200X: Hard starting

[Glenn J]

My 1985 200X is tough to start. I've rebuilt the carb and adjusted valves a few times. Neither of those really helped. I swapped over a spare coil and CDI I had...no dice. Last night, I check the resistance on the exciter coil and the pulse generator. Both read fine....so good infact, it was like I was touching the two leads of the multimeter togehter. I checked the resistance on both coils I have and they checked out fine. The sparkplug is gapped correctly.

I really don't know what to do now. Any ideas? :wondering

[chris200x]

http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=37626&highlight=200x+spark

There are many threads about this particular subject on the boards. Do a search... If you don't find what your looking for just ask! :D

[Glenn J]

Thanks. I've done a few searches and tried just about everything. I'm not sure what to test/adjust next.

[chris200x]

Well if it makes you feel any better I'm in the same boat as you! :rolleyes:

[Glenn J]

Well if it makes you feel any better I'm in the same boat as you! :rolleyes:

LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one. :beer

[TeamGeek6]

Fouled plug, too lean on idle or bad wiring in the ignition system (the most likely). I had this exact problem (had to kick my leg off) until I found a loose terminal on the CDI plug. Since I fixed the wiring it starts in 1/2 kick on a good day.

[Glenn J]

How about too rich when idling? This thing idles really low when it does start and does not like to be given any gas for about a minute or so. Once it's up to op temp, it idles a bit high.

[bigredhead]

Glenn.. that sounds to me like normal operation.

[Glenn J]

Well, at least that kinda helps scratch the carb of the list of problems. :lol:

[freewheel3]

I'm not familiar with 200x's but I have had similar symptoms with some of my other Hondas. Usually I tracked the problem down to an air leak on the intake system. Either on the intake into the head or believe it or not on a couple of them it was the rubber boots that seal arond the top of the carb where your throttle cable and / or choke cable go in. Mine would idle too slow when cold & too fast when warm. Just an idea.

[Glenn J]

That's good to know. I'm going to check the intake system with some propane and see if there are any leaks.

[TeamGeek6]

That wont work unless the AF mixture is a tad lean, if its already too rich, propane is just more fuel on top of fuel.

[freewheel3]

That wont work unless the AF mixture is a tad lean, if its already too rich, propane is just more fuel on top of fuel.
Yeah but any noticeable difference in the idle while doing this would indicate a leak in the intake system. Ether works better than propane, BTW.

[Troll 2]

My 1985 200X is tough to start. I've rebuilt the carb and adjusted valves a few times. Neither of those really helped. I swapped over a spare coil and CDI I had...no dice. Last night, I check the resistance on the exciter coil and the pulse generator. Both read fine....so good infact, it was like I was touching the two leads of the multimeter togehter. I checked the resistance on both coils I have and they checked out fine. The sparkplug is gapped correctly.

I really don't know what to do now. Any ideas? :wondering


Glenn, did your carb kit come with a new slow jet and idle screw? I know alot of kits do, but I've seen so many partially plugged slow jets to trust them.
http://www.keihin-us.com/img/calchart.gif

I see that honda did a service bulletin for hard starting cold on a atc250es that called for a different slow jet. http://www.3wheeler.org/tech/06161-HA0-305_INSTRUCT1_50.jpg and vent hoses http://www.3wheeler.org/tech/06161-HA0-305_INSTRUCT2_50.jpg

I had two 200x's at one time. One had the same problem, boy I ended up just hating that X, because it would'nt fire. I hope you get your fixed. Good luck.
Hey, maybe swap on another carb to test? ................. :)

[Glenn J]

Awesome Troll! I should try the slow jet. I don't think I replaced that...I wasn't sure of the propper way to remove it. I'll give that a shot. And I have a spare carb that I can try as well.

[Troll 2]

The slow jet slowly plugs up, then its hard as a rock. Good luck and let us know............. :D

[chris200x]

Someone wanna try and explain that propane thing to me. :rolleyes:

[darrel632]

propane is hotter and dryer than gas will make your motor rev if it sucks a bunch of propane through an intake leak ;works as a power boost on a 4 stroke if you can control your shot, knda like a poormans NOS kit if its done right really bad for rings if you do it wrong, detonates real hard!

