Alright Barnett....I need some of that Kawi expertise

[BarnBoy]

Picked this up the other day for $200. '83 Kawasaki KLT250C. Totally complete, but obviously it's been sitting for practically ever. Pulled the plug and ran a compression test dry, got 110 psi. Put a little ATF down the cyl and got 140-145 psi after it settled down.

Problem is I have no spark. Where do I start? Have been using jumper cables straight to starter to crank it. Tried connecting them to the battery leads and don't get anything. Maybe I have a kill switch keeping it from sparking? It's different than the Hondas I usually mess with....any chance you (or someone else?) could get me a wiring diagram?

Has factory speedometer which is cool....idk if that was a rare option or not. Reads 1,798.6 original miles. Overall looks pretty solid and I think it ought to run.

Thanks for the help!

[BarnBoy]

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[barnett468]

Picked this up the other day for $200. '83 Kawasaki KLT250C. Totally complete, but obviously it's been sitting for practically ever. Pulled the plug and ran a compression test dry, got 110 psi. Put a little ATF down the cyl and got 140-145 psi after it settled down.

Problem is I have no spark. Where do I start? Have been using jumper cables straight to starter to crank it. Tried connecting them to the battery leads and don't get anything. Maybe I have a kill switch keeping it from sparking? It's different than the Hondas I usually mess with....any chance you (or someone else?) could get me a wiring diagram?

Has factory speedometer which is cool....idk if that was a rare option or not. Reads 1,798.6 original miles. Overall looks pretty solid and I think it ought to run.

Thanks for the help!

Oh, I definitely don't have a monopoly on kawi electrical knowledge, but all bikes and trikes have one of the 4 common systems, and they are similar, so you can use the same basic diagnostic procedures etc for the klt as you would for a honda or other bike with a similar style system. Unfortunately I don't have a diagram to can post a photo of, but there appears to be some online but you have to sign up to something to get them free for the first month etc. Below is the link to one of them.

http://10.artuj.tpk-diningroom.de/h7/klt-250-wiring-diagram.html


A few of the basic procedures that you may already know are the following:

Park bike in a low light area when checking for spark.

Use a new spark plug or one that is known to be good.

Remove the spark plug boot then cut around 5/16" off the end of the plug wire if it is long enough, then reinstall the boot.

Check for any sign of voltage by putting a screw driver in the plug cap then holding the screw driver ad engine wit the same hand then turn the engine over with the key on and kill switch in the run position with the other hand.

Check the neutral finder indicator switch with a volt meter or continuity tester to see if it is working properly.

If the bike was sitting outside for a while or in a humid shed etc, make sure all the connections are clen, including the ground wires, one of which I think is mounted to, or near, the ignition coil bracket.

Make sure the kill switch works or bypass it for now. Without a wiring diagram you obviously need to use a continuity tester to isolate the wires for all the controls on the switch. I then write down what they are on a sheet of paper and sometimes also write it on a piece of masking tape then tape it to the end of the wires by the connectors.

Check the coil with an ohm meter if you know how.

Make sure none of the wires are broken.

.

[BarnBoy]

Ok, wiring looks pretty intact so far. Doesn't appear to have been messed with. Supposedly it was running fine when parked (like everything right) but nobody parks a good bike unless there's a reason. Usually.

Thanks for the link.

There is no voltage whatsoever. Held with my hand and grounded to block. Nada. Will bypass kill switch and neutral indicator tomorrow.

What are the specs for the coil? I'll look in the manual too if I can find one.

Are replacement coils and CDI's still available for these old Kawis?

[BarnBoy]

Also...Barnett, what are your thoughts on these Kawi 250 trikes? Are they reliable/well made (worth fixing lol)??? Common bits that go wrong??? I've heard CDI's can be problematic???

I assume you must have a fair bit of experience with them, being a Kawasaki engineer and all.

[MonroeMike]

...What are the specs for the coil? I'll look in the manual too if I can find one...

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/126871-KLT200-250-Service-Data

https://threewheelermanuals.com/kawazaki

[BarnBoy]

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/126871-KLT200-250-Service-Data

https://threewheelermanuals.com/kawazaki

Aha! Thank you sir! Hadn't had a chance to search yet.

[barnett468]

Also...Barnett, what are your thoughts on these Kawi 250 trikes? Are they reliable/well made (worth fixing lol)??? Common bits that go wrong??? I've heard CDI's can be problematic???

I assume you must have a fair bit of experience with them, being a Kawasaki engineer and all.

OMG...now you are causing me to relive old nightmares, lol. I do in fact have a fair bit of experience with them because I did every second of the testing on that model, and I can tell you that they are nearly indestructible and it never died or broke anything during any of the tests which were fairly extreme, like riding it up and down a freezing cold, 100 yard stretch of a 2 foot deep rock strewn river ever fkng day for 5 days straight in the middle of the winter, then riding it for days on end on a small motocross type track that had small jumps and big bumps etc, then towing around a 300 lb trailer for hours on end after I had to shovel it full of dirt and then un-shovel it after the test, then towing our big 8,000 lb box van in the R & D parking lot etc. I hated that fkng bike so bad that I really wanted to break it, but the muther flocker just kept on running so I had to keep on riding it. :lol:

As far as anything specific being problematic back in day, there wasn't anything whatsoever, however, years down the road I would be inspecting the gas tank for gunk, and the fuel pump might be the first thing that needs attention besides the usual fuel lines and brake shoes, and the brake shoe actuating arms and brake pedal pivots needing grease etc.

