would you trade?

[mike from long island]

i am thinking of trading my 86 250r for a quadzilla not sure yet

[350Xccelerator]

NOOOOO!!!!!!!!

[mike from long island]

why not?

[J.D.]

I would say keep the R, the 86's are hard to come by(I think, right?) Plus it'll be alot more down the road especially in good condition.

[kyle]

dont cross over to the dark side!! .....lol. JK do what you think is right and think to yourself what would you rather have?

[CHAINSAW]

ya gotta remember though.. most parts are still available for the R... Quadzillas parts are very hard to come by. Furthermore, have you ridden it?? Id keep the R.

[NOS_350X]

what do you think you would ride more/have more fun riding?? it all comes down to that in my oppinion

[ATC crazy]

:shock: KEEP THE R!!!!!!! DON'T DO IT

[Dynofox]

I'd keep the R, I heard the zilla's weren't all they were cracked up to be power wise.

[mudduck14843]

zilla's low on power ???
i don't believe it
i have a scar on my leg where my old zilla left me sitting in mid air (dumped the clutch and wasn't sitting on it right) holding on to the h-bars...i tried to run to get back on still holding on .
i hit the exhaust tip and it burned the f@#k out of me!

[ATCs Reborn]

that's a tuffy man, i've had a couple zilla's and i'd have a helluva time decidin on one or the other. the zilla is a monster (not sure where that dude above got his info) and there's plenty of potential to make it an evil monster. one thing to keep in mind is the size of the zilla, it's big, period. if you're a little dude, i'd stick with the r, but if you're anywhere like me, 6' 240lbs, you'll be very comfortable on the zilla.
one other point, if/when you ever go into the engine, do yourself a favor and split the cases, have the main bearing journals bored and have stainless sleaves put in. the zilla's monster stroke and considerable power is rough on the aluminum journals and this upgrade is almost mandatory if you're gonna beef it up at all, it's the biggest fault to the zilla.
good luck either way,
steve

[Dynofox]

I realize they aren't poochs, but i've read they aren't all that much faster than a good running 250.

[Darius1502]

Whoa guys....you may know 3 wheelers but I know my quadzillas!!!

Don't speak unless you have ridden both!!

Trust me guys...I have ridden both. I own a mint LT 500R and it is the fastest bike I have ridden period!

I rode several 250R's and compared to the Quadzilla I was completely unimpressed..power wise.

The LT 500R is a monster. But keep in mind it has to be running right. If its ragged out or not in good shape it won't have the type of power I speak of. A while back I had returned from riding a modified ATC250R that was in very (imacculate) shape...I wrote a quadzilla review for an ATV website so I could remember the way the two bikes felt and thier differences while it was still very fresh on my mind and in my senses...I will post in few minutes when my computer quits screwing up!

As far the trade...I think they are two different bikes. The 250R is going to be much more nimble. If you ride in the dunes you like the zilla more...but it is a big wide quad. It just feels different...not bad...just different.

But power wise...its is no contest...just trust me!

[MR ATC]

Whoa guys....you may know 3 wheelers but I know my quadzillas!!!

Don't speak unless you have ridden both!!

Trust me guys...I have ridden both. I own a mint LT 500R and it is the fastest bike I have ridden period!


But power wise...its is no contest...just trust me!


i've ridden both and i don't trust you. while the 500 is the only golf cart i'd consider owning its far from the fastest. i've also built severall modified 500's. yes the 500 has more power but it is not nesasarally faster. my modified 250R is the only ATV that still has the ability to catch me off guard.

[CHAINSAW]

The Zilla is only really good for going in straight lines... and it doesnt do that all that well (unless you love that vibration) R's are more comfortable... Im 6'4" and feel right at home on R's, so they guy who claims the zilla is more comfortable can only speak for himself. I guess its just user preference....

Just ride both, jump both, race both then make your decision. Every guy on here is gonna have a difference of opinion.. You make YOUR decision, because your the one who has to live with it.

[Darius1502]

The LT500R was designed to answer the increasing demand for more power from the LT250R. What the public got was huge power! LT500's were actually designed to be an MX mount. In early 1987 and 1988 Suzuki actually had a full on factory race team. Although they are large and don't have a tight turning radius, they have incredible suspension. The front and rear shocks are fantastic Showa units which are fully adjustable and totally resist bottoming.

If you want to know why they are so big and wide you have to think about the climate of the ATV world in the late 80's. Three wheelers were banned by the CPSC. ATC 350X's, 250R's, 200x's, and Big Red's were getting their frames cut in half so they could not be sold by the thousands. Dealers were not allowed to sell three-wheelers and the press and government were coming down hard on the ATV world. How in the world could Suzuki release a quad with over 20 more horsepower and twice the cc's of anything else out there? The new quad had to be wide, stable, well balanced and have excellent suspension.

Everything about the Zilla was designed to handle the massive power of the motor. The fenders are massively braced. Even the seat was something that the ATV community had never seen before. Suzuki called it the "T Bone" seat and it is so comfortable and confidence inspiring that riding anything else feels inferior. The seat actually overflows onto the fenders. These are really neat quads with a great deal of engineering effort in their design.

The motor is a real powerhouse. I have had my Zilla for 2 years and still have not opened it up yet. I may have the cleanest 1990's around. My quad was uncrated in 1993 and sat in the basement of a Suzuki dealership for 3 years in the crate. It spent time at Glamis and had a fantastic owner. I bought it in May of 1998 and am always impressed with the power. Why? Well the powerband is so so wide...it feels like a two stroke/four stroke. It is very easy to ride but if you want to ride it fast then it will scare you to death. Stock for stock it will smoke a Banshee, after 3 gears forget about it! The quad has so much torque that you literally can break the wheels loose in ANY gear on any surface! It is so powerful. Keep in mind the stock Banshee makes 33 horsepower....the stock 1987 LT500R made 56 horsepower not even the new DS650 makes that much plus the bike has an extra 100 pounds on it. Of all time powerful two stroke open class motors (motocross included!) the LT500R motor is up near the top.

