keihin. I'll try them out again. Thanks again

[ps2fixer]

Just to make sure, that's 150psi with a warmed up engine right? Also note the service manual says to do full choke and hold the throttle full open. Not saying it's a weird number or anything, just want to make sure the process is right so the number is accurate.

Service manual I have has the same numbers you said, the 84 200es also has the same specs, so yea it sounds like you're engine is healthy compression wise (rings/valves) and also suggests the timing is good.

Good spark, and good compression, so the missing leg is correct amount of fuel.

Also if the needle and seat don't seal to stop the gas flow into the float bowl, it can cause a rich condition too. If you leave the gas on, does the carb ever leak gas? Float level too high would have similar effects, not sure if that carb has an adjustable float level though. I know those 200cc series carbs are a bit strange, I had a couple ATC200X's I got for parts and the single carb that came with them would run fine on one engine, but not the other that had better compression and such. I ended up using a ATC185S carb on the better compression 200x engine and it ran pretty well till it's timing chain broke.

I can't really think of anything else except carb/fuel related on why the plug would be black. I guess it's still possible for the valves to leak oil down their valve guides and still seal well. Does the machine use a noticeable amount of oil at all? A trained nose should be able to tell the difference in the smell of the exhaust for burning oil vs rich on gas (both causes black smoke). Bring it up to Michigan and I'll give it a sniff lol.

[Pierce1989]

Just to make sure, that's 150psi with a warmed up engine right? Also note the service manual says to do full choke and hold the throttle full open. Not saying it's a weird number or anything, just want to make sure the process is right so the number is accurate.

Service manual I have has the same numbers you said, the 84 200es also has the same specs, so yea it sounds like you're engine is healthy compression wise (rings/valves) and also suggests the timing is good.

Good spark, and good compression, so the missing leg is correct amount of fuel.

Also if the needle and seat don't seal to stop the gas flow into the float bowl, it can cause a rich condition too. If you leave the gas on, does the carb ever leak gas? Float level too high would have similar effects, not sure if that carb has an adjustable float level though. I know those 200cc series carbs are a bit strange, I had a couple ATC200X's I got for parts and the single carb that came with them would run fine on one engine, but not the other that had better compression and such. I ended up using a ATC185S carb on the better compression 200x engine and it ran pretty well till it's timing chain broke.

I can't really think of anything else except carb/fuel related on why the plug would be black. I guess it's still possible for the valves to leak oil down their valve guides and still seal well. Does the machine use a noticeable amount of oil at all? A trained nose should be able to tell the difference in the smell of the exhaust for burning oil vs rich on gas (both causes black smoke). Bring it up to Michigan and I'll give it a sniff lol.




Again and again, you are the man. Thanks so much for the help.. I think I was thinking too deep into it. I put on the Chinese carb, set pilot screw out 1.5 turns to begin with, and it cranked up. It needs some tuning, but I tried all ranges of throttle in 2 laps around the cul-de-sac just like the test with the Keihin carb. No black soot at all. That being said, it's too late to bother the neighbors too much so need a longer test but running this same test on Keihin carb gave black soot.

The reasoning behind me disregarding the carb as the problem is because the bike ran great, I have been inside that carb cleaning like crazy, trying different main jets, moving clip on main needle, checking float height...nothing stopped the black sooty plugs. I am thinking either the float was allowing too much fuel, main needle wasn't seating properly, or needle valve wasn't shutting off fuel properly, allowing too much fuel into combustion chamber? I'd love to hear the science behind it. Also, last time I tried this Chinese carb it would run but cutoff uphill or at random times. Possibly just needs tuning.

[ps2fixer]

Yea lack of power under load I'd think it's too lean (typical for Chinese carbs), tuning likely needed but continue your test to see if no more black smoke, and see what a fresh plug looks like with that carb. A wire wheel/brush could be carefully used on the spark plug, the better route is a plug cleaner, which is basically a mini sand blaster, just remember to blow out the plug well before installing to get the sand out if you have one.

Carbs are fairly simple over all, all they do is allow so much fuel to go into the engine with so much air flow. Kind of a metering device. I've built a carb with pvc pipe and some valves for adjusting and made engines run off gas vapor. Hint, it's nothing special like people hype it up to be for MPG etc.

