350x Saga

[patriot1]

1985 350X ran and rode good. started easily. It had an exhaust bolt broken and another one missing. I pull the engine and took it to a machine shop to be drilled out.

Machine shop guy told me that I had to pull the head, so I did and took just the head back to him.

By the time he got it drilled out and ready, I had let the cylinder get surface rust in it. I ordered a hone. I honed it and it cleaned up nice.

I put it all back together and put it in the bike and it wouldn't start and run EXCEPT when I sprayed starting fluid in it.

I checked timing and valves over and over.

I checked compression with HF tester that had never worked and had 30 psi...I bought another tester from auto zone and got 60 psi.

I watched MRC's videos again and again.

I figured that it would not start on starter fluid at 60 psi and I figured it was the carburetor. I actually had a 223 cycles Curtie built 350X carb laying around.

I removed the carb and realized it was off of a 88 250X...(Hmmm interesting)

I put the Curtie carb on and nothing. Not even a pop.

I bought fresh gas and nothing.

Curtie carb popped with starting fluid.

Now I am back to thinking compression...maybe I rolled a ring?

Would a low compression bike run on starting fluid and not high octane gas?

Thoughts? advice? Prayers?

[Jim mac]

did you go back and check to make sure you didn't install the cam chain off by a tooth?jim

[patriot1]

I called myself doing that Jim

As well as checking the valves

As well as loosening the drain screw and making sure I had fuel flow.

Then I had a thought...WEAK SPARK!!

I went out today and checked for spark. I saw spark and then I didn't or maybe I did because it is had to tell when you are kicking it....

So I recorded with my phone and saw spark but not all the time.

I went to get my 82 year old neighbor to watch for spark. He is a real mechanic, unlike myself.

A few kicks later he confirmed...WEAK SPARK.

I changed the plug and big blue arcing sparks!!! YEE HAW

I put the 250X carb back on it and then went and put my boot on and kicked it about 45 times...

ABSOLUTLY NOTHING...Not even a hint of a pop.

Sprayed some ether in it and it started on the second kick and ran for less than 9 seconds

Tried to start it with out ether and nothing.

I came in for the night

[Jim mac]

I had a intermitten spark issue last year on a new to me 200x. it had weak spark with the plug in it, no spark with a new plug, changed the coil cdi harness since I had extra stuff. finally swapped the stator and it runs fine.
I'd go back and try another compression test. kick it a good 10 or 12 times. jim

[patriot1]

That's the next plan.

Thanks Jim

[350for350]

Be sure to hold the throttle wide open while you're doing the compression check. Did you get your decomp problem figured out?

[patriot1]

Yes 350! Or maybe I will remove it all together.

I did get a new cable. Installled it and it kicks much better. I still need to adjust it and I don't understand what "1/14 of an inch freeplay" that is in the manual means. But I will get to that later.

[knappyfeet]

Thoughts? advice? Prayers?

Prayers.

God I hate when this happens because it happens to all of us at some time and it's frustrating.

I would assume that if it ran and started fine before you pulled off the head and honed the cylinder.......and with all things being equal it won't now....that it must be something with the head or cylinder, etc. Unless of course other problems just started to manifest at the same time.

I'm curious....when it ran for about 9 seconds...what did it sound like? Any abnormal sounds? Any abnormal running issues in that 9 seconds?

Because to be honest it sounds like a spark or fuel issue. A fuel issue especially if it ran fine for those 9 seconds.

Good luck.

[ATC200X4716]

Did you put new rings in the honed cylinder or use the same rings? The rings lap in to the cylinder, so a re-hone needs new rings. You may have a worse ring seal than you did previously. Any chance of having someone tow you to pop start it? I know that is no easy task on a 3wheeler sometimes, not to mention on a 350x, but the extra speed may build you some compression to get it to fire. Yes ether is more volatile and will ignite at a lower compression than gasoline so it kind of makes sense it fires on ether and not on gas if the compression is low. Of course make sure can timing is correct and valves have some clearance.

[MrConcdid]

Hey Patriot1,

Man I hate this for you. I pulled my 350x engine 3 times, before getting it right, never the same issue. did you install new rings? did you put the piston in backwards? did you check the ring gap in the cylinder after the hone?
Literally mine popped once and only once on starter fluid the time I found the collapsed rings. Now that you know you have good spark, and I'm sure you checked the timing 100 times (me too) I would feel confidant is saying pull the engine 1 more time, verify the answers to the questions above. who knows you may discover something else during the tear down. I am betting collapsed rings.