I actually rode a modified 1986 ATC250R today and after riding my Zilla I was kind of disappointed with the power of the 250R. Yes the ATC had a midrange surge but the LT has so much more power the ATC felt literally like 1/2 of the 500. I love all ATC's and think they are wonderful. I think 250R's are gorgeous but as far as the LT500 it really does have way way more power! I can't tell you how awesome that motor is!

In sum, I think these quads a beautiful thing to own. They are without a doubt the last phase in the evolution of the high performance two stroke ATV. This is the largest "cc" mass produced two stoke ever made...forget four strokes! Also they are the ONLY open class 500 liquid cooled motor that Suzuki motor.

When you go to the dunes everyone will want to race you...but if you keep that coffee can sized piston running you will send a shower of sand all over 90 percent of Banshees out there.

[Darius1502]

Sorry to waste time talking about Quads....while the think the Quadzilla is fast...Trikes are still way cooler.

I want to waste my time talking about this anymore....Three wheelers rule and quads (golf carts) suck!

Lets get back to the world of 3 wheels please!!

[ATCRYDER]

Definently Trade. Check the selling prices of both on eBay and youll see the way to go is with a good LT500R.

[mudduck14843]

i'd almost swap my entire stable for a zilla...

[Wickedfinger]

I've never seen a Zilla lose a drag race - not against anything - Trike, Bike, or quad. We have a good eighth mile marked off on a good section of the non whooped part of the old coal rail line there at Playwicky where I ride and many an accelleration contest was settled there. Its all bluestone gravel and black rail dust and loam and fast as hell. This guy I used to hang with there had a mint '89. All it had done to it was an FMF pipe and an overbore wiesco. The thing was a tank and a handfull in the tight woods we rode in but let me tell you something - on the straights, he could fly. He would usually ride his LT250R around but if somebody showed up with something badder, he would run home and come screaming back up there on his zilla, ready to dominate and spend the rest of the afternoon trying to find the poor sap out on the trails so he could crush him. I remember the first time a Raptor showed up there and the guy thought he was the stuff - let me tell you something, that 12 year old dinosaur 500 spanked that guys ass so bad he trailered it up and we never saw him again. I spent many years and thousands of dollars trying to find and build a quad or trike that could beat him ... and every time ... LT-R, Banshee, 250R ... all down in flames. I came close once with my '96 400L, he only beat me by 10 yards - and I consider that a victory - we're talking at least 2k spent on go fast goodies - AAEN pipe, Answer silencer, 38mmTMX flatslider carb, head ported, Nik's piston, intake runners were scalloped and polished, Boyesen prototype Polaris Rad valve (I helped test it), Purple spring and weight kit, AAEN dual angle helix (cvt stuff), Oil injection block off .... blah, blah, blah .... 2k and no win.

[TimSr]

Definently Trade. Check the selling prices of both on eBay and youll see the way to go is with a good LT500R.

While I lack the enthusiasm, and do not share the same respect for the Quadzilla as some of the other posters, Im with ATCRYDER on this one. Its highly unlikely that the sale value of the R is a s high as the Suzuki, and for that reason alone, Id make the trade without hestation, sell the Zilla, buy another R, and have several hundred dollars left over.

[Darius1502]

I hear ya Tim....I love 3 wheelers and 4 wheelers....but I want you to look at it this way...

The Quadzilla is not our enemy here...rather it is our brethen of iron, our brother! You see the Quadzilla really represents what we all loved about the 80's ATV scene....the magical excess of two stroke horsepower!

If we think about it with the Suzuki Quadzilla, Suzuki entered the last uncharted frontier that every manufactuer was dreaming about: The magical 500cc two stroke single ATV! It is the last evolution of the high performance ATV which started with the 1981 ATC 250R....and ended sadly with the 1990 LT500R.... The big Suzook feel victim to the same stink from the CSPC that all our 3 wheeler did.

Current 4 strokes of today just don't fit in this catagory....sorry guys!! Just remember Quadzilla may have 4 wheels...buts its a 3 wheeler at heart!!

I must be ready for bed or just delusional!! Oh well here is another pic of my mint LT500R....isn't she gorgeous!!

[Darius1502]

Its not 480cc's or 490cc's like some manufacters try to call a 500cc...this baby is a full 499cc's !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darius1502]

one more time

[Ace Mon]

I havent ever ridden a quadzilla first of all . But let me say this . I have owned both a YZ 250 and a YZ 490 . Was the 490 hella faster than the 250 ? Not really . If I had a zilla it would be a dune machine because that would be the best way (in my opinion) to utilize the power . I ride tight tracks and woulndt be able to unleash the full potential of a zilla . So it all boils down to what kind of riding you do . Zillas are becomming scarce . So parts may be an issue . I have allways wanted a Zilla and if someone had approaced me with the same offer ..... I might just jump on it .

[MR ATC]

a little history lesson for Darius 1502...3wheelers were never banned. the manufactures agreed not to make them for 10yrs. legally if they wanted to they could be making them right now. the suzuki 500 was not the first 500 two stroke ATV mass produced that honnor belongs to the Tiger 500 3 wheeler. additional Honda was building 500 ATC's back in 82 they just never got released to the public. Honda even had a ATC 500R ready for production for 87 but it never happened. now maybe for you but the zilla dose not represent what the 80's ATV scene was all about. if ANY atv represents the 80's it would have to be the 250R the winningest ATV. and the father of all hi-performance ATV's. it was so good that the fourtrax 250R uses the same motor and rear suspension and still today that ATV (250R) is still the choice racer for all the pro's (when was the last time you saw ANY quadracer in competition) so in essence the 250R 3 wheeler leghacy is still alive today just with a extra front wheel.
are lt 500's good machines...yes but lets not get emotional it dose hot have close to the same heratige as the 250R.
that said it is still the ONLY quad i would consider owning because it dose have enough power to move the overweight chassie but its top speed is not all that.