[TeamGeek6]

Propane is a gasseous fuel that is already vaporized (unlike gasoline that must have engine heat to vaporize and burn) and easy to burn. Any fuel (solvents, propane, ether, natural gas) can be used as a leak detector.

[83185s]

so how do * do that propane deal...just turn on the propane tank but dont ignite it and go over your intake system?? and if it revs higher or lower then you know its an air leak?

[Glenn J]

Basically, that'll do it. But be careful and don't unload a lot at one time. Do it in short bursts and wait for the air to clear between test. It's also best do this outside.

[Glenn J]

Does anyone's machine backfire out of the carb and stall if you try to rev it after starting it? I'm pretty sure it's a carb backfire because I here a sligh "pop", then the the engines dies.

[Troll 2]

That sounds like a lean symptom. Shes needing some fuel................. :naughty:

[Jason Hall]

I sold my buddy a 86 200x that did the same thing. It would pop out the carb then stall, it would idle great & as soon as you try to throttle into it, it would pop out the carb & stall ( If it pops out the carb, that is almost always a sign of a lean condition). I bet you have an air leak at your intake boot. Does it look dry rotted? I fixed his with some really good silicone (its called rite stuff Made by permatex). I don't know if the boot is still available through honda. I do know they are discontinueing alot of parts for the old girls. If you try either or propane try spraying it when is usually pops, like when you just hit the throttle or with the idle raised just slightly.

[Frankencelery]

This is the problem I'm having too. I didn't see this thread, or I would have joined it! Right now I'm working on getting the carb adjusted correctly, but the issue is exactly the same as yours. It requires quite a bit of kicking to start, and it idles slow at first. If you try to give it any gas, it quits. When its warmed up, it idles very high, but at least it runs fine.

[Glenn J]

Troll and Jason,
Thanks guys! That gives me a starting point. I'm going to do the propane and closely inspect the intake boot. If everything checks out OK there, I'll try the pilot. I'm pretty sure my pilot is out the correct number of turns though....Hmmm.


Frankencelery,
Keep us posted! I would love to get mine to start easily.

[Troll 2]

Troll and Jason,
I'll try the pilot. I'm pretty sure my pilot is out the correct number of turns though....Hmmm.



The pilot is the slow jet that gets plugged inside the carb ( little one next to the main jet).
Be sure to use and adjust your new idle speed and mixture screws also.
http://www.denniskirk.com/denniskirk/b2c/product_images/1/7/1/100pix/171341.jpg

kit link http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/MMYSkuDisplay.jsp;jsessionid=VQNHNSRYJY0X1LA0WTISM 4VMDK0NCIV0?leafCatId=11101&catId=111&store=Main&mmyId=11865 not bad for $16....................................... :w00t:

[bigredhead]

PROPANE ?????

are you guys insane ?

[Glenn J]

I thought the pilot was the one you adjusted that's under the carb?

[jenndnn3]

Depends on which manual you look in Glenn. If I remember correctly the owners manual does call that the pilot. While every other one, calls the slow jet the pilot. Backfire through carb? your gas is escaping from your intake valve...Or is the fire... Check your timing.

[Glenn J]

It only does the backfiring if I give it gas after I first started.

The lean suggestion makes sense.....backfiring and stalling when giving it gas during start up and a high idle once it reaches op temp.

Does anyone here know what side pilot (the one that's adjustable from the underside of the carb....near the intake manifold) is stock? What's the next size up?

[chris200x]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one having these problems. sorry glenn! I found that the backfiring I had was caused by an airleak in my intake boot. Make sure it's nice and tight against the cylinder. You don't even want to know how I solved my problem. lol Check out my thread rejetting and plug chops.

I'm not sure which #'s you want but I think you want the #35 is stock (Ithink) then my rebuilt kit also has a #40.