[BarnBoy]

OMG...now you are causing me to relive old nightmares, lol. I do in fact have a fair bit of experience with them because I did every second of the testing on that model, and I can tell you that they are nearly indestructible and it never died or broke anything during any of the tests which were fairly extreme, like riding it up and down a freezing cold, 100 yard stretch of a 2 foot deep rock strewn river ever fkng day for 5 days straight in the middle of the winter, then riding it for days on end on a small motocross type track that had small jumps and big bumps etc, then towing around a 300 lb trailer for hours on end after I had to shovel it full of dirt and then un-shovel it after the test, then towing our big 8,000 lb box van in the R & D parking lot etc. I hated that fkng bike so bad that I really wanted to break it, but the muther flocker just kept on running so I had to keep on riding it. :lol:

As far as anything specific being problematic back in day, there wasn't anything whatsoever, however, years down the road I would be inspecting the gas tank for gunk, and the fuel pump might be the first thing that needs attention besides the usual fuel lines and brake shoes, and the brake shoe actuating arms and brake pedal pivots needing grease etc.

Man, that's some crazy stuff. How did it do in the deep water? I noticed it seems to pull air from the bottom of the air box which seems kinda dumb.

Also, when I shake the CDI am I supposed to hear stuff rattling around inside? Lol. I can't get good readings off it, a few readings I could get were a few hundred ohms out of spec. Also the stator coil read 450 ohms and spec is like 570-800 something ohms.

I disconnected the kill switch and key switch. Kill switch was super nasty too, really rusty and muddy. No luck, can't get any fire out of it. I know it's in neutral, though I can't the the bulb to light. Ignition coil tested good, so I know that's not it.

Are CDI's something that is repairable? Or still available aftermarket? Appears pretty cheap compared to my Hondas, and not waterproof. 258544

[ps2fixer]

@Barnett

That testing almost sounds like my family's daily use of our Hondas. I've loaded my ATC200ES Big Red with so much brush on a 8x8 trailer that I had to jump to throw more on it, something like 12ft tall load of green brush stacked very carefully with some side supports. Also it was a pretty muddy trail and the load was as big as the hole in the woods for the trail lol. I made atleast 5 or so loads like that clearing the brush out in the area. Those engines don't have the greatest cylinder for cooling either so I'm sure it was running pretty hot, no real oil filter, just a simple screen, etc.

Probably less dramatic but the TRX450S my dad has, has hauled a LOT of sand via trailer, about a yard 3ft x 3ft x 3ft square per load. When we have a machine for work, we use it like a tractor, even though it's just a little machine lol. I never had personal experience with much of anything else, just 2nd hand stuff like Suzuki that seem to always need rings, and the 350 warrior my dad bought had a ton of starter problems since new (after like 3 or 4 starters we found one that was noisy but worked). Not bashing or anything, just reminded me of the abuse I do on machines lol.





More on topic, I'm not super strong with the Kawi, only have had a big horn 350 that I want to use the engine in an atv, very impressive torque for a 2 stroke. Anyway, 83 KLT250 on partzilla comes up as the C1 model which is nick named as a Prairie. Anyway, I have the wire diagram pulled up, but I have take a bit to wrap my head around it just because I'm used to the Honda wire diagrams. BTW I attached the wire diagram below pulled from the service manual.

Still letting it sink in a bit more lol, side note, 110 psi, then jumping up to 140psi with some atf suggests the rings are having a lot of blow by, might be a good time to replace the rings. Clearly you'd want to get spark first though. I couldn't find a spec for what the compression test should be giving but the engine spec is 9.3:1 compression, so pretty high compression stock, so 140psi or so sounds about the right number if that was the dry test.

Alright, a little has clicked with the wire diagram, but man it's a bit of a pain to follow. If I'm understanding things right, the CDI is DC powered, and the ignition coil always has power ran to it (with switch on) and the CDI breaks the ground side to make it spark like the old car ignition systems. This might mean you need a good battery for the machine to run, so make sure it has a good battery charged up to around 12.6v after sitting.

I suspect the first thing we should focus on is to get the system working the proper way with out bypassing the ignition switch and safety system. This is kind of my first "deep dive" into the kawi wiring, so I'll try my best to be accurate. If you have a multi meter and a basic understanding how to use it, that would be super great.

First thing first is to check the fuses on the machine. I can't really say where they are, but based on a Honda, there should be one near the battery for the charging system and power pulled from the battery, and the other two likely in some fuse holder, on Honda's it's normally near the neck area. Multi meter test for the fuse is remove the fuse and OHM test the two sides of the fuse, 0 ohms or dead short is good.

The next thing I'd want to check is the ignition switch, I have no clue how reliable they are, but the function of it is documented well. There's 3 wires coming off from it, looks like a brown, white, and red/white. With the switch off, no wires should have connection to each other (OHM test again with a multi meter), with it to the first On spot it should connect brown with white, and with it on the second On spot (run + lights I think), it connects all the wires together.

I suspect to poke at those tests and see what you find and let us know what your results are. If you don't have a multi meter, one of the like $6 ones on ebay work alright, I can look up the ones I bought for a project for you to get. Might not be super crazy accurate, but most test's don't need to be 100% perfect, just kind of yes or no, or high vs low resistance etc, we aren't building circuits here lol.

Good luck with the diag work, let me know if you need help with the multi meter, or anything else. Since I don't know these machines very well, I can't really give test light instructions.

[barnett468]

Man, that's some crazy stuff. How did it do in the deep water?

Never missed a beat, so I had to put my cold wet boots on every single morning and do it again.



Also, when I shake the CDI am I supposed to hear stuff rattling around inside? Lol.

ummm...it's really best if you don't hear anything. :lol:

Is yours metal on the back side?