Anyway, the pilot jet is for low rpm. At low rpm the throttle plate/plunger is mostly closed, so there's high vacuum between it and the engine. A small jet is used and the main adjusting screw is for that jet generally. It's basically the low, or idle area tuning of the carb. It makes less effect at high rpm since it's so much smaller than the main jet.

The main jet, which on these Jap engines is generally a needle on the end of the plunger is the mid to high rpm jet. Once it's opening, it allows a larger flow of gas due to the lower vacuum present. The need clip adjuster changes how much the needle valve is open vs the plunger (top end fine tuning), the main jet sometimes has an adjuster, but pretty sure your carb is setup where you'll have to swap jets around to change the tuning. For the needle goove adjustment, the highest closest to the tip groove is most lean setting, while the lowest is more rich.

Needle & seat is the valve on the float in the float bowl, basically it allows or stops fuel from getting in the float bowl so the fuel level is somewhat consistent, which helps keep the tuning accurate. Bridges and stratton engines sometimes have a strange design in this area, and the fuel tank was part of the float bowl system, so a full tank the engine ran slightly rich, and an empty tank the engine ran normal/lean. Nearly every bridges engine I've seen will back fire if you rev it up and let it back to idle when the fuel tank is at say 1/4 full.

Anyway, here's kind of a diagram to visualize the effects things have and different rpms. I know I've seen a better diagram in one of the service manuals for something, but can't seem to find it. It had actual rpm numbers ,and was showing truly the real effect as it was part of a diag manual for whatever machine. Anyway, different carbs have different designs, so this isn't a one size fits all, but it's pretty ok to look at it for a generic sense of what's going on.

http://www.iwt.com.au/images/effects3.gif

Also seems the source talks about a lot of what I just said, I didn't read it but I suspect they go into better detail than what I have.
Source: http://www.iwt.com.au/mikunicarb.htm

Basically that diagram tells us you putting around at say 1/8-1/4 throttle and having a very rich condition is most likely the pilot jet. If you did a similar test by cleaning the plug and getting on the road or where ever and getting in a high gear to use 1/2 throttle would show if the main jet/needle are sized/adjusted right.

Anyway, I'm not a true expert on carbs or anything, but I can apply what I know/understand. Hopefully this gives a little insight on the magic of a carb =).

Oh also should mention, an engine running rich will still run/perform pretty well. It might chug a little and not rev up as quick, but it still runs more or less smooth at static rpms. It can run while being so rich that a situation called washing the cylinders out can happen. Basically under normal operation, there's a thin layer of oil on the cylinder walls that the piston rings ride on to help seal and reduce friction. With too much gas, the gas is a strong cleaning agent for oil, and makes the surface more or less metal to metal, excess heat builds up and can wear out the cylinder wall/piston rings. On a 2 stroke it's not nearly as big of a thing because there's oil in the fuel, but they can have a similar effect on the cylinder walls when running too lean (most of the oil is burned up from the higher temps), and the cylinder walls, piston, and rings can score making those lines on the cylinder walls. It's fairly uncommon for 4 strokes, but still possible. Figured I'd point that out, since a smooth running engine doesn't mean a well running engine. In fact look at any high performance engine like a super charged v8 with a "loppy" cam in it to get the most out of the engine at high rpm. Generally they idle like complete crap, but get in the range they are designed to run well in, and they make massive horsepower. It's hard to find a video of this effect, either it's a cold start and the person is trying to warm it up then kill the vid before letting it idle, or it's on a drag strip with the idle high where it's not doing it (not exactly street cars). This was about the best I could find that was still carb based. Sounds to be well tuned just based on the little blip he gave it. Not really an apples to apples comparison, but just wanted to show an extreme case lol. Throttle response has a lot to do with ignition timing and tuning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8k5PwUMUI4

EDIT:

Of course after I post I find a vid right away that shows a more typical example. Olsmobile engines have kind of a loppy cam from the factory and has almost a miss sound to them, completely normal though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9EMiPl0WoA

Here's what basically every 350 olds sounded like when I grew up (my dad was a olds fan). My dad put 350/455 olds engines in trucks most of his life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9JgRuboAuU

[86125m]

the chinese carbs are touchy some of them work really really well like the ones on my 200x and my 125m. But the one I bought for my 200m never would run correctly.