After you get it started and warmed up turn the pilot screw slowly clockwise until the engine stops running. From this setting turn the pilot screw back out one full turn or 360 degrees. restart the engine and reset the idle speed if necessary. that what my manual says anyway

[bigredhead]

Glenn.. that screw you are talking about is the air/fuel mixture screw...... My manual says to start the engine and get it to operating temp first...

then turn it in until the engine starts to sputter *( you will be able to hear the rev's change and it will sound different ) .. make note of it's position on the clock... then turn the other way until the same thing happens.... set it between those 2 positions.

[Glenn J]

Thanks guys. I think I'll give that a shot today. That screw is a PITA to get to when the carb is mounted, but it's easier (and lesss time consuming) than pulling off the carb.

I will also check for air leaks.

[bigredhead]

Try a flat head bit ( the 2 " type used on cordless drills with double heads on them )

[Glenn J]

That's exactly what I used the last time. Barely fit, but it worked!

I think my service manual lists the pilot sizes. I take it most dealers have jets in their parts deparment?

[Troll 2]

I sent fuzzy a special tool to adust the carb glenn. Maybe he will send it to you....lol Hey, be sure your "slow jet" is new.
http://www.keihin-us.com/img/calchart.gif

[Glenn J]

That's the one I'd like to replace Troll. The Honda manual calls it a pilot. That chart calls it the slow jet.

Once I figure out what size it is, I'll hit the local dealer and get the next two sizes up. I bought some tires from a local guy today at lunch. He said upping the slow/pilot made his old 400EX a lot easier to start.

[chris200x]

Just so every one is on the same page ((and I know what the hell is going on!) which ones are you talking about. The smaller ones are marked (the ones I have) 108 and 110. The longer ones have a 40 and a 35.

[oddball3]

The air screw is only one size there are no sizes. When you turn it in its richening it allowing less air. When you loosen it your leaning it allowing more air. I think factory settings was 2 and one eighth turns out. Turn it in untill you feel resistance, back it out 2 turns and try it, adjust acordingly. Turn in to richen, turn out to lean. If that does not really affect it then you need a different pilot jet.

[chris200x]

Your talking about this? The one on the very bottom of that pic of the carb?

[Troll 2]

Just so every one is on the same page ((and I know what the hell is going on!) which ones are you talking about. The smaller ones are marked (the ones I have) 108 and 110. The longer ones have a 40 and a 35.


The slow jet is the longwer one and has alot of problems with getting plugged up.
Heres a chart and # link. http://www.keihin-us.com/list.htm

[oddball3]

Your talking about this? The one on the very bottom of that pic of the carb?
The lower one is the air screw, the one above it is the pilot/slow jet and the top one is the main jet.

[Glenn J]

The air screw is only one size there are no sizes. When you turn it in its richening it allowing less air. When you loosen it your leaning it allowing more air. I think factory settings was 2 and one eighth turns out. Turn it in untill you feel resistance, back it out 2 turns and try it, adjust acordingly. Turn in to richen, turn out to lean. If that does not really affect it then you need a different pilot jet.

On the 200X carb, the screw is on the cyl side of the carb. Backing it out richens the mixture, turning it in leans it out. For carbs where the screw is on the air box side, it's the oposite. I have a link somewhere about this that I can post. I printed out the info and stuck in the binder with my shop manual.

Good news! Last night I backed the pilot out a turn or so. Bike fired in two kicks and no more popping. It also idled better just after starting.

I looked in my manual and could not find the pilot size. Troll's carb link shows they're available, I just need to figure out what size is stock, so I can upgrade a bit.

[jenndnn3]

Glenn I went from a 35 to a 38 on mine. But that was for the xr200r. It definatly helped. My neighbors 200s, my 85 200x, my 86 200x, all have/had 35 in em. Just look at the number on that slow jet and see what you need. Troll mentioned plugged up his (my neighbors) was so bad I threw the jet away. It wouldnt start. After that it pretty much purred, after cleaning out the carb. And a new slow jet.

[Glenn J]

Thanks Jenn! Maybe I'll just get a new slow jet and take it from there. I rebuilt and cleaned this carb about 8 months ago, but maybe I'll pull it and take a look at it again. At the very least, I think I'll toss in a bigger slow jet. The dealer should have those I think....

