350x wiring question(s)

[Jd110]

What size are the wires to the stator? The manual states 200w, so I’m thinking 12awg but not sure. I’m pulling about 150w (momentarily) and wondering if that would cause a melt down, eventually.

[ps2fixer]

Standard wire harness wiring is 18 gauge. One thing to keep in mind, the general wire size suggestions for x size wire doesn't apply so much in wire harnesses as length is a huge factor too when it's 10ft and less. Anyway, at the high end, 200w/12v = 16.67amps. The actual stator wire for the coils are likely around 22-20 gauge.

I'm not super sure what the typical acceptable voltage loss is on this era of machine, but 5% seems to give the 18 gauge output for 3ft wire length. 18 gauge comes up for a max length of 5ft before it jumps up to 16 gauge. I'm not sure what OEM Honda wire is rated at, I suspect it's likely 105c though. The wire I use is 125c rated.



https://i.gyazo.com/8ad8dcb143b3fe527f439a97bb5f8e8d.png
https://i.gyazo.com/23a821a1c1f815b921d9fa5ea8ae0279.png

Here's the page if you want to mess around with the numbers. It's kind of annoying to use to change values though.

http://circuitwizard.bluesea.com/

Even though the alternator was designed to put out 200w, the wiring is a bit on the light side to pull the full amperage. I think 150w (12.5amp) is fine though. On more modern machines Honda typically used 14 gauge wire for anything powered off the battery, this included the atc250es/sx which are also rated for 200w alternator, but the battery clearly can put out more. Fused at the battery is 20amp on the 250es, and 15amp on the 250sx and the wire has a longer run (battery to ignition switch, to sub fuses by the headlight, then to aux plug, lights, starter solenoid, etc for the 250es).The latest machines with the most output might run 12 gauge wiring, not much experience with them though.

Anyway, assuming you're not extending the wires any longer than needed, you should be fine with stock wiring. FYI, there's no fuses in the system on the 350x, and the stock lights were around 75W total draw (well max was 36.5*2 + 5w, so 78w). If you want to be 100% sure, I could make a "Y" splitter at the stator connector and run a 14 gauge wire to the handle bar controls with another Y splitter to basically add the 14 gauge wire in with the 18 gauge wire so there's 100% no problems. I could make a harness with heavier power/ground wires too, but I don't have white/yellow in 14 gauge. You'd have to mod the wiring or send me your handle bar controls to up the wire size in that unless you're tapping into the power before the light switches. In stock form the voltage regulator should be draining the excess power off the alternator and it's similar length from the stator as the head light controls.

I haven't measured the max output of the 350x stator, but I'd assume the 200w is accurate, the newer trx250r machines were rated around 160w with a similar looking voltage regulator.

Also note, even though it's a 12v system, the running voltage at max output would likely be more in the 13.5-14.5v which makes the total amps slightly less.

[Jd110]

Hey Cory, I was hoping it could handle high/low beams at the same time, for more than a few minutes, without changing anything. The lights are perfect with the switch right in between. Might just go with led then, because either high or low are just mediocre. If 12.5 amp would require 16awg, it sounds like the harness wiring is too small. Thanks for the info:)

[ps2fixer]

No problem, another tip if the bulbs are OEM or very old, try some new bulbs, they get dim with years of use, same with your car/truck etc.

LED is a bit of a special situation and opens another can of worms. The 350x generates AC power, and like a LED tail light would be fine since it's just a basic resister to filter the power, but for the LED light bars they are generally powered by what's called a current driver. Current drivers are designed for DC power. It will likely work on the AC power, but at low rpm it will likely flicker and the power supply might create more heat because of the "dirty" power. If you get a rectifier for it to convert AC to "Full Wave Rectified DC", then the flicker effect happens twice as fast and the power supply might do better since the capacitors inside would keep charged better. The full proper setup is full wave rectifier + small battery.

Another catcher about all of this, finding a rectifier for the 350x is kind of a hard to find thing because the AC power is single phase, most machines that put out good wattage output like 200w and typically has a battery generally are 3 phase AC power.