I can't get good readings off it, a few readings I could get were a few hundred ohms out of spec.

Yeah, I really don't think that you can thoroughly test the CDI's even though there are instructions for testing it in the manual, but member rubbersalt may know.



Also the stator coil read 450 ohms and spec is like 570-800 something ohms.

Even though it is out of spec, it should still easily generate enough voltage to get spark.



I disconnected the kill switch and key switch. Kill switch was super nasty too, really rusty and muddy. No luck, can't get any fire out of it. I know it's in neutral, though I can't the the bulb to light. Ignition coil tested good, so I know that's not it.

So you have power to the neutral light but the bulb will not turn on?

It now sounds like it was left out in the rain for years on end, so every connector should definitely be cleaned as I suggested. Also, a volt meter can show 12 volts but it may still not turn the light on if the connections are dirty. I know it seems like if the connections were dirty, it shouldn't show any voltage but that is definitely not the case.



Are CDI's something that is repairable? Or still available aftermarket? Appears pretty cheap compared to my Hondas, and not waterproof.

Unfortunately I can not see your photos because the moderators have blocked me from viewing photos in most formats, lol.

Member rubbersalt may be able to tel you if it is repairable, however, even if he can repair it you are likely better off buying a good used one if you can find one.

If I recall correctly, member KBONLY had the info on how to wire one particular cheap $5.00 cdi to some of the hondas to make them work, and I'm guessing that the same thing could be done to the Kawi, but I for one have no idea how to do it.

[ps2fixer]

Here's the photo Barnett, it's pretty large so I'll just leave it as a link.

https://i.ibb.co/Hp43JfY/KIMG3809.jpg



That kill switch looks pretty bad, does it even move? The wire diagram I don't fully grasp in the kill switch area, based on the photo and taking some guesses about the system, I'm guessing that for run the brown and red wire need to be connected together, and kill is disconnected. If you can ohm test it and see if run or off is connected and the opposite is disconnected, that would let us know if it's at least functioning. I'd love the data so I can learn more about these diagrams.

If I can get enough notes together on the lighting switches and kill switch and such, I might be able to help source some sort of OEM replacement parts or aftermarket parts for other machines. My big thing lately has been modding parts intended for one machine, but making it work on say older machines like the 3 wheelers and such. Sadly a lot of info for non-Honda machines is lacking, and I'm unsure of some meanings on the wire diagrams, or just the details aren't there.

Anyway, bypassing a kill switch is generally pretty simple if we can figure out what it's normal function is for run (shorted or open connection on the two wires).

[barnett468]

Here's the photo Barnett, it's pretty large so I'll just leave it as a link.

https://i.ibb.co/Hp43JfY/KIMG3809.jpg



Thanks, that works.

[barnett468]

Based upon the condition of your switch, I'm betting that the engine cylinder is rusty also.

I would drain the engine oil and see if it has water in it, if you haven't already.

You have a very long road to hoe in front of you, and possibly a fairly expensive one.

[ps2fixer]

Oh forgot to upload the first post images. Machine doesn't look super horrible, but it probably did sit outside for a long time. Hard to really say what kind of condition it is in. I always forget the basic things first, yea oil should be checked for water first (it settles in the bottom and cranking it makes it look white/milky), also want to make sure the oil level is correct too, over full can be excess gas in the oil (carb flooded into the cyl and leaked into the oil), or water, and low could be a sign of a slow oil leak or burning oil.

After sorting that, personally I'd see what it would take to get the electrical system working and if you're still looking at fixing it, conciser options for the engine. Personally, I'd probably go after fixing on a budget, and since it's cranking freely I'd hope the internals would be fine to be fired up after the electrical system is sorted. After that I'd make sure it moves and such and get a feel for what it might need. Pretty sure it needs rings, some people just run engines even if they smoke, it's a cheap part, but taking it apart can revel some expensive needs (bore, new piston, etc). Blindly running it as is would be a risk, could be fine, could blow up next week. Not trying to be a downer or anything, if you got it cheap, and are not super invested in the you must fix it to 100%, maybe get it running on the cheap and have some fun with it with min work put into it, and slowly work on saving money up for the possible higher cost repairs. It seems to be in fair shape, so just running I'm sure you'd make a fair profit on it, and worst case if the blows up, there's people out there that need parts.

Anyway, looking at the photos, it's defo a unique designed machine. If I saw that in my area for $200 I would have jumped on it too lol.

Barnett here's the first posts pics:

https://ibb.co/gdZC3Z8
https://ibb.co/gD3T1DG
https://ibb.co/4SKpNbW
https://ibb.co/Xp30M2k
https://ibb.co/CwBbz9s

[big specht]

Using a battery charger will screw with ignition system. I’ve been there done that. Using jumper cables and a battery is the better way to go. And like has been said CDI’s are known to be bad on these bikes

[ps2fixer]

That sucks about the CDI's being known to be bad, but even the Honda ones are failing quite often. Capacitors aren't really meant to last like 35 years though, their normal life is like 20 years for a good brand, like 3-5 years for the crappy ones, aka most the modern tvs and cheaper larger electronics any more. I'd rather buy a high end computer monitor than something marketed as a tv any more. Hook ups are effectively the same, just might not have built in speakers which sound horrible anyway.

I've done a bit of the CDI testing stuff on the Honda machines, all of them are AC based CDI systems, this machine appears to be DC which I'm not used to working with. If I had access to a running machine to validate how exactly the wiring was setup and such, I could probably find some Chinese knock off CDI that would make the spark plug fire, who knows if the timing would be right or not though. I've poked at the idea of building CDI's from nothing, but haven't had time to learn more on the electronics side of things and get a bare bones test model built. If I ever do, I'll defo remember Kawi and the other brand of machines, but first target is Honda since I understand them the best and of course they have a huge market.