[TimSr]

Darius,
Im not here to turn this into a Zilla bash, but Ive ridden one, and competed against them, and Im just not impressed. As far as MX goes, in most cases, Suzuki's LT250R will turn better lap times than the 500 with the same rider. Between the gate dropping and the first corner, they do fine, but nothing that makes them stand out above any of the other typical competitors. I dont think they are a bad machine, but to me they seem more hype than real performer. I dont read or memorize statistics, so they dont do much convince me of their superiority. ATVs are a complete system, and there are a lot of factors between the motor, and the ground, so producing power, and being able to deliver it in a useable fashion are two different things. You obviously have a great love an passion for these classic beasts, and I respect that, but until somebody starts showing up at local competitions, or riding places and demonstrating their superiority in real world conditions, that I can see, I wont be looking to replace my TRX250R with one. You certainly do have a nice looking classic, and Im glad it serves you well!

[Andrew]

that LT500R is not mint,it has a dent in the front rim! lol

[Darius1502]

Ok...I hope did'nt offend anyone...as you can see we all love our ATV's and ATC's. Its really cool because I know there will always be clean bikes and cool people to B.S. with even when I am 100 years old. BUT I AM GOING TO TELL YOU WHAT I THINK AND DON'T GET YOUR FEELINGS HURT!

Guys, Guys, Guys...I am glad we have such a lively debate going here...thaks for the history lesson. I apologize for my mistatment...ok...the ATV Consent Agreement was not a ban you are correct.

I can only speak from experience about the power of a my LT500R which as you can see is very functional and a 100% performer. I can also speak from my experience as a motocross bike rider as well as an ATV rider. I don't ride only 'old' bikes that are over 20 years old. Friends I have one of the fastest motocross bikes on 2 wheels right now...the YZ 400F (of course the 450F is faster) and I have ridden KX 500's, KTM's, etc. So I can relate to power through some of the fastest bikes around.

Raw Power - I know modern bikes, ride motocross (yes two wheelers) and I can tell you my quadzilla will beat any bike of its time and probably most of today. The ATC250R makes about 36 HP compared to the power valved motor of the Suzuki which made 53 HP in 87 and 51 HP in '88, '89' and '90. Guys...I am done with the raw power issue here....just drop it

Now for power on the track - While it may not be much faster than a TRX 250R around the motocross track (more like supercross these days) give it an open area and it will pelt those bikes into small pieces. Now here is a history lesson and a quiz. Does anyone know why 500cc motocross is dead? Is it because those bikes were not faster than the 250's? No!! Its because the the 500's can't use all thier power on the tight tracks since you can't open them up. The massive piston and gyro effect means more forward inertia and it is harder to make directional changes. Thats why 500cc motocross is dead...you see supercross killed it...so if you want to compare a Quadzilla on the track to a 250R or LT250 it is a ridiculous comparison. Do you think Ricky Carmicheal would win supercross races on a CR500...no freakin way....but the CR does have more power!

The 490 Analogy - As far as the comparison between the YZ250 and YZ490....the YZ490 was not a very powerful bike as far as open classers go. It had an air cooled cylnder that has massive power loss when it gets hot and weak porting. Not a really accurate comparison...anyone with a CR500 and an 1989 CR250.

Mr. ATC's History Lesson - Yes...I realize Mr. ATC that Honda made some 480R that 'Wax' rode in the early 80's. Yes they were factory bikes. Oh...yes I do remember Tiger and thier 500 3 wheeler with its Carlise Trail Pro tires in the rear and its air cooled motor. I was really talking about mass production which reached mass sales.

One final point - Mr. ATC also made you point about the ATC 500R...Honda never had the balls, nuts, sack, cajones to make one on 3 wheels or even put a 500cc in a Quad....

Well guys guess who had the FREAKING BALLS......




SUZUKI




and thats why I love it!!!!!!

[ATC crazy]

MR ATC...I saw a zilla in competition at the Flattrack races...but it did horrible. :D

And Darius...Honda did have the balls to put a 500cc L.C. motor into a machine...HELL, IT WAS A 3-WHEELER...Suzuki never had the balls to put in a 3 wheeled frame like Honda did.

So who's got the bigger balls now...Honda or Suzuki??

[Darius1502]

I was talking about MASS PRODUCTION!!!!!!!!!!!!


PLEASE GET THIS STRAIGHT....DID HONDA MASS PRODUCE A 500cc 3 WHEELER OR 4 WHEELER?

NO!

[MR ATC]

well i certanly don't want to offened anybody, but the games have begun...lol...jk...I to ride/race modern 2 strokes. the most powerfull 2 stroke motor ever mass produced was the 1986 CR 500 the least powefull 500 two stroke motor mass produced was the suzuki RM 500, the same motor in the LT 500 but detuned.
now the real reason the 500 class is dead...because SUZUKI and YAMAHA did not have the "balls, nuts, sack, cajones " to compete with the more powerfull CR's and KX,s they S & K complained to the AMA that the 500 class was not a big selling bike...and they were right when your bike stinks it won't sell H & K were selling out there 500's.
as far as the tracks are concerned if you've ever ridden Unadilla you'd relize that a 500 is faster on some tracks.

if Suzuki had the balls how come they never entered there super quads in ANY of the score off road desert races like BAJA 1000 or 500 lots of wide open places perfect for 500cc of power.the place were the 250R is undefeated. A priveteer team on a ATC 250R even beat the Yamaha factory team on their banshee in 1987 (the yamaha team was also the former Honda ATC 250R team ) were was Gary denton and the LT500?

yes "WAX" rode the 480 in 82-84 as well as others but Coe and Hart rode liquid cooled 500's in 85/86.
MR Honda had the balls but his lawyers did not besides why do it The 250R is still the WINNINGEST ATV made.

you think your little YZ 400F can compete against a CR 500?

good debate

[Darius1502]

Mr. ATC,

You are so flat out wrong about the motors....man!! Don't do that with facts unless you are 100% correct!

The 1984 RM 500 was the last open class year for Suzuki motocross bikes. The bike was aircooled, had huge radiator fins, painted black, NO COUNTER BALANCER and had been around for over 5 years.

The Suzuki motor is completely new. It is a counter balanced two stroke with a power valve. It was a completely new and re designed motor. Please don't confuse facts or history...we should all appreciate history and these facts because if someone reads your post they may never see an LT500R or know anyone with one. As a result they will be very misinformed...perhaps forever!

