Trying to make the best of my mistake: new to me 1984 ATC 200ES

[VillageIdiot]

Hello everyone. Recently I was at a small auction and there were 2 ATCs there a 250ES and 200ES. Well, I got confused about the lot numbers (because I'm an idiot, see my username) and as you can tell from my post title I ended up buying the 200ES (and overpaying for it to boot) when I really only wanted the 250ES. Anyway, I'm trying to make the best of it and still be excited to get back into riding (after a 20+ year break) despite everything.


My first most pressing question is if anyone has any advice as to what can I do to prolong the life of the front shocks. They both seem to be working fine right now, but is there anything I should be draining/changing/lubing to keep them that way as long as possible? I know they're apparently non-rebuildable so when they go they're gone.


Obligatory trike pic: https://imgur.com/BUAD5sE


Thanks, and I'm sure to have tons more questions in the future!

[floydechoes2000]

A similar thing happened to me... Years ago a craigslist ad said 85 Big Red with a few bad pics taken in a dark shed. I emailed the guy and he agreed to deliver the trike to me and the price was right so I told him to bring it figuring it was worth more than what he was asking in parts even if it was beat. Well he shows up with an 84 Big Red but I felt kind of obligated to buy it since he delivered it and all so I did. It wasn't what I wanted but I've never regretted it, it was in really nice shape after all and it's done everything I've ever asked it to do no problem.

There's really nothing you can do to the front forks other than clean them good and maybe replace the bushings. Mine have always worked OK but I know some day they probably won't.

Good luck with yours and be sure to check out justbigreds.com

P.S. - try 4psi or less in your tires for a smooth ride! Who needs a rear shock? lol

[MrConcdid]

Find a 200m and buy it, then swap the front ends and sell it, this is the best option, it allows you to keep the larger 9in wheel and larger 25in tire.
If you swap a 200s shock front end you will be stuck with the smaller 8 inch rim and smaller 22inch tire.
a 83/84 200x will also fit, that would net you a front disc brake and aluminum wheel, this is a common upgrade.

Mrc.
the 200es is a great bike if you got an 84, great I think the 84 is the best it is the only shaft driven, low and high and reverse. I would take a 200es any day (with a 200m front ) there perfect, I just sold one set up like that.

[350for350]

Even though you paid more than you wanted to, it's only a mistake if you think that it is. You have a very nice looking trike. The money's gone, so I say enjoy it. I wouldn't mind having a 200ES, but I haven't seen any for sale around me for what I considered to be a reasonable price.

[MrConcdid]

I don't know what you paid, but that's a very nice looking bike. Id keep it and enjoy it BUT if your a dead set against it then
sell it, Hondas always sell, who knows you might break even or make some money.
Post an ad in your local craigslist, facebook market place, and any free classified, list it for $200 more than you paid for it, when they call let them talk you down $200
they think they won, and you just got your money back.

MrC.

[VillageIdiot]

Even though you paid more than you wanted to, it's only a mistake if you think that it is. You have a very nice looking trike. The money's gone, so I say enjoy it.

As you said, the money is gone and the trike is here; and I really am stoked overall. Just a little self-flagellation over making a dumb mistake when there was a 1985 250ES that was just as clean right there that I would have preferred because of the problematic 200ES front shock design. Otherwise I think all this machine needs is a good carb clean to be ready to go. A this point I plan to keep it and keep an eye out for a 200M front-end donor for the inevitable future need.

[bkvette3]

What part of the '84 200es front shock assembly causes all the problems and ultimately fails??

[coolpool]

What part of the '84 200es front shock assembly causes all the problems and ultimately fails??

It's not a sealed, wet hydraulic system but more of a spring/damper/plastic bushing setup. They are prone to seizing up and are marginally effective, conversely they can wear out causing front to rear slop in them. I lucked out when I bought my 84 200es as it had a 85 250ES front end on it; and the mod was well done too boot! Not a common upgrade but works great!

[bkvette3]

It's not a sealed, wet hydraulic system but more of a spring/damper/plastic bushing setup. They are prone to seizing up and are marginally effective, conversely they can wear out causing front to rear slop in them. I lucked out when I bought my 84 200es as it had a 85 250ES front end on it; and the mod was well done too boot! Not a common upgrade but works great!

Thank - you for the clarification, coolpool. My low hour '84 200es front end has no front to rear slop in the shocks - knock on wood for luck. Is it the plastic bushings that wears out?? If so - can't the plastic bushings just be replaced??


Hope all is well with you and your family.

[ATC King]

My first most pressing question is if anyone has any advice as to what can I do to prolong the life of the front shocks.