You could try one of those "Cob" style LED lights that fit in the headlight housing, they don't run off a current driver, but I suspect they wouldn't be much brighter than stock, but a lot less power usage.

I'm currently not aware of any stator interchanges for the 350x to switch it to 3 phase or higher output. A stator rewind is possible and likely could be rewound to 3 phase and higher output if you wanted to go that route. I know of atleast one shop that does stator rewinds, ricky stators, but I'm not sure if that do custom stuff like that, or if they know of a solid source for a good regulator/rectifier. You could always just run the LED light and hope for the best, just be prepared encase the light fails or don't go on log trips till you can to test the light out well. Clearly some light power supplies are built better than others.

[Jd110]

Would a capacitor work, in place of a battery? It would be easier to place behind the headlight. I’m thinking a handle bar mounted, led light (w/ bridge rectifier-diode-capacitor), that I could tap into the headlight harness wiring, after the oem headlights are disconnected.
Here are bulbs listed for an x. I’m tempted to just try these. Not sure how they will work since it’s the only model listed without a battery. Thoughts on these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-Bulbs-Honda-TRX-300EX-TRX400EX-350X-PILOT-400-100w-Headlights-Super-White-/123212744989
The moose are getting braver, so I’d like to see them before I end up under them.

I had the switch apart to find any markings and found none. It did look like 18, so that could be too small, for what I was doing.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ps2fixer]

Capacitor should work, but I don't know about electronics well enough to know what size of capacitor is needed, but that's exactly how power supplies are built/designed, bridge rectifier (4 diodes) to get rectified DC, then a capacitor to get DC with a voltage ripple, and then they use less voltage than that lowest dip on the capacitor charge at the designed voltage, say 12v, but the capacitor charges up to 50v.

The linked bulbs is one of the cob styles, 95% sure it's made of just LEDs and resisters. LED's don't care about the on/off cycles etc, just don't over current or over voltage them and they can last 5000-10000 hours (generally the driver fails before the LED unless designed wrong).

For the light switches, I'm not sure what they are designed for, but Honda used the same switches for nearly every atv with minor changes. Highest light load I can think of would be like a 450 foreman with a ~60w headlight, 2x helper lights around 25w each, and the tail light 5-10w, so should be safe for ~10 amps or so.

Also, if you go the capacitor route, be sure it's fairly high voltage rated. I'm not sure what the peak voltage is for the 350x stator, but I've had readings of 30+v testing a rectifier/regulator, clearly it wasn't regulating, cheap china junk.

I suspect the simplest route is those LED lights you found, I just don't know if they will be brighter over stock. They would likely be a lot more "white" which you may or may not like. I personally like around 3000k-4000k (color temp) lights, much higher than that and it's too white/blue/violet. FYI, that ebay listing is a complete lie, no way those bulbs are 100w, or even 100w combined, there's not enough cooling for that (LEDs die from heat, voltage, or current). More than likely they are made in China, and if you can find the right source they are probably $5 or less.

Searched around, here you go, same thing, same wild specs (80w instead of 100w), but under 10% the price. Also claiming 50,000 hour life which I'd assume isn't true, some high end LEDs might be rated that long though, but just the raw LEDs to make the light would cost more.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pc-New-Bulb-LED-Lamp-16SMD-80W-Motorcycle-Headlight-White-12V-H6-P15D/223649026843?hash=item341285531b:g:TKcAAOSwe8ldbji d

If you want it faster than the slow boat from china, here's the cheapest listing from the USA, which has more logical specs that look accurate and not a bunch of lies.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/P15D-H6M-8W-LED-Motorcycle-Fog-DRL-Headlight-SMD-Hi-lo-Beam-Lamp-Bulbs-6000K-US/193093829482?hash=item2cf54a036a:g:CXQAAOSwKpFddxW I

8w sounds MUCH more logical, LEDs are around 10x more efficient then filament style bulbs, so it might be "like" 80w-100w bulbs. 6000K color temp is very white almost blueish, below is a color temp chart to get an idea. I really hate specs that don't make sense and personally avoid sellers promoting that kind of marketing.