I never said the LT500 was the fastest Open class two stroke ever made and I never said my YZ 400F is faster either. So those are moot points you raised and I won't discuss them further. I will say that my YZ400F will (with the same rider) beat a CR500 around a tight track and maybe even a motocross track. Thats because it will make pure traction when the other guys is putting out massive horsepower and sliding around. The track conditions would have to be very favorable for the CR to win. Now if it were at Olds Hill in Glamis with a paddle...I am eating sand!

Suzuki did have a factory racing team in early 1987 and Gary Denton did start out riding Suzuki. It was not until Suzuki ended its program that he switched. ( I will concede that I am not 100% sure about that.

I am not sure what you are saying about Unadilla as I think it is fast too. My point was only that the Supercross greatly hurt the sport of outdoor motocross. Most tracks are now built more like supercross tracks and that is not favorable for Open Class bikes.

Thats all I can say....please don't say things like the motor's are the same....its simply not true.

Great debate...now what should we talk about?

[Ace Mon]

Mr. ATC wrong ??? I dont believe it !

[JO500R]

I"M LOVING THIS 8) :D

[MR ATC]

what is YOUR classification of mass produced? Suzuki did have a liquid cooled 500 before the lt 500.

well if your YZ 400F will beat my CR500R around a tight track then my CR 125R will beat your 400F around a even tighter track.

now that we both agree that SUzuki had a factory team even befor 87 that still dose not answer the question where were they at Baja with the mighty 500 against Honda's little old lady 250R or the 500's that did not exist we wont even mention the ATC500X (4 stroke) wax rode in 82 and 83 that git beat by his teamates on the little old 250R.

your own statement was give it an OPEN area and it would stomp them (250R's) is BAJA 1000 not open enough...should we race them on the moon were the 500's porky weight won't be as much an issue?

finally Honda own's 30% of Suzuki so who REALLY has the balls

[200x Basket]

the real reason the 500cc class is dead is because of the lack of demand from the public to buy them. the manufacture can not afford the research and design on a bike that only racers buy. the last real update on the cr500 was 89 and i think it was 88 for the kx500. after a decade of sticker changes the bike was so out dated that a 2003 cr250 could turn a better lap time.

[Darius1502]

Alright...MR ATC...please:

1) Show me the liquid cooled bike that Suzuki produced before the LT500R?

2) Admit that the motor found in the RM 500 is not the same as the LT 500 or you will be proven wrong

3) Drop the whole Baja issue....because if I remember correctly didn't some 550 pound Honda utility Quad just win Baja and beat scores of Fourtrax 250R's and others....

therefore: If the Baja 1000 is the yardstick that utility quad (Recon, is it?) must be the fastest and best out of everything. Of course since its a Honda you are probably happy about that anyway.

4) Realize that even if Honda owns 30% of Suzuki (a fact I did not verify) then Suzuki had more skin in the game since they would logicially be the owner of the other 70% of the shares = bigger balls...more skin = more nuts!

5) Dont make crazy arguments like the CR125 argument. The YZ400 and its later verisons are very special bikes that set the 2 wheeler world upside down. Yes...Honda makes a CR450F for you Honda loyalists. These bikes will hands down beat an open class bike (yes even your ATC 250R and my LT500 on a tight track)...its a non issue and anyone who rides dirt bikes would laugh at the fact we are even debating this.

6) Go have beer for me....we have worked to hard on this debate!

Peace man!! Whew!!!

[MR ATC]

Alright...MR ATC...please:

1) Show me the liquid cooled bike that Suzuki produced before the LT500R?

2) Admit that the motor found in the RM 500 is not the same as the LT 500 or you will be proven wrong

3) Drop the whole Baja issue....because if I remember correctly didn't some 550 pound Honda utility Quad just win Baja and beat scores of Fourtrax 250R's and others....

therefore: If the Baja 1000 is the yardstick that utility quad (Recon, is it?) must be the fastest and best out of everything. Of course since its a Honda you are probably happy about that anyway.

4) Realize that even if Honda owns 30% of Suzuki (a fact I did not verify) then Suzuki had more skin in the game since they would logicially be the owner of the other 70% of the shares = bigger balls...more skin = more nuts!

5) Dont make crazy arguments like the CR125 argument. The YZ400 and its later verisons are very special bikes that set the 2 wheeler world upside down. Yes...Honda makes a CR450F for you Honda loyalists. These bikes will hands down beat an open class bike (yes even your ATC 250R and my LT500 on a tight track)...its a non issue and anyone who rides dirt bikes would laugh at the fact we are even debating this.

6) Go have beer for me....we have worked to hard on this debate!

Peace man!! Whew!!!

1 & 2 if my 20+ years of mags did not just get thrown in the garbage i would post you a pic, but as of right now i'll have to do some looking.

3. you mentiond the 500 in open spaces and i gave you a perfect example. well it was still a Honda were is the big balled Suzuki golf carts?
any condition you want the 250R has proven it's domence. desert,trails,MX,speedway,TT,

4. i validated it when i worked for Honda

5. want some real history hold on cuz it gets fun...the first motocross bikes were all 400-500cc 4 strokes. then along came a little company with their little 2 stroke screamers. when the FIM allowed them to race they were called a fad, BUT 250cc 2 strokes had to compete in the 250cc support class and 500cc 2 strokes had the compete with the 500cc 4 strokes. not like in todays politically correct racing scene now to please the government the manufactures are making 4 strokes but to be competitive they have to be almost twice the size...so your revolutionary YZ400 is just remarketed 60's tecnology. and to my Crazy argument about a CR125R i've beaten YZ400F's at unadilla and lost to them at Broome-Tioga so as someone who has tried a MX bike or 2 ;) I also NEVER said a 250R or lt500 would beat any bike on a mx track. but I did prove it at Broome-Tioga one day. i was on a 85 Tecate and the bike was a KX 500. then there are the pics i have of another KX 500 getting about half the air i;m getting on my 250R. see what it all comes down too...rider skill every damn one of these 2,3,4, wheelers are slow (never seen one ride itself) it's the rider that makes them fast.