If you really want to keep them working as long as possible, disassemble them, thoroughly clean, and put some rust preventive lubrication on all the parts then reassemble.

By now, they've probably got a fair amount of abrasive material bouncing around, and the chrome on the integral fork legs is not nearly as durable as that on regular forks. Once the chrome is worn through, the steel will rust, then pit and destroy the bushings, along with the wipers.

The dampers are similar to car hood/trunk lifters and not rebuildable. They hold the fork parts together though, so have to be in there. Even if the seals are blown and they aren't damping, if they at least still move, that's all you can ask for.

A little oil can be added through the bolt holes on the top of the forks (once they're back together), but don't get carried away. It'll just be for preventing rust. There are no real seals on the forks, just wipers, so if you add too much oil, it'll just leak out and make a mess. A few ounces maybe, just enough to splash around.


A big thing to remember about a 200M conversion, is new (even aftermarket) front fenders are NOT available and the 200ES fender is not a direct replacement. You can use the 200ES fender, but if you're persnickety about it, it's not correct. The 200M forks won't be correct either, so maybe that's a wash. You'll have to fabricate headlight and rack mounts for the 200ES parts to work on the 200M forks. It will require welding.

If you came across and entire 250ES front end, that's probably the better option. Larger diameter fork tubes, and a larger brake are two advantages.


One other thing, change that rear axle oil. That stuff usually doesn't get changed near as often as it should.

[bkvette3]

Just putting mine back together - all new OEM NOS plastic parts - springs show no rust. Chrome all intact. Lower shock housings clean inside - no rust or scale. Love my '84 200es - great ride.



263548

263549

263550

[bkvette3]

263551

OEM parts - pretty sure I have 2 or 3 sets of these.

[bkvette3]

OP - I don't think you were an idiot for buying the '84 200es. It looks like a clean, OEM unit. Electric start, reverse, dual range transmission makes for an enjoyable, comfortable ride. I love mine - owned for for 8 years now. First trike I purchased. Never let me down - never, ever thought of selling it.

Enjoy your 200es and if a nice '85 250es comes down the line - add it to your fleet.

Cheers.

[VillageIdiot]

One other thing, change that rear axle oil. That stuff usually doesn't get changed near as often as it should.


Oh yeah, for sure. All on the agenda for this weekend. Only 80W-90 gear oil I could find in stock at either Oreilly Auto or Autozone was some Lucas but it says it exceeds all GL4 and GL5 specs so I assume it should be fine.

Gonna get that changed along with a full oil change (including rotor) even though the oil on the dipstick looks clean.

[VillageIdiot]

263551

OEM parts - pretty sure I have 2 or 3 sets of these.

Selling or just bragging? :)

[ATC King]

Only 80W-90 gear oil I could find in stock at either Oreilly Auto or Autozone was some Lucas but it says it exceeds all GL4 and GL5 specs so I assume it should be fine.


GL5 is fine. It's speced for hypoid gears, extreme pressure.



The best thing about the 200ES, along with the shaft drive and reverse, is the low range. I used low range all the time, especially around the house while pulling a trailer. It isn't just about being able to pull more, it makes it that much easier on the trike and when trail riding, I can take off in second if I want.

I know the 250ES has more power, but it's also 100 pounds heavier and doesn't have a low range. When on steep or rocky trails, the 200ES low range really shines.

[ATC King]

Just putting mine back together...

That's just showing off :)

Good to see some of those are still in good condition and being taken care of.

[VillageIdiot]

If you came across and entire 250ES front end, that's probably the better option. Larger diameter fork tubes, and a larger brake are two advantages.

How much of a 250ES would I need to swap? Where I am there's a lot more "parts only" stuff that I've seen listed on CL and FB than clean & complete bikes.

[MrConcdid]

If you want to swap the front end, find a 200x 83/84 only, that would give you disc brakes narrow front wheel and the best shocks of that generation of bike (pre 85)

But it sounds to me, you may never be happy, it will always be a hard tail, you may need to just sell it, cut your losses and buy what makes you happy. I think the 84's are great but I don't think you will ever get past the mistake/purchase.
any money you put into it will only add to what you have invested in it, making the purchase that much worse, a front end will run you $200 plus.

MrC.

[ATC King]

How much of a 250ES would I need to swap? Where I am there's a lot more "parts only" stuff that I've seen listed on CL and FB than clean & complete bikes.

How about just seeing what you've got before moving on to a swap.

You've got a pretty clean looking 200ES, maybe they'll look like the ones bkvette3 had.
If they look good enough to clean and reassemble and you don't intend to ride in mud or rain, they'll
be fine for a while longer. The closer to stock that you can keep it, the better it'll hold value. They're only original once.