I wish I was closer to help.
MrC.

[ps2fixer]

It's hard to say for sure what's going on, but if you're confident rings, valves, etc are good and the compression loss is likely from the hone job (even a freshly rebuilt engine can be low on compression at first till the rings seat), I'd try to run it on propane. Portable propane torch stuffed in the carb with it full blast open (don't light it) and kick it a few times. It should bare min pop on it, generally it can run small engines at idle pretty well and should be enough to solve fuel issues for short term testing. Run it for a bit to let it warm up a little and have the rings seat some and see if you can remove the torch. If you remove it and it dies, I'd say there's also a fuel related issue, plugged jet, that type of thing. If it stays running, I'd run it easily and give it a good heat cycle, let it cool off and see if the compression jumped up much.

General rule of thumb is an engine will run on 100 psi of compression, some lawn mower engines spec around 80-90psi, so 60psi might be on the low end of what's possible to make a gas engine run. The actual stock compression is much much greater though and is far out of spec, going off memory but pretty sure it's 150+ psi for the spec, might be like 170ish been a while since I looked, the higher spec is mainly from the higher compression engine.

Of course if you're nervous around propane, don't follow my advice, there's a possible chance a back fire could ignite the torch so be mindful of back fires. I've never had one light, but it's been a great diag tool since the torch mixes the fuel quite well to run on for short term tests.


For spark issues, get a spark tester that physically has a gap, the PET-4000 is a good one, most typical engines you test them at a 6mm gap (1/4 in), if it can't make that jump, it has weak spark still. Bright white/blue spark does not guarantee good spark, but yellow/orange spark does guarantee weak spark (even though sometimes it can run on it still). Automotive coils can jump like an inch, but they operate at a higher voltage.

[patriot1]

Wow! Thanks guys!! I will follow all advice before I pull the engine again.

Here's an update.

I ordered a compression tester like the one shortline suggested. "Buy once, cry once" MrC

I had 100 PSI, nothing more with oil in the cylinder.

I ordered a leak down tester (per el Camexican)

It was $30 and junk from amazon and it didn't work right.

It got cold and wet for a couple of weeks

I decided to use the China leak down tester today and....


Air freely flowing from the exhaust, so that's good, I was expecting from the dip stick hole.

I'll look at it again soon and update y'all.

Thanks again!!

[patriot1]

So, after I slept on the air flowing freely from the exhaust, I realized that when I put the air in it, I had knocked it off TDC.

Glad I realized that.

Went back a few days later and made it to where the engine wouldn't spin when I put air in and tried it again.

Cheap, China, Amazon leak down tester leaked air from and around the gauges so I quit for the day and returned that one.

Ordered another one, I think it was OTC brand and when it arrived improved quality was apparent.

Used it today and ran it up to 50psi. I was not comfortable putting 100psi in the bike.

Engine was losing 40% of air with the majority coming from the oil stick hole.

Like I thought, I need rings, like ATC200X4976 also said.

So now the engine is coming back out.

Much better knowing what is wrong after properly diagnosing.

I do think that I could have pulled it and got it started and maybe it would have built some compression

Anyway: Here is a picture of the culprit

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[MrConcdid]

Lord of the Rings. My pretty.

[patriot1]

Back at it finally.

Engine out and torn down, look at pics and then tell me what you see?

Where did I screw up?

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Look at the up and down vertical marks?? Normal?

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Is the bottom "oil ring" Supposed to be proud?

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top of piston

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valves

Thoughts? Prayers? Advice?

[Shad Owe]

Back at it finally.

Engine out and torn down, look at pics and then tell me what you see?

Where did I screw up?

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Look at the up and down vertical marks?? Normal?

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Is the bottom "oil ring" Supposed to be proud?

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top of piston

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valves

Thoughts? Prayers? Advice?

Don't hone it yourself this time. You ruined it.

Lots of oil ended up in the cylinder.

Good news is that it's just a motor.

You'd be further ahead to take it somewhere and just work the hours it takes to pay for it.

[ATC200X4716]

Still a lot of vertical score marks, but can you take a picture of the top of the cylinder? Can you feel a ridge at the top of the cylinder? A 3 arm hone is only going to follow the out of round shape and put new scratch marks in it. It won't actually make it round. I would just go oversize piston and be done with it. If you can't get someone to bore and hone it PM me.

