ATC200M countershaft questions

[BarnBoy]

Hi,

I pulled the motor out of my '84 200M to rebuild. While looking at the engine I found that the countershaft sprocket has a fair bit of play on the splines. Not enough to strip it, but I have a feeling its hammering on accel/deceleration. Question 1 is: is there a thicker sprocket or something like that to engage the rest of the good splines that I could install??

Since I am going to be rebuilding the top end, it doesn't make sense to do a hack job on this critical piece. So question 2 is: what does it take to split the cases? Do I need any special tools? Is it hard to get the transmission back together? I am pretty handy mechanically but never been this deep into an ATV motor before. I plan on documenting the process and having a build thread, as I havent found a nice thread with pictures for the ATC200 in my searches.

I'm pretty sure I have a spare countershaft, but does anyone know where I might be able to find a NOS one??

Heres a few pics. You can see the gap between the sprocket and spline teeth.
256953
256954256955256956 Also the countershaft does have a small amount of in-out movement, but no lateral play.

[Jd110]

Flywheel puller and case puller could make your job much easier. Also, the service manual and take lots of pictures to reference.

[Gabriel]

I’ve had good luck with light taps from a rubber mallet and GENTLE use of a screwdriver at the dowel pin locations. Don’t pry elsewhere, it’ll get things in a bind.
Gentle is the word.

[Scootertrash]

I finally bought a crankcase splitting tool a couple years ago.

256965

https://www.ebay.com/i/254051590853?chn=ps

[BarnBoy]

Already have the OEM Service manual downloaded. Does anyone know the thread size for the 200M flywheel puller?

Case splitter looks pretty simple....looks like even a harmonic balancer puller or similar could be used with the right metric bolts no??

Is a press needed for any of the assembly/disassembly?

Looks like many of the bearings in there are still available through Honda. Where could I find a NOS countershaft?? Or at least one used but in really good shape? Gonna check on my spare and see if its swap worthy.

[fabiodriven]

There are two on eBay right now. One looked pretty roached but this one looks pretty good.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F12 3495415768

[BarnBoy]

There are two on eBay right now. One looked pretty roached but this one looks pretty good.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F12 3495415768

Thanks for the link, but that's actually the main shaft. I need the countershaft that the sprocket mounts too.

[Jd110]

Already have the OEM Service manual downloaded. Does anyone know the thread size for the 200M flywheel puller?

Case splitter looks pretty simple....looks like even a harmonic balancer puller or similar could be used with the right metric bolts no??

Is a press needed for any of the assembly/disassembly?

Looks like many of the bearings in there are still available through Honda. Where could I find a NOS countershaft?? Or at least one used but in really good shape? Gonna check on my spare and see if its swap worthy.

Your flywheel is M14 x 1.5. This is what I used to split these:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190130/887d03d916e2d8ec955a570aac801b5a.jpg
I did tap very lightly with a rubber mallet after a little turn, only on the thicker areas, where the engine mounting bolts go through.
Worked like a charm with no possible damage to the mating surfaces. Good luck with your family heirloom!


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[fabiodriven]

Thanks for the link, but that's actually the main shaft. I need the countershaft that the sprocket mounts too.

Sorry bud!

[BarnBoy]

Your flywheel is M14 x 1.5. This is what I used to split these:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190130/887d03d916e2d8ec955a570aac801b5a.jpg
I did tap very lightly with a rubber mallet after a little turn, only on the thicker areas, where the engine mounting bolts go through.
Worked like a charm with no possible damage to the mating surfaces. Good luck with your family heirloom!


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Awesome! Thanks. I found out my motion-pro flywheel puller for the 185S actually had the right threads on the inside piece. Split the case last night on one of my spare parts bottom ends. Gears and shims started falling off inside...ahh! But looking at the diagram I should be able to get them back together. Gonna practice on this parts engine till I can get the tranny assembled, then do mine. I think I need to have the cases lay flat, and pull the left side straight off....that should help avoid most of the stuff falling out.

[Gabriel]

I made a platform to sit it in. Two 2x4’s nailed to plywood with appropriately located holes let’s the engine sit flat on its side. Easy. Worth the 5 minutes it takes to make it.


Good on you for practicing. I did the same. Be certain you can assemble it all correctly before you do any real work. It’s nothing but time well spent.

[Scootertrash]

Case splitter looks pretty simple....looks like even a harmonic balancer puller or similar could be used with the right metric bolts no??

Possibly, if the "foot" of the puller is the right size to overlap the edges of the cases. The adjustability of the tool makes it usable for many different brands of crankcases, which is why I bought one.


Is a press needed for any of the assembly/disassembly? Not that I remember, but it's been awhile since I split cases of any kind:(
been too busy.

[Scootertrash]

Thanks for the link, but that's actually the main shaft. I need the countershaft that the sprocket mounts too.

Same guy has the countershaft. I'd have him clean up the splines and send you a pic. Doesn't seem to be in too bad of shape.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-ATC-185-S-200-S-M-Transmission-Counter-Shaft-Gear-Set-Clean/123495414742?hash=item1cc0e67bd6:g:bzkAAOSwEKpb77L f:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true

[Gabriel]

Wonder what the difference in an M and an S output shaft is? I know I have one of those bouncing around here.

[fabiodriven]

Wonder what the difference in an M and an S output shaft is? I know I have one of those bouncing around here.