BTW, it was asked before if the CDI is repairable, the answer would be yes, but it's going to take someone that understands how to repair something at the circuit board level, and most are epoxy filled, so a real nightmare just to get to the board. It's probably easier to find a NOS one than someone that would be able to repair it, and I'm sure there isn't many NOS ones out there. I've toyed with that stuff a bit and took a Chinese CDI apart, but I basically had to hammer it apart and I killed it at the same time.

[BarnBoy]

Never missed a beat, so I had to put my cold wet boots on every single morning and do it again.




ummm...it's really best if you don't hear anything. :lol:

Is yours metal on the back side?




Yeah, I really don't think that you can thoroughly test the CDI's even though there are instructions for testing it in the manual, but member rubbersalt may know.




Even though it is out of spec, it should still easily generate enough voltage to get spark.




So you have power to the neutral light but the bulb will not turn on?

It now sounds like it was left out in the rain for years on end, so every connector should definitely be cleaned as I suggested. Also, a volt meter can show 12 volts but it may still not turn the light on if the connections are dirty. I know it seems like if the connections were dirty, it shouldn't show any voltage but that is definitely not the case.




Unfortunately I can not see your photos because the moderators have blocked me from viewing photos in most formats, lol.

Member rubbersalt may be able to tel you if it is repairable, however, even if he can repair it you are likely better off buying a good used one if you can find one.

If I recall correctly, member KBONLY had the info on how to wire one particular cheap $5.00 cdi to some of the hondas to make them work, and I'm guessing that the same thing could be done to the Kawi, but I for one have no idea how to do it.

Yeah I figured I probably shouldn't hear anything lol.

I haven't checked for power to the light, but with the bike in neutral and jumper cables hooked up to the battery cables none of the electrics worked. Only way I cranked it was by putting 12v directly to the starter.

I'm actually low key impressed with the electrical connections I've messed with so far. They are so freaking tight that it's a real pain to unplug, but when you do they look brand new. That said I have only messed with a few of them. But yes, I think it sat for a very long time.

I found some cheap @ $30 Chinese CDI that said it worked with the klt250 and ktm300. Might be work a shot??? IDK.

[BarnBoy]

Oh forgot to upload the first post images. Machine doesn't look super horrible, but it probably did sit outside for a long time. Hard to really say what kind of condition it is in. I always forget the basic things first, yea oil should be checked for water first (it settles in the bottom and cranking it makes it look white/milky), also want to make sure the oil level is correct too, over full can be excess gas in the oil (carb flooded into the cyl and leaked into the oil), or water, and low could be a sign of a slow oil leak or burning oil.

After sorting that, personally I'd see what it would take to get the electrical system working and if you're still looking at fixing it, conciser options for the engine. Personally, I'd probably go after fixing on a budget, and since it's cranking freely I'd hope the internals would be fine to be fired up after the electrical system is sorted. After that I'd make sure it moves and such and get a feel for what it might need. Pretty sure it needs rings, some people just run engines even if they smoke, it's a cheap part, but taking it apart can revel some expensive needs (bore, new piston, etc). Blindly running it as is would be a risk, could be fine, could blow up next week. Not trying to be a downer or anything, if you got it cheap, and are not super invested in the you must fix it to 100%, maybe get it running on the cheap and have some fun with it with min work put into it, and slowly work on saving money up for the possible higher cost repairs. It seems to be in fair shape, so just running I'm sure you'd make a fair profit on it, and worst case if the blows up, there's people out there that need parts.

Anyway, looking at the photos, it's defo a unique designed machine. If I saw that in my area for $200 I would have jumped on it too lol.

Barnett here's the first posts pics:

https://ibb.co/gdZC3Z8
https://ibb.co/gD3T1DG
https://ibb.co/4SKpNbW
https://ibb.co/Xp30M2k
https://ibb.co/CwBbz9s

Dumb thing doesn't even have a dipstick lol. Just a fill plug and a sight glass on the clutch case. Honestly I'm impressed thus far at the engine condition. It doesn't have that much time on it really, no signs of oil leaks, etc. Spark plug looked very good, little bit of carbon but very good considering. Had 110 psi when I tested compression, before doing anything. Put some ATF in there and it's settled right around 140 psi. Oil should help free things up. I can see both valves moving no problem. Also they look pretty clean through the spark plug hole.

I'd put money on it firing right up with spark. I've messed with a lot of small engines and this is in better shape than a bunch I've got going again.

Yeah, as far as fixing to 100%....depends on the bike. I've got a 200M I'm doing that to, but it's been in my family since new so it's sentimental. For $200 I'll get er running as cheap as possible, fix what it really needs, throw some cheap tires on and send it. If it turns out good maybe put some more time into it and make it nicer. It's supposed to be a low budget trike to mess around with.

I'd almost wager it won't need rings.....but it's definitely possible. Compression did go up with oil. But there are.no signs of burning oil at all. Will have to see when running. I wonder if I could even get rings still?

Yeah sadly there's not much info out there on these bikes, but hopefully I'll be able to find everything I need. Appreciate the help from this site.

[ps2fixer]

You'd just need the sizes for the rings, there's plenty of aftermarket companies out there that make rings to have the size you need. The test for bad rings is dry compression test, then add a little oil, if there's a large difference, then the rings are bad. Basically the oil is filling in the gap and making the compression come up because of the better seal. I suspect new the engine was around 150-160psi or so, it's quite a high compression engine at 9.3:1. The 350x for example is what I'd call sport/high output, and it's only 8.5:1 compression and compression test spec for it is 178psi.

