Could the pred. be the new top dog?

[bigred110]

I saw couple photos from their 50th bash and I saw a picture where it says that the predator make 50HP and has the highest power to weight ratio on the market. But it doesn't show the DS650 on the list.

http://forums.atvconnection.com/i/GalleryImages/17408/Copy%20of%20misc%20421.jpg

[Wickedfinger]

From what I've seen in most of the magazine articles, the Predator makes 42hp. In most drag races, it seems to always come in second to the mighty DS. Now, Polaris might have upped that mark for the '05 model by adding 8 more ponies somehow by changing the camshaft profile, a better airbox, or by modifying the exhaust .... you got me, it would pretty miraculas for a 4-stroke to gain that much without a couple of grand of work spent on it. I'm no engineer though so who really knows. Its interesting that Polaris chose the TRX and the YFZ to include in that poster board - they have to ask themselves what market is the Predator really aimed at. The open class is where it seemingly belongs but unless it sheds about 50lbs somehow - the 250 - 440 race class isn't the right one. It might have the power to weight ratio on the R and YFZ (which is what matters for drag racing), but in terms of MX, overall weight plays a huge role in terms of handling. This can be fixed by Polaris, but they would need to really offer Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki like full race team type support to even have the Predator be competitive in GNCC or the others. Anyway, the truth is, that poster board needs to be taken with a grain of salt - its up at a purely Polaris function, they arn't going to include anything on it that takes away from the Predator. If they were being "fair", the DS has more suspension travel, so that would have looked bad - which is probably why its not included.

[bigred110]

They changed a allot of stuff on the pred. Front rezzie's(on TLD), new shifter, close ratio tranny(on TLD).
Here's a list of new stuff that they added to the new pred.
http://forums.atvconnection.com/i/GalleryImages/17408/Copy%20of%20misc%20418.jpg

The TLD on the right on the reg pred. on the left.
http://forums.atvconnection.com/i/GalleryImages/17408/Copy%20of%20misc%20497.jpg

[bigred110]

They also compared the Raptor in the HP chart.
To me the pred. doesn't really fall in specific category. It's to heavy for a sport quad(EX. YZF450 & TRX450R) but it doesn't have a big motor(EX. Raptor & DS650). So to me it falls in between those two categories.

Have you seen the Polaris military 700 quad? 992lbs!!!!!!

[TimSr]

Horsepower is such a tiny part of any type of racing. Power to weight ratio is also a very small factor. Its not the same as getting the power to the ground. You guys really need to get off that! You need to throw away those charts and start watching real world competitions. The DS650 is a big heavy pig. Thats probably why its not on a power to weight ratio chart. It does fine in wide open spaces, like desert racing. It stinks on the MX track, and there is nothing immpressive about if for wooded cross country racing either. Its drag strip performance is less than impressive too, unless it happens to be hard pack with loose dirt on top. The Raptor, while being quite a bit lighter, looses those advantages by sticking most of its weight towards the front. They dont perform much better on MX track, but dont do too awful bad in cross country. Since the Predators first came out, they have made very impressive showings at both MX and XC. Ill give the new 450s an edge for improved handling, but the Predator holds its own on any holeshot, and is still a fine handling MX quad. In cross country, If give the Predator the edge, as the 450's features are more MX oriented, a disadvantage in XC. They still do well in XC, but the Predator is a little better setup for that type riding.
Im speaking stock, as you can pretty much set anything up for anything. And if you want the best comparisons, watch amateur competitions. Their machines resemble whats on dealer's floors. Pro Quads dont count because they have little in common with what you buy from the dealer.

[atvpsycho]

You have got it all wrong the Polaris has a better motor than the Raptor and weighs like 10 pounds more so it technically is in that category, bigred110

[Wickedfinger]

Horsepower is such a tiny part of any type of racing. Power to weight ratio is also a very small factor.

I think, in terms of Drag racing, you couldn't be more wrong. Horsepower and a quads weight are the biggest part of that type of racing, without a doubt. The third and almost as important part as the other two would be traction and power delivery - but - without the ponies to throw, traction is meaningless. I do totally see your point as it pertains to MX type races where every bike is about the same but let me throw this wrench at it. If what you say is true, then in MX, how come the 250/450 class is faster around the track then the 125's?. If I'm wrong about this, let me know.

