85 250R counter shaft bearing

[riverrat]

Well I went outside to put my 89 clutch upgrade kit in, and now I am restoring the entire bike, LOL.

Found the noise I was talking about. The bearing holder on the stator side of the motor, for the counter balance shaft was broken in 2 places, and the long bolt was snapped. So the shaft was not supported on that end, which caused the bearing on the other end to wear.

The manual says that if the bearing on the balance shaft itself is bad, then the whole assembly has to be replaced.

This guy here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/honda-250r-trx-250r-ATC-250r-Counter-Balancer-Bearing_W0QQitemZ120143804625QQihZ002QQcategoryZ43 972QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Says he can press a new one on.
I don't get how, because the bearing cannot come off, unless the gear is removed from the balance shaft, and that marriage seems to be a permanent one.

So I need a new balance shaft assembly, and bearing holder, as well as the long bolt.

Found some other stuff wrong too, will get to it, as I go.
Probably going to do a rebuild, and frame off detail. Probably just paint the frame.

[Jason Hall]

I have changed quite a few balancer shaft bearings. It's not very hard. There Is a local bearing place here In MI that can get both bearing's a little cheaper than buying them from honda. PM me If you want to get It done.

[riverrat]

I have changed quite a few balancer shaft bearings. It's not very hard. There Is a local bearing place here In MI that can get both bearing's a little cheaper than buying them from honda. PM me If you want to get It done.

I am just curious, so they press off the gear, to get the bearing off?

Took the rest of the motor apart last night, and it all looks good, could use a bore, since there seems to be some minor scrapping in one small area of the cylinder.

Looks like it was running slightly rich, which is a good thing.

[Jason Hall]

Yes the gear Is pressed on. If you mark the gear & shaft first before you press It off, then you can press it back on In the right spot. I use a 3" cutt off wheel & just barely graze the shaft & gear. They are both hardened parts, so a center punch wont do anything but bounce off. You could also just touch It to a gringer to mark both pieces, then press It off, the bearing will fall off once the gear Is off. Then just drop the new bearing on & press the gear back on.

You said the bearing holder was broke, make sure the right side case where the big bearing sits Is'nt real sloppy. I have one that was beat up real bad, had my machine shop guy make a steel Insert to press Into the case & It works great.

[riverrat]

The bearing holder was in it's place real good. It took a little doing to get it out, but it came out by hand.

I can't even understand why the bearing holder would have broke at all. There is no indication of anything to cause that.

The bearing inside the bearing holder even looks and feels fine, but the bearing on the gear end, has a lot of slop in it. Also the water pump bearing has slop in it.

I don't have a press, so I guess I will have to bring it to a machine shop.

I am also not sure how to get out the water pump bearing, looks a little tricky to get out.

I might even go buy a press, high time I owned one.

Thanks Jason.

While I got you here, you know anything about running this bike on alcohol? Is it worth it with the stock parts? I will be boring and new piston. And I know you have to re-jet the carb.

Just looking to extract the max out of this, for as little money as possible. Right now, all it has is a FMF pipe. What else could I do to it, while I got it open, that won't break the bank?

Eventually one day, I'll do a 310, or 330 motor. But for now, I just want to ride it.

[Jason Hall]

The bearing I'm talking about Is on the oposite side (water pump side). The bearing rides In the right side case. If there Is slop In the water pump bearing, the case Is probly beat up. That is where I have my machine shop guy make a collar to press Into the case. There is a half round bearing holder, that holds the counter balancer In the case. Make sure that bearing bore Is ok.

As far as Alcohol, you would be better off talking to someone else on that. Raffa, Billy, Also some others on the site have much more knowledge that I do on that. I like regular old 110 GAS.

[Billy Golightly]

I put the 500 (stock porting on the cylinder) on Alcohol, and I did notice a difference but ONLY when I got the carb close to being perfect. And the alcohol is a lot harder to dial in then gas. If your not already very proficient at dialing in and tuning gasoline carbs I would not mess with the alky.

[riverrat]

The bearing I'm talking about Is on the oposite side (water pump side). The bearing rides In the right side case. If there Is slop In the water pump bearing, the case Is probly beat up. That is where I have my machine shop guy make a collar to press Into the case. There is a half round bearing holder, that holds the counter balancer In the case. Make sure that bearing bore Is ok.