[ps2fixer]

the chinese carbs are touchy some of them work really really well like the ones on my 200x and my 125m. But the one I bought for my 200m never would run correctly.

I'd be interested what would happen if you took the good working one from the 200x and put it on the 200m. I'd assume it would run well assuming no intake leaks etc since both engines consume about the same amount of air, so fuel tuning should be really close if not the same for both engines. Maybe one carb layout is garbage while the other layout (200x) is good, or are both carbs the same that you used?

Kind of side tracked from the topic, but should be interesting to learn from.

[Pierce1989]

Thanks for all the replies and explanations everyone. Learning from the advice on here and doing it myself saves so much money and adds the experience, so thanks again! So with Ps2fixers advice leading to the carb, it seems like it was the issue. Won't know 100% for sure until I can take it out to the everglades and ride some... the little tests in the cul-de-sac aren't enough. So now the questions are:

1. Should I put the original stator back on with the wire in the back so I don't have a live wire going over the aftermarket stator to the front pointing outwards? If that thing breaks while out in the everglades, that's miles and miles walking back to the truck. Or is it unlikely to break if it's soldered and tight?

2. Offtopic, but can't find answer on google. '81 200 has never had a taillight, or the storage/tool box it mounts under. The 2 wire are hanging off in the back with wire ends on each of them to block water or anything. Bike runs, but headlight is sometimes on, sometimes not. Could these affect it? Should they be soldered together to close that part of the circuit, or is it not affecting anything whatsoever electrical? If not it's probably just a bad connection somewhere. Bout to dig through it, but wondered if this is affecting the circuit in any way?

[ps2fixer]

If the brown wire is shorted out, it could make the lights go out I suspect, never tired it but seems to make sense. Might have to poke around a bit on the harness to try to find a bad wire or bad connection. There should be a yellow wire that connects to the engine's stator, that would be the main "hot" wire since it's AC power. Ohm testing it to the headlight blue/white wires while wiggling possible problem areas (tail light area for a short, and the handle bar switch connector). Another possible cause could be corroded switches for the handle bar switches, probably more likely I'd think.

As far as the exciter coil, if it's working and you soldered it well, I don't see that being a problem in the near future. You should know pretty fast if it is going to be a problem or not. You could put heat shrink over it, but it might get too hot there for typical heat shrink spec. As the saying goes, don't fix what is not broken, if it's working well, then unlikely you need to "fix " it. Not really a thing to live by, but in this case I think it's pretty safe to go by that.

[Pierce1989]

I'm curious, since there is no taillight, would it be beneficial to disconnect the brown and green wire from the wiring harness that runs along the frame to the taillight and remove them? Or whether they're there with electrical tape or wire ends on each wire out the back, or whether they're removed, it makes no difference? If the brown and green wire were connected instead of wire plugs on each, would it be beneficial to the electrical system or make no difference? I have the service manual with the wiring diagram and it looks like the headlight and taillight run off the same wire, so I'm confused how the headlight works sometimes if the taillight is nonexistent with 2 wires not connected.

Will be buying electrical 101 books...

[ps2fixer]

The wiring won't make any difference assuming there's no problems with the brown wire.

To sum up the related wires for most Honda machines:

Green = Ground
Yellow or White with Yellow stripe = Power/Hot wire (Generally AC)
Brown = Hot wire for tail light
Blue = Hot wire for headlight (Brights)
White = Hot wire for headlight (Dims)

The way the headlight switches work, whenever the lights are on dim or brings, the brown wire also is connected to the power. If you wanted to disconnect the wires to the tail light area, the handle bar switch connector would be where you'd pull the terminal. The green wire is ground, so it can be shorted to the frame and not make any difference at all.

Here's the table of the connections that visualize what's going on a little easier than trying to explain it in words. The (N) position is between low and high, it's a spot where both the bright and dim element gets power, pretty much ignore that line since it's not standard usage. It's good to view it as yellow wire as the power source, and the brown, white, and blue wires as what is getting powered.

https://i.gyazo.com/86127f4de2ba62f51160c0131e43ef1b.png

Hopefully that made some sort of sense for you.

[Pierce1989]

You've got me in the right direction for the headlight as well, but still having an issue. My dim switch has never worked, and the headlight only sometimes comes on. Tested lighting coil for continuity like service manual says, got OL. Tested the continuity on an old engine, as well as my other ATC with working headlights, and got the same OL reading. But I get continuity touching probes, and excitor coil. So not sure if that test is working.