Here's a video of a real 100w led light, just to show the difference ... that guy is crazy though he wants 11?! That's 1100w of draw while the lights are on, his house would look like daylight though, probably be so bright it would be hard to sleep lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mtnXmqD2ys
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0234/8675/files/ColorTempChart.png?13471857952188618293

[Jd110]

Going back my meltdown question, there are two wires(brn & wht), behind the headlights. They are labeled ‘op’ in diagram, which I’m assuming means optional.? One is switch power and the other is constant power. What were these meant for? Also, the switch detail shows a middle position, labeled ‘n’.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite/files/Wiring/ATC350Xx85Thru86.jpg

[ps2fixer]

You're right on the wiring, brown is power to the tail lights (on whenever headlights are on) and the white/yellow is direct from stator power.

These were extra connectors not used in stock config for accessories. One Hondaline part that comes to mind is the speeometer, the backlight is powered off those connectors. Honda often added extra wires at the tail light as well for light whips/flags too.

[Jd110]

Sounds good. I have a small led light bar I can try. It’ll run with the oem lights on high or low. Appreciate the help.

Good catch on the 100w led lamps-that’s a joke. The lamps you linked would be a better experiment-IMO. Thanks! Also, w/o watching the video again, I think he said 11 of them are going on another building tomorrow. His led is also mounted close to the subject, compared the other, being on a 25’ or so pole. Not to mention 150w HP sodium aren’t really meant to be mounted that high.
Edit: what’s a good source for 3.5 bullet connectors? No luck in town, here.

[ps2fixer]

Yea connector terminals aren't normally available at typical box stores. I haven't had direct experience with the "insulated bullet terminals, but I'd suggest getting the OEM style ones and the proper crimper. Site I use for quite a lot of my connector needs is linked below.

http://www.cycleterminal.com/

Here's the page for the bullet terminals, the site can be a little weird to browse. Make sure you get 3.5mm and not the 3.9/4mm. The bigger ones were common on Yamaha and motorcycles and such.

http://www.cycleterminal.com/bullet-terminals.html

For LEDs, it's all about the lens/viewing angle for distances, related video was a truck with 18x of those 100w LEDs on it and he was lighting up mountains over 2 miles away lol. The HP sodium I'd assume is a really old bulb not putting out peak performance, my focus was on the LED anyway lol.

Just for fun, here's that video of the 1800w led light bar truck. Not sure what his use case is to even need something like that, and how can he even stand to drive it down the road with the road signs blinding him lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pit33Lng2so

[Jd110]

That F-1/dodge is incredible! Great information, thanks.

[Jd110]

I tried a ac/dc converter good for 60w and it works. It’s small enough to hide behind headlight, too. 18watt light at idle doesn’t flicker at all. 260116
https://www.amazon.com/SMAKN%C2%AE-Converter-16-28V-16-40V-Supply/dp/B00R5GO4YU

[ps2fixer]

I assume you're running the stock voltage regulator yet? According to the specs on that amazon page, it's designed for 16-28v AC but your machine should be putting out around 13.5-14.5v AC. Probably close enough not to cause problems though, generally there's around a 10% tolerance on electronics. Reading some reviews, it sounds like the ~12v AC input ends up as about 9v DC output, so similar logic, 14v would drop to about 10.5v.

According to what the seller says, it's a bridge rectifier (4 diodes to convert AC-> DC), then a DC to DC converter. Don't know much about the DC to DC converters, but the bridge rectifier should be around 1.4v drop (0.7v per diode). Assuming you have the voltage regulator still hooked up, just a bridge rectifier would probably work and have around 12.6v DC output.

Anyway, just wanted to cover a couple things for potential readers so they don't assume the device is a voltage regulator as well (with no low and at cursing rpm it will probably burn up the DC to DC converter, the diodes are probably safe for 100v+).

Also, since this has a full wave bridge rectifier in it, make sure the 350x's ground/green wire does not connect to the negative output of the device as it will cause a short inside the bridge rectifier.


