ATC200 crank rebuild

[Gabriel]

Are there locating flats on the crank (rod) journal to ensure that the crank halves are properly timed together?

Watching guys do it on youtube, most seem to have a fixture that places things in their proper place BUT most are generic videos and not specific to the ATC 200 type cranks. If there's no way to locate it without a specific fixture, I don't wanna waste my time taking it apart. I will just have to go have it done. *sigh* DON'T want to do that but you have to do what you have to do.

I ordered a new rod, shim & bearing kit and it comes with a new journal but the picture of the journal doesn't look like what my crank does.


Thanks!!

[fabiodriven]

Most cranks that I'm aware of do not have anything locating the crank pin. This is so you can "true" the crank. All you need is a dial indicator and a set of V-blocks or a lathe and a soft hammer to true it, so I wouldn't let that deter you.

[Gabriel]

Hmmm. THAT I can do. I have some big V blocks leftover from when i worked in a machine shop. I can make a nice hammer out of a length of pipe and melt me some wheel weights for a head. Been meaning to do that anyway.

Thanks!

[morgan]

Gabriel this video made the most sense from what I’ve found i have to replace the rod on my 200x too.
https://youtu.be/6lKLKtzWPQI

[BarnBoy]

Did you buy a vesrah rod kit? Reason for rod replacement?

[Gabriel]

I’d have go log in on the desktop to see what the rod kit is.

As far as why......everything in this engine is just about toast.
If you hold the crank in one hand and use the other hand to hold the rod parallel to the ground, release the rod and let gravity do its job.....the rod will stop perpendicular to the ground....it won’t free swing more than 90 degrees without help.
I did the same test with another crank and the rod would swing almost 180 degrees from gravity alone.

I don’t trust ANYTHING in this engine. If it had been a more common model, I would have parted it out and shet canned the rest. But....200E engines ain’t too common round here.


While we talking cranks.....has anyone ever taken the oil pressure relief button apart?
This is a ‘no stone unturned’ rebuild here. It was THAT bad...yep yep

[BarnBoy]

Wow, I see. I missed out on a more or less complete 200E WITH UNCRACKED REAR PLASTICS for $75!! Really sucks, they aren't common around here either.

I don't think that relief button comes apart...does it? I don't know where you would find specs or parts for it. I guess a used crank maybe.

[barnett468]

Watching guys do it on youtube, most seem to have a fixture that places things in their proper place BUT most are generic videos and not specific to the ATC 200 type cranks. If there's no way to locate it without a specific fixture, I don't wanna waste my time taking it apart. I will just have to go have it done. *sigh* DON'T want to do that but you have to do what you have to do.


You do not need a fixture to rebuild a single cylinder crank unless there is something unusual about it.

.

[Gabriel]

There's a roll pin that can be driven out and I am assuming the assembly comes out. With no IPL for it in any of my manuals, I am hesitant to take it apart......BUT, I have a junk crank somewhere I can experiment on......now...where the he!! did I put it?

[barnett468]

There's a roll pin that can be driven out and I am assuming the assembly comes out. With no IPL for it in any of my manuals, I am hesitant to take it apart......BUT, I have a junk crank somewhere I can experiment on......now...where the he!! did I put it?

Can you post a photo?

[shortline10]

Neat video Morgan , unfortunately a Honda 200 crank would never twist and move that easily .
I have posted a few threads on Honda crank rebuilding , the most important thing is to make alignment points before disassembly , makes reassembly so much easier without guessing , also don’t forget to align oil galleys .



Gabriel this video made the most sense from what I’ve found i have to replace the rod on my 200x too.
https://youtu.be/6lKLKtzWPQI

[barnett468]

There ya go, just see if you can talk shortline10 into doing it. At least you will know it was done right.

.

[BarnBoy]

Looked at a spare crank I have, it appears thenoil pressure relief btton on the right side of the crank has a roll pin that can be driven out. If you do open it up be sure and post pics, I'm sure it's not complicated but it'd be interesting to see what's in there.

Also, I saw F.A.S.T. Racing rebuilds single cyl cranks for $100, and I have read good things about them.

[Gabriel]

SO! I have a fixture for pressing them together. Yesterday and today I made a plate to press the crank apart and I made a fixture to test runout. Some old bed rails welded together and 4 bearings bolted on for the crank to sit in....viola!