If it turns out they are on their last leg, buying a complete 250ES parts machine will very likely be the lowest cost option for a fork swap, because it's all different from the 200ES forks and you'll need everything. Keep the forks, sell the rest on Ebay and make your money back, or more.


About 8 years ago, I was at a university auction and the agricultural department had a 250ES they sent to surplus, for the auction. It had the university and department name on it, along with a vehicle number. They wouldn't let me start it, so I didn't bid past $500. It looked to be in pretty good condition. I think it sold for $1,500.

[coolpool]

One thing to remember about changing your rear diff oil is to follow the recommended amount to put in (couple of ounces) and don't add it up to bottom of the filler hole as you would think is correct. It'll puke excess oil out the breather tube by the battery if you overfill it and ride for an extended amount of time. Ask me how I know.........!

I think the biggest pizz off for me on the 200es is the rear brake drum is recessed into the housing and is usually seized in there. And they are prone to intermittent spark issues which is commonly the CDI.

Blkvette, your 200es front gear is mint!

[MrConcdid]

I thought (could be wrong) but the 250es bearing set will not fit in the neck of a 200es, the bearing is physically larger. No one has mentioned it here.
I suggested a 83/84 200x or a 200s front end for that reason. my understanding was all 84 and down use the same neck and bearing and the 85 and up use a larger bearing and components.
is this not correct?

MrC.

[VillageIdiot]

But it sounds to me, you may never be happy, it will always be a hard tail, you may need to just sell it, cut your losses and buy what makes you happy. I think the 84's are great but I don't think you will ever get past the mistake/purchase.
any money you put into it will only add to what you have invested in it, making the purchase that much worse, a front end will run you $200 plus.

Sorry if it's coming across that way, that's not how I intend it. It's really just more of a "I know the front suspension will fail at some point, so I want to keep an eye out in case replacement options become available." I have no issue with buying parts today and storing them in the corner of my shop for years until the time I need them comes along.

[VillageIdiot]

One thing to remember about changing your rear diff oil is to follow the recommended amount to put in (couple of ounces) and don't add it up to bottom of the filler hole as you would think is correct. It'll puke excess oil out the breather tube by the battery if you overfill it and ride for an extended amount of time. Ask me how I know.........!

I downloaded a pdf of the 1984 200ES owner's manual and it says 11.8 oz and "make sure the recommended oil is filled up to the lower edge of the inspection hole", which the diagram shows the "inspection hole" is clearly just the filler hole. So in that case it seems to be the same procedure as a car for this model. I ended up doing the gear oil job last night and did it just like a car and pumped in oil until it just started dribbling out the filler hole and closed it back up. Did I do wrong?

[VillageIdiot]

I guess I'll use this thread to document my cleanup of this machine and if anyone has any feedback or advice for me as I go along I'd be glad to hear it. All I ever did with trikes was ride them back in my early teens, never worked on them (or any ATV) before, so all I know is based on what I've read on forums like this one or found on Youtube when I was thinking about buying one to try riding again.

Continuing going through this machine to get it ready to go play. Drained all the gas that it came with out of the tank. Noticed it was pretty orange and had particles floating in it. Tried to get a pic of it that showed the particles but
they didn't come through at all.

"Old" gas: https://imgur.com/DZScbUY


So I stuck my bore scope down in the tank and there's a little bit of rust down there. Not as much as I would have thought based on the color and amount of particulate floating in the gas, but I went ahead and pressure washed the tank and have it soaking in white vinegar now.

Gas tank scope video: https://youtu.be/k9M9JeFCbkQ


Got the carburetor out and sitting on the bench ready to clean. Waiting on for my set of carb jet indexed wires from Amazon that should be here tomorrow to tackle that project.




Quick side note, is the ability to attach images directly to a post on these forums tied to some kind of premium membership? I can't see it at all anywhere when I'm writing a post.

[ATC King]

"...I went ahead and pressure washed the tank and have it soaking in white vinegar now."

Don't get too carried away with the vinegar. The inside of that tank looks pretty dang good and you don't want to damage or remove any more of the factory coating on the steel. Clean it, fill it up and keep it full when sitting.

They will all rust in rear bottom corners at some point, but it's sooner for those that let them sit around half filled most of the time. Run that thing on reserve from time to time too, even if it's full. Any water in the bottom needs a chance to escape and the carb has a drain on the float bowl it it's a problem.

[bkvette3]

Inside of that tank is mint. As ATC King said "Easy on the vinegar - don't want to damage the factory coating inside the tank. Personally, I would run as is. Just keep the tank full at all times - especially in the winter.

