Two strokes, 2006, and the EPA

[Apollo]

2006 is going to be here before we know it. Does anybody know the latest on the EPA and two strokes? The last I heard (about a year ago), is that starting in 06 you cannot take a two stroke race bike like a CR,KX,YZ,RM,etc on public land. You would still be able to take them to tracks and private land. Is this still accurate?

[TTribaLL]

Why do we let stuff like this happen? Why don't we fight back?

:mad:

[TheOlderFox]

Sometimes you do have to think of the environment. The air isn't going to clean itself at the rate we put fumes into it. Sure 2-strokes may make some power, but they are not the most efficient by design. Think of the future.

[OldSchoolin86]

Sometimes you do have to think of the environment. The air isn't going to clean itself at the rate we put fumes into it. Sure 2-strokes may make some power, but they are not the most efficient by design. Think of the future.

I agree but the 2-stroke problem is very small in the big picture.

[Jeb]

Sometimes you do have to think of the environment. The air isn't going to clean itself at the rate we put fumes into it. Sure 2-strokes may make some power, but they are not the most efficient by design. Think of the future.


I hope that was a joke. If not, I can see a little easier why Hillary Clinton is senator up there... :rolleyes:


Hasn't Mt. St. Helens released more pollution into the air in the few recent weeks that it's been awake than humans have in the entire 20th century? And it hasn't destroyed the environment.

I agree with OldSchoolin. 2 stroke pollution is negligible. What's next after banning two-strokes? Ban all off road vehicles since they are mostly for recreation? Nobody has to "play" on an off road vehicle. Think of the future. Hope you see my point.

[TimSr]

The impact of all two cycle motors in the country combined to the environment in insignificant compared to other forms of air pollution. There are also many environmentally friendly two cycle oils now available, such as Blue Marble, that allow two strokes to burn cleaner than 4 strokes. The greatest environmental threat from ATVs is from their irresponsible operation, and not from their exhaust emmissions.

You should be no more worried about the 2 stroke "ban" than you were about the 3 wheeler "ban". They will gradually be phased out of production, as they have been doing over the past several years, and eventually you will see less and less of them in the field, just like trikes. The SWAT team is not going to bust down your doors and take your two stroke.

[TheOlderFox]

I would agree with TimSr that 2-strokes are getting phased out. It's natural progression and the manufacturers trying to meet emissions requirements. I am not against 2-strokes, I just would like to see a cleaner environment. You just have to start somewhere and not everything you can control. Mt . St Helen is one of those that can't be controlled. Pollution controls are on cars in many states now including NY. Cars that don't meet emission controls won't be re-inspected. Industry has standards to follow, so it will filter down to ATV's as well. If you would like I can share with you more info of what we are doing to our bodies and environment if you would like. My undergraduate work was in Environmental and Forest Biology and I am a Toxicologist now, so I feel that I have a leg to stand on. I just don't like when people feel that " it's so small how can it affect the big picture" We all have to do our part. Sorry, I don't want to sound like I am on a soap box, but I see first hand experience of what is happening and it makes me sick to think that a lot of what I see is due to human ignorance.

[Billy Golightly]

I think there are A LOT more important things to worry about in the world then the little puff cloud a 2 stroke makes in the morning when its cold. Like the billions of gallons of waste dumped into the ocean each year for one.

I go into hardware stores now and I'm seeing 4 stroke weed wackers and leaf blowers, chainsaws probably soon. It makes me sick.

[Speedster700HP]

Bah. :mad: 2-strokes forever! :Bounce

I thought this was only in certain states, is it in all states? If so, I guess I will just have to find some private land somewhere.

[1984kxtTECATE]

I dont think the 2 strokes will be banned from public land, I just think that they will have a production ban set place. Id love to see them kick all the 2 stroke riders off the dunes.

[TeamGeek6]

2 strokes and diesel engines are in the process of being cleaned up. Theres a lot of research in controlling exhaust emissions in 2 strokes for even use in cars. 2 strokes have so many production and operating advantages - they are so cheap to build, and make so much power per cubic inch that they cant be ignored.

Diesel technology is being reworked too. The big items on both are cylinder design exhaust catalysts and engine noise.

