Is it worth working a 200X?

[chris200x]

I've seen over the months alot of people are putting bigger pistons, cams, porting & polishing and all the expensive motor work into their 200x's.

I've also seen alot of the same people having problems soon afterwards. It seems to me that the motor then becomes alot less reliable. So I guess my question is... Is it really worth all that trouble? And money? How much more speed can you possibly get out of a little 200cc engine? Don't just doing minor mods like a performance exhuast, filter, and gearing do almost the same thing? Let's hear your thoughts!

[bigredhead]

My thoughts...

Make it reliable.

the end.

--

actually.. i'd go with a proper rebuild.. have everything mic'ed.. fresh timing chain with tensioner.. valves.. a good proper rebuild with stock compression, fresh gaskets. etc... is the way to go.

Those who opt for a 12:1 seem to have nothing but problems.. either because they are not going about it the proper way. or these engines simply canot handle the load.

What ever the case.. i personally think stock rocks.

[Maine_Triker]

Going with bigredhead on this one, keep the motor itself stock, but get performance pipes, filters, etc....

[vartiak15]

you can build them and notice the power. you will also notice the heat and what not too. i would have never camed mine if i didnt have that oil cooler. does it help does who knows. but it can take the piston and what not as long as it is done right and you run the right gas.

[ATCWRENCH]

you can build any engine and make it reliable or unreliable. you can take a new 450 whatever and slap a new pipe, cam, air filter on and NOT re-jet the carb and make it unreliable. of coarse you can do all that and re-jet the carb and make it a reliable monster. it really, really becomes important to measure everything for tolerances when you are building or rebuild a 20 year old engine cuz garunteed there is gonna be something outta spec. I'm having my 200x engine profesionally rebuilt right now and I have to have the valve cover and the head mating surfaces milled so the surfaces are flat again.


then I have to have the cam journals re-bored so they are round again. My case halves have to be milled as well cuz they are warped just the tiniest of amounts but it's enough to throw everything out of whack if it was put togethor that way.

What i am trying to say is a high perfomance engine can be very reliable as long as it is built correctly. don't put a 12:1 piston on a 20 year old bottom end cuz it won't hold up to that much firing pressure. if you build a race engine get everything measured and get everything back into tolerences.

A full bore race engine will always be kinda finiky with tuning but thats the nature of the beast. build a stock engine and you break it in and set the jetting once and more than likely never have to touch the jetting ever again if you dont really leave your riding area.

[hotroddal]

whenever i rebuild engines i do it all stock, with nuthing highperformance in the engines at all, the only performance stuff that i do to my engines is a pipe, aircleaner, and rejet, oops i forgot to mention i advance the timing just a pubical hair ahead.

[vartiak15]

what does advancing the timing do?

[Dammit!]

The reason they become unreliable is because many people don't see those types of things through and do it right. Like a performance cam without stiffer valve springs. Or a super high compression piston with some piece of crap generic head gasket and 87 octane fuel. Or "rebuilding" the engine by just putting in a new piston without even checking anything else or adjusting the valves and re-jetting.

The 200x I had in the 80's, I put a supertrapp racing exhaust, K&N filter, megacycle racing cam, stiffer valve springs, next higher compression over stock piston (don't remember anymore), heavier clutch springs, etc. That thing ran like a raped ape for a 200cc machine, didn't require higher than 93 octane and was way more reliable than when it was stock and had "pros" working on it. Do your mods right and realisticly and it shouldn't cause the machine to be a timebomb.

[chris200x]

I think I may have asked this question before somewhere along the line but I had my motor rebuilt recently. I have since added a dg chrome exhaust and a uni air filter. I'm in the process of rebuilding my carb and was wondering if it needed to be rejetted (since it's already in 100 peices)

I would also like to know about that advancing the timing thing?

[Dammit!]

A lot of people don't seem to understand exactly what jetting does. It's simple if you really break it down and think about it.

Your bike needs fuel and air to run. Lets say the perfect mix of fuel and air is 50/50 just for example. Adding a pipe and filter allows air to flow more freely through the motor but the fuel is still limited by the size of the jets and the needle clip position. So now you're at like 40% fuel, 60% air. So in order to bring that back up to 50/50 you have to increase the size of the jets and move the clip accordingly.

