250ES Rear Brake Issues: SERENITY NOW!!!!

[bigtrout3]

I've got an '85 250ES Big Red with both rear brake cable adjustments (hand lever and foot lever) all the way in, but no brakes. The hand lever in particular has no braking power, but the foot lever has "some" braking.

I'm not sure what's going on here other than the arm that actuates the brake shoes isn't turning enough to push the shoes out to hit the drum. The index marks on the arm and the cam are matched up and I've done what the manual says to do...

At first I thought my cables were stretched out so I replaced them, no love.
Then I measured my brake shoes, and while in spec per the manual, were a little worn so I replaced them, no love.
I have to crank the adjusting wing nuts all the way down and compress the cable springs 100% to get what even feels like a little drag on the drum, but it's not enough to stop this beast when it's flying down a gravel road at warp speed.

What am I doing wrong here? I've had the entire brake assembly off the bike a couple of times to play with it, but it's not making sense.

[350for350]

Here's one possibility. Maybe the arm (at the drum) that actuates the rear brakes is not in the right spot on the splines. Maybe someone took it off and put it back on wrong. Try rotating that arm toward the front of the machine a little bit and see what that does.

[Dave8338]

Can you actuate the shoes/arm by hand and make it grab? Is the drum glazed up? Maybe hit it with a little 400-grit on the inside of the drum and see if it helps.

[shortline10]

Are you using OEM shoes ? All the cheap China shoes are crap .

[bigtrout3]

350for350: I had considered that, but the index marks are lined up on the arm (at the drum) and the spline shaft, so I'm assuming that's ok. Even if I move the arm towards the front of the bike, I'm not doing anything to give myself more adjustment room on the threaded part of the cable? I was almost thinking that the cables I used to replace the old cables are too long.

Dave8338: Yes, I can actuate the brakes shoes enough by hand to get it to grab, but it's more than what I can get the cable to pull forward. I have to really stomp on the foot lever to actuate the brake.

shortline10: they are caltric, so chinese, but for immediate purposes I would think that since they have thick linings that should get me in the ballpark of setting the brakes correctly.

Something else I've tried is using the adjusting nut up at the lever. I've tightened it all the way into the lever and all the way out, but nothing seems to change the overall crappiness of the brakes.

[Jim mac]

ca you move the arm back a couple splines on the brake to give yourself more adjustment? jim

[shortline10]

shortline10: they are caltric, so chinese, but for immediate purposes I would think that since they have thick linings that should get me in the ballpark of setting the brakes correctly.


The cheap China shoes are not cast correctly and will cause your issue .
Their are other brands that work ok like EBC , Veserh , SOA . The China shoes will give you a long peddle with no stopping power .

[bigtrout3]

shortline10: they are caltric, so chinese, but for immediate purposes I would think that since they have thick linings that should get me in the ballpark of setting the brakes correctly.


The cheap China shoes are not cast correctly and will cause your issue .
Their are other brands that work ok like EBC , Veserh , SOA . The China shoes will give you a long peddle with no stopping power .


Oh, Dang. I had no idea that could be an issue. The brakes I have on it are what was on it when I bought it a few years ago and rear brake slop has been a struggle since then. I guess I have never seen OEM shoes. I'll pick some up and hopefully that solves the issue. Thanks for the advice.

I don't like taking things out of spec on these machines because I feel like Honda designed it a certain way to work and if I'm getting away from that I'm masking other problems and as we all know ThESe ArE dEaTh MaChInEs!!!!!

[patriot1]

Post your progress and what you figure out. Listen to shortline, he is dead on correct 999.7 times out of 1000 and maybe even more than that.

[big specht]

Good Quality shoes are a most but you are dealing with 35 year old drums too. We have had to add material to the actuator cam to make the brakes work ok. Even with ebc shoes. I’ve welded a old sawzall blade to each side of the flat and welded up the edge so it could be smoothed so the shoes would slide smooth on it to compensate for the drum wear. The only reason I used the sawzall blade is cause it was the right width and it was laying there lol. If you are going to try this just cut the pieces to fit and put them on each side between the shoes and reinstall the drum and make sure it doesn’t drag. Not all drums are worn the same and not all sawzall blades are the same thinkness.

[bigtrout3]

Update: Honda brake pads came in and the outcome was the same as the Chinese brakes - soft lever.
I suppose that means my drum is out of spec, following big specht's advice I added a shim to the flat of the brake cam. The brakes are working now.
My next move it to try and find a better drum, although I know this one will likely last me several more years.