Engines will run on like 90psi compression, that's like 7:1 or something (lot of factors but you get my point). Compression sort of translates into power, if you're leaking, you're not seeing the potential the engine has to go once it is running. Normally compression specs are around 10-15psi +/-, so 110 to 140 is 30, clearly it's out of spec unless you put a lot of atv in and it's taking up all the air room (the wet test is just enough to get the rings wet).

I'm sure if you get the electrical sorted it will fire up and run pretty well too, just when things get opened up, problems sometimes show their face, if you don't look, it doesn't make it go away, it just stops the fun unexpectedly.

I hope it doesn't have a broken ring, I had a suzuki 4 stroke motorcycle with a broken ring, thing smoked as much as a 2 stroke lol. You don't happen to have a bore scope, or bore camera do you? Could check the cylinder walls to see if you can see any wear spots. I'd assume it's just normal ring wear though. 1700 miles seems pretty low, but who knows what kind of miles they were, road miles is like nothing, but if it was all in muddy trails, it might be plumb worn out. I suspect it's probably pretty good overall though, just sat way too long and low compression besides the electrical.

Also, low compression doesn't directly mean burning oil, and an engine can burn oil and not build up a massive carbon buildup on the spark plug if it's tuned well. My oil burning 350x engine had a clean spark plug, while tight 200ES engines that don't smoke are carboned up so bad the plug is fouled (too much gas in the mix).

Anyway, I suspect your engine is a bit more similar to a 200x, which is 9.6:1 compression and compression test spec is 164psi, the opposite end of the same basic engine design, a atc185 is 8:1 compression and spec is 156psi + or - 14 (so min is 142 according to the spec).

ATF is a good cleaning agent for engines, some people like to add a qt to their engine oil to clean the engine out. Same with the gas tank, it helps clean the injectors and such, not sure if it's O2 sensor safe though. If you run across an engine that's locked up, diesel works well to penetrate and mix a little atf for lub should do well. Sounds like your valves and such are working fine though since the compression test came back with something high enough to run with.

[BarnBoy]

@Barnett

That testing almost sounds like my family's daily use of our Hondas. I've loaded my ATC200ES Big Red with so much brush on a 8x8 trailer that I had to jump to throw more on it, something like 12ft tall load of green brush stacked very carefully with some side supports. Also it was a pretty muddy trail and the load was as big as the hole in the woods for the trail lol. I made atleast 5 or so loads like that clearing the brush out in the area. Those engines don't have the greatest cylinder for cooling either so I'm sure it was running pretty hot, no real oil filter, just a simple screen, etc.

Probably less dramatic but the TRX450S my dad has, has hauled a LOT of sand via trailer, about a yard 3ft x 3ft x 3ft square per load. When we have a machine for work, we use it like a tractor, even though it's just a little machine lol. I never had personal experience with much of anything else, just 2nd hand stuff like Suzuki that seem to always need rings, and the 350 warrior my dad bought had a ton of starter problems since new (after like 3 or 4 starters we found one that was noisy but worked). Not bashing or anything, just reminded me of the abuse I do on machines lol.





More on topic, I'm not super strong with the Kawi, only have had a big horn 350 that I want to use the engine in an atv, very impressive torque for a 2 stroke. Anyway, 83 KLT250 on partzilla comes up as the C1 model which is nick named as a Prairie. Anyway, I have the wire diagram pulled up, but I have take a bit to wrap my head around it just because I'm used to the Honda wire diagrams. BTW I attached the wire diagram below pulled from the service manual.

Still letting it sink in a bit more lol, side note, 110 psi, then jumping up to 140psi with some atf suggests the rings are having a lot of blow by, might be a good time to replace the rings. Clearly you'd want to get spark first though. I couldn't find a spec for what the compression test should be giving but the engine spec is 9.3:1 compression, so pretty high compression stock, so 140psi or so sounds about the right number if that was the dry test.

Alright, a little has clicked with the wire diagram, but man it's a bit of a pain to follow. If I'm understanding things right, the CDI is DC powered, and the ignition coil always has power ran to it (with switch on) and the CDI breaks the ground side to make it spark like the old car ignition systems. This might mean you need a good battery for the machine to run, so make sure it has a good battery charged up to around 12.6v after sitting.

I suspect the first thing we should focus on is to get the system working the proper way with out bypassing the ignition switch and safety system. This is kind of my first "deep dive" into the kawi wiring, so I'll try my best to be accurate. If you have a multi meter and a basic understanding how to use it, that would be super great.

First thing first is to check the fuses on the machine. I can't really say where they are, but based on a Honda, there should be one near the battery for the charging system and power pulled from the battery, and the other two likely in some fuse holder, on Honda's it's normally near the neck area. Multi meter test for the fuse is remove the fuse and OHM test the two sides of the fuse, 0 ohms or dead short is good.

The next thing I'd want to check is the ignition switch, I have no clue how reliable they are, but the function of it is documented well. There's 3 wires coming off from it, looks like a brown, white, and red/white. With the switch off, no wires should have connection to each other (OHM test again with a multi meter), with it to the first On spot it should connect brown with white, and with it on the second On spot (run + lights I think), it connects all the wires together.

I suspect to poke at those tests and see what you find and let us know what your results are. If you don't have a multi meter, one of the like $6 ones on ebay work alright, I can look up the ones I bought for a project for you to get. Might not be super crazy accurate, but most test's don't need to be 100% perfect, just kind of yes or no, or high vs low resistance etc, we aren't building circuits here lol.