[chris200x]

A lot of people don't seem to understand exactly what jetting does. It's simple if you really break it down and think about it.

Your bike needs fuel and air to run. Lets say the perfect mix of fuel and air is 50/50 just for example. Adding a pipe and filter allows air to flow more freely through the motor but the fuel is still limited by the size of the jets and the needle clip position. So now you're at like 40% fuel, 60% air. So in order to bring that back up to 50/50 you have to increase the size of the jets and move the clip accordingly.


Very well put. I can even understand that lol.

[hotroddal]

the advancing the timing makes it fire quicker, also its a hell of alot more torquey.

[catfish]

Amen Atcwrench!

[chris200x]

Hey catfish... are you the guy here on the boards that used to race the 200x back in the day?

[catfish]

yessir I am.

[chris200x]

Would you be kind enough to go into some detail about what kind of motor work you had done, race setups and such. Ever had problems? Anything like that. ;)

[catfish]

I sent you a PM Chris.

[vartiak15]

how do you advance the timing? i would like to do this.

[250r'en +TCB]

Honda engineers build there products to last, if you were to go ahead and bore it, performance pisto and rods, you are basicly telling all theose engineers to go shove it. But when you do that, the engineers get to come back in a short time when your engine blows and say "Told you so B****!!!!!".....................funny but true

[jenndnn3]

:D Catfish, may I have that pm as well?

WTH is up with all this engine blowing stuff. The 3 I tore apart were pure lazy I dont want to maintian my trike. Fork oil that smell like, hell i cant even begin to describe the smell. I read through these forums, hey I have the best running such and such, runs like a raped whatever, oh she smokes, but hey its strong so who cares. Quit cutting wires, because you lose spark. You want a good runner, change that 20 year old chain and sprockets. Dont believe me ride it with the 20 year stuff then ride it after. Change those bearings. Clean your airfilter, clean your jets, make sure your oil is change and running through the engine. I am more apt to whoop on you if you dont have a good maintianed trike.

This is extremely well said :beer
you can build any engine and make it reliable or unreliable. you can take a new 450 whatever and slap a new pipe, cam, air filter on and NOT re-jet the carb and make it unreliable. of coarse you can do all that and re-jet the carb and make it a reliable monster. it really, really becomes important to measure everything for tolerances when you are building or rebuild a 20 year old engine cuz garunteed there is gonna be something outta spec. I'm having my 200x engine profesionally rebuilt right now and I have to have the valve cover and the head mating surfaces milled so the surfaces are flat again.


then I have to have the cam journals re-bored so they are round again. My case halves have to be milled as well cuz they are warped just the tiniest of amounts but it's enough to throw everything out of whack if it was put togethor that way.

What i am trying to say is a high perfomance engine can be very reliable as long as it is built correctly. don't put a 12:1 piston on a 20 year old bottom end cuz it won't hold up to that much firing pressure. if you build a race engine get everything measured and get everything back into tolerences.

A full bore race engine will always be kinda finiky with tuning but thats the nature of the beast. build a stock engine and you break it in and set the jetting once and more than likely never have to touch the jetting ever again if you dont really leave your riding area..

[TimSr]

There was a time when people built up a certain model in order to comply with class restrictions for competition. Ill never understand why somebody would spend $2000 on a 200X trying to make it run like a 350X when they could simply get a 350X, unless you are racing in a 250cc 4 stroke class or something that doesnt allow a 350X.

In my opinion, why waste all that money trying to trun something into something its not, when you can buy an upgraded model for less money, and you arent destroying a classsic original?

People always talk about how fast modified Blasters can get, and they are right, but a highly modified Blaster has only one purpose, and that is to race in a Blaster class. Highly modified Blasters do have serious reliability issues when compared to the nearly bullet proof stock Blasters. Anything that works a motor harder will make it wear faster, and some motors just werent meant to handle the kind of pressures put on them by soem builders. Many racers are rebuilding motors every couple of months. Some highly modified Blasters were faster than my stock TRX250R, (though they had inferior suspension systems). The major difference was when I got done racing, I could go ride miles and miles of trails, or go run cross country harescrambles with no worries. You dont see stroked and big bore Blasters doing the same. You build a Blaster to race a Blaster class. If you build it to be a 250R for typical use, youll be disappointed, and have tons of money invested in something you cant rely on.