[big specht]

I did that to acouple of the big reds we have and they have been fine for years

[Shovelhead8069]

I have fixed this problem. Let me start by saying I lead a group of 5-7 guys to ride Big Reds in the WV Outlaw trails for 7yrs in a row. We live off the land camping and ride Big Reds every day across the rugged wilderness for a week each year. So this problem was more than an inconvenience for us. I thought my drums maybe were out of spec, a quick check with calipers told me that wasn't the case, tried different shoes to no avail! Cheap china, EBC, and even OEM. I even had custom cables made thinking the cables were all the wrong size (the housing does vary in length from different brands) None of this worked!!! Finally after Years of struggle out of desperation I tried something out of the box and it worked! The solution is easy! Your problem is adjustment, you've wound the spring tight under the adjustment wing. Take the wing, barrel and spring off. Cut the spring in half. Yes, lengthwise right in the middle. I bent the spring where I cut it with pliers to resemble the original end shape. Re assemble and BAM!!! Perfect brakes!! I'm so happy to get to share this information with fellow Big Red brethren that's also been struggling. We did it to all the bikes in the group and now have No problem with brakes. We did it to the front and back brakes on most. A couple bikes the front brakes were still within adjustment stock spring length. I've noticed no bad side effects from doing this at all. Get ready to stop that beast!!!

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Dave8338]

I have fixed this problem. Let me start by saying I lead a group of 5-7 guys to ride Big Reds in the WV Outlaw trails for 7yrs in a row. We live off the land camping and ride Big Reds every day across the rugged wilderness for a week each year. So this problem was more than an inconvenience for us. I thought my drums maybe were out of spec, a quick check with calipers told me that wasn't the case, tried different shoes to no avail! Cheap china, EBC, and even OEM. I even had custom cables made thinking the cables were all the wrong size (the housing does vary in length from different brands) None of this worked!!! Finally after Years of struggle out of desperation I tried something out of the box and it worked! The solution is easy! Your problem is adjustment, you've wound the spring tight under the adjustment wing. Take the wing, barrel and spring off. Cut the spring in half. Yes, lengthwise right in the middle. I bent the spring where I cut it with pliers to resemble the original end shape. Re assemble and BAM!!! Perfect brakes!! I'm so happy to get to share this information with fellow Big Red brethren that's also been struggling. We did it to all the bikes in the group and now have No problem with brakes. We did it to the front and back brakes on most. A couple bikes the front brakes were still within adjustment stock spring length. I've noticed no bad side effects from doing this at all. Get ready to stop that beast!!!

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
:w00t:
Makes sense to me. Once the spring is fully compressed you are out of travel with the cable. 1/2 the spring = 2X the potential adjustment. Good hack. :w00t:

[MrConcdid]

Did you de-glaze the inner drum? many time the drum will have a glaze on it and it will need to be removed, I like a 2 inch wire wheel on a cordless drill.
caltric pads are not great but will work and work well when adjusted. take the cable loose ate the drum, spin the wheel move the lever/arm by hand and see if the shoes contact the drum. Note how much the lever has to move. you may need to re-index the lever to the shaft (as already mentioned). now see how freely the cable move inside the cases? oil them if they need it or replace them if they are worn or chaffed.
You will want to set up each brake (hand/foot) separately adjust the foot first then the hand, I do it this way because the foot to me is more important, that you can maintain hand contact with the bars and use the foot to stop.
MrC.

[big specht]

I end up cutting groves in the shoes to help with the the mud and water that gets in there. THE biggest thing we need is to figure out how to make disk brakes fit in the oem wheels

[bigtrout3]

I have fixed this problem. Let me start by saying I lead a group of 5-7 guys to ride Big Reds in the WV Outlaw trails for 7yrs in a row. We live off the land camping and ride Big Reds every day across the rugged wilderness for a week each year. So this problem was more than an inconvenience for us. I thought my drums maybe were out of spec, a quick check with calipers told me that wasn't the case, tried different shoes to no avail! Cheap china, EBC, and even OEM. I even had custom cables made thinking the cables were all the wrong size (the housing does vary in length from different brands) None of this worked!!! Finally after Years of struggle out of desperation I tried something out of the box and it worked! The solution is easy! Your problem is adjustment, you've wound the spring tight under the adjustment wing. Take the wing, barrel and spring off. Cut the spring in half. Yes, lengthwise right in the middle. I bent the spring where I cut it with pliers to resemble the original end shape. Re assemble and BAM!!! Perfect brakes!! I'm so happy to get to share this information with fellow Big Red brethren that's also been struggling. We did it to all the bikes in the group and now have No problem with brakes. We did it to the front and back brakes on most. A couple bikes the front brakes were still within adjustment stock spring length. I've noticed no bad side effects from doing this at all. Get ready to stop that beast!!!

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

After reading this I immediately ordered a new spring set off ebay. The springs were already a little shorter than the OEM ones, but the price was right. I cut them so they would equal approximately half of the OEM springs and installed them.

Holy crap. It works! I can tame Big Red now and when I hit the brakes she squats down and stops on a dime.

Good fix! Can confirm it worked for me.

[Quintin]

Not part of this thread but how do you start a new thread?