6. no thanks i do not drink.

next??? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[NOS_350X]

well i kinda get lost throught this whole debate but heres my knlowledge

cr500 will blow away any other 500 2 stroke out there

honda raped yamaha when the crf450 came out

the quadzilla is a grate bike but lacks power for a 500cc powersource

honda has proven themself in every type of racing suzuki has yet to do that

suzuki had to produce the lt500 because they where so far behind in the atv departemnt they needed something to catch the eye of the conusemers honda yamaha and kawi had the atc to learn with and test then they just add a extra wheel suzuki just puts a huge engine in it to make up

[Darius1502]

Someone with motocross knowledge from this last decade please fill Mr. ATC in!!!!!!!!!

The YZF is just re-worked 60's technology....give me a break!

The only thing 60's about it is that it is a 4 stroke!

Thanks for a great laugh on that one!

As far as your prowess on the KXT 250 it is impressive. Maybe one day we can meet discuss these things then go ride. We both seem to have alot of cranial space for these things....

Peace out!

Have you guys seen what the guys at ATK are building with thier 700cc two stroke Intimidator dirt bike....wow:

http://www.atkusa.com/news/displayNews.asp?newsID=30#

Is that faster than your ATC?

[MR ATC]

so whats so "NEW"

4 stroke...hope
5 valves...nope
overhead cam...nope
liquid cooling...nope
long travel suspension...nope
disc brakes...nope

Yamaha finally making a competative MX bike...yep

History...how many championships has the 400 won since its debut???

I already posted that bike and some day that motor Will be in a trike frame

[Darius1502]

This is what was said from magazines and the motocross testers who rode the first YZ 400...


If you were reading motocross magazines in mid 1997 and early 1998 the following words were used to describe the bike:

Yamaha's foresight, coupled with its engineering efforts, places the YZ 400 beyond "Revolutionary", "Cutting Edge" or "Ahead of its time". Yamaha has developed and delivered a new competition machine that will change the way technology is applied toward motocross equipment, forever.

Comments from the first testers:

"WOW! What an engine! The engine pulls like a Saturn 5 rocket, on steroids! You can really feel the bike tug on the handlebars when you tweak the throttle. The engine has great low-end and its power moves very quickly into the mid and upper RPM's. The light flywheel lets the engine rip to the moon. Yamaha states the engine can rev to 11,000 RPM, and it does, with big power on tap. On Carlsbad's long uphill, I cranked on the throttle hard and shifted like a banshee all the way up the hill. The bike literally catapulted its way up the hill! "

"From the starting gate to the first turn, the acceleration was so fierce that it bordered on intimidating! Power started early in the revs, pulled hard at mid-range and then screamed out on top like a road racer!"

Now I am done with this debate since it seems that no bike in the world can live up to the legend of your ATC 250R. Not a Quadzilla, not a YZ400, nothing it seems. I think the 250R is an awesome trike that is a real legend. Its just a great bike and one that I loved for many years...

Now where is my liquid cooled RM500? Oh and if you find it please post of pic of the engine so we can see that it is the same one thats in Quadzilla.

Talk to you later Mr. ATC and take care of yourself!

Its been fun!

[Darius1502]

Ok...since I know you won't find a liquid cooled Motocross 500cc by Suzuki here is the RM 500 in 1984 the last year it was made. As you can see the motor is nothing like the LT500...even the cases are completely different.

[Darius1502]

Here it is:

[MR ATC]

if the magazines told you to jump off a cliff with your yz400 would you?
is that your argument? what the magazines say...get a grip they are PAID to promote manufactures bikes. did you ever think they are doing the same thing with the 400 that they did with quads? they know were the future is so they promote it...it's called job security. if the 400 is so great why dose it have to compete against 250 2 strokes and the 250f compete against 125 2 strokes.
you still have not told me what is so REVOLUTIONARY about it. what is the new technology.

[NOS_350X]

ya never belive what a mag says they always get payed off to have certain bikes win

[Darius1502]

You show me the liquid cooled RM 500 you were supposed to then I will give you some technical information....

Do your homework first!

[TimSr]

honda yamaha and kawi had the atc to learn with and test then they just add a extra wheel suzuki just puts a huge engine in it to make up

Yamaha????

[Darius1502]

OH...and while you are at it MR. ATC please show me how the Suzuki LT500R motors and the RM 500 motors are the same...PLEASE SHOW ME OR STOP THIS THREAD!

I don't doubt that you know a great deal about ATC's and ATV's...you are very knowledgable....but you motocross bike knowledge is not as strong!

Show me the liquid cooled RM500 and please show me how and why the motors of the RM 500 and the Quadzilla are the same or stop Wasting my time!!

I certainly will not dig up any technical information for you when you have not produced one bit yourself....

have a great day and peace man!

[MR ATC]

ok Darius, lets pay attention MY entire library of MX/dirt/ATV information was destroyed because of my soon to be ex wife. it will take time for me to research and find a pic...but i will.
in the mean time whats so new about your YZ400F...i'm still waiting

oh and how many years before the super wizards at yamaha finally rerouted the exhaust pipe so you could get to the oil filter.
here is all yamaha did they put a 4 stroke motor in a YZ chassie. Big frickin deal. it's been done for over 20 yrs. just due to Yamaha's whineing the AMA allowed them in the 250 class. typical Yamaha hypocracy at it's best. we (yamaha) can't be compete with everyone else so we will change the rules. why did yamaha never make a 250 2 stroke golf cart...because there 350 two stroke can't even compete with the others 250's. they could not come up with a fast 500 two stroke mx bike so they cried to AMA (with Suzuki) and got the 500 class dropped. they also could not compete against the "works" bikes of kawi and honda so they cry to the AMA about a new production based rule. why so they could then build a one-off "works" 4 stroke open class bike to compete with production based 250 2 strokes.
you really want to argue MX/ATV history with me??? i'm just getting started... :twisted:

your YZ400F is a nice bike i've ridden them and thought they are a good bike...reveloutinary...no

lets talk about some of yamaha's ideas that were so great
radiator on the triple clamps,
B.A.S.S.
pink colors...lol
there failure with aluminum frames
air box where gas tank should be

here is a history question for you

who invented the first 4 wheel ATV...