[patriot1]

Shad Owe:

What do you see in the pictures that makes you say that I ruined it?

ATC200x4716

Thanks man! Here is the top of the cylinder:

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I do not feel a ridge at the top, all very smooth, however...(Full disclosure-Paul Harvey)

I did not put grease on the rings before I installed...my bad.

I wet tested the head.

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Then I got to wondering how long the WD-40/blaster mix should stay without any leakage so I asked MrC and about an hour later he told me "15 minutes"

So I went to check it again.

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So for once in my life, I feel that my head is ok...

Shipping out to G&C ATV Discount in Somerville, TN this morning. That guy does a good job at a very fair price.

I'll be back, as the Saga continues.

[ATC200X4716]

If you look at the top maybe 1/4 of the cylinder it looks to have a nice crosshatch. That's the way the whole cylinder should look. New rings won't seal on the polished surface below that. As for heads, as long as the valves aren't bent and you have some lash it will run fine.

[Shad Owe]

If you look at the top maybe 1/4 of the cylinder it looks to have a nice crosshatch. That's the way the whole cylinder should look. New rings won't seal on the polished surface below that. As for heads, as long as the valves aren't bent and you have some lash it will run fine.

Lol. If you think his hone job looks good I'll be sure to never pay attention to any of your advice.

"Grease the rings"? Lmao

Take it to someone. You have no idea what you're doing.

[patriot1]

Shad Owe:

You are correct; I am not an expert by any means and my knowledge is quite limited.

As stated in the earlier post, the cylinder is on it's journey to G&H in Somerville, TN.

But you didn't answer my question...

[Shad Owe]

Shad Owe:

You are correct; I am not an expert by any means and my knowledge is quite limited.

As stated in the earlier post, the cylinder is on it's journey to G&H in Somerville, TN.

But you didn't answer my question...

I can tell because of the way that it is.

Your pattern sucks and the scratches are way too rough. First of all once a cylinder has rusted you'll never just hone it back by hand. If you don't have a bore mic (or possibly even know what one is) you shouldn't be holding a hone.

If I had to guess I'd say you installed the used rings. They scraped that hone off in seconds, although new rings wouldn't last long either. Can't you see how much oil blow-by there was?

Anyone who has ever properly honed a cylinder should be able to see that you were way too aggressive with the hone. Most people who suggest using one are forgetting they never got their own project running right. Honing is something that takes practice and failure to even be OK at. Anyone says otherwise has gotten lucky or has a misconception.

[Shad Owe]

The big lesson here is to NEVER EVER make a one cylinder engine a SAGA. You either got it or you don't. Once you realize one way or the other accept it. It's way more of a flex to have a known pro do the work than it is to slog through it and pay triple for a maybe ok engine.

You're taking advice from someone who had to take their motor out three times but there are pros who could rebuild it blindfolded hanging upside down over a fire and it will be perfect. Consider that.

[ATC200X4716]

Sorry I meant top 1/4" not the top 1/4. The hone only hit the part above where the top ring gets to. Honing is not hard if you have the right machine, tooling and gage.

[MrConcdid]

Hey patriot1
Looking at the cylinder there is almost no crosshatching half way through, im sure that Gand H will bore it to the next size. Did you ever mic it? What bore is it now?
Your reading of 100psi to me was the tell, freash rings on a decent crosshatch should higher psi. I think your on the right track now.
It can be frustrating when you have multiply issues at the same time.
Stay positive, you will get it right.

[patriot1]

Ok guys: here we go again.

Persistence pays off

Quitters never win, winners never quit.

Or maybe I just wanted to give Shad Hoe more reasons to ridicule me so he can feel better about himself and not have to think about his ED.

Got stuff back from G&H Honda, try them. Great prices and fast turn around.

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Putting everything back together according to the manual and torquing to specs:

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Finished today and should be able to put it back in the bike tomorrow.

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Update soon, hopefully we'll ride tomorrow.

Also a surprise to come.

[350for350]

I hope you'll be enjoying the ride soon.

[patriot1]

Slow day today so not riding yet 350, but progress was made.

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Engine installed. MrC says it's a 15 minute job, I disagree but it was easier this time than last time, so maybe I'll get to 15 minutes one day?

I realized I didn't have any oil and I have been missing this spacer and a front hanger bolt since I got this bike.