[Jason Hall]

If they ban 2-strokes before they make these guys park some of these black smoke bellowing diesel dogs, then I think we should all get together & kick the E.P.A. In the ass. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[performula]

Yes, diesel is supposed to run very clean by 2007 or 2008.

The problem I see is bring something back that is phased out. Although it is new technology, companies are not as willing to try something "new". Or at least my opinion.

[Dynofox]

If the ATV and bike compaines started releasing cleaner 2-strokes they would be allowed after 06 I'd believe (this how the snowmobile industry is). Right now ski-doo has some of the cleanest running sleds on the market, and guess what, they are all 2-strokes.

[MO350X]

I spoke with my local Yamaha dealer and according to him and the 2006 Yamaha sport quad brochure, the Banshee will be no more after the 2006 model year.
The Blaster? I didn't ask and the brochure didn't specify.
I imagine it's on the way out, too.

The "ban" is not really a "ban", it's merely a phase out because the companies don't want to spend the money it takes to build a series of clean 2 stroke engines. The new 2 stroke engines they presently have are WORLDS cleaner than they used to be for sure and we have the oil technology to make a huge difference.
So now we're stuck with TINY, grossly over-complicated 4 stroke weed-eaters, trimmers, chain saws, etc.? Dumb.
Picture rebuilding one of those pricey little gems. Nope.
Sounds like a throw-away consumer item to me. :(

From what I've read, there is no ban for 2 strokes on public lands
If someone has links to a federal or state law stating that there IS a 2 stroke ban on public lands, please post it or PM it to me.
I'd love to read it.

[Speedster700HP]

I spoke with my local Yamaha dealer and according to him and the 2006 Yamaha sport quad brochure, the Banshee will be no more after the 2006 model year.
The Blaster? I didn't ask and the brochure didn't specify.
I imagine it's on the way out, too.


That's a shame. When I was a kid growing up in the '80s, there was no question where the excitement was (2-strokes) and I've heard Yamaha apparently even detuned the Banshee a bit over the years. Kids growing up today have no idea of the potency of a good 2-stroke, and may never. :( Oh well, I will continue to stay with 2-strokes and those that don't believe in the power can see me---up in front----for proof. :beer

[edog]

I got a great idea for all you guys to not pollut.Give me your machines that will help you alot... if your so worried.LOL :p

[ANTI-QUAD]

all i know is,outboard(evinrude and johnson)and sleds are putting out 2 strokes that pass epa standards,but at the same time ,four srtokes are becoming a real threat to the two stroke world. many four stroke machines place in the top three of a predominatly two stroke world. i'm a four stroke man myself'but i would like to allways have the option of a two stroke,,sure hope they clean up instead of phase out

[performula]

Plus the add fuel and go feature.

[firefirefire90]

Four strokes suck nuts....haha even though i have one. We are just going to have to live with this. I doubt a 600cc four sled could keep up with a 600cc Two sled. Come on! Oh well about the banshee..Its yamahas decision and no one can stop them. i want a two stroke sled some day...And put a fatty racing pipe that sticks out on it.

The blaster is just almost as fast as a 200x. Now if it was liquid cooled(blaster) i would be eating my words. Hopefully service honda keeps making their bikes/250R quad.

[400exXx]

maybe if these ******* were smart enough to figure out how to make it not pollute as much...noone of this would happen...there not even trying

[400exXx]

Now if it was liquid cooled i would be eating my words. .


are * saying the banshee isnt liquid cooled????
cuz it is (no idea what ** talking about!)

[OldSchoolin86]

are * saying the banshee isnt liquid cooled????
cuz it is (no idea what ** talking about!)
Re-read his post to find out who has no idea what they are talkin about.

Re-read the rules too if you would.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/MBRules.shtml

[monster 84r]

this topic outrages me.... im a devoted two stroker, because of how simple and powerfull they are, and it kills me to see this.

id be up for starting a web site and organization dedicated to keeping our two strokes alive.

if the govt. is so damn concerned about polution they should look at what gets dumped into our rivers. if they want to restrict 2 strokes, then they should limit the emissions oils cause. they could test 2 stroke oil and only the cleanest burning stuff could hit the shelves.