[Darius1502]

Hmmm...lets see....most people would say Suzuki the LT125 in 1983.

Of course since you love Honda I bet your answer is going to the Honda Odyssey which would be classified as an ATV.

Of course one would think we were talking about a 'sit down' type ATV with the nature of this board...but you have both your answers.

Furthermore you have already shown your bias against Yamaha. I suggest if you think the impact of the YZ400F was so insignificant that you post a thread about it on real 'dirt bike' forum and see your response.

Also...I do not recall nor could I find in any thread a place where I said the YZ400F was 'revolutionary'....I think that was your language and now you are trying to make me prove the words you used to describe it. Thats a sneaky way to win an argument...just as sneaky as your Odyssey trick!

I do admire your persistance!

[Darius1502]

I am sorry to hear about your collection of mags and issues with your soon to be ex wife. I know how much it would hurt me if I lost all my old mags.

I also know how much domestic trouble can hurt and weigh on the mind as well...

You are one persistant clever S.O.B though! (meant in a respectful way!)

[MR ATC]

This is what was said from magazines and the motocross testers who rode the first YZ 400...


If you were reading motocross magazines in mid 1997 and early 1998 the following words were used to describe the bike:

Yamaha's foresight, coupled with its engineering efforts, places the YZ 400 beyond "Revolutionary", "Cutting Edge" or "Ahead of its time". Yamaha has developed and delivered a new competition machine that will change the way technology is applied toward motocross equipment, forever.

I do believe this is your post...i do see the word "Revolutionary" in it

so, wrong

and, the first 4 wheeler was invented by Yamaha back in 1975 but they decided there was not a market for it against the Honda Trikes and decided against releasing it to the public...

so, wrong again

wanna try again?

who invented the First Big Wheel M/C (not including the rokon).

thanks for the compliment.

[TimSr]

Earl, in his barn, in 1927 while under the influence of homemade "tractor fuel".

[MR ATC]

so close Tim, but it was his brother Daryal and his other brother Daryall and it was 1926 not 27. but your right about the tractor fuel

[ATC crazy]

therefore: If the Baja 1000 is the yardstick that utility quad (Recon, is it?) must be the fastest and best out of everything. Of course since its a Honda you are probably happy about that anyway.



Actually it was the Honda Rincon 650...only a month into production... ;)

And I highly doubt that MR ATC would be wrong about pretty much anything (ATC/ATV's and stuff like that)

[mudduck14843]

DIDN't thiss post start out about opinions if someone should trade a zilla for a 250r ?????

[MR ATC]

yes it did, but Darius has Honda envy... :-P :-P :-P

[Darius1502]

First, Revolutionary was used in that article I quoted. I did not use that word nor did I adopt it. I was only using the YZ as an example of fast motorcycle. Those words never came out of my mouth.

Second, you are still wrong about the Quadzilla sharing the its motor with the RM500...

Such a common bit of knowledge and you were wrong....tisk, tisk

No Honda envy here....I have owned them and I think they are great. It was a simple question by the post about a trade....

and then Mr ATC took a trade and decided to throw a tyrade!

[Billy Golightly]

First time I've gotten involved in this thread...but I can vouch (Partly) for the fact that the Quad racer motor was not something all new. I'm pretty sure it came from an RM, but I'm not a 100% sure. But I definetly remember reading and hearing about it coming from another bike (Streetbike perhaps or something?).

[MR ATC]

Darius

First; YOU posted the quote to describe your thoughts and feelings.

second; nope

third; i simply replied to your post then YOU started posting false impressions.

such obvious HONDA envy ;)

still waiting for YZ400 inovations :D

my dad can beat up your dad :evil:

answer...keep the 250R the Zilla is too slow :D

[200x Basket]

i dunno, MR ATC i have not seen you post one shred of evidence. you can both argue but if i were judging the debate i would sway to darius. i agree the trx250 is a better machine then the lt500 but that is only opinion :rolleyes:

[Darius1502]

Mr ATC said talking about 500cc two stroke motors:

"the least powefull 500 two stroke motor mass produced was the suzuki RM 500, the same motor in the LT 500 but detuned"

Well looking at pictures....they really do look alike...yeah...I think Suzuki just painted the LT500 engine blue...wow you were right!!

They are exactly the same!!!!!



NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MR ATC]

did i say it was a production 1984 RM 500??? noooooooooo!

now we all know your just trying to take to focus off you because i'm still waiting for those Major techno advances the YZ400 brought us.

oh did you know that in 98? that a Honda 350X motor in a 250R chassie won the 4 stroke open championship golf cart class. did you also know at the begining of the year everyone's bets were on one of 2 YZ 400F powered 250R chassied ( they had to use a Honda chassie because the banshee is so great lol) golf carts. some advancement! a 16yr old air cooled 4 valve Honda 4 stroke 350 beat the mighty powerful and super liquid cooled 5 valve Yamaha 400. inovative my trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro...keep trying i'll let you wait on the RM 500 Some more since thats all you've got right now. i've whooped your trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro on all the other debates... :D :D :D

[Darius1502]

Your quote is in big text above so even you can read it.

You just keep bringing up more and more crap to divert us all away from the fact that you were wrong...dead wrong about the LT500 motor.

I am glad the 350X motor did so well...but as you know unless we are talking about a lap times with the same rider over the same track you cannot say that just because one bike won over another the motor has got to be better.

The truth is that there are so many variables included that the fact the 350X motor won may have very very little to do with the motor itself and more to do with the chassis and the rider.

As far as kicking my trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro on these debates I think that one fellow forum visitor already said that you:

1) 'have not produced a shred of evidence' and
2) that I am winning!

So please go rant and rave and give us more useless facts so that our attention can be diverted once more from the fact that you were wrong!

It is exciting to see what you can come up with next...so please keep trying to confuse the issue with your dribble!

Peace out!