Good luck with the diag work, let me know if you need help with the multi meter, or anything else. Since I don't know these machines very well, I can't really give test light instructions.

Sorry I missed this post lol. Yeah I want to get it running first and then decide if it needs rings. I do have a decent multimeter and a pretty decent understanding of how to use it. I do not actually have a battery in it....I wonder if that might be part of my problem??? Thought thenspark was triggered by the stator like my Hondas.

Sorry if I repeated stuff you mentioned in my later posts, somehow skipped over this one lol.

[ps2fixer]

Yea not a prob lol.

I know some DC systems can't be started with out a battery, while others do fine. Pretty sure all Honda 3 wheelers are AC based, so runs directly off the exciter coil, so none require a battery to run.

I'd be interested to get some readings of different parts so I can document function better when I make a new wire diagram for your machine. I'm pretty sure I have a main harness already, just the plug in stuff I wouldn't have to document well. I'd document the electrical similar to the Honda wire diagram style. Check out one of the Honda diagrams on http://atvmanual.com to see what they turn out like (so far at least). I haven't figured out a good way to mark stripes evenly and somewhat automated but I'll figure something out some time I'm sure.

[BarnBoy]

Yea not a prob lol.

I know some DC systems can't be started with out a battery, while others do fine. Pretty sure all Honda 3 wheelers are AC based, so runs directly off the exciter coil, so none require a battery to run.

I'd be interested to get some readings of different parts so I can document function better when I make a new wire diagram for your machine. I'm pretty sure I have a main harness already, just the plug in stuff I wouldn't have to document well. I'd document the electrical similar to the Honda wire diagram style. Check out one of the Honda diagrams on http://atvmanual.com to see what they turn out like (so far at least). I haven't figured out a good way to mark stripes evenly and somewhat automated but I'll figure something out some time I'm sure.

Interesting. I will have to buy a battery to put in and then try again. Bad thing is I'm out of town for the next little bit so it's gonna be a while before I get back to working on it.

My ignition coil measured 2.9 ohms on the primary coil, and 12k ohms on the secondary coil. Both mid spec. In case that's of any use to you.

It's a weird bike, because it's got an unlockable rear diff, manual clutch, electric start only, and the shift pattern is 1-N-2-3-4-5. Hoping it turns out alright, and I can find parts. I think it'd be a cool bike just to rip around on. Seems pretty simple but I'll have to clean up the electrical on it.

[barnett468]

It's a weird bike, because it's got an unlockable rear diff, manual clutch, electric start only, and the shift pattern is 1-N-2-3-4-5.

The engine is basically a KL250 engine.

[barnett468]

.
I would use some dielectric grease when reconnecting the wire connectors.
.

[ps2fixer]

Not really a problem, just don't forget about us lol.

Also for the battery, you can use jumper cables hooked to a car battery. Just make sure to hook it up right, and keep the positive cable from touching any other metal so it doesn't short out. Don't need to start the vehicle or anything unless you do a lot of cranking. Big batteries don't damage anything, just more capacity for more cranking and such. That's what I'd do at least.

If there's an old junk battery in it, you could use that to hold the cables and such, just pay attention to it at first as it will try to charge. Depending how the battery failed, there's a small chance it could be internally shorted and could be bad results. Any bubbling or boiling disconnect it and stay clear from the area for a while. You could also disconnect the ground side and hooked the neg to the frame/engine/foot peg and the positive to the battery so the battery isn't actually part of the circuit.

I think the wheelie king used that model of machine, or transplanted that rear end into a honda or something. Let me dig up the video lol. He did wheelies in a line, but then could turn the steering wheel and turn the machine, he had two brake master cylinders on the steering, and each side controlled a disk brake on each rear half shaft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVdNkycMQKw

[BarnBoy]

The engine is basically a KL250 engine.

Ah makes sense. Some parts might interchange, no? Might make life a little easier?. Will get some dielectric grease as well.

[BarnBoy]

Not really a problem, just don't forget about us lol.

Also for the battery, you can use jumper cables hooked to a car battery. Just make sure to hook it up right, and keep the positive cable from touching any other metal so it doesn't short out. Don't need to start the vehicle or anything unless you do a lot of cranking. Big batteries don't damage anything, just more capacity for more cranking and such. That's what I'd do at least.

If there's an old junk battery in it, you could use that to hold the cables and such, just pay attention to it at first as it will try to charge. Depending how the battery failed, there's a small chance it could be internally shorted and could be bad results. Any bubbling or boiling disconnect it and stay clear from the area for a while. You could also disconnect the ground side and hooked the neg to the frame/engine/foot peg and the positive to the battery so the battery isn't actually part of the circuit.

I think the wheelie king used that model of machine, or transplanted that rear end into a honda or something. Let me dig up the video lol. He did wheelies in a line, but then could turn the steering wheel and turn the machine, he had two brake master cylinders on the steering, and each side controlled a disk brake on each rear half shaft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVdNkycMQKw

No fear of that haha. Will def report in when I get back.

It had no battery in it when I got it. I tried the jumper cable trick...no dice. Course the headlight switch is stuck so I cant test it, but starter button didn't work, and neutral light didn't light up. Haven't done any further tests.

I will check out the vid! Thanks!

Oh yeah, dug up this old post here on the board. Thought it was interesting re: CDI. Thoughts? 258560

[ps2fixer]

I should mention, I fully support the dielectric grease too, great stuff to make connections water resistant and somewhat weather proof. Doesn't harm rubbers or plastics etc and it's a bit of a lube, so handy when installing some rubber mounted tail lights, or seating new tires on rims etc.