Shooting for the stars here since I know I've asked a ton of questions! Bought new crimps/connectors and ready to dig in. The dimmer never worked, and I can't remember if the off position worked since I never used it. Bulb is good. Dimmer switch plastic is broken but has been taped on. Kill switch unplugged, when plugged in the engine won't start.

In the pictures, the previous owner had the yellow wire from stator coil soldered on somewhere on dimmer switch I think. I say this because the tip has solder on it. The other part of that break in yellow wire in pic I am putting new crimp on but twisted it for test before pic. The brown wire off dimmer switch was connected with blue wire in headlight. The brown wire is looped on 2 probes in the dimmer switch. Maybe to bypass low beams. I ran the green ground from headlight to a bolt on recoil starter to make sure it's grounded, but it was plugged into splitter with other ground for killswitch. This setup was how I bought it 4 years ago, and the headlight sometimes worked.

Since I couldn't figure out dimmer switch, I tried to bypass it so lights are always on. Yellow wire to blue headlight wire, headlight green to ground. Continuity was .02 or so, so it seemed good. Started motor, revved, no headlight. Please help! Does anyone know which probes on the dimmer do what? There's like 6 of them with no identifiers, and only the brown wire in pic was plugged into anything. And yellow wire wherever it was soldered on. Thanks in advance!!!!!!!

255529255530255531255532

[ps2fixer]

To bypass the headight switch, you'd connect the yellow wire to the blue (or white) on the headlight, and the brown wire from the harness if you want taillight power. Green wire is universal ground, so easiest would be to plug it into the double female connection by the neck in the 2nd photo.

Looks like the yellow wire broke off the headlight switch. I'm not used to that style of switch so can't really say where it normally hooks up exactly, but the image I posted is the table of how the switch should function.

It might be easiest to put a headlight switch on the handle bars. I could wire up a chinese one if you want. It also has a kill switch built into it.

Not real sure what 0L is for sure, but with the probes not touching it should read one value (basically infinity ohms), and when you short the probes together it should read about 0 ohms. A lot of them have a beep setting so when they touch it beeps. If I recall correctly, the lighting coil test is just checking if it has connection between the two alternator wires (yellow to yellow, or yellow to green, depending on the machine). Some machines don't have the alternator grounded internally, so there is commonly a ring terminal that bolts somewhere on the frame, most often at the ignition coil. This will be needed for the coil/spark plug to function. I checked my multi-meter real quick and I get a "0.F" reading for no connection. Not sure what the letter means, but just means no connection.

Anyway, assuming your harness is pretty hacked up, I could make a replacement. However, I don't think I have one for that year to base the reproduction on, so I'd have to shop around for one to copy that has all it's connectors and such.

Anyway back on the diag work. If you can't get a good reading off the alternator wires, then that could be the cause of the lights not working always, but my eye goes to the hacked up wiring and think what else has been hacked up in the harness and the fact it appears wires are breaking apart/getting brittle.

Another test you could do is to disconnect the alternator wires (yellow+yellow or yellow+green) assuming the black/red wire can be left hooked up for the CDI to function. Put the meter in AC volts mode and take a reading while the engine is running between the two wires from the engine side. You should have a fairly consistent voltage. If it jumps to 0 and back up to the normal voltage and such, then the issue is with the lighting coil. If not then it sounds to be a poor connection somewhere (or multi-able spots) or even a broken wire. Oh I found the specs for a 200es lighting coil, should read 0.1-1ohms

I got fancy and wrote on one of your images lol. Did you hook up the wires like I marked in the image? Of course don't forget to have the engine alternator plugged in to the harness too.

Oh also, you can test the kill switch too. Black/White to Green should have connection when switched to off, no connection when switched to on. Also if you want to replace terminals with the OEM style ones, they are 3.5mm bullet terminals. I buy mine from cycle terminal.

http://www.cycleterminal.com/bullet-terminals.html

https://i.gyazo.com/08c5e2cd45738e0e2aff972818bbdf16.jpg

[Pierce1989]

You are the man, thanks so much for all the help! Had some fun doin it too. Problem has been diagnosed with the headlight, the socket where the headlight pushes into is bad. I checked continuity from all wires and all is good. The lightbulb socket actually has continuity, but the lightbulb won't brighten when screwed in, even when wiggled in there. I grounded a wire from frame and hooked it onto the lightbulb plate itself, twisted the white, blue, and yellow wires together, started engine, and touched the wires to the lightbulb terminal and that baby brightened. So even the dimmer switch may be good, but the socket is bad. Not sure how this would happen if I have continuity through it...