As far as Alcohol, you would be better off talking to someone else on that. Raffa, Billy, Also some others on the site have much more knowledge that I do on that. I like regular old 110 GAS.

Ah, I see says the blind man. Ok, I will check that out. That seemed to slide out pretty good also, like it wasn't loose. There is a few thousands play in that bearing.

It sure was making a racket. I still wonder why the bearing holder broke, maybe over rev?
The motor was worked on before, and the person doing it, band-aided it quite a bit. HE might have just broke the thing tightening it, and left it, who knows.

ESR (I think) has billet holders. I am also looking at a used one on ebay. Hope I can get it, the shaft and everything.

[Jason Hall]

If the bearing's are worn or the case Is worn all that hammering of gear slack & vibration could have broke the aluminum holder.

[riverrat]

If the bearing's are worn or the case Is worn all that hammering of gear slack & vibration could have broke the aluminum holder.

I was thinking, based on that the bearing did wear out, I might as well replace all the bearings.

DO you think this kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230154560214&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
Is alright? Or are these crap bearings?

[Dirtcrasher]

I was thinking, based on that the bearing did wear out, I might as well replace all the bearings.

DO you think this kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230154560214&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
Is alright? Or are these crap bearings?


I'd be hesitant to buy it... We all want cheap parts but I don't mess around in the motor. A 6002 is a 6002 bearing, but they are all made to different tolerances.

Until they are discontinued I'd go to Service or Western Honda and eat the cost of OEM bearings and seals (crank seals anyhow). It won't be that bad.... But splitting the case again will be very bad.

When I go aftermarket bearing I look for SKF FAFNIR or other major name bearings.

Shoot them an email and ask "who the manufacturer is of the bearings and if there are more than one, please list them".

You have to remember that there are lots of 22 year old 2 strokes with OEM bearings in them and there still running. I don't trust the cheap bearing deals for the power plant .

[riverrat]

Sounds like good advice.
Looks like I got a tall order to fill out.

I was looking in western honda, and the water pump seal is like $34.

I should replace all the seals, and check every bearing while I got it apart this far.

Gonna do a piston/bore, and maybe esr reed cage.

My FMF chrome pipe is all rusted, so I will either have to paint it, or maybe I'll just splurge and get the esr pipe.

Oh, and BTW, I can't really tell if the bearing, on the gear side of the counter balancer is loose in the holder or not. It sure slides in and out pretty easy. I really need a new bearing, and to try and slip a feeler gauge in there, and see. I can't imagine that it is past .001 worn out, so maybe a band of .001 shim metal, locktited around the bearing holder, in the case, might do the trick.

[Dirtcrasher]

Nope, I wonder mess with that bearing holder. The sleeve Jason had machined up is a good fix. How much is a new holder?

I'm not sure if that "kit" even had the waterpump crap, looked like a tranny bearing, shift drum and crank/balance shaft kit.

I have rarely replaced a tranny bearing or drum bearing, they are bathed in oil all the time and just don't seem to wear out. It's the crank and counter shaft bearings that take the serious abuse that really need to be spot on - IMO....

[Jason Hall]

When you get the new bearing on the balancer shaft, see If you can wiggle the balancer up & down In the right side case. If It's real loose, you might want to do something. I don't know about the shim & lock tite, I would'nt recommend that. As far as the bearings go I'd go with Honda parts like Dirtcrasher said. The baering place here In MI has 3 different bearing you can choose from, elchepo's to expensive. You get what you pay for, so get the good ones. Oh yeah, you don't have to split the case to change the counter balancer bearing, but you do to change the crank bearing's of course.

[riverrat]

Nope, I wonder mess with that bearing holder. The sleeve Jason had machined up is a good fix. How much is a new holder?

I'm not sure if that "kit" even had the waterpump crap, looked like a tranny bearing, shift drum and crank/balance shaft kit.

I have rarely replaced a tranny bearing or drum bearing, they are bathed in oil all the time and just don't seem to wear out. It's the crank and counter shaft bearings that take the serious abuse that really need to be spot on - IMO....

I hope I didnt confuse with talking about the two different bearings.

For the side with the holder, that is broken, I think I am going to order the esr billet holder.
http://www.esr250.com/billet.htm#counterbalancer

For the other side(the side you had jason make the sleeve for I believe), I really till have to determine just how bad it is. I would not be able to have a sleeve made, if I did not know the tolerence of the gap, if there is a gap. Right now it seems to just slide in and out pretty easy, but I can't tell if it is slopping around in there, because the bearing itself is so shot. There is a good 1/16 play in the bearing itself.