[250r'en +TCB]

Re-read his post to find out who has no idea what they are talkin about.

Re-read the rules too if you would.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/MBRules.shtml

OSin86 is TCB'en now! (Taking Care of Business) :lol:

Anyway it sucks to see Pingers go.....Truely a sad time for the motorsports world.....:cry: Well, I'll always own one, even if I have to machine them from scratch when I'm 80!!!
BTW I don't think they are gonna ban pingers from public and gov. land. It's just 2-strokes manufactored after 06. They can't ban machines made before the ban. They are grandfathered. Thats like if you had an old muscle car, they change the emmision standerds and what, you can't drive it anymore?:beer

[Russell 350X]

Does the same go for snowmobiles too?


Russ

[69HemiGTX]

OK, a lot of people out there always say "Why are they going after us? We're just a small segment of the population." Your answer lies right there. We are a small segment of the population. It's easier to pick on a small, disorganized foe than one that has the backing of thousands of lawyers and billions of dollars at their disposal. This is why the hippies (EPA) targets small focus groups. They know that we will never organize ourselves effectively enough to have a voice against them. I know, it's sad but true. How many of you would take a significant portion of your time and dedicate it to fighting a huge, multi-billion dollar organization that has brainwashed millions of people worldwide into believing everything they say? Not many, because most of us know that it would be a waste of time. It's time to face facts. We can't win against these people and this mentality. The OEMs are essentially forced to comply with their ridiculous regulations in the interest of not being tied up by drawn-out lawsuits that cost them millions and vilify them as "eco enemies" in the press. Of course, since the hippies are a national governement organization, they can sweet talk all of the politicians on their side (read: on their payroll) into persuading Congress to pass into law new, stricter regulations for new production vehicles. The end result is they have their way, and we, the consumers, are the ones who feel the effects both in the showrooms and in our wallets.

[86waterpumper]

I see first hand experience of what is happening and it makes me sick to think that a lot of what I see is due to human ignorance.


I see in your signature older fox that you are restoring a tri moto 125. Now correct me if I'm wrong but that bike is a two stroke, so why do you own it if it's ruining the world LOL. I agree with what others have said in the grand scheme of things, two stroke bikes don't put out enough emissions to hurt the environment a bit. Not to mention the fact that a good many of the four stroke bikes I see being ridden have no more rings in them, and change their own oil and pollute as bad or worse than a two stroke does lol. I appreciate the fact that four stroke technology has come a long way (I have ridden a couple of the newer bikes) and I know that all the pros racing mx and such have converted to them, but they aren't the be all end all. I for one think a race with two stroke bikes is way more exciting to watch, you never see a four stroke getting all squirrelly in a corner or throwing much of a roost, it just all looks like cars on a slotcar track riding around in a circle, looks nearly as mundane as nascar does, not to mention they don't even sound fast, they sound like a bunch of tractors plowing a field. If you notice none of the freestyle guys have gone to four strokes, now they may in the future, but the very fact that they haven't yet proves that two strokes are still faster in tight conditions, and they are still lighter even if not by much. Another factor that someone hit on briefly but is probably the biggest thing to consider, four strokes are FAR from being easy to fix when they break, the cost is staggering compared to a two stroke topend job. How many kids do you think this is going to knock out of getting started racing? Plenty of dads can probably redo their son's two stroke yz80 topend if it breaks, but how many do you think can afford to pay for a grenaded four stroke motor? It will become a rich man's sport, the same thing is happening currently in the bmx world. Everything must be light as a feather and made of carbon fiber etc, and a kid can't show up and race on a old huffy if he wants, the same is going to happen to mx racing, everything is getting too techical and alot of the fun aspect is being lost.

[firehart]

Here in Idaho I have the same problem. I can only use my two stroke jetski in certain lakes in a few years I probably won't be able to use it anywhere but in the oceans.