[bbechtel16]

Ah, the quadzilla........... What a freaking insane quad! Now mind you, my friend has one and I rode it, like a month ago, and other than that the quickest machine I've ridden was my SX LOL. Yeah they are enormous, I'm 5' 7" 153lbs so yeah its intimidating. So anyway, I jumped on this thing, carefully got her going (not used to riding clutch and such), after getting to know her a bit, I just ripped her wide open 1-2-3-crap, out of room! I love how big and stable they are, if it weren't for that I probably would have never opened it up like I did (never rode a 2 stroke before either). Tottaly changed my outlook on quads. My most recent experience with a quad before then was my friends brothers polaris 250 2 stroke CVT (I forget the model, it is like an early version of a scrambler or something) and I was like, I don't like this, I feel much safer on my 3 wheeler. But in the damp grass field with the LT500 I could spin that thing around half decent w/o fear. Man I wanna go ride it again now after writing this.

[wanta250r]

LOOK at those motors. The carb and intake go into the engine the same way. The motor mounts are very close. The chain is on the same side. It looks like it could be derived from the RM500 -P

[MR ATC]

First time I've gotten involved in this thread...but I can vouch (Partly) for the fact that the Quad racer motor was not something all new. I'm pretty sure it came from an RM, but I'm not a 100% sure. But I definetly remember reading and hearing about it coming from another bike (Streetbike perhaps or something?).

lmfao

seems like i got one on my side... so its 1 to 1...lol

i may not have proved a RM 500 lc to you yet
but you have not proved there was not one. just a picture of a 84 RM 500 which proves nothing.

i have however given sufficant proof that the YZ 400F is not as inovative as you though and not as great as you claimed. i've given you many oportunities to prove your YZ 400 statements, but you have yet to do so.

so lets look at the score again,

RM 500 debate ;

my proof was a lc 500 ...0
your proof was not one ...0

YZ 400f debate;

my proof...no new technology, no proven race records, can be beat by 250, 125 2 strokes and 16yr old 4 strokes, not even close to a 500 2 stroke, Yamaha is a bunch of whiners, and hypocrites,...6

your proof...paid magazine testers...1

overall score 7-1

keep tryin your getting close...and entertaining me

[NOS_350X]

i just rembered that i raced a yz450f it was on sand then again on packed dirt i was at a river ridin with my friend i was on my bike and he was on my 350x and the guy came up and we started talkin i raced my 350x agenst him on the sand and i took off quicker the only time he started to catch me was in 3rd but when he shifted into 4th i pulled away until he had it peged he was about 5mph faster the on the dirt we stayed side by side until the top speed he pulled away shows the crappy yamaha power i didnt race my 125 agenst him but i wouldt be suprised if i could of kept up with him considering my yz 125 pulls better in 2-4th than my 350x

[J.D.]

I like Taco Bell.

[Darius1502]

Hey Mr ATC....

What was the last year of the RM500? Do you even know? Well guess what....it was freaking 1984!

In fact please go to this site...actually anyone who goes and reads this thread please visit this site and find for me a liquid cooled RM 500:

http://www.georgiaoffroad.com/dbindex.phtml?brand=Suzuki&modelletters=RM

The RM 500 was produced in 1983 and 1984. 1984 was the last year it was made and it was air cooled both years.

Now please MR. ATC...I am finished with you...on this thread...we can get into it later on another issue...but you have lost this battle.

If we get more people who have actually ridden a Quadzilla they will attest to its power....but if we have a bunch of dreamers like you then....we will never get the truth only a bunch of confused facts and fantasies.

No offense....and as always take care and am done with you here!

[Billy Golightly]

http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/columns/dntask/2002_10/

4th letter Down...



985 SUZUKI RM500F
Hey,
While searching the internet for Suzuki RM500 stuff, I came across your site. I'm not sure how long ago, but a guy from Europe asked you about the specs on his 1985 RM500. You told him that Suzuki never made one.
That is absolutely not true. They made them in 1985 AND 1986. I not only own one, but also have the 1985 sales brochures (RM's and full-line), the original bill of sale from the Suzuki dealer, the original Suzuki certificate of origin (title), owner's manual, service manual, micro fiche and all service and parts receipts for it. All of them clearly state the year 1985.
There were VERY few 1985's sold in the US (less than 100), and no 1986's that I know of. They were generally Canada and overseas models. Changes for 1985 are as follows: the 1985 has a front disc brake, yellow handlebars (instead of gold), silver engine cases (instead of black), gold wheels (instead of silver), and different tank decals. The 1986 was only available overseas. Not in the US or Canada.
If he still needs the specs on his bike, feel free to give him my email. I'll give it to him straight from the Suzuki literature. You may want to post this on your site for other guys who have them.
JRS

I tested an RM 500E in 1984 (actual displacement 492 ccs) and noted that it was a heavy bike with a confused four-speed gearbox. Suzuki never offered a bike for testing in the US in 1985, and the only 500s sold were leftover 1984 models. When we contacted Suzuki for availability of testing the 1985 500, they replied: "It was not selling enough to pay for the ads. We will not offer the bike in the US this year." I have no idea what happened in Canada or Europe.

If they made the 85 and 86 RM500, what was to keep them from redesigning an 87 and give it watercooling?

[Billy Golightly]

http://www.jhmsport.com/Velar_og_Velarhlutir/DEP_Ror_og_kutar/Suzuki_hljodkutar/suzuki_hljodkutar.html

At this page there is a list of Suzuki RM500's from 83-86. Not sure what language the page is in...

http://www.rageperformance.com/repairmanualssuzuki.asp

This page lists repair manuals for the RM500 to 88 (Possibly a mis-print)


http://www.onoffroad.com/multiair.html

This page lists 84-86 RM500




Last night I tried searching the Suzuki of Japan website for a list of bikes made, but I know zero japanese and the online translator didn't do too good of a job.

[Jeb]

I personally witnessed in the summer of '00, an LT500 Quadzilla with a shiny nickel plated pipe get beat in a drag race 4 out of 4 times by a new stock Polaris Scrambler 500. It was heartbreaking. :(

I like to bring that up to rib quadzilla guys, :-D it is truth, but there's a reason why: the quadzilla wasn't healthy! it had some motor problems. It was getting taken off the line and was coughing and sputtering and then it crapped out in a 5th drag race. That's my only experience with a Quadzilla.