What was the thickness of the sleeve you had made?

And that kit, did have the water pump bearing and seal, if I remember correctly.

[riverrat]

When you get the new bearing on the balancer shaft, see If you can wiggle the balancer up & down In the right side case. If It's real loose, you might want to do something. I don't know about the shim & lock tite, I would'nt recommend that. As far as the bearings go I'd go with Honda parts like Dirtcrasher said. The baering place here In MI has 3 different bearing you can choose from, elchepo's to expensive. You get what you pay for, so get the good ones. Oh yeah, you don't have to split the case to change the counter balancer bearing, but you do to change the crank bearing's of course.

This is my first motorbike two stroke rebuild BTW.
I have done quite a few chevy's, and a few boat motors, including my V-6 175hp merc.

So I really appreciate all the help guys, thanks a bunch.

Is there anyway of me telling if the crank bearings are worn, without splitting the case, or probably, what I am thinking, is to just go ahead and do it, since I am this far.

[Dirtcrasher]

If it's got miles on it I'd just replace the mains. There should be zero up and down play in a crank but even if there bad, they'll seem to spin great.

It's a 250cc racing 2 stroke, I do about 2 pistons to every one bottom end rebuild.

The waterpump has 2 seals, a water seal and an oil seal. One of them is a mechanical seal with a ceramic face so it's easy to spot in a kit.

If that other side case is worn then it's replace the case or sleeve it. A sleeve requires the case to be split and then set up on a milling machine. The center of that bearing is found and then they can use a boring head and bore it out to whatever is needed. That bearing originally had a close tolerence fit I'm sure - just a couple of thousandths. When the motor gets worn it gets a bit looser and can be used to a point. 1/16th or .0625 is way too much clearance and if a shim is used and it falls out, your in trouble.

All bad news I know... Sorry....

[ChrisD]

Well Tony..........you are finding all of the Honda 250R weakspots. While you're at it, why don't you try to take out the swingarm bolt. I bet it's frozen solid in the frame.....just kidding and don't rush into that project if you don't have to.

The 250R motors are known to have the counterbalancer holder on the stator side break the "ears" off. That never happened to me, but I replaced them with billet holders in both of my bikes anyway. You're actually lucky. Usually it causes the counterbalancer to cause all sorts of havoc when it lets loose.

The clutch upgrade is another weakness. That ball bearing at the end of the shaft was a dumb idea. The 89 setup is way better. Remember, before you reassemble your clutch, check your clutch basket for grooves in it. You can use a flat file to smooth out the ridges before you put it back together. I have done that on my bikes for years and it helps your clutch work more smoothly.

The swingarm bolt is the next notorious problem and finally the rear axel bearings.

[deathman53]

I know about those problems and had them. 3 stuck swingarm bolts, 3 counter balance holders break and the bearing on the counter balancer explode and shoot ball bearings into the motor, breaking the cases. I never had any problem with the cluth setup. I have 85-88 setups in all my motors. I have 2 89 updates for when I notice a problem. I had grooved cluth baskets, the cluth basket on my crf450r's is far worse than any 250r basket though. Not meantioned was the problems that I have also, I have broke 3 frames, cracked 2 swingers, snapped 3 axles and I lost count on how many aftermarket dual row carrier I went through. It seams I only get 5-6 months from ANY axle carrier. Also, I mx ride my trikes and that could be part of the reasoning. Hence the reason I found a shop to make me an atc250r frame, that I hopefully won't break. He is gonna make me a frame for an 86 200x next, then a crf450r powered trike using almost anything off the dirtbike I can.

[Jason Hall]

Deathman53, The 450's have so much torque a stock clutch basket gets tore up pretty fast. I have a 02 crf In my 350x & the basket was In real bad shape. I will be replacing It with a billet one soon. It clatters quite bad at low speeds, can't hardly stand It. I seriously doubt a CRF clutch basket would last 20 years lol.

[deathman53]

I am trading my 03 crf450r(it got used for the motor donation and other parts) for some parts, one of them include a hinson cluth basket for an 03 crf450r. Just to let you know, I am sending all the stuff out on monday, do you want the amount for the machining of the tripples too??

[riverrat]

If it's got miles on it I'd just replace the mains. There should be zero up and down play in a crank but even if there bad, they'll seem to spin great.