Question is, where do you buy a new one that fits in there? Both my ATCs have the original Stanley socket, same model, looked it up online and didn't see them for sale anymore. Are there any stores that would carry something that could work I could get tonight?

[ps2fixer]

What are your plans for the headlight? The headlight housing is broken (where the headlight switch is). If you're replacing it with OEM, you might luck out and get the sub harness with the head light. If you don't care about sticking to OEM, you could get like a 200ES housing and put a standard 4x6 headlight in it (i think that's the right size), and it uses the standard H4 headlight plug like old cars/trucks.

If you really want that socket, I have one from a ATC185, pretty sure it would fit. I'll just have to dig it up and get photos if you're interested. The actual stocket I don't think is very standardize so finding new might not be possible.

One thing to check on the bulb is both bight and dim. The metal around the base of the bulb is the ground wire, the two nubs on the bottom are for bright vs dim connection. Sometimes a new bulb can fix connection problems, the lead/solder on the bottom can wear over time from the vibrations. That's how my 350x headlight was like atleast. Just make sure to order the same wattage bulb, any automotive parts store should have them, even walmart and such probably has the bulbs since I'm pretty sure the connection interface is pretty standard, just the socket design to the headlight housing is a weird design. Personally I'd try a new bulb first, then look at replacing the socket/sub harness, or get some other headlight to use instead. LED headlights are common, but it's generally best to have a "DC Power kit" on the machine so it can run off DC. Most can run off AC but might run a little hotter/last not as long.

[Pierce1989]

I'd love to just get a new headlight but I see used ones going on Ebay for a pretty penny. The headlight lenses on Ebay don't include that socket (Stanley 60766). I've attached some pictures. I was just wondering if there was an autopart or home improvement store that would sell something remotely similar to fit through the hole, even if I have to make some modifications/putty it on/anything. Spent so much money lately, just want to get riding and now it's dark after work...

I tried putting the bulb from my other working '81 ATC 200 and it didn't work. Is it possible to remove the brown backing plate where the lightbulb terminals touch, take out the spring, and resolder some wires onto it? Or are these generally not fixable?255542255543255544

[ps2fixer]

Yea the sockets can be taken apart. It's hard to see with the plastic cupler thing around it, but the 350x sockets are the same basic design, just it mounts between a holder and the headlight housing instead of the twist in style. On those, you push the brown part with the contacts down and angle it so one side with the tab can clear the metal cage it's in. Other side should slip out and you have the terminals/wire/spring accessible. Looking at the photos, the socket looks to be in good shape overall.

With no bulb hooked up, does the blue/white wires have any connection? If they do then a wire broke off and is shorting out on the spring. Also test the two to the green wire. All 3 wires should have no connection when it's good. I suspect you'll have to solder the wire on to the back side of the terminals if that's the case. Not sure what kind of soldering experience you have, but if you don't have the stuff already, get "electrical" leaded solder, 60/40 is most common, but the better mix is 63/37. I personally use the brand Kester, it's expensive but works great. There's two types of electrical solder, one is solid wire, and the other has a flux in the center. For this kind of work flux in the center makes it a lot easier to work with. You'll also need some flux to apply on the wire/terminal backs. Tin the wire end first, then flux again and melt the two together.

How does the headlight bucket attach to the ring around it? If it's a couple of spring wire on each side, it should be the same style headlight ring I was talking about before. I have one LED headlight left from when I ordered a bunch before for the 200ES application. The inside of the lens fogged up a bit with some crystal formation (silicone?), but I could update the wiring to work on your machine. It's a 45/45w LED head light, so it should match your OEM headlight bulb. I've had good luck running it off a machine with no battery, but it was a 200es which has a voltage regulator/rectifier. I'm planning to make a "DC Power Kit" pretty soon, so maybe you could be a tester.