I got a brass and a lead hammer, I'm collecting my patience and crossing my fingers. LOL!!!


https://i.imgur.com/1DcOIpV.jpg

[BarnBoy]

SO! I have a fixture for pressing them together. Yesterday and today I made a plate to press the crank apart and I made a fixture to test runout. Some old bed rails welded together and 4 bearings bolted on for the crank to sit in....viola!

I got a brass and a lead hammer, I'm collecting my patience and crossing my fingers. LOL!!!


https://i.imgur.com/1DcOIpV.jpg

Painted and everything....fancy!! Looks good.

How did you remove the main bearings from the crank? Is a press required for removal/installation? I'm gonna replace those on my 200M when I'm in there.

[Gabriel]

Well......That's my junker crank I will experiment on.
It is NOT recommended but I used an aluminum wedge and a hammer and worked around the bearing until it popped off taking the gear (on one side) and the cam chain drive (on the other side) with it.

I'll take this crank apart first to learn what NOT to do before taking my good one apart. Then I will reassemble the old crank parts and indicate it in true first, again...to learn what NOT to do.

[shortline10]

The correct tool to remove the main crank bearings .

[Gabriel]

Well, there’s nothing to that oil pressure pad.
A roll pin, a spring and the pad itself.

I hope someone who KNOWS can explain to me EXACTLY what’s going on with it.
Not just it’s general function but it’s complete operation.
It’s not enough to fix things, I want to know how they work and why.

I took a small pin punch and lightly tapped the roll pin out of the crank. The spring is not particularly stout. No real fear of it flying across the shop.
There’s a plug that seems to be pressed into the crank. It won’t budge so I didn’t try to force it out.
I’ll post pics later when I can get to me desktop but there’s really nothing to see.

[BarnBoy]

The correct tool to remove the main crank bearings .

Ah ok. Looking at a junk crank I have it hardly looks like there is room to get the splitter in there?? Can the bearings be reinstalled by heating the bearing and freezing the crank?

[BarnBoy]

Well, there’s nothing to that oil pressure pad.
A roll pin, a spring and the pad itself.

I hope someone who KNOWS can explain to me EXACTLY what’s going on with it.
Not just it’s general function but it’s complete operation.
It’s not enough to fix things, I want to know how they work and why.

I took a small pin punch and lightly tapped the roll pin out of the crank. The spring is not particularly stout. No real fear of it flying across the shop.
There’s a plug that seems to be pressed into the crank. It won’t budge so I didn’t try to force it out.
I’ll post pics later when I can get to me desktop but there’s really nothing to see.

Interesting. Yeah would still be cool to see what it looks like. Did you find any junk inside there?

[Gabriel]

They are tight, but not ridiculous.
You could toss the crank in the freezer overnight and probably tap the bearing on fairly easy.
I cut a length of heavy wall tubing that slips over the crank to press them back on.

Getting them off with the aluminum wedge I used (bad idea and the wrong way to do it!) they were not difficult.

[fabiodriven]

Ah ok. Looking at a junk crank I have it hardly looks like there is room to get the splitter in there?? Can the bearings be reinstalled by heating the bearing and freezing the crank?

I bet they would drop right on if you did that. Shortline could probably tell you for certain. This is probably better than pressing them on I would say.

[ironchop]

...... Can the bearings be reinstalled by heating the bearing and freezing the crank?

Edit for wrong advice... See below



Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[fabiodriven]

I would put the bearings in the case halves and then take the case halves over the end of the crank



Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

That's the only way I've done it. Case halves in the oven and bearings in the freezer. They fall right in.

[shortline10]

On the 200 series cranks the bearings are press fit on the crank and they slide in the cases real easy , if your talking 2 stroke motors then the main bearings are installed in the cases first .

[ironchop]

On the 200 series cranks the bearings are press fit on the crank and slide in the cases real easy , if your talking 2 stroke motors then the main bearings are installed in the cases first .I learned something new. Thanks Mike

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[fabiodriven]

I learned something new. Thanks Mike

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

Same here.

[Gabriel]

Not to mention the cam chain drive and oil pump drive gear are pressed on after the bearings are in place.

[Scootertrash]

Ah ok. Looking at a junk crank I have it hardly looks like there is room to get the splitter in there?? Can the bearings be reinstalled by heating the bearing and freezing the crank?

The tool shortline posted is tapered to slip under the outer bearing race as you tighten the nuts evenly. This gets bearing removal started (most of the time) by lifting on the outer race to get the inner race moving. This is why you NEVER reuse a bearing that has been removed by putting a side load on one of the races.