If you want to dump a lot of money into a 200X so you can run it in a 250cc class at Trikefest, and have a mechanical advantage, go for it, but if you are just looking for better performance, save your money and buy a better performing model machine for a fraction of the cost.

[jakey]

Well said Tim Sr...

i've thought of building my 200x so it would run with bigger bikes but i figured by doing that i could have just of easily sold my bike and bought another one that would run better with more reliability.

I am happy with my bike for what i use it for...trail riding and some mild motocross

If you dont like your bike just simply sell it and buy a new one

[greenhuman]

The problems people have with reliability is they stay with the stock stroke and have to rev the freckle out of them to get them to go. A 64mm short rod stroker from Powroll which will come with new rod, pin, bearings and timing sprocket and is balanced combined with a 65.5 or 66mm 10.5-1 compression Wiseco piston, 28mm carb off a CR80 or early 250R, a Dg full system and a mild drop in cam will be super reliable, go like a b*stard and give 250R's and a lot of other things the fright of their lives. You do not have to rev it hard but if you do everything will hold together just fine.

[OldSchoolin86]

The problems people have with reliability is they stay with the stock stroke and have to rev the freckle out of them to get them to go.
Wow, wouldn't have guessed a short stroke to be the problem, all the new hot motors have shorter stroke to bore ratios then the 200x did.

[jakey]

greenhuman i think the main problem people have is that they do not want to go "all out" on building a bike...instead they drop in that high comp piston and think that's going to be exactly what they needed to beat that 250r in a drag...but realistically to build a 12.1 motor reliably it would cost you 500-700 dollars

[catfish]

You also need to look at the stroke to rod length ratio. A shorter rod puts more piston loading on the thrust side of the cylinder wall. In other words, the angle of the rod tends to shove the piston into the cylinder wall on the thrust side. If my memory serves me correct, Powroll years ago went with a shorter rod and a big bore ( still keeping under the 199cc limit) and they just wouldn't hold together. They revved to the moon and would absolutely fly, but they just couldn't handle the big flat tracks. Now they offer the same stroker as Sparks and TC done. Same rod, but with the crank pin moved up on the crank, much more reliable. For me, building an X motor all out is just re-living the old days. I agree, if you want to have something fast and reliable, just save up and buy one of the new generation 4-strokes. They are a totally different engine than the ones years ago. The old ones can still be built right and reliable though, you just have to make sure everything is up to code. And I'm not trying to back out or anything Oldschoolin, I'll still meet you at TF next year.........;)

[OldSchoolin86]

And I'm not trying to back out or anything Oldschoolin, I'll still meet you at TF next year.........;)
LMAO, AWESOME! Nothing better then some good ol' ball busting. :p

[200xadam]

i think that if your going to make a little machine into something bigger you should know what your getting into. my 200x isnt even running yet, and i have a good 300 dollars in the motor work alone..and going into this i knew i was creating a monster that wasnt going to be as reliable as stock...and i would never get my money back from this. but im creating something that is going to do exactly what i want it to do. i want it to be the fastest 200 4 stroke that people see... i want it to shock other riders when my little ole trike pulls up next to them and actualy gives them a run.

its all about a thrill to me. and when im rideing next to a bigger bike and watching them slowly fall behind me...it suddenly all seems worth it....

[vartiak15]

"its all about a thrill to me. and when im rideing next to a bigger bike and watching them slowly fall behind me...it suddenly all seems worth it...."
__________________


couldnt of said it better

[Huffa]

I'm sure it is quite satisfying to have a "little" machine out run a bigger one but that's the motor doing it and not you. Really, anyone can twist a throttle and motor away and I have never been impressed with that aspect at all of seeing who can go the fastest or who outruns who (just not mt bag).

What impresses me is the skilll of the rider negotiating the different obsticals that you encounter on the terrian you are riding on.