[TimSr]

If horsepower and weight ratios were the primary factors in a drag race, then you would consistantly see the same winners on different terrain. Also you are continually citing PEAK hp which is one spot on the entire RPM range. Motors produce totally different horsepower at different RPMs. This is what is correctly referred to as low end, midrange, and top end (which has NOTHING to do with gearing). The range of RPMs that delivers the most horsepower we call "the power band". Some machines have a wide, even one, some machines have one that is very high yet very narrow. We all know we can alter that with piping, but within limits. It becomes very obvious when comparing 4 strokes and 2 strokes. Each machine has a different range, and where that range falls and how wide it is is a lot more important than where it peaks. Weight ratios are a factor, but not as great as weight distribution, which is machine geography, or simply where and how the weight is located and applied. It is frame geometry and weight distribution that made the TRX250R. Put one next to a Banshee, and run it on a hard dirt track and youll see the 250R easily blow by while the Banshee spins and fishtails. Does the 250R have a more powerful motor? Put them in sand and watch how that quickly turns around. Some like to call this traction, but the real problem is weight distribution. If the Banshee's same weight were centered like the R, things would look a lot different. The Raptor suffered the same fate as the Banshee, with weight too far forward AND too high. Awesome performer on paper, but performance that cant be applied due to machine geometry and weight distribution. It should eat DS650's all day on drags because of the DS650 weight problem, but it comes down to terrain, and whether 50% of the weight on the back wheels of a heavier machine is better than 40% of the weight of a lighter machine. If drags were uphill,it would improve the odds for machines with weight distribution like the Banshee and Raptor. Trikes go through mud and snow better than similar quads, not because they are lighter, but because they have a higher percentage of their total weight over the rear wheels. Certainly, if all factors are the same other than total weight, lighter weight is an advantage, but where and how the weight is used is more crucial than the total amount of it.

The power band is a lot more crucial than the peak HP, and what type works best depends on terrain. A high narrow peaky top end powerband tends to break loose the wheels and spin when you hit the power band, where and more even powerband doesnt kick in so suddenly and harshly, and results in less wheelspin which = wasted power. This is why two strokes usually perform better in the sand, where the instant-on powerband can be used. This is why when you get on a hard dry dirt track (like Haspin Acres was) you get 4 strokes having an advantage, and 350X's blowing by fishtailing Banshees, and DS650's beating 250Rs. As far as "having ponies to throw", any adult quad or trike has more than adequate power to spin its wheels in sand or on dirt, so every one of them is throwing ponies away, rather than throwing pines.

As for MX races, there could not be larger difference between quads in the same class. The 250 and 125 classes you are referring to are for two wheeled bikes, which are all of very similar design and geography and performance, and displacement is the only major difference. Youll also notice they run larger 4 strokes in smaller displacement classes. In quad MX classes, most classes are open. With the exeption of limits in the Blaster/300EX classes (in which the Blasters dominate by a long shot). In most you can run everything from a Blaster to a Raptor, but you dont see a huge difference in lap times. The 240 Blasters are about as quick as the 250Rs, many (these are almost all highly modified) putting out more HP (creating a HP to weight ratio advantage). They have one major disadvantage, and that is suspension limitations.

The Predators have consistantly outperformed the DS650 and the Raptor at the track and HS since day one. There are still plenty of Raptors, but the DS650s have dropped out of the local MX's and Hs's here. My point being the Predator being Top Dog over those is old news around here, and it didnt take a new HP chart for those in the amateur racing circuits to reach that conclusion.

[GreyhoundRugby]

Dont screw with senior. when hes challenged he throws down atv/atc knowledge long enough to make a short novel. All bow down to the senior

[Wickedfinger]

Dont screw with senior. when hes challenged he throws down atv/atc knowledge long enough to make a short novel. All bow down to the senior

You have to challenge Tim sometimes ..... you really get his best and most interesting thoughts about any certain subject that way. He and I have been going at it both for and against the same point of view for as long as there has been a 3WW. The difference is, we respect each other, have been friends here for a long time, and know how to have a civilized discusion without it breaking into a name calling free for all. That being said I think hes a dumb poopy head!.

Tim I agree with you on every point you said, absolutely - but - I think we are arguing a different idealogy. I come from a Muscle Car type background. I grew up with them around me, I learned how to wrench working on them. I am a straight line racer at heart and always will be. That being said - my whole ATVing experience comes back to that basic point - I love to drag race. Don't get me wrong, I can whip around the trails with the best of them, I just don't have the pedigree that you have to be anything close to what you would call an MXer. To me, just like with cars, its ultimately "power" that wins the race. I'm not talking gearing, I'm not saying tires, I'm just saying - horsepower wins races.
The 250 and 125 classes you are referring to are for two wheeled bikes, which are all of very similar design and geography and performance, and displacement is the only major difference. ... and displacement equals horspower, which is exactly what I'm talking about.

Now, in applying that to ATVing - I also know that the machines powerband characteristics play a key role in how it will "race" but if you know machine A is set up perfectly in every way but dosen't have the ponies to go with B, why bother racing?. Hey, maybe I've been riding a Polaris for too long - they develop most their power right away and its the tranny that plays catch-up - but - if you were to compare say the Trail Blazer 250 to a 400 in a race, its no contest - the 400 smears it. But why?. They have the same suspension, same tranny, same gearing and close to the same power delivery and power band characteristics - the difference is Horsepower, plain and simple.

Tim, do you think one of the major problems with the DS's is the fact that they have too much wheel travel, especially for MX or XC or is it how that suspension is matched to the chassis?.

[smokinwrench]

From what I have seen here. We have a dry sandy bottom river bed. The DS is perfect for this type of riding. We run flat out wide open throttle for miles. The DS is the machine to have for this type of riding. When we get down to the dunes and trails the DS is not that great.