I'm kind of a Honda fanboy, so don't have the experience with Suzuki either lol. The mention of the 12v DC power supports what I was thinking with the wire diagram though. Really pretty much any generic DC CDI *should* work, but the CDI also can have an ignition timing curve that can vary greatly machine to machine. Never hurts to try though if the price is right :P. If I saw the connector for your CDI and the Suzuki CDI, I could let you know if I could make an adapter or not, so no hacking up harnesses and such. I'd also need to somehow get the pinout for both connectors too, like +12v, ground, pulse generator (2 pins), and coil trigger wire.

The extreme basics of a CDI boils down mainly to AC or DC, there's also the safety systems that really can act weird.

Didn't know the Wheelie King was from Michigan, I think I might have seen him once, but not super sure. Either case, the guy has a talent for wheelies for sure. I do ok, but nothing like that guy. It's a long vid, but pretty interesting too. I remember his carb on his 3 wheeler was mounted at an angle so when he's doing a wheelie, it sat normal because that was "normal" for him lol.

[BarnBoy]

I should mention, I fully support the dielectric grease too, great stuff to make connections water resistant and somewhat weather proof. Doesn't harm rubbers or plastics etc and it's a bit of a lube, so handy when installing some rubber mounted tail lights, or seating new tires on rims etc.


I'm kind of a Honda fanboy, so don't have the experience with Suzuki either lol. The mention of the 12v DC power supports what I was thinking with the wire diagram though. Really pretty much any generic DC CDI *should* work, but the CDI also can have an ignition timing curve that can vary greatly machine to machine. Never hurts to try though if the price is right :P. If I saw the connector for your CDI and the Suzuki CDI, I could let you know if I could make an adapter or not, so no hacking up harnesses and such. I'd also need to somehow get the pinout for both connectors too, like +12v, ground, pulse generator (2 pins), and coil trigger wire.

The extreme basics of a CDI boils down mainly to AC or DC, there's also the safety systems that really can act weird.

Didn't know the Wheelie King was from Michigan, I think I might have seen him once, but not super sure. Either case, the guy has a talent for wheelies for sure. I do ok, but nothing like that guy. It's a long vid, but pretty interesting too. I remember his carb on his 3 wheeler was mounted at an angle so when he's doing a wheelie, it sat normal because that was "normal" for him lol.

Ok good to know. Attached a pic of the connector on my CDI. Like I said earlier, I found a cheapo (well still $30-40) cdi on Amazon that looks like it should work. I'll see if I can post a link.

I've not gotten that good at riding a wheelie, at least not good enough to keep it going like some of these guys. I've heard that wheelie-ing can be detrimental to the engine if you sit there and ride them for miles like some people do. Something to do with cam and tappet lubrication. IDK...haven't had first hand experience. 258561258562

[ps2fixer]

Oh cool Hitachi made the CDI's for Kawi, didn't know that. Thanks for the photos. Can you by chance get a couple photos showing the connector/wires too so I can match them up to know the pin out. Saves me a lot of time trying to find hard to find part images lol.

The wheelie stuff kind of depends on the engine design. Like my atc200es I wheelied all the time with no problems, however it does have an oil pump, and I'm pretty sure the pickup tube is in the center of the engine. If an engine doesn't have an oil pump, or the pickup tube is say the front of the engine, you could stave the pump of oil, so first thing that looses oil pressure is the top end, cam and such. Same goes for car engines, front pickup tubes in drag racers is not a good deal when the oil goes to the back of the engine when they are racing. I can't really think of a 3 wheeler engine that doesn't have an oil pump, even the ATC70 must have one since it's OHC. If you had an American trike with a brigs engine on it, I could see wheelies being a problem, they are a splash oil bath engine, so if the splasher isn't hitting oil, things are not getting oiled. Some Honda engines are designed similarly for like lawn mowers and such.

Talking about that, check out an HT3813 Honda Riding Lawnmower some time, those things are sweet. It's a little Honda Civic in the form of a Lawn Tractor. I have one, and 3 of the HT3810's (10 hp instead of 13hp). Super well built machines. Well I guess I'm in a video mood, here's one of the videos I know of that covers the machine pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml9-VxktEmM

[BarnBoy]

258565

Best one I have on my phone. Will have to wait till I get home to get a better one. You can see the CDi and back half of the plug. It's basically reverse of the CDI plug. IDK if that's any help.

Makes sense. Trying to remember where the pickup is on my 200M....I guess towards the front of the engine. Like I said, just something I heard and was curious about.

My neighbor actually has one of those haha. They are pretty cool mowers. They sound awesome too. Water cooled, 2 cylinder I think??? Don't know the model number of his. Somehow he managed to find a NOS deck in town for $200! Pretty cool.

[barnett468]

I've not gotten that good at riding a wheelie...

I would suggest that you do not attempt to wheelie that pig, as you find find the results....unpleasant. :lol:

[barnett468]

Oh cool Hitachi made the CDI's for Kawi, didn't know that.


They also make vibrators. :lol:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51joOtwslML._SY450_.jpg

[ps2fixer]

Yep, the 13hp is the 2 cylinder and liquid cooled, the 10hp is like a brigs engine, air cooled, push rod engine etc. The 13hp has an oil pump/filter (same as a 1UZ lexus and 3.4L Toyota Pickup engine), liquid cooled of course, actual rubber mounted engine mounts like a small car, shaft drive directly off the engine for the drive, transmission is actual gear to gear, no belts. Because of that, the shifter when you pull it in, or push in the clutch, is actually pulling in a mini clutch on the drive shaft. The front "pto" output is clutch driven as well, but goes to belt drive, that's for the mower deck and snow blower. There's also a HT4213 which had a 42in deck instead of 38in, and there's a 14hp version that's effectively the same thing. If you move up bigger you get into the RT series like RT5000 which is like 18hp and all hydrolic, has 4x4 and 4 wheel steer, used they are like $5k though, pretty expensive for how small they are. I'm sold on buying old Honda mowers from the 80's instead of the MTD junk mowers of today that needs work every few years (belts, belt pulley brakes, broken springs, etc).