You can hop your machine up 10, 20% or so but if you don't know how to traverse the terrian it won't do you a heck of a lot of good.

One easy hop up (and I'm not pertaining to anyone in particular) is if your over weight and can drop some pounds that ='s to the same thing as hopping up your motor and it's free!

Another way to lose weight on machine (if your not going far) is always just run a 1/2 tank of gas. Why carry around 6-7 lbs at darn close to the higest point on trike, when you don't have to. Not only is it lighter but lighter at the most important section of machine which lowers the center of gravity a bit.

[Dammit!]

One easy hop up (and I'm not pertaining to anyone in particular) is if your over weight and can drop some pounds that ='s to the same thing as hopping up your motor and it's free!


That's what I did. Lost 50 pounds last year (205 down to 155) and yes I can tell the difference!

[200xadam]

I'm sure it is quite satisfying to have a "little" machine out run a bigger one but that's the motor doing it and not you. Really, anyone can twist a throttle and motor away and I have never been impressed with that aspect at all of seeing who can go the fastest or who outruns who (just not mt bag).

What impresses me is the skilll of the rider negotiating the different obsticals that you encounter on the terrian you are riding on.

You can hop your machine up 10, 20% or so but if you don't know how to traverse the terrian it won't do you a heck of a lot of good



thats true, to see someone out ride someone else is very impressive to watch.

but the feeling you get when YOU beat a bigger machine, with something that YOU built yourself. knowing that something constructed by YOU is so much better than a stock machine constructed by honda,yamaha,suzuki. ex.. thats what makes me build up a little machine...

[Huffa]

thats true, to see someone out ride someone else is very impressive to watch.

but the feeling you get when YOU beat a bigger machine, with something that YOU built yourself. knowing that something constructed by YOU is so much better than a stock machine constructed by honda,yamaha,suzuki. ex.. thats what makes me build up a little machine...

Yes, true too. BUTTTTT....... it can work the other way too though :D Someone could beat (trail riding) you on a rat of a machine and then you wouldn't be so quick to tell him yours is all hopped up.

I congradulate you on building up your motor though and keeping it reliable. I don't knock anyone what ever there into, just thougt I'd give a few of my 2 cents worth.

[Huffa]

That's what I did. Lost 50 pounds last year (205 down to 155) and yes I can tell the difference!

I'll bet you gained a good 3-5 horsepower doing that, automaticly got a stiffer suspension for free, get better gas milage, can move around much better and don't get winded near as easy, your seat foam will last longer and have a much smaller food bill. :D

Only negative is you don't get as much traction now :D

Thats a hard thing to do for some and cograts :beer to you! What was your method for weight loss? Less......... :beer

[chris200x]

One easy hop up (and I'm not pertaining to anyone in particular) is if your over weight and can drop some pounds that ='s to the same thing as hopping up your motor and it's free!

Not pertaining to anyone in particular huh?!?! Some how I find that statement hard to believe. ;) Maybe I'd be better off with a nice 85' 250 sx then HUH? :D

I too am not into the whole my machine is faster thans yours kind of thing. I guess I'm just getting old for that sort of stuff. But I just don't see the purpose of sinking all that time and money into something that isn't going to last. I feel and some I'm sure with disagree that two strokes are pretty much the same way. :naughty: A stock HONDA 4 stroke in my opinion is the most reliable engine ever made...Why ruin a good thing! :D

[vartiak15]

if you build it right it will still be reliable.

[sideshow_bob]

My good friend races quater midgets powered by the xr200,His motor is fully worked (well pretty much).
The motor often needs to be rebuilt often,And sometimes they can go through 3 engines in a race day(meaning they need to put thier spare engines into the car),So it shows thatthe motors not really reliable.
His motor puts out 29 horsepower on the dyno(max he can go is 30 becase of the rules).I had a go on it,That things got some serious power :D

[Huffa]

[QUOTE=chrisr200x]Not pertaining to anyone in particular huh?!?! Some how I find that statement hard to believe. ;)

:D LOL :D :D :D I just knew you would reply to that statement!

[Dammit!]