[deathman53]

what funny is, a few years ago a study about atv pollution stated that "one city bus puts out the emisions of 100 banshee's", that was a few years ago, I'd think that busses are alot cleaner now, I drive a 87 chevy diseal truck at work and this thing blows alot of black smoke, especailly when cold. I have to honesly say, it gets great gas mileage, loaded up with pipe, wire, tools, trailer with a ditchwitch , cabinets, etc and it gets 20-30 mpg, depending on how heavy my foot is.

[peeweesp]

Well 2 strokes arent going to die out, most newer 2 strokes apparently will become fuel injected along with 4 strokes, that apparenlty makes a pretty big diffrence but, i just cant see 2 strokes dying off.

[Garage Boy 34]

Here in Idaho I have the same problem. I can only use my two stroke jetski in certain lakes in a few years I probably won't be able to use it anywhere but in the oceans.
I heard starting this year or next they are nolonger aloud to sell 2 stroke jet skis, and I believe Polaris is getting of jet skis and will only be selling last years models this year. And the same goes for all boats. Kawasaki manufactured a KX 125 this year but its not coming to the states. I also believe that 2-strokes can burn cleaner than a four stroke but its the money versus technology....I think it was in 1968 artic cat built the first 3 (2 are only left currently) pre-production 4 stroke (I think even fuel injected) snowmobiles but never went in to production do to the technology to make them at a profit was not there. funny thing back in 1998 my buddy bought a CR 125 and payed $5200..out the door and now I see 2006 CR 125 for $3799.+ taxes...unfortunately 2 strokes are getting phazed out as the old 2 stroke street bikes............

[peeweesp]

yeah i even read somehwere that the AMA may allow 2 stroke bikes to run a bigger bore, like instead of 125 it was something like 140 because there are far more 4 strokes, but as for 2 strokes being phazed out, i dont think they will stop making them, i know alot of European companies makes 2 stroke offroad bikes that meat cali emission regulations and are green sticker and apparently pass epa standards.

[250r'en +TCB]

what funny is, a few years ago a study about atv pollution stated that "one city bus puts out the emisions of 100 banshee's".

:lol: :lol: :lol: What did they make the ratio on that banshee, 1:1!!!!! lol
That is utter crap, a (guessing on the displacement) 9 liter diesel bus puts out the same as 100cc 2 stroke!?!?!?!?! think about that for a second!!!!
2-strokes can be made a lot cleaner with fuel injection and the new sunthetic oils, which also allow you to put less oil in the machine! The fast is that you just can't compare a 2 and 4 stroke with the same stuff like liqued cooling and such. The fact that a 250cc pinger is equal to a 450cc banger is amazing! You want a fair race? You go get your 450cc YFZ or TRX and I'll go find a 450cc l/c pinger quad and we'll race!!:lol:

[peeweesp]

well in the AMA Motorcross series they are thinking about letting the 2 strokes bore out there bikes for a bit of extra power, there would be a limit of course but, the new 450 race bikes, are pushing crazy HP for a 450, a guy on another site i got to alot (supermotojunkie.com) claims 65+ out of his crf450 i mean it is worked, probobly has tons of money into it.

[Old 179]

What about all the trees( large sections of woods and forest) that developers are allowed to destroy for their developements.(If state highway destroy's them they have to plant replacements elsewhere!) They help purify or air. MaKe them %@~*^&%$^ developers do the same.Think of all of the good riding places that we lost and has been turned into concrete or grass.
How about doing away with drive-thru services (food ect) That would help alot. How about all all smoke and grease belching out of McD's and other food joints.
Ever notice the smog around power plants. How many 2 strokes engines would it take to equal one off those stacks?????
It's ashame for us little people. we always get f!#@$. 2 strokes have came a long way since the 70's. This crap got started on the left (west) coast. Ashame this did not get "nipped in the bud" then.

Disclaimer: I'm not a true tree hugger. I do like to keep our large trees for future generations. Also I don't have a problem with the west coast. It has produce some of the best riders and equipment that has taken our sport to the level it is at.

P.S. I just like the smell of my Maxima 927 burning! Goverment, just leave me alone!

[NOS_350X]

well in the AMA Motorcross series they are thinking about letting the 2 strokes bore out there bikes for a bit of extra power, there would be a limit of course but, the new 450 race bikes, are pushing crazy HP for a 450, a guy on another site i got to alot (supermotojunkie.com) claims 65+ out of his crf450 i mean it is worked, probobly has tons of money into it.