257276

I typically use the hot/cold method to install bearings, as well as lubing the shaft prior to insertion *cough* :naughty:. It just makes things go a little smoother.

Work smarter not harder. ;)

[Scootertrash]

I learned something new. Thanks Mike

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

Me three! :beer

[Scootertrash]

The correct tool to remove the main crank bearings .

What brand separator is that? I'm looking at the Pittsburgh one at Harbor Freight since Pittsburgh has a lifetime guarantee.

[shortline10]

No clue on the brand , bought it a long time ago .
The Pittsburgh should do the job !




What brand separator is that? I'm looking at the Pittsburgh one at Harbor Freight since Pittsburgh has a lifetime guarantee.

[BarnBoy]

The tool shortline posted is tapered to slip under the outer bearing race as you tighten the nuts evenly. This gets bearing removal started (most of the time) by lifting on the outer race to get the inner race moving. This is why you NEVER reuse a bearing that has been removed by putting a side load on one of the races.

257276

I typically use the hot/cold method to install bearings, as well as lubing the shaft prior to insertion *cough* :naughty:. It just makes things go a little smoother.

Work smarter not harder. ;)
Ahh, I see. How would one go about getting the right side bearing off on a 200 model though? With the oil pressure pad on that side I wouldn't really want to push on it??

Is there anything wrong with lubing the shaft? Make sense to me, though you wouldn't want it to turn on the crank obviously.

[Scootertrash]

By oil pressure pad do you mean 12/13 in the pic below?

I don't have one right in front of me, but if it were me, I'd tap or press out #17 and remove the pad and spring to see if it would be possible to press on the shaft then. If not I'd probably use a thick washer and a socket. Put the washer inside the socket, place it over the end of the shaft and then press it off. The thick washer, or multiple washers if neccesary, should protect the end of the crankshaft.

257279

ETA: Nope, nuthin' wrong with lubin' the shaft, just ask glamy:naughty::lol::Bounce:Bounce

You may not have picked up on it barnboy, but "lubing the shaft " was a tiny bit of double entendre. ;)



ETA@: I just looked at a good pic of that end and I would be removing that pin, spring, and pad to do a thorough cleaning anyway. :beer

[Gabriel]

How the phuk did we get here from rebuilding a crankshaft? mymint87

[roostin atc]

Hey Gabe .......are we gonna build our cranks today ..........what size is your crank ?..........is it a 200 series .........or maybe the big daddy 250 series ...........or is it a 300ex series ............or perhaps it`s 400ex series ..........butt thats a quad ......silly me...........you really don`t want to be a quad ...........only a Mr. Bungle would want a quad ........is`nt that right ..........Gabe
Buckethead is disappointed Glamy. You forgot the lil cranks. 50 70 90 110. Get some KFC and reflect.

Shep is not crossing the Mississippi.

[Gabriel]

What the!!!!!!!!

Did I really just get this lucky? I’m having a hard time believing it.

I used a good engine assembly lube and pressed my crank together.
The rod to crank side clearance is .0025
I figure it will loosen up a little as it breaks in and the thrust washers wear a little.

So...I get it in my little indicating fixture, zero out my indicator and it doesn’t move.
Hold on. I’m doing something wrong. Get out my flashlight and look closer. My eyes suck.
My indicator is .001 reading and I can see an ever so slight movement. So I go dig out my Interapid test indicator and ditch this cheap travel indicator. It’s tenths reading and will REALLY tell the truth.
Setting it on the furthest out machined journal I get 6 tenths runout.
.0006!!! Uhhhh, I’m calling this good!
No adjustments. Straight out of the press.

I had to have done something wrong. Nothing ever works out the first time. So, get the air hose and check my oil passageway. Squirt some penetrating oil in and hit the air. Oil squirts out around the sides of the rod. So that’s good

F me! Did I get lucky or what!?!?!

.....wait, NO! I’m just that good right? .....yeah, I’m just that good. Lol!!!
I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut ever once in a while.

[Gabriel]

....ohh yeah, it’s a brand new SPI rod, bearing, thrust washers & crank journal.
Set me back just shy of $40 on eBay.