I went to where I had the headlight type parts at, didn't see the headlight sub harness that you need, but I have a housing, ring, and headlight. The plastic housing is far from good shape, cracks in quite a few spots, but better than what you're working with right now. I grabbed some photos of everything. I don't have the mounting springs for the headlight, if you don't have them you'd need them from somewhere else, not really sure of a good source except used. This housing was originally from a 200E, I can measure the width of it if you want to be sure it's the right width for your headlight mounts. I should have the nuts for the inside of the housing around somewhere too, just didn't see them right away. I did have the headlight socket listed on ebay for a while, I don't recall if it sold or not though.

Oh also, if you do get your socket apart, be sure the terminals are installed the same way, or else the blue/white wire functions will reverse. Also the LED headlight has a plastic cover, so it can scratch up fairly easy. Kind of expected when it's made in China.

[Pierce1989]

The ground wire coming out of the sub-harness/socket is bad. It doesn't look like I can get in there to resolder it without removing the metal plate somehow, or breaking open the little slot the wire goes through to get to the metal. Lightbulb works when hooked up with an extra ground coming from engine to the outside lightbulb metal plate, so I'm gonna solder a little spot right there just to ride this weekend. Or maybe try to cut open the plastic where the ground goes and solder it back to the metal!

You have me intrigued with these headlights especially the LED but I don't know how well LED works on a machine w/o battery or rectifier. And I have one spring screw but i'd be in the same boat missing a sub-harness that works and a dim switch. If you still have the LED light when you make the DC Power Kit, I'm definitely interested. When are you thinkin?

[ps2fixer]

The DC Power kit I have to order the components from China and do some testing to make sure they can handle more electrical load than what these machines should ever experience (200w with my 350x). The actual adapter wire I can make any time, I just want to hand test 2-3 different regulator options to see if one is better than the other etc. The LED headlight is already wired for a 200ES, should be the same connections your headlight had stock too.

Here is the headlight to ring clip/spring you need. Two total, one for each side of the headlight.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Honda-ATC-200ES-Big-Red-Headlight-Lens-Mounting-Clip-Retainer-OEM-84/281920144161?hash=item41a3c00321:g:wHsAAOSwpzdWp8a L:sc:USPSFirstClass!48628!US!-1:rk:1:pf:0

Here's a listing showing how the clip is installed holding the headlight. There's no adjustment to the headlight like yours, it's purely adjustable by the two bolts that holds the headlight on (up/down). Also note in the listing, there's no green wire! Clearly that must be a common issue lol.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-200-ATC-BIG-RED-ATC200-ES-ATC-200-ES-Headlight-Unit-1984-HB106/401026025758?hash=item5d5f03891e:rk:25:pf:0

Anyway, at low rpm you might notice a little bit of flickering, but since the regulator/rectifier is full wave, it shouldn't be easy to see the flicker. If I've done my math right, 1400rpm / 60 minutes to get cycles per second = 23.3hz, it's full wave rectifier, so it doubles that number to 46.6hz. House lighting can use 60hz and not be noticeable, but sometimes can cause headaches for some. I doubt that's a common thing for atv riding though. 60hz should be right around 1800rpm. Really, the stock headlight flickers too the same way at half the hz, however the headlight design is slow to dim when it looses power, LEDs are near instant.

Anyway, thinking out loud on the headlight socket problem. Since it's already basically junk, might be worth trying to cut some of the plastic covering off, just enough to solder a wire to the metal on the side. Might be quite a challenge to solder to somewhat thick steel and the plastic around it makes it even harder with a high chance of melting. The new Honda sockets I get/mod for the 350x are spot welded for the ground. I bought some Chinese ones before and they are riveted on. I think if you can get the socket apart (the terminal plate out) and get the wires out of the way, you could put a small ring terminal on the green wire and rivet that to the steel inside of the socket (near the bottom) and do alright. Of course you could solder a wire direct to the bulb too. Not the most ideal, but should function. Just careful not to shock the glass too much.

EDIT: Also I could always buy more LED headlights. They are not like super super high quality, but it isn't bad at all for Chinese built, just the plastic lens is my only complaint. If I remember right, the wire size wasn't half bad either. I was selling these for the 200ES application (or 200E), but personally I have one on a 250ES which has the regulator/rectifier and a 200w alternator. I know the light is very bright though, people at trike fest were holding their arm up shelling from the light, and it was on dim (I burnt out the bright circuit when testing it on a battery charger, too high of voltage I guess).