Sounds like you have a combo of parts that works for your situation, I'm sure you'll enjoy the LED lights, 18w LED light should be similar to atleast 72w of the typical headlight power, up to ~108w. Just using real world numbers, the LED lights in my house (cheap ones made in china but are actually branded) are 60w compareable bulbs and draw ~9w so it's around 6x more efficient. Under driving high quality LEDs you can hit around 10x more efficient power usage vs light output. Also pretty interesting, you're testing out 18w LED and those LED bulbs that goes into the stock 350x headlights are 8w each (16w total). I suspect they would have similar output. Once you get the light mounted up, let us know what you think of the light =).

[Jd110]

Yes, it’s got the stock regulator. Everything should be able to be connect behind headlight, without any additional wires, other than a couple pig tails. I’ll run a separate switch. I hooked it up to the ‘optional’ brown and the green the headlights are connected to and it works. Should it connect somewhere, else?
The 18w is for my boys 70, now that I know this converter works. I plan to make something to hold a couple brighter ones for this.

[ps2fixer]

I see, FYI the stock ATC70 has a 6v system and no voltage regulator (the load is the regulator if I recall correctly for the machines with the light kit). Headlight was only like 25w so it probably maxes out around 30w with the tail light too.

The two optional connections at the brown and green should be just fine. The light will get power whenever the headlight switch is on which I suspect is how you want it to work. You could get fancy and make a small adapter to the blue wire (high beam) and wire the LED light to get power off that + the green wire so the normal headlights are on for dim, and on brights it powers the stock brights + led brights if you plan to still run both sets of lights. A simple inline switch would work fine too for controlling the LED light off the optional connections.

[Jd110]

Guess I’ll need to figure out the 70. And geez I’m bad at explaining myself but I’ll try again.

I’m planning on replacing of the stock lamps in the headlights with led, also-(If it works). I’ll most likely lose the high beam function, which is fine. I’ll put the 2 led floods (30watts-each) on a separate switch, so I can run all of them together (headlights + floods). With that, it should be around 80w draw versus the 143.5 running high AND low with old oem lamps. More light, less power is the goal.
Edit: Since, I’ve changed my mind about the oem lamps-they’re going bye bye.

[Jd110]

Ok. Now I’m a pain. If high and low function the same with led lamps, then I think the floods can be wired to the high (blue wire) and the headlights will work, also. I’ll try it.
Edit: good suggestion, thank you.

[ps2fixer]

I think there's 12v kits for them, don't know much about that setup though. So many people run the Chinese engines in them since it's a near bolt in thing and they are 12v + cdi based.

Not a problem on the suggestion on the blue wire, the only trick is to get 3 connections on the double bullet female terminal (a male + double female short wire would work).

[Jd110]

I’ve got lights tested & mounted on both machines. 260189.
260190. 260191. Still need to wire them up after I find a decent on/off switch. The 70 light is from a ct-70 parts machine- I scratched the led idea, to avoid the hassle. There are no mods to either trike, meaning the lights will come off without a trace. The angle bracket is mounted on rubber washers to avoid scratches.

[ps2fixer]

Neat spot to mount them, my only concern would be the fender casting a shadow.

Are those lights 18W or 60W? Guessing 18W though (aka it uses 3W rated LEDs or 10W, I think 5W exists too but haven't seen them much). I have a yard light that's 4 of the 3W leds with a 10W driver, under driven to last a life time and it lights up my yard pretty well and doesn't blind people driving by.

[Jd110]

Thanks, I found a switch, so we’ll see soon enough.

[Jd110]

I was working on finishing up the 70’s neutral light, last night. I enlarged the center mounting bolt for the headlight. Drilled out the center, big enough for two wires with a green led light. Finished with an all thread coupling (for the body of the light) with a green lens on top.

[ps2fixer]

Don't forget the LED needs a current limiting resister or it will burn out. Not sure if it's a premade LED for 6v, LEDs generally need around 3.5ish volts for white, down to like 2.4v for red, resister size and value is determined from max potential voltage it would see and voltage/current demand of the LED (generally 20ma).