It's a 250cc racing 2 stroke, I do about 2 pistons to every one bottom end rebuild.

The waterpump has 2 seals, a water seal and an oil seal. One of them is a mechanical seal with a ceramic face so it's easy to spot in a kit.

If that other side case is worn then it's replace the case or sleeve it. A sleeve requires the case to be split and then set up on a milling machine. The center of that bearing is found and then they can use a boring head and bore it out to whatever is needed. That bearing originally had a close tolerence fit I'm sure - just a couple of thousandths. When the motor gets worn it gets a bit looser and can be used to a point. 1/16th or .0625 is way too much clearance and if a shim is used and it falls out, your in trouble.

All bad news I know... Sorry....

Na, it's not bad news. I knew this thing would need work. I am enjoying learning about it, and really appreciating the help, thanks man!

I have a lot of work cut out for me, and what sucks is I've been sick for a few weeks, and I have to be careful with the funds. I own my business, and when I don't work, I make no $. :(

I want to do it right, and have fun this year on the ice (I hope theres ice!)

Looks like I will be splitting the case.

[riverrat]

Well Tony..........you are finding all of the Honda 250R weakspots. While you're at it, why don't you try to take out the swingarm bolt. I bet it's frozen solid in the frame.....just kidding and don't rush into that project if you don't have to.

The 250R motors are known to have the counterbalancer holder on the stator side break the "ears" off. That never happened to me, but I replaced them with billet holders in both of my bikes anyway. You're actually lucky. Usually it causes the counterbalancer to cause all sorts of havoc when it lets loose.

The clutch upgrade is another weakness. That ball bearing at the end of the shaft was a dumb idea. The 89 setup is way better. Remember, before you reassemble your clutch, check your clutch basket for grooves in it. You can use a flat file to smooth out the ridges before you put it back together. I have done that on my bikes for years and it helps your clutch work more smoothly.

The swingarm bolt is the next notorious problem and finally the rear axel bearings.


Since I got the motor out, I am going to completely disassemble the bike, swing arm and all. New bearings all around, and powder coat the frame.

What's funny is, when I took aprt the old clutch, I don't remember a ball falling out.

Anyway, the new one works fine (on the bench) and the clutch is fully disengaging now w00t!

But gonna take it all apart again anyway, to split the case.

Which billet bearing holder you use? I was thinking the ESR one.

Also, since I don't have the funds right now to do a 330 kit, I was thinking getting an ESR piston, ESR reed cage, with carbon reeds, and dump the FMF pipe for and ESR. Bore and port the original cylinder.

How's that setup sound? Probably won't be able to touch you though.

[riverrat]

Just to update everyone on this project. I had to put it down for awhile and do other things. Now we got ice, I got the dam bug in me real bad. JohnR has been helping me, and reading ChrisD's website is helping me to get this thing setup for the ice.


Good news, I took it to backyard cycles (BYC) and he said the cylinder is not bad, and the piston is a weisco already. I also noticed I have carbon reeds, not sure what brand. They are two stage, with the bottom stage being what looks like fiberglass. There is some mild clean up work around the ports.

I am running a fmf silencer, not sure the pipe. This is my first 250R, and my first ride on one. So I don't have anything to compare it to, but when I blasted down the street with it, I could not keep the wheel down in the first three gears, I never made it to fourth.

The reason I took it apart, was because there was water in the oil. That was because the bearing holder for the balancer was broken, causing the water pump seal to leak.

Backyard is putting a new bearing on the balancer (even though he thought it was good) and I am ordering a new one for the other side. I ordered the billet bearing holder from ESR today along with a air cleaner kit (I love the way it looks!)

I am going to hold off on the main bearings for now, and hope to make it through the season, then I will go all out, and do a 330 kit with new bearings or something.

I decided to spend my money on the setup instead, and trying to follow Chris's advice on his website. So I ordered a durablue ride height adjustment, cheng tires, new rims, the same front tire as Chris, and the studs. I will also take out the small springs in the front forks.

Probably use wheel spacers for this season. To widen the stance.


The bad news is that there was signs of detonation on the piston top.
I think this could be one of two reasons, the radiators were almost completely blocked, or it's not jetted right.

With any luck, I could have this back together in 1-2weeks. I am not going to do anything cosmetic to it. That will come over time. Or get a second one to mess around with.