Talking about trike fest, my cousin and I were helping light up the herk n jerk. This video I found has us blinding the camera quite a lot. My light is on the far far left, the light on the right is a 27w LED fog light (he also had one on his rear rack facing more down, when the machine gets pulled back you can see just how dim the OEM style lights are lol. You can see all 3 lights at 6:30. I only had dims, it's about twice as bright on brigs lol. 15x 3w LEDs, dim = 6 light up if I remember correctly. You can compare the light when we left at around 20:40. Had some people being not so nice so I had to get away and go riding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DULyC0Im8BI&t=235

[ps2fixer]

Oh just nice while poking around searching for options for headlight sockets for you that the clips I mentioned before to hold the headlight in are still in production by honda, about $10 each. Part number is 33109-440-931

Also found new headlight sockets (wrong wiring but the socket is the important part), but the store is currently out of stock. Appears to be Chinese built. Might be a possible new product for me to focus on some time and cover all the 3 wheelers that use that style of socket.

Also another side note, I found another 200es headlight plastic bucket in better visual shape, but the plastic is still deformed/beat up a little. The bottom two headlight screws will probably have to be drilled out. Also have a headlight guard, not sure if that would bolt directly on your machine or not though. And the last thing of course is the headlight socket + bulb. It's a different design that has the ground wire connect via a space connection. Found myself a new mini sub harness to cover lol.

Found this too, NOS, but seems like the price is pretty fair for what it is. Seems to be a true NOS too.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Honda-Stanley-Headlight-Socket-81-85-ATC200-81-ATC110-6-0766-33130-958-013-/122683310896

[Pierce1989]

After you mentioned the LED lights I did some research and am very interested but how much do you think the rectifier would be? I was able to get my headlight to work, drilling a new hole through the plastic and running the ground through it and soldering it onto the base where the lightbulb presses in. It still looks like crap though and LED would do wonders if it's after work getting dark and I'm lost in the Everglades, like usual.

Took her out for the first time today and had a blast. It's the dry season and you can now go further and further into the Everglades. But definitely need back mud tires. Do yall have any experience with some good ones? I was looking at the Innova Mud Gear 25x12-9, which would set me back about $225 - $250 for 2. Also looking at ITP Mud Lite which are cheaper but less aggressive tread. I've also read that both of them don't clean themselves out well if caked with mud, so I'm a little cautious. The mudpits back there can be like quicksand, so looking for something more quality that clears themselves and will get you through anything. Thanks for any suggestions!

[ps2fixer]

I had great experience with Highlifter Outlaws. Here's 28's on a Yamaha Blaster frame with a TX500 engine (unfinished project). Was running them on a 350 warrior before my family got into Honda. They also made 25in, but the problem is, so much of the height is lug it was a bit easy to bottom out on my 250es, but as long as I didn't give it too much gas I could go though most things. Around 26-27in would probably be ideal for 25in stock size. Don't forget gearing though, the tires don't spin/sling mud, it just paddles though it, hard to explain. They tear up grass really bad, the tires are always trying to scoop lol.

The 28's were $100 each + rims back when we bought them, prices have gone up a lot since then though. The used set I put on my 250es cost me $100 for the pair and included rims, it was a steal of a deal. Sold them to a friend of my cousin that couldn't get over how much I could go though vs his 4x4 quad

Some day I need to build a wire harness for that blaster and get the exhaust system situated. Should be fun having a twin with 49hp stock lol.

[Pierce1989]

I read your post and began doing some research. It doesn't look like the Highlifter Outlaws come in 25x12-9, and there's 2 inches between my 25x12-9s and the plastics. The trike has no suspension, so maybe 26x12-9 would work but would it make a huge difference? I don't ride on road so paying extra for a good set of 2 I think would last long. I see the good lookin ones going for $250 - $280 for the ones with the aggressive deep tread. Is this the way to go, or do the ITP mud lites for $60 - $75 each on Amazon do the same job? Hass anyone tried the Innova Mud Gears or the 2 below? The swamp is like quicksand, so I thought the deeper the tread the better but I see a lot of people saying the mud lites and mud gear do the job...