As for the RM500 debate, Seems like I remember Suzuki having a European Works liquid cooled rm500. I have no photographic proof right now and could be wrong. I'd have to go back through some of my early 80's dirt bike mags. There were all kinds of one-off un-obtainable "works" rides back in the day. And there's always been a different market across the pond with some unusual bikes produced that were not available here. I would say that if the LT500 motor has a counter-balancer, then it would have to be classified as an ATV engine, just like the ATC & TRX 250R motor and the KXF 250 Tecate-4 Motor. Its obvious all the 250 2-stroke ATV motors borrowed heavily from MX-er Technology, some more than others. After all, the KXT 250 A & B engines, aside from a few differences, were straight out of the KX 250s. So I don't think it unreasonable to say the LT500 motor borrowed heavily from RM500 Technology.

:-D

[MR ATC]

Hey Mr ATC....

What was the last year of the RM500? Do you even know? Well guess what....it was freaking 1984!

In fact please go to this site...actually anyone who goes and reads this thread please visit this site and find for me a liquid cooled RM 500:

http://www.georgiaoffroad.com/dbindex.phtml?brand=Suzuki&modelletters=RM

The RM 500 was produced in 1983 and 1984. 1984 was the last year it was made and it was air cooled both years.

Now please MR. ATC...I am finished with you...on this thread...we can get into it later on another issue...but you have lost this battle.

If we get more people who have actually ridden a Quadzilla they will attest to its power....but if we have a bunch of dreamers like you then....we will never get the truth only a bunch of confused facts and fantasies.

No offense....and as always take care and am done with you here!


looks like the score went up 8-1 ...lol. do you need some help removing your foot from your mouth Darius :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
so once again you have been PROVEN wrong (thanks Billy & Jeb) . you see while you limit your MX bike knowledge to American only models there are severall european models that never make it over here and you'r magazines you place so much weight in for "facts" don't always talk about those models and why is that? because the manufactures that PAY their salaries don't want them to discuse what we are missing out on. this is how the magazines play a part in the outcome of what we ride. were were they when 3 wheelers were being attacked? they tucked tail and ran and just prometed golf carts.

and i said it before and i'll say it again i've riden stock and built modified lt500's just not impressive to me for power.


How is your 400F arguments coming along? got any yet...lol

p.s. your are done Darius...well done you got toasted here

[Billy Golightly]

I personally witnessed in the summer of '00, an LT500 Quadzilla with a shiny nickel plated pipe get beat in a drag race 4 out of 4 times by a new stock Polaris Scrambler 500. It was heartbreaking. :(

I like to bring that up to rib quadzilla guys, :-D it is truth, but there's a reason why: the quadzilla wasn't healthy! it had some motor problems. It was getting taken off the line and was coughing and sputtering and then it crapped out in a 5th drag race. That's my only experience with a Quadzilla.

As for the RM500 debate, Seems like I remember Suzuki having a European Works liquid cooled rm500. I have no photographic proof right now and could be wrong. I'd have to go back through some of my early 80's dirt bike mags. There were all kinds of one-off un-obtainable "works" rides back in the day. And there's always been a different market across the pond with some unusual bikes produced that were not available here. I would say that if the LT500 motor has a counter-balancer, then it would have to be classified as an ATV engine, just like the ATC & TRX 250R motor and the KXF 250 Tecate-4 Motor. Its obvious all the 250 2-stroke ATV motors borrowed heavily from MX-er Technology, some more than others. After all, the KXT 250 A & B engines, aside from a few differences, were straight out of the KX 250s. So I don't think it unreasonable to say the LT500 motor borrowed heavily from RM500 Technology.

:-D


Yes Jeb, Thats how I remember it too. Some sort Euro bike or something that the LT500 came from. Maybe it was a dual sport, I can't remember for sure.

[TimSr]

i dunno, MR ATC i have not seen you post one shred of evidence. you can both argue but if i were judging the debate i would sway to darius. i agree the trx250 is a better machine then the lt500 but that is only opinion

I gotta agree, MrATC. While I agree with your position that the 250R is superior, I base it on never having seen it proved otherwise. I too, am not able to back up my opinion with facts, numbers or statistics. If I were judging this debate, you're losing this debate badly! These are some debate 101 tactics to indicate to your opponent you are out of ammo:

1. Stray off topic and argue irrelevant details, instead of the main point. (like who made the first or what year)

2. Alter your opponents statements or take them out of context to make a statement appear to mean something is doesnt. (quotes mean somebody else said it)

3. Add conditions to an obvious point, in order to make a correct answer wrong after the fact. (unreleased prototypes, or custom builds for factory race teams are not normally considered products "produced". If you go that route, everyone is wrong, because Id argue every "first" was likely built in somebody's garage or barn and never documented.)

4. Results in professional competitions have no relevance to comparisons of stock production machines. Honda is known for a marketing strategy that focuses on competition, but I doubt anyone really believes that the pros are racing the same machines Joe Average is looking to buy on the dealer's showroom floor. Most are barely recognizeable.

Admit its only your personal preference and back out while you still have any dignity, man!!!!

[Darius1502]

Mr. ATC,

You only wish I got toasted. The fact there was an 1985 or 1986 RM does not prove anything. You are the one who calls youself the 'walking service manual'. I only call myself by my name...not an expert just someone who was new to the board, enjoys 3 wheelers, and wanted to contribute and share.

Regardless of the discovery of an 85 and 86 RM: The motors are still not the same...the LT500 has a counterbalancer, is liquid cooled, has 499.5cc and not 492cc, does not have a boost bottle, etc, etc. Could they have derived similar technology from the RM...yes! Do companies do that yes! But your comment was that it was the SAME MOTOR. I only was trying to clarify this issue...and you turned it into this.

the only things we have learned is that Suzuki made 100 RM500's one year after I thought....and some in Europe the following year.

Now excuse me for having a good memory but the whole point of this discussion was your silly comment about the motor being the same. You still have not proven me wrong...but have only kept avoiding the issue that is on the table. Oