Come on engine experts -Updated with pics

[atctim]

Please read my last post in this thread........................................:cra zy:

[SWIGIN]

could be....just take off the valve cover and look and see if the marks are right.

[sandpuppi101]

Your talking at the pulse generator ,Correct?? I know myself on the vertical 185 -200 and even the 200 X motor's ,where you have to take the pulse generator spring's and dawg assembly off the cam,I have in fact done that before..It's one of the little oversite's,but easy fix,you know what I'm talking about ..

[Daddio]

Could you have sheared the woodruff key on the flywheel? It happened to 1upfront one time.

Ron

[Nightbiker07]

MAKE SURE YOU DONT GET THEM TOO FAR OUT OF SYNC. or the piston could crash into the vaalves, causing you a WORLD of problems.

[rally4x4racer]

sounds like it could be 180 out - flip your rotor and see what happens

[atctim]

Thanks so far for all the help......I am talking about a machine with points here guys - should have specified that before......woodruff key is there and in tact - I spun it over before hand a few times to check for clearance - so valves into the piston is out..........

BTW - timing marks line up perfectly - just wanted to know if this sounds like the case here - 180 out that is.

[Dirtcrasher]

I just go back to the basics-

Intake - On the downstroke the intake valve opens.

Compression - Piston travels up and intake valve closes just before TDC - both valves should be closed and cam lobes 180 degrees away from the rocker arms. Also, should have a tiny bit of play in both rockers now. At this point you want it to fire or spark.

Power - Piston heads back down with both valves closed.

Exhaust - As the piston heads back up the exhaust valve opens.

REPEAT

[atctim]

OK guys - this is a tough one.......I went to re-time this machine - AGAIN!!!! Here's the deal - it is a 1979 ATC110. The crank timing marks are as follows - a line on the stator at 9 o'clock and of coarse an "F" and a "T" on the rotor. When I look at the piston and when it is at TDC - the "T" is 180 degrees from the timing mark on the stator. When I line up the stator "T" and the timing mark the piston is at the bottom of it's stroke - thus when I timed is yesterday - it was in fact 180 off. Now the cam shaft timing is pretty much dead on, as the camshaft can only bolt on to the timing sprocket 1 way (not 2 ways - it is eccentric.) What the heck happened here? Please help me out. the history of this engine is unknown, but someone was into it before me as there is orange permatex all over the place.

Now - when I lined up the crankshaft timing marks 180 out (as best as I could) it will fire half assed when pulling it behind another machine.

So - what is my next step?

[Yamada]

I had a spare ytm-200 engine that gived me some trouble. I was able to make it start with starter fluid and by pulling the decompression lever. In fact, the camshaft was literally broke in two. I was shocked when I discover this. So my suggestion is: check the valve clearance and if that don't do the trick, remove the valve cover and see what going on inside...

[rally4x4racer]

are you absolutely positive your on the compression stroke and the T is not lining up? sometimes they skip right over the compression stroke because of the momentum it takes to get to the top

[keister]

Is this the red, white, and blue Honda "Patriot"? Hope you figure this one out. I hate to see it sitting while the other 2 dozen trikes run so well.

[atctim]

remove the valve cover and see what going on inside...

Valve clearances are within spec


are you absolutely positive your on the compression stroke and the T is not lining up? sometimes they skip right over the compression stroke because of the momentum it takes to get to the top

Not sure what you mean by "skip right over the compression stroke because of the momentum it takes to get to the top" - I am turning it over with a rachet and socket very slowly. the "T" is 180 out when piton is TDC.


Is this the red, white, and blue Honda "Patriot"? Hope you figure this one out. I hate to see it sitting while the other 2 dozen trikes run so well.

Actually is it called "Spirit of 79" - and it is flipping driving be batty!:wondering

[Daddio]

Are your points adjusted properly? Is the timing adjustable on this engine? the only other thing that I can think of is that the timing is still off some how.:wondering

Ron

[rally4x4racer]

I did not know how you were turning it over. For example, though, when putting my x at TDC; by the time I put enough pressure on the kicker to get the piston to the top, it goes up and back down because of the momentum. Watching the intake rockers like dirtcrasher said is the only way I can get it on the compression stroke tdc.

I would think the T may line up in different places depending on the stroke. Theres no way the flywheel is 180 out is there? What about the points bracket (if there is one)

[ceaserthethird]

Best thing to do is take some good close up pictures to see whats going on ...

Take pictures of fly wheel , Valves , piston ect ...

[atctim]

OK - in picture 1 you can see the timing mark on the Stator (I have highlighted it in red). The green mark on the rotor is what I have marked with a marker as Top Dead Center. I marked this by getting the piston at the top of it's stroke (manually with my own two eyes, and feeling the piston with a screwdriver through the spark plug hole). Then you will see the "T" marked on the rotor - and being 180 out. If I line up the "T" with the stator timing mark - it is Bottom Dead Center.
http://www.venustel.com/~tkeister/timing1.JPG

In Picture 2 - you can see the timing mark on the head casting, and the timing mark on the camshaft sprocket - lining up with it. Now - it is to be known, that this sprocket will only fit onto this cam 1 way. When I thought it was 180 out, before (which it was) I tried to rotate the sprocket 180 then bolt it back to the camshaft - that was a no go - it will only bolt on 1 way as the cam plate that bolts to the sprocket is eccentric. As you can see - it lines up perfect with the timing marks - this picture was taken in conjunction with the bottom end timing which is shown above.

http://www.venustel.com/~tkeister/timing2.JPG

One more thing - My engine builder told me to remember this simple rule - which I did assemble by. When you are at TDC, put your camshaft in with the lobes at 4 and 8 o'clock in relation to the piston. Also - Compression stroke is dependent on the camshaft - 20 with all being installed as described, I think I am close. Only problem is, without having EXACT bottom end timing marks as they should be - it is easy to get a tooth or two off one way or the other.

Thanks for the replies guys, but keep them coming - I want to get this piglet running.

[Erics350x]

Line your crankshaft marks up at TDC and check the piston if its at the bottom spin it 360 and check again. I had alot of trouble with one of those awhile back.

[atctim]

After talking to my Smart Engine builder - we have come to a conclusion. This has got to have a stripped flywheel key.......It all make sense - when I line up the flywheel timing marks - I get Awesome spark, but the camshaft is not right (nearly 180 out). When I kind of have the TDC by feel lined up, it will spit and sputter because the mechanical timing is all right, but the stator is not generating enough energy to fire the plug hard enough because those little circle pegs going through the stator need to be aligned up right, and at top dead center, they are not right at all - thus little spark.

I'll pull the stator and I am guessing a stripped flywheel key is what I will find.

I'll report more back later. It all seems so simple now that I have seen all this and talked to someone who knows this stuff!:beer

[ceaserthethird]

Yes you can check your WoodRuff Key ... see if theirs any damage to it ?

Keep use posted

Could also be that you didn't install the fly wheel correct , not sure if this can happen ...

[Daddio]

If your piston is at TDC and your timing marks are anywhere other than the TDC mark it has to be the woodruff key is sheared.

[atctim]

DINGDINGDING!!!!!!!! Daddio - you got it, I pulled the flywheel - and sure as shoot - it was sheared. Problem solved - I think - will reassemble soon and check back with a report.

Thanks all!!!!!!!

[ceaserthethird]

Take a picture of the WoodRuff Key see what it looks like ( Damaged )

[atctim]

well - there really was no key left and not much damage either. What it looked like was a shaft with no key way slot. Must have been spinning on there alot. the remainder of the key was kind of all peened over in the slot - making it really hard to get out. Took about an hour to get that all cleaned out.

[rally4x4racer]

you answered my questions.... glad you got it fixed!

[atctim]

OK guys - back to square one - flywheel (rotor) is back on properly. Keyway has a key in it too! But now it will still only run with it being pulled behind another machine. Has OK spark. I think I will try the airbox like mentioned in a previous post by someone. If that don't work, I am gonna start replacing all the electric components - stator - coil - points. If that don't work, I'm buying one of those cheap ass Chinese carbs of e-Gay. Surely eventually it's gonna run. I am however pretty frustrated and have pushed it back into it's corner to get away from it for a while.

[ceaserthethird]

I hear you bro .... Just push it to the Corner and ride another Trike ....

( when i get frustrated i Stop - & Pull one of my Trikes out and Speed to the end of my block one time and Back ) Works Great !

I only do this once cause they will call the COP'S !

[rally4x4racer]

sounds like your electricals are good if you have good spark

[atctim]

Well - I had really good spark before when I timed it - but now that it is timed CORRECT spark ain't that good.

How much slack should the timing chain have in it? It seems pretty sloppy - although that should have no effect on it running proper. Maybe I should pull a good carb off a good running machine and see how it runs. Gotta be something simple like that now!