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Where could I get the spacer and bolt? Please allow me to introduce you to Saga II.

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We'll refer to Saga II as "Dog" for the time being.

To be continued...

[patriot1]

Well...


We have a runner!!!


More on Saga I later, running is not riding.

Let's talk about "Dog"

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This was actually the first 350x I ever bought. It was extremely hard to kick and this was when MrC was dealing with his first 350X that was also hard to kick.I was busy with other projects and knew the hard to kick was over my head, so it sat...

Until I needed a spacer for the upper rear engine mount on Saga.

I pressure washed it and discovered a few things.

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1) the rear has been welded.

2) it has a twist throttle :(

3) Different carb-possible 300ex???

4) tires suck

5) low quality spray paint (and overspray) on the frame and other parts.

6) real dog

7) are you ready for 7???


IT HAS AN 85 STICKER BUT AND 86 ENGINE THAT IS VERY CLEAN AND GOOD!!! OH YEAH!!

I looked at the decompression cable and noticed that it was way out of whack so I adjusted it.

And after I got Saga I to start and run...


I got this old b****h to do the same!!! I had basically relegated it to parts!!

Today was a good day!

Cheers!

[knappyfeet]

Congratulations on getting it running.

Now you can start tuning it up and servicing things that need to be serviced

[Footy]

That's fantastic! Show us the carb so we can figure out what it is from.

[patriot1]

Not much time to piddle today, but still a good day.

Footy, I think we have an extremely dirty Chinese replica 350x carb on the old dog. Remember the first one, Saga I had an 88 250X carb on it.

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But have no fear!! Straight out of Morristown, TN!!!

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This came from a box of parts from a different project, (another one that I have not started on)

I started Saga and ran it for over a minute and then let it die: Saga I needs:

1) valves adjusted

2) sealing washer on the oil line

Then we'll see what else it needs.

I put the Curtie carb on Saga II/Dog and kicked and kicked. It'd pop and want to run but I couldn't keep it going but a few seconds.

I will look at the valves on this one next.

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And on a side note, in my down time, I have been working on these two 86 125m's:

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The closest one needed a starter and I really didn't want to buy one from eBay. I got the one on it and took it to a very old shop in town, the kind of place where the old man still running it knows how to fix stuff. He fixed my starter for $20!!!

[Footy]

Nice finds on the 2nd gen 125m's. Everyone of those I find near me is a complete roach nest.

[patriot1]

So...Never one to let a good thread die (and persistence pays off)

It's been almost a year since I have been able to mess with my 350x projects (Saga 1 and Saga II-dog)

But I have been busy on a few other things:

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2 86 125m's (sold camo seat)

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cleanest 84 Quadfather in the Arkansas Delta (sold)

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Fl350-best thing since boobs!!

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1974 70-just very cool

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Then I pulled Saga II into the garage, cleaned fuel tank and carb and it runs like an escaped convict!! It's still rough but it's running and I rode it today for the first time-details coming soon.

[patriot1]

I borrowed fenders from Saga I

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Doesn't look too bad from 30 feet and dressed in red, then I rode it for the first time and without brakes-I had to take a detour through a farmer's bean field...

271447 uh-oh....sorry-Rain on the scarecrow

So, at the very least, it needs brakes and clutches, and who knows what else?

[patriot1]

I don't know why my pictures are loading upside down?

But anyway...

Today's haul:

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Good day

[Footy]

Nice! I am still tinkering with my 350X. Someday....

[patriot1]

Footy!! If you need a piece or a part, let me know?

[Footy]

Footy!! If you need a piece or a part, let me know?

Will do. and thanks.

[patriot1]

So....I started this thread in Feb of 2023...

Sometimes, you just need to step away and give a project some time.

Maybe, like a year or so? It worked for the old dog (Saga II)

And today I started back on the bike that started this thread-(Saga I)

I started over and:

Checked for spark-replaced the plug-good spark.

Oil down the plug hole and a few slow kicks


hooked up temp gas tank (Squeeze bottle)


Choke on and kicked

little shot of ether

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And we have another runner!!!

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Oh Yeah baby!!!

To be continued...

[MrConcdid]

Looking good Patriot1, how do you like the caRB FROM CURTIE?

[patriot1]

I don't think that I am even using the Curtie carb. I believe I am running a 250x and a Chinese carb and both are responding well.

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Here is a picture of the two dressed in red.

To be continued...