[350for350]

It's not an easy habit to get into, but I try to fill up my steel tanks when I'm done riding. The up side is that you'll be ready to ride the next time without filling the tank.

[ATC King]

I have actually seen tanks people stripped the inside of and didn't line them. I guess they thought the tanks were bare metal on the inside from the factory.:wondering


All of the metal tanks on my trikes have Red Kote. That's after brass brazing the holes. I haven't been fortunate enough to have a non leaking OEM tank.

[VillageIdiot]

Well you guys were right, of course. In my excitement to get the machine cleaned up and ready to go out riding I've rushed into something I should have avoided completely. The actual inside of the tank looks so much worse now than it did before. I think I've now actually created a problem where one didn't exist, at least my username continues to be spot on accurate.

[ATC King]

Do the baking soda treatment then see what it looks like. If you've stripped the factory coating off, you'll have to line it. I use Red Kote, but there are two part epoxy liners as well. Red Kote is a PITA, because it sets by evaporation and takes careful attention to not make too thick or it won't cure. On the other hand, Red Kote can be stripped by pouring acetone in. The epoxies, are not so easily removed.

[VillageIdiot]

Do the baking soda treatment then see what it looks like. If you've stripped the factory coating off, you'll have to line it. I use Red Kote, but there are two part epoxy liners as well. Red Kote is a PITA, because it sets by evaporation and takes careful attention to not make too thick or it won't cure. On the other hand, Red Kote can be stripped by pouring acetone in. The epoxies, are not so easily removed.

Thanks ATC King. Yeah I already did baking soda + distilled water rinse to neutralize the vinegar but the whole tank flash rusted instantly afterwards. Really feel like a fool right now. Watching some Youtube videos about Red Kote and other sealers now.

[bkvette3]

It's not an easy habit to get into, but I try to fill up my steel tanks when I'm done riding. The up side is that you'll be ready to ride the next time without filling the tank.

I agreed with 350for350. I keep all my steel gas tanks filled to the top on all my ATCs' at all times - especially in the winter - condensation is the enemy - no rust problems internally in any of my tanks - OEM coating still intact.

I have a couple of extra clean, rust free Honda steel gas tanks in storage on the shelf - I put a couple of bottles of "cheap" 2 stroke oil inside for protection. Every once in a while - I give the tank a shake to distribute the oil around. Works well for me.

[coolpool]

I downloaded a pdf of the 1984 200ES owner's manual and it says 11.8 oz and "make sure the recommended oil is filled up to the lower edge of the inspection hole", which the diagram shows the "inspection hole" is clearly just the filler hole. So in that case it seems to be the same procedure as a car for this model. I ended up doing the gear oil job last night and did it just like a car and pumped in oil until it just started dribbling out the filler hole and closed it back up. Did I do wrong?

Hmmm interesting, maybe I'm doing something wrong? I'll have to snoop around on mine and see what's up.

[kb0nly]

For the tank, clean out the flash rust with a quick treatment of vinegar again, then drain it, spray some WD40 around inside, blow it out with compressed air or just drain out the excess WD40 and then immediately FILL IT with gas. Keep the tank topped off as others have mentioned. You let it sit for weeks or months half empty or less and you will get rust. But otherwise don't worry about it. Don't bother sealing or coating it, i know others will disagree but don't bother... That crap sucks... I have had so many tanks that were sealed and they flake off and plug the filter or fill the petcock with crap. I have an ATC90 that was rusty inside when i got it, i soaked with apple cider vinegar for 3 days, dumped it, it was nice bare metal, sprayed with WD40 to help get the water out, filled with fresh gas, waited a day, turned it on to reserve and drained a quart or so out to get any water that settled to the bottom, had a few drops that i missed, then tossed it back on the trike. It's been fine for years now, i forget what year i rebuilt that, the thread was on here, i'm pretty sure its been longer then five years now... That tank is still completely rust free, never been sealed or coated or any of that BS.

As for the rear end lube on the 200ES, i just did mine this spring, i generally change the rear end every year or so, depends on how much i have been using it. I do as the manual suggests, drain it, fill it until it dribbles out the fill hole, and call it good, just like a rear end fill on car.

coolpool if your getting oil puking out the breather tube my suggestion would be take the breather tube off, run a piece of wire through it and some hot water or just replace it. Mine did that when i first got it. The breather tube had some dirt in it and was partially plugged, causing it to kinda BURP when things heated up and it couldn't breath freely, it would suck in some air and puke out some oil with the pressure change. I cleaned out the breather tube and it stopped doing that. Only a few ounces of oil in the rear end isn't really enough to lubricate it properly. It does take almost 12oz like the manual suggests.