65 horse isnt much for the CRF engine, That motor stock puts out over 50. Honda and Yamaha have always majorly detuend the atv's. Look at the atc and trx 250r's the Cr's of the same year hav 14+ More horespower stock.

The problem with the ama letting the pingers raise the size of the motor is right now they actualy get a peak horepower advantage. But because the way the thumpers put it to the ground the 2 strokes cant hang.

[EvilMooseofDoom]

What about all the trees( large sections of woods and forest) that developers are allowed to destroy for their developements.(If state highway destroy's them they have to plant replacements elsewhere!) They help purify or air. MaKe them %@~*^&%$^ developers do the same.Think of all of the good riding places that we lost and has been turned into concrete or grass.
How about doing away with drive-thru services (food ect) That would help alot. How about all all smoke and grease belching out of McD's and other food joints.
Ever notice the smog around power plants. How many 2 strokes engines would it take to equal one off those stacks?????
It's ashame for us little people. we always get f!#@$. 2 strokes have came a long way since the 70's. This crap got started on the left (west) coast. Ashame this did not get "nipped in the bud" then.

Disclaimer: I'm not a true tree hugger. I do like to keep our large trees for future generations. Also I don't have a problem with the west coast. It has produce some of the best riders and equipment that has taken our sport to the level it is at.

P.S. I just like the smell of my Maxima 927 burning! Goverment, just leave me alone!


Living on that same left coast, you do have a valid point concerning the origin of this problem, but it is incomplete. These people migrated west in the 1960's....from the east coast. My wife works in the medical field, where lesbian/liberal freak women dominate the industry. Just in case you are wondering what I am talking about, the medical field has transformed from a service industry, into a sort of goverment-sponsored socialist philosophy school. I have to talk with these people, my wife has to talk with these people, and my wife's work experience is not just with a single hospital. These people are nuts. Mentally deranged. And you have two levels of them. You have leadership, who doesn't give a damn(these are almost all east-coast transplants) about the base causes of the liberal freak of today, and then you have the rank and file, who swallow everything that leadership tells them, basically Lenin's "Useful Idiots". None of these people ever use logic in any of their thinking processes. How does this tie in to two stroke bikes? Here in Portland, Oregon, the state itself determined, in THREE SEPARATE REPORTS, that we no longer need automobile smog testing in the state. Will testing cease? No, because it doesn't fit in with liberal dogma. When I went to college, I had to do an environmental paper for a 200-level biology class, I decided to do it over global warming. What I discovered, is that Portland's so-called "smog-problem" was caused almost entirely by industry, cars at their very worst were 13%...this is the state's own numbers. AAA had the numbers at 11%. There is a problem here, if all of this attention is being placed on offroad vehicles being absolute gross polluters, when they make up how much of the "vehicle" population?
I see three naughty people here:
1. The Sierra Club/every other idiot environmental group out there: The leadership of these groups is more about furthering their own socialist political agendas...and making money. The intelligent leadership parrots garbage science about how even farting loudly in the woods endangers the environment, this is a mask for socialist plans of limiting freedoms, while they make a buck in the process. The useful idiots, the rank and file members of these groups who funnel in millions of dollars, being taught to hate capitalism and to embrace junk science in public schools, simply repeat everything the leadership says. Conspiracy? Nah, any of you who have kids in public schools should know exactly what I am talking about. These people may have helped clean up America in the past, but it is only about the money for the leadership now. Example? The sierra club does not want a single redwood tree cut down, yet the leader's entire house is made from Redwood...

2. Idiot politicians: We really need to give pay raises of at least a million dollars a year to each US congressman, Senator, and the president. Why? Nobody with less than half a brain is going to run for these offices, unless they are stupid, or are going in to try to screw us over at our expense. The best and brightest go where the money is...the private sector. Until we fix this problem, we are going to continue to get scumbags in office who strip our freedoms away for personal favors.