[Jd110]

Thanks, the information you’ve provided has been really good and has helped me quite a bit. I got it done last night. Overall, I’m happy with it. I actually like the oem lamps over the led. The halogens throw the light further and seem brighter. The floods are positioned just how I wanted them. 260275 led floods.
260276 oem halogens.
260277 led headlights
260278 led headlights & floods
260280
The fender does cast a shadow , but not bad, the headlights make it up. After you mentioned that I remembered I wanted them pointing to the side a little. Thanks again.

[ps2fixer]

Looks good, I'd count those as driving/helper/fog lights like on a car =). Generally speaking for lights you want to see for distance, you want spot, flood is just as it says, floods the area and spreads the light pretty thin. Really it's down to angles, 120 degree vs like 40 degree. Narrower the angle, more light in 1 spot.

[Jd110]

Yes, I didn’t intend to spot light the bushes off the sides-lol. Floods work great for that. If danger is not within about 20’, I’m generally not too concerned. It’s the $9.99 led lamps in the headlights I was comparing to the oem. I agree- that’s where I’d like a little distance.

[Jd110]

Don't forget the LED needs a current limiting resister or it will burn out. Not sure if it's a premade LED for 6v, LEDs generally need around 3.5ish volts for white, down to like 2.4v for red, resister size and value is determined from max potential voltage it would see and voltage/current demand of the LED (generally 20ma).
Got it, after some repurposing. It’s nothing special, but works great. I had a defective exit sign for parts and found something to house them in. Actually, I had most of it, except the tail light, switch and male stator plug.
260392
Needed a tail light, too 260393
260394260395
260396260397

[Jd110]

Here’s what happened when I put cheap heat shrink on this aftermarket light. 260633. I fixed my mistake with the soldiering gun. Two wires for brake/tail filaments. I only used one, but how is it grounded? Through the base. You can see my single black wire above, that was bolted to the inside of the metal light case.

[ps2fixer]

On a standard bulb, the outer part of the base is the ground, and grounds through the socket which generally has a wire soldered or riveted to it, and the contact(s) on the bottom is the power wire. Like a dual filament bulb is housing ground, 1 contact for dim power, the other probe bright power.

From what I can see in the photo, that light housing seems to be a budge likely china made (guessing usa designed maybe, we love to use frame grounds etc instead of real wire). I say that because the mounting holes is what grounds the light from what I can see, which means you have to sand down the surface to get a solid contact, bright shiny metal which wont stay bright and shiny for long with no anti corrosive (dielectric silicone for example). Just thinking out loud, but you'd probably be best off scratching up part of the housing (pull the wires out if you can) and solder the ground wire to it, and wire that wire to the atc's green wire so you don't have to worry about the housing getting a good ground through bolts and such.

From what I've seen on Honda stuff, the ground point for the harness is always a welded in nut to the frame, and the bolt that goes into it grounds through the threads and the inner face of the bolt head to the brass ring terminal. It seems to work so well that it water proofs the bolt threads with the brass and corrosion is rarely an issue, kind of like a banjo bolt with copper washers for seals.


Here's a photo to show as an example of what honda does for their factory headlight sockets on a ATC350X. Socket isn't orig from a 350x, but it's the same design. Also FYI, that disk that pops out can be installed backwards, so it can reverse bright vs dim wires if installed backwards for a dual contact socket (like I photoed).

Also, China & Taiwan made stuff can be extremely low quality, one of the headlight sockets I source start out with the ground wire stripped back about an inch and just wrapped over the plastic housing, and the metal socket housing pressed in against the wire for the ground. Super shotty design. I scuff up the metal and solder my own ground wire directly to the metal housing, OEM Honda was spot welded like the image below but a different socket design. I would show a pic, but I already threw all the china wire in the scrap pile from my last batch lol. Here's one of my template ones to show the solder work, I don't claim to be the best in the world at soldering, but it turns out pretty good and 100x better than how they came to me. FYI, that is a steel housing, you can solder to steel, but it's more of a challenge than say brass or copper. You always need flux and clean metal and a temp controllable solder iron is a huge plus, too hot and it won't want to stick and the flux just burns away, too cold and the solder doesn't want to flow well and "cold solder joints" can happen.