The Preditor fits very well in the same class as the DS and the Raptor all 3 are big bore machines that have to run in the open class.

I have been seriously considering buying a new quad. With money and performance being and issue, I am leaning towards a Predator.

[KASEY]

i haven't got a chance to ride a preddy ,, and i don't know how much they cost ,,, so i am not very informed!! BUT i have a yfz and unless it costs alot less i can't see how you can get must better at all for an all around machine,,,, i have nothing bad to say about the yfz at all,,, i have drag raced several trx450r's and the yfz has more power easily,, i weigh 200#'s and have spanked several lighter kids on trx's too,,,, mine is 100% stock and will remain that way as long at i own it,,,,

[TimSr]

When asked, if someone really wants to know I will explain it. Its really pretty simple. All other factors being equal, more HP is, of course, better. Ive never seen two different quads with all other factors equal. Even in straight line drag racing, a huge part of the motor's power is going to waste, through wheelie or wheelspin, or unnecessary friction and drag. If youve got these other problems, adding horsepower isnt going to do much for you, and when it come to comparing ATVs, these other factors are what sets them apart alot more than which delivers the most horsepower.
If Peak HP was the overiding factor, all youd have to do is calculate hp to weight ratios, and you should have an accurate list of drag race winners. Im saying if you took your list to the drags, it woudlnt even be close. Then if you took the same set of machines from a dirt drag track to a sand drag track, the previous results would turn upside down. Its only the portion of a motor's power that you can harness and put to use that makes a difference.

I agree with Kasey on the YFZ but I dont really think of it in this group of big bores, that are old news. It is a great example of how improving the entire system has many more performance benefits than simply increasing displacement.

[Bill X_R]

All I know is the DS and my Cannondale were spankin just about everything out at haspin....in drags that is!! :Bounce :Bounce :Bounce :Bounce :Bounce

[Billy Golightly]

I think I recall getting pretty close to your DS on my Z Bill.... ;-)

[SpeedBump]

@ our drags.....Honda 450 and Yamaha 450 are both running neck and neck. Whoever is a better rider USUALLY wins. It doesn't take much to give up your advantage riding the Yamahas. Both machines are very close in performance. I will agree with Kasey that the Yammy is faster stock, but to be honest...I have yet to see a stock one entered in ANY racing around here. Most guys have opted just to do the cheap and easy mods....exhaust timing trick, airbox w/jetting, and pop out the baffle in the exhaust. These small things drop the Yamaha's ETs by a full sec or MORE in the 600' drags. As for the Honda....ya gotta spend some $$$ to keep up. Polaris Predators, well, they just get their arses handed to them here at the track. They are just too heavy and DON'T put out enough power. (yes, they got mods too) Before anyone starts beating on me calling me biased or anything like that....I race a 2 stroke, and NONE of the above mentioned machines. Remember, these quads have minor mods and are NOT strictly drag bikes. Last Saturday, there were OVER 20 4 stroke quads in the amatuer class. The only mods allowed are, pipes, airbox/jetting/carbs and of course tires/gearing/susension. I watched all night long as 450s went back and forth....Honda wins, Yamaha wins.....Honda wins, Yamaha wins......so on and so on. up in the OPEN class, a couple built 400EXs (over 500cc bigbores with wheelie bars) were giving everyone fits....Raptors, and DS 650s, didn't have a chance...they were basically amateur bikes running against highly modded smaller displacement machines. A few guys had some 450s in that class too. They did quite well. When you cam those machines and do other internal engine mods, they REALLY FLY! I had a chance to see some time slips, and I am glad I wasn't running them either. BTW the high HP Banshees STILL dominate....a few of them run over 100mph. Compare that to the 450s, DS, Raptors, 250Rs, LT 250R and my Tecate4 all running between 70-85mph. It would take a HUGE amount of modding to get the 4 strokes over 100mph.( IF it could be done... )

[SpeedBump]

i haven't got a chance to ride a preddy ,, and i don't know how much they cost ,,, so i am not very informed!! BUT i have a yfz and unless it costs alot less i can't see how you can get must better at all for an all around machine,,,, i have nothing bad to say about the yfz at all,,, i have drag raced several trx450r's and the yfz has more power easily,, i weigh 200#'s and have spanked several lighter kids on trx's too,,,, mine is 100% stock and will remain that way as long at i own it,,,,

Kasey, wanna get some extra FREE HP? Do the exhaust cam timing mod...I am telling you from experience....It works wonders....My buddy gained .5-.9 sec in the 600' drags JUST by removing the baffle from the stocker pipe, upping the main jet and bumping the exhaust one tooth. ( in case some guys think that amount of time is insignificant..... @ 70+ mph, you will see a HUGE difference in distance gained)

[3Razors]

I have never seen a Predator take a win as far as drag racing is concerned, whether it be at Glamis or the drags. Plus it still is and always will be a poor quality Polaris! The YFZ is the top quad for MX.