Thats a hard thing to do for some and cograts :beer to you! What was your method for weight loss? Less......... :beer

I'm lucky. It was actually pretty easy for me. I bought a treadmill, started hitting that for only about 20 minutes a day maybe 3-5 times per week. Started doing stomach crunches and some mild weight lifting. The thing that gets most people is that I lost the weight eating fast food exclusively. I can't cook. Everything I eat comes in a paper bag and you order it by number. :D

Seriously though, I just went online and started looking up the nutritional info on all the foods I commonly ate and looked for less fattening alternatives at the same places. Changing simple habits like getting a grilled chicken sandwich instead of a burger (roughly 400 calories versus 700), stop eating those damn french fries (my god those things are terrible for you... BUT THEY'RE SO GOOD TOO!), things like that. I order just some variety of grilled chicken sandwich at most places, don't get the combo and drink a can of diet soda with it. Subway has some good stuff too. Never been a massive beer drinker so that was never an issue. I lost 30 of the 50 pounds in the first two months. Turns out what I was doing was basically the "abs diet". There's a book about it but I didn't even know it. :Bounce

Could still stand to lose another 8 or so pounds I think. That would probably get me another .08 horsepower. :D

[chris200x]

Geez, Dammmit good job! Unfortunatly I will sacrifice the couple of horsepower cause I just love that lager.

Huffa just for the record... I have lost some weight (about 15 or so lbs) since I started working right after easter.

How did this turn into a diet thread anyway!

[jenndnn3]

There was a time when people built up a certain model in order to comply with class restrictions for competition. Ill never understand why somebody would spend $2000 on a 200X trying to make it run like a 350X when they could simply get a 350X, unless you are racing in a 250cc 4 stroke class or something that doesnt allow a 350X.

.

In all honesty, I dont understand it myself. But Adam had pegged it in a post. It is something you built, something you can be proud of. I really dont care if it truley is faster/quicker then the 350 or 400. But Dam when you beat it the feeling is wild. Then there is just the thing with sitting down, with your mind on nothing but why this doesnt work, it is a very relaxing time. But taking it out and putting it back in just gets, well boring, so you have to push the envelope a little. Like what if I added this, but balanced it with that, what will this machine produce. One guy (one of the smartest people when it comes to these) told me once I over analyze things. But What if it worked???? That is the true nature. To make it work. Then there is the riding aspect of it, like Huffa mentioned. I am truley a weak rider in comparison. My nature lies in the buildup, the riding is left to others. But, he is correct, if you can outride the other person that is quite a feeling itself, but not as strong as building it. I did buy the R, since the 350x is just a beast. I love my R, I am learning its nature, but even now I find I cant even leave that one alone. So rather then touch it, I play in something that wont kill me in costs, it is fun, and the kids will enjoy it. And when and if she does blow, oh well, find out why and concentrate on that.

Why the 200x, well if you read it gets dumped on. How many posts do you read that I wanna build my R or 350, and all the many many many advice comes out, but someone comes out and asks how about the baby x, and they are told get an R or 350..

It has a couple of compliants, it only has 5 speed, it breaks its kicker, it is unreliable. So I ask my self what if it is fixable? I think it is. So I go about to accomplish that. Hobby takes over.

Plus there is the cost, but that was my other goal, how cheap can I do this? This right here is a big kick for me. I am currently stocking up for my next one.

Mine was not to compete really just to have fun with it. My hubby wants to put it into flattracking, we shall see. But right now, I am still building it. It is like owning an old 69 muscle car.

So the worth? well is it worth it to sand down your plastics to perfection only to have them scratched again? YES why? Because it is something you accomplished and you have that picture or memory of the perfection you acomplished.

Well enough of the touchy girly BS...

[jenndnn3]

Oh yeah, dammit congrats!!

[Oldshell4481]

What impresses me is the skilll of the rider negotiating the different obsticals that you encounter on the terrian you are riding on.

You can hop your machine up 10, 20% or so but if you don't know how to traverse the terrian it won't do you a heck of a lot of good.

Damn straight i had the slowest machine around but i mastered the trails, my friends on their sport machines couldnt get through the terrain half as well or fast as me..