https://simpletire.com/kenda-26-12-12-085381299c1-tires?stmodel=executioner-k538&stcategory=other&sttype=atv-utv&msclkid=74318ef9539916a2d71dd50dfd4d87a3&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Finch%20Shopping%3A%2018685%20US%204&utm_term=4579328491570708&utm_content=159942%3A%20Kenda%20Executioner%20K538 %20Tires%2026x12-12%20085381299C1

http://www.traxms.com/product/SET_INTERCO-AQ-TRQ-25-9-12.html

[ps2fixer]

Yea they use large rim sizes for the outlaws, probably so there is a low chance of the rim slipping. We have sandy mud here, sometimes black sand out in the woods but similar. There was so much grip that our 350 warrior couldn't spin the tires, either it was moving forward, or doing wheelies. They are amazing fun in the snow, I drove up a ~6ft steep hill with a good 4-5 ft snow drift over it, took a few attempts, but when I was done it looked like someone snow blowed a path lol.

I know the 28in specs the best since thats the ones we bought new, top tread was 1.25in, side wall tread went to 1.5in. Tread is also scooped slightly like a paddle tire. The only time I've seen these tires load up was in thick nasty clay, but that basically doesn't exist in my area. Also for utility work (like pulling more than you really should in loose sand) can be problematic because it digs down so fast when it does spin. Dry sand I'd say is it's weakest area.

My experence goes way back before the outlaw 2 or outlaw 3 existed. The 25in tires I had used 12in rims, the 28in tires also used 12in rims. Newer ones I think use 14in+.

I can't find the artical, but when they were first introduced to the market, they were stacked up against the two or three most aggressive tires and tested in several conditions. If I remember right the outlaws were not the fastest machine though stuff, but it has the best "pull" though the muck.

Anyway, here's a couple screen caps of my 250es in some nasty muck. My dad with a 4x4 rincon wouldn't go though the same hole, nasty clay stuff. My front tire was (still is) garbage for steering, so the first thing it did was throw me to the right trying to go up the bank. At the very end I had to push a little to get up the slime hill, it was too hard/wet for the tires to grip into. My net is too crap to upload videos sadly. Vid was from Trikefest 2014, Indiana clay.

https://i.gyazo.com/8c9c325f61f4bd2c6abd7435c7d15080.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/30d551d3fcaaaa32251d3f62ed03ac62.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/b1ff971c265f31ebd88c304984442b46.jpg

Also the big thing about the 28in outlaw back then was that it actually measured 28in tall. If your tire is actually 25in and you have 2in clearance, 26 will fit no problem, 27 might squeeze by but depends how close it actually gets, might rub slightly. Could always bend fender holders etc slightly to get the clearance if needed. I'd say 26 is a pretty ideal size though because of gearing and such. One thing to remember is you'll want 25-26in tires up front too, and it needs to bee a grippy steering tire (not a mud tire) so you can control the beast. My experience with aggressive tires on a 3 wheeler is that it can sling the front tire around if it's crap for steering. Basically in the case you steer with your weight and can screw you over in some nasty stuff.

Here's a video of the outlaw3, way different size range than you're looking for, but besides being way too high gearing for the tires, that clay was some nasty stuff. Kind of funny the guy kept mentioning something about a 300 doing better. I think lighter the machine, the better the outlaws do. I suspect the large rims is to have less flotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-nq8JkFgKk

Also here's a 250es with way too big of tires lol. I'd say 28-31in would be about the max for the machine. It's floating too much to grip the bottom I think. You can see the wheelie problem though and the steering problem (driving with his weight). Makes me want to swap the 28's to my ugly 250es and remove the racks and such lol. I miss those tires so much, ever since I got into Honda the warrior has just been sitting. Need to get it fired up and checked over and sell the machine (it has 25in tires now). Probably would have to drill another set of holes in the rim for the Honda bolt pattern, unless the warrior was the same bolt pattern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YmkhvDNn00

Not trying to say outlaws are the best tire ever made, but from everything I've experienced, there's been nothing like them. Never had the money to buy another super aggressive tire to compare them myself though. Btw for clarity, both the 25in and 28in outlaws I had were the original design. By no means heavy or stiff, I guess the newer the tire design, the more it's designed for like a heavy side by side.