I am curious about this crank journal I just installed though.
The factory one had no holes in the side. This one does and has some cup shaped inserts pressed in the holes on each side.
The cups have a VERY tiny pin hole drilled in them. This is going to shed oil out the sides of the crank. Not much as the holes are only a few thousandths but I wonder how that will effect oil pressure?


https://i.imgur.com/IHtgn5G.jpg

[El Camexican]

How the phuk did we get here from rebuilding a crankshaft? mymint87

This is nothing. Tell Glamy you plan to stroke your crank and he might just blow your rod.

[Scootertrash]

How the phuk did we get here from rebuilding a crankshaft? mymint87

A dirty mind is a turribl thing to waste........:naughty:;) :lol:

[Scootertrash]

What the!!!!!!!!

Did I really just get this lucky? I’m having a hard time believing it.

I used a good engine assembly lube and pressed my crank together.
The rod to crank side clearance is .0025
I figure it will loosen up a little as it breaks in and the thrust washers wear a little.

So...I get it in my little indicating fixture, zero out my indicator and it doesn’t move.
Hold on. I’m doing something wrong. Get out my flashlight and look closer. My eyes suck.
My indicator is .001 reading and I can see an ever so slight movement. So I go dig out my Interapid test indicator and ditch this cheap travel indicator. It’s tenths reading and will REALLY tell the truth.
Setting it on the furthest out machined journal I get 6 tenths runout.
.0006!!! Uhhhh, I’m calling this good!
No adjustments. Straight out of the press.

I had to have done something wrong. Nothing ever works out the first time. So, get the air hose and check my oil passageway. Squirt some penetrating oil in and hit the air. Oil squirts out around the sides of the rod. So that’s good

F me! Did I get lucky or what!?!?!

.....wait, NO! I’m just that good right? .....yeah, I’m just that good. Lol!!!
I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut ever once in a while.

Doncha just luv it when chit goes right the first time?:D

[Scootertrash]

F me!

Careful! glamy's fixin' ta get sweet on ya!:naughty::lol:

[barnett468]

The rod to crank side clearance is .0025 it’s a brand new SPI rod, bearing, thrust washers & crank journal.

That's a little tighter than I would make it, especially with an aftermarket rod.



I figure it will loosen up a little as it breaks in and the thrust washers wear a little.



I prefer to not have parts make their own clearances by wearing metal away.

I would use a very good oil with that tight clearance.

[Gabriel]

I can try to loosen it but no way it would ever run this true again.

[barnett468]

I can try to loosen it but no way it would ever run this true again.

Crank trueness is irrelevant if the rod seizes, and it is certainly possible to get it to run at least close to what it currently is. This being said, I'm not saying that it will definitely seize, or that you should definitely widen the clearance, and it may be just fine, especially if you don't plan to rev the bejesus out of it, but I for one would seriously consider increasing the clearance as I would prefer to have a greater margin of safety if it was available to me.

[Scootertrash]

What does the Manual say the tolerance should be?

[Gabriel]

What does the Manual say the tolerance should be?

Manual says .05mm - .30mm which is .002-.012

That seems like a BIG amount of variance.

I checked it again for good measure and I can with a mild bit of force get a .003 feeler in there. That's within spec and I am going to run it.

[BarnBoy]

I would put it in the middle of spec if it was me. 0.006" should be great.

[fabiodriven]

If I were you I'd have Glamy measure your crank.

[barnett468]

Again, that is within spec for an ORIGINAL honda rod, and that is still on the tight side and would likely be covered under the warranty if it seized when the vehicle was new, but you seem to know best.

[Gabriel]

Again, that is within spec for an ORIGINAL honda rod, and that is still on the tight side and would likely be covered under the warranty if it seized when the vehicle was new, but you seem to know best.

No I certainly don’t! Lol!!

It does make sense to have a little more clearance. I’m just being a whiny betch about it because it’s running true as is.
Hopefully I can put a little pressure on it and not “move it”.
Last thing I want is to regret being lazy. Been there. Done that.
I will see if I can get it to .005-.006 without mucking it up.

Thanks guys.

[barnett468]

[QUOTE=Gabriel;1491862]
I will see if I can get it to .005-.006 without mucking it up.[QUOTE]

Do you have a strong plate with a slot in it to press it apart some?

[Gabriel]

I do. I made one just for pressing it apart. I think I will set it up in the press (when i can get back to the press) with a dial indicator zeroed on the crank journal to monitor movement. Seems the safest route.

[morgan]

I realize you’ve already done the crank, but do you have pictures of your fixtures in use? How thick is the plate you made to separate the crank?

[Gabriel]

Pics on page 1
Plate is 3/8” thick