3. The ATV companies themselves. There is only one reason why Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, blah blah ad nauseum all the rest of them are focusing on four strokes.
Money.
It was mentioned that ANYONE could rebuild a two stroke...the person who said that didn't go far enough to grasp the weight of his statement. ANYONE can work on two strokes...THAT is the problem. How are those companies going to make money in their service departments ( a large part of their profit generation), if they are not needed en masse'? In addition, so far as the power benefits of 4-strokes...the extra engine displacement is why they seem to have more torque down low, and the peaky nature of smaller two strokes, plus the type of tuning they receive, where you only have top end pull is why the 450's do well almost everywhere else except the straights. They have no business racing on the same track. If you would allow 450 CC Two strokes out there, it would be a slaughter for ANY four stroke of the same size. Why not allow KX/CR500's out there? There is also the tech factor: you can't really improve the two stroke engine beyond what has already been done..the latest two stroke MX'ers are phenominal, and as clean-running as possible. The only way to clean them up any further is the fuel side, to eliminate the sulphur out the fuel, and to use synthetic oils. But they can't make money on selling "old" technology (lol, yeah by maybe a year). The four stroke emergence is simply a marketing gimmick...anyone with a brain can see that spinning a camshaft(s), opening valves against valvesprings, the chain, it all adds rotational friction that robs power. In addition, where as a 4-stroke might fire 5000 times a minute at a certain RPM, the two stroke fires at 10,000 times a minute...more power there. The super-lightweight materials (oh, and super costly) get a 4-stroke close to a two stroke...but they can never catch up. The Two stroke is the superior engine. This gimmick is proving profitable, however...look at how many people spend thousands of dollars on parts that would not even be needed for a two stroke, to make their 4-stroke just keep up with an old banshee...a bigger cylinder jug on a two stroke, and you are done. You have to spend darn near a grand for a similar kit on a 4-stroker...
The factories have their new gimmick, and how better to sell it? By not raising a finger to combat any of the stupidity the government shoves out...simply raise their hands up, and say "sorry, nothing we can do about it...government says we have to quit building the two strokes...."...and charge a premium price for that new technology..which is to spend and try to make a fortune selling vehicles that run almost exactly the same as the two stroke bikes they are replacing...

Sorry if this was butchered, i was in a hurry.


Watching the Alito confirmation hearings, Ted Kennedy pretty much verified that he is only parroting some socialist group's crap, as another senator told him to finish his sentence; how should she know that his sentence wasn't finished, unless they had rehearsed this beforehand?

[Old 179]

hey west coaster!
We need you in Washington D.C.
You hit it right, on #3. Back in the 80's AMA let debore 200cc (from 250 2 strokes) run againts 200x for a while destroying that class, they finally got their own class alittle later on.
Here, a few years ago, AMA allows a 450 4stroke run in the 250 2 stroke class, and 250 in the 125 class. Why didn't they follow what they did in the 80's and had 250s againts 250 and 125 againts 125??????? Because 4 stroke would not hang with the 2 strokes with out a unfair advatage. It still took several seasons to get them where they could beat the 2 stroke !!!!!!
USA has really went to hell these last 25-30 years. I wish we had every last one of our WWII soldiers living as if it was 1946, after the war, they would not put up with this crap!!!! Those pin heads would not go againts what our vets fought for.
The goverment would be for the people and not butt buddies with big buisness.
Our man Mitch (republican govenor) is leasing our highways to foreign buisnesses ( the toll roads). saves money!! Our Manufacture has been sold out, now its our roads. what the hell will be sold off next?????

[TimSr]

:lol: :lol: :lol: What did they make the ratio on that banshee, 1:1!!!!! lol
That is utter crap, a (guessing on the displacement) 9 liter diesel bus puts out the same as 100cc 2 stroke!?!?!?!?! think about that for a second!!!!



Ummm, they mean 100 Banshees, not a Banshee 100.

[250r'en +TCB]

Ummm, they mean 100 Banshees, not a Banshee 100.
oh now I get it!:lol: Anyway obviosly 100 banshee's are gonna put out more than a city bus!
I DEFINATLY agree how retarded it is that developers and the state can come in and swipe away thousands of tree's in on stroke yet they have no trouble doing it! such crap!!!!!!!