[Glenn J]

I pulled the slow jet out of a spare carb I have. It's labled "40". I'm going to hit the dealer today and see if I can get a 42 or 45.

[chris200x]

Be sure to post and let me know how this works out for you. I'm still tweaking my carb as well.

[Glenn J]

Will do. I'll probably get into the carb tomorrow morning. I'm doing some riding Sunday.

[Glenn J]

It's one thing after another! LOL!

I can start it, but I can't get it to idle correctly. I put in a 42 slow jet, stock is 40. The trike starts pretty easily now, even when hot. However, I can't set the idle correctly. It's either too high, or way to low and stalls out. The different between the two is like 1/16th of a turn on the idle screw. I'm kinda stumped.

[freewheel3]

It's one thing after another! LOL!

I can start it, but I can't get it to idle correctly. I put in a 42 slow jet, stock is 40. The trike starts pretty easily now, even when hot. However, I can't set the idle correctly. It's either too high, or way to low and stalls out. The different between the two is like 1/16th of a turn on the idle screw. I'm kinda stumped.
Pull the carb slide & have a look where the idle screw contacts it, there might be a gouge on it or a wear spot. This makes the idle hard to set. Using a small file & some patience you can smooth it out.
Also, check the idle screw for straightness or a buggered up tip on it.
You're sure there are no air leaks antwhere? They can also cause idling problems.

[Glenn J]

I'll take a look at the slide, I hadn't thought of that. I'll double check again for leaks just in case. Damn carbs! I see why fuel injection is getting popular.

[Frankencelery]

My 200x that I've been complaining about has a big gouge on the slide too. I've been thinking about taking a Dremel to it to see if I can smooth that out and make it possible to adjust the idle...

[Glenn J]

I hope to pull the slide out Thursday for a look.

[samster143]

I would Fix the grooves in the slide. On my trike I have just given up on getting the idle right for all conditions... Can you reach the idle adjustment screw from your riding position?What I do is. when cold use choke and kick it up.. use the throttle to get it going and adjust the idle screw for smoothe idle...as it warms up I let the screw out for smoothe idle...as I ride sometimes when I stop it needs a little fiddle to stay smoothe. I have a custom carb and everything else and this works like a charm. Once you get used to these small adjustments it will run ok.

[samster143]

Oh also the slow jet has to be in the right range! I have not read all the posts here but I know on my stock carb I needed the next size slow.

[Glenn J]

I messed with this a bit today. I backed out the pilot screw to fatten up th e mix a bit. However, I'm still getting some "hanging" when I rev the engine; the idles doesn't drop right down to idle, it takes a few seconds. I'm kinda lost... I'm running a 42 slow jet vs the 40 stock.

[Solid Snake]

My 84 200x had that EXACT same problem. I checked for air leaks for days, rebuilt the carb (all new jets, o-rings, needle, EVERYTHING), adjusted the valves, adjusted the pilot air screw, adjust the idle screw, I did everything. Anyway I got it running to the point where it would idle high and a few seconds later the idle would back down and be rock solid. Last thing I thought to check was the ignition timing and bingo!!! I pulled the c.d.i. cover off on the left side of the cylinder head and the pulse rotor base plates notch wasn't lined up with the notch on the engine (know what I'm talking about, if not let me know). It was only off about 1.5mm, a very very small amount, I guess it had slipped because the screws securing the base plate had loosened a little. Anyway after lining the notches back up everything was fixed...talk about relief after about a week of frustration, anger, and more anger at the damn thing. Now the idle is fixed perfectly.

[Glenn J]

I'm willing to give pretty much anything a shot at this point! I think I'll check that out this weekend. Thanks for the advice! :)

[Glenn J]

Ok kids! I rebuilt and older carb I purchased awhile back so I may give that a shot. I did notice some "dents" in the grove where the idle screw rests. I should check my current carb.

I think I'll try the CDI trick solid snake mentioned as well.

[Glenn J]

I finally had some time to pull the carb slide. There's a pretty good dent in it from the idle screw. I think I'll order a new one from servicehonda.com. They have the slide, spring and needle jet for $46. Hopefully, that will solve the idle issue.