A NOS deck for $200 is a steal, used they run about $100. There's two eras of decks, the older ones ran a Japanese built deck, which was silver and about twice as thick as the newer ones. It has great cast iron spindles, Japanese bearings, etc. The newer ones were known to rust out, and where sourced from a contractor in the USA..... MTD! I don't know if the decks are interchangeable or not though, all of mine run the heavy style ones, and all are in very usable shape, just have to replace some bearings.

Now that I think about it, I think I have one of those harnesses at home, that CDI connector with the little 2 pin right next to it I'm sure I've seen before. I'm just not at home to document that's the CDI connector and such lol.

The oil pickup on the 200 series including the M should be center of the engine, there's a pickup screen there, the oil pump is located near the front, but there's some piping or passages for it.


@Barnett

Someone has to make them, I guess they signed up for that market.

[BarnBoy]

Wow, those are some well built machines. Yup his is a 13hp. I checked out the vid you posted too. I know what I want my next mower to be :).

Usually run about $100? :) I assume that's a typo? Or are they not that valuable?

Yeah when I get back I'll take some good pics, and we can see if we can figure something out.

[BarnBoy]

I would suggest that you do not attempt to wheelie that pig, as you find find the results....unpleasant. :lol:

Sounds like you've tried before? Lol

[ps2fixer]

The Honda mowers run around $500 in my area generally ready to use. Sometimes they have a small problem but comes with a bagger etc. The deck has a built in extra boost fan for the bagger system too. I mowed my "woods" with a ton of leaves, and the shoot plugged up a bit, but it was moving a lot of crap too. All of the Honda lawmowers I got were $100 though, I got 1.5 bagger kits and a snow blower that's made by honda for it. It's only a single stage, but honda makes some of the best snow blowers in the world for consumer use.... more videos? I'm really on a video kick lately lol.

Here's an 8hp one, nothing special =)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J362C5BKNOY

Another angle, this one should be 13hp based on model number. If I recall correctly, all the way down to 5hp they say warning may throw snow up to 60 feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VawOARgASj8


Anyway, back on the lawn mowers, careful that you get an actual Honda rider mower, the ones with another brand with has a Honda engine is likely just an MTD with a Honda engine. Same goes for generators, a Honda motor is nice, but the whole thing Honda brand is like top of the line build quality, parts available, etc.

For those down south, that white stuff in the videos is called snow, kind of like a slushy =D.

[BarnBoy]

The Honda mowers run around $500 in my area generally ready to use. Sometimes they have a small problem but comes with a bagger etc. The deck has a built in extra boost fan for the bagger system too. I mowed my "woods" with a ton of leaves, and the shoot plugged up a bit, but it was moving a lot of crap too. All of the Honda lawmowers I got were $100 though, I got 1.5 bagger kits and a snow blower that's made by honda for it. It's only a single stage, but honda makes some of the best snow blowers in the world for consumer use.... more videos? I'm really on a video kick lately lol.

Here's an 8hp one, nothing special =)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J362C5BKNOY

Another angle, this one should be 13hp based on model number. If I recall correctly, all the way down to 5hp they say warning may throw snow up to 60 feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VawOARgASj8


Anyway, back on the lawn mowers, careful that you get an actual Honda rider mower, the ones with another brand with has a Honda engine is likely just an MTD with a Honda engine. Same goes for generators, a Honda motor is nice, but the whole thing Honda brand is like top of the line build quality, parts available, etc.

For those down south, that white stuff in the videos is called snow, kind of like a slushy =D.

Nice! Yes, being originally from Ontario Canada I can appreciate a good snow blower :)

[BarnBoy]

Update: Still got the Kawi....hopefully I'll have time to work on it soon. Gonna borrow a battery to install and then recheck for spark. Been kinda busy this week replacing the clutch and rear main on my Tacoma. 258850

[barnett468]

Sounds like you've tried before? Lol

I had to test one for hours on end on a small motocross type track to try and break it. The friggen rear rack slammed me in the azz so hard once that I thought it broke my tail bone. It was a generally an unpleasant experience overall. :cry:

[BarnBoy]

I had to test one for hours on end on a small motocross type track to try and break it. The friggen rear rack slammed me in the azz so hard once that I thought it broke my tail bone. It was a generally an unpleasant experience overall. :cry:

Yeah I saw that rack setup. IDK why the did it like that. The foldup rack to access the toolbox is a pain too. Maybe I'll pipe some pipe insulation on it for cushioning lol Or just cut it off

[BarnBoy]

After installing a good 12v battery into the bike, I found that I have power to the neutral switch (enough to light the bulb at least) and like half a volt to the CDI. I wonder if there's a bad connection somewhere or??? Found these 3 wires unplugged and IDK where they go to? Need a wiring diagram. 258948258948

[ps2fixer]

Here's the wire diagram, it's pretty huge so I'll just link it. Looks like white with black stripe is accessory terminals. It's a hot wire, so should be insulated so they can't touch the frame anywhere. The diagram shows a socket they go to as well, maybe the socket is missing/broken?

https://gyazo.com/376badbe217b2bbd83058c12a0fb8b7f