I'm not positive but they might be the same.

[Jd110]

Barn boy, Check partzilla. It shows it being unique to the m.


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[BarnBoy]

Thanks for the help! I will look into buying or making a splitter, don't plan on splitting many cases so I'll see if I can find one to borrow or make another puller work.

Ok so I actually have a spare 200M bottom end for parts, and another bottom end which I believe may be a 200S. And just remembered I have a 185S engine but its got water in the case so likely all rusted. The spare 200M countershaft looks pretty good, I'd say its about half as worn as my original. So its got some play but not terrible.

What I have found is that the shaft looks like its in great shape, but the wear is on the side of the spline teeth, and thats where the play occurs. I would have assumed that all the 200cc bikes would use the same countershaft, except the BR. But, you are right! Can still get the 200S shaft new, 200M has different part #. Interesting.

I believe the 200M may have shared a countershaft with the early XL200R. It appears they share the same part number. (23221-427-960 is the updated PN) Found what I believe to be an NOS shaft with correct PN for $43 online, not sure on the website though but looks legit?? actioncertifieds.top is the name, anyone ever purchased from them?

[Jd110]

I could be mistaken, but I thought partzilla showed the different or updated part numbers. I just checked again and even the Xr and xl use different numbers.
Yes, it’s possible you could make a puller, at least one that would resemble the one I used. I have one of those harmonic pullers and it was way too small. So I used that one-it’s for the tractors-you can see that metal piece I modified it with.
After you mentioned making one, I started brainstorming ideas and something like a 3/4 inch piece of plywood with a hole and bolt in middle, washer and nut under the wood, using your case bolts running through the plywood.??? Start turning the nut up. Maybe, I’m all about being resourceful.
Anyway, in your case, working on something you’ve had so long, I’d strongly suggest you keep the screwdriver put away.
Lastly, that 2-stroke engine is the 1st for me, so I’m very green, yet. Yours is a little more complicated to me. But, you have a practice engine that should be helpful. I’ll chime in if I think I’ll be helpful. You Barnboy, are the man in charge and I bet you got this!


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[BarnBoy]

I could be mistaken, but I thought partzilla showed the different or updated part numbers. I just checked again and even the Xr and xl use different numbers.
Yes, it’s possible you could make a puller, at least one that would resemble the one I used. I have one of those harmonic pullers and it was way too small. So I used that one-it’s for the tractors-you can see that metal piece I modified it with.
After you mentioned making one, I started brainstorming ideas and something like a 3/4 inch piece of plywood with a hole and bolt in middle, washer and nut under the wood, using your case bolts running through the plywood.??? Start turning the nut up. Maybe, I’m all about being resourceful.
Anyway, in your case, working on something you’ve had so long, I’d strongly suggest you keep the screwdriver put away.
Lastly, that 2-stroke engine is the 1st for me, so I’m very green, yet. Yours is a little more complicated to me. But, you have a practice engine that should be helpful. I’ll chime in if I think I’ll be helpful. You Barnboy, are the man in charge and I bet you got this!


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I looked on cheap cycle parts and XL200R has the same PN as the 200M. It had one # with a line through it, and then the new one beside it which is the one I posted. I'll check on some other websites then, that's weird.

Yeah, was.thinking about maybe plywood. Or might have my machinist friends mill a slot in some bar stock and make it. Definitely will keep the screw drivers away! But not gonna spend $60 on a simple puller. I'll post what be I use.

Appreciate the help! Looks pretty simple, only like 8 bearings in the bottom end. With practice I shouldn't have a problem....I hope :). Any input is welcome!!

[BarnBoy]

Just to finish off the discussion on case splitters....I had a machinist friend mill these arms out for me. Tacked a nut on the middle and I'm ready to roll. Sure beats the $60 Tusk splitter, and the dimensions are right @ the same.

257168

[BarnBoy]

Well, I've run into a slight possible issue. The countershaft out of my parts bike is different than the one that came out of my engine. Parts bike is 100% an '84 200M, checked and double checked the serial number. It also appears to have 2 extra grooves in the shaft, presumably for a snap ring but there wasn't any on it when I disassembled. Could Honda have used 2 different shafts on the same engine? Would anyone have a shaft for a 200M kicking around? Preferably in new or like new condition.

[BarnBoy]

Ok, looked at the shaft again and measured. It appears to be the same as the one that came out of the bike, except until the output (splined) end is 1/8" longer, and therefore sticks out from the case 1/8'' further. Is this going to be an issue with chain alignment and all that? The parts motor it came out of had an "extra" 1/8" thick washer....and the one out of my bike didnt have that. Maybe to shim it somehow?? Otherwise it looks to me like it'll work.

Anyone know why in the world there might be 2 different lengths of countershafts on one model??

This is starting to get confusing........

257490

[Gabriel]

I seriously doubt it’s gonna be a problem. Get it together and see.
You can always put some washers behind the rear sprocket.

[BarnBoy]

Well, and that might not be a bad thing to do...it would move the sprocket back a little and it would fit better on the splines.

Other thing is.... I remember Dirtcrasher saying something about a thick moly paste he used on countershaft splines? Curious to know what that was, regular grease doesent stay in there well. Maybe someone knows what type of paste to use....I thought it was some special stuff. With the right lube it should cut down on spline wear a lot.