Hopefully this is interesting and helpful, bare min couple pics to give an idea on how to get a solid ground =). BTW, the bulb to socket ground is via the two little prongs that stick out if the bulb type you have is the type I'm thinking of. On the 350x, it's part of the headlight lens housing (the face of the bulb base goes against it), and the 3 fingers that lock it in grounds to the bulb housing. The white plastic style ones is the 350x style in reverse, bulb has the 3 prongs that stick out, so that's what grounds to the housing. Basically all wearable surfaces, so installing and removing the bulb should fix grounding problems in most cases if the ground issue is at that point.

[Jd110]

It is interesting and helpful, too. Here’s why: I noticed the night I did my test on the 350 lights, that one of the oem lights went real dim. So I swapped them with the cheap led headlights. Next time out, the same light wasn’t working at all. Haven’t found time to look into it until now. Thanks to your last post, I think I found it.
260636
I would clean that ground connection with baking soda/water. What would you do? Much appreciated!!

[ps2fixer]

The socket doesn't look too bad, the critical thing with the sockets is the 2 contacts inside the socket for the bulb. The fingers that stick out will wear away light corrosion just by installing and removing it a few times, basically the same effect as sanding it with really fine sand paper. You could touch up the 3 ears that come out, but I don't think it's bad enough to really effect much.

I'm guessing if the socket has corrosion like that, the headlight housing does too, guessing that's where it's worse. Here's a photo of one I have here. That inner lip is what the bulb grounds though, it's not a wearable surface, so if it's corroded up like mine, it needs to get sanded back down to metal.

Simple test you can do, take the "bad" socket and put it in the opposite headlight and don't worry about the dust seal, start the machine and turn the light on and wiggle the socket and see if the light flickers at all. If not it's not the socket. Remove the socket and switch it back to the orig housing, and do the same test, it should flicker if the socket/housing/bulb ground connection is the problem. If not it might be the bullet connection for the sockets. The harness ground to frame is generally solid, so unless the bolt is loose I don't think it would be there, besides that the engine has an extra ground wire in one of the plugs so really there's 2 engine ground locations.

As for how to clean up the headlight housing, not super sure what the best route would be. I'd personally probably just stick sand paper and try to get it just on the lip and twist it back and forth till it cleans up, doesn't have to be perfect, but does have to get down to the metal. Do the wiggle test till it doesn't flicker and put some dielectric grease on that lip to prevent it corroding back up since it's bare steel at that point. Stock it's zinc plated but over time zinc corrodes which is by design, the zinc corrodes so the steel doesn't till the zinc is gone in the area. Same story for a lot of bolts, the axle, etc. If you had the acid and such replating it could be possible but that might mess up the reflective coating in the housing or the glass.


FYI, I've never done the wiggle test on my 350x headlights, but in theory you should be able to wiggle without it flickering. In theory unless you press it in, it should keep contact.

[Jd110]

I soaked it with baking soda and it cleaned it. I should have taken a picture but i could still see black in the crevasse, so I soldiered it and put on liquid tape. Definitely not pretty but works perfect...for now. The ground connection is tack welded or something. So that bit of corrosion is what caused it. Thanks again. 260645260646[/ATTACH [ATTACH=CONFIG]260647

[ps2fixer]

No problem, glad you figured it out. The soldering looks like the iron was too cold or too small, but it's a real fight because the wire insulation melts super easily (like 80c rated wire that melts, the stuff I used is 105c rated and it doesn't melt even when I put the tip directly on the wire). Liquid electrical tape isn't a bad idea, it doesn't need to be insulated, but sealing it from water etc is good.

If you continue to have problems with that socket, I mod Honda sourced sockets for the 350x, they are a bit pricey though. Just the nature of sourcing parts from Honda instead of aftermarket.

I can get new sockets cheap from China, but they are china quality with china wiring, so pretty much have to replace the contacts + wiring to have an acceptable socket, and none comes with the right type of dust cover, and the rubber rips apart so easily it's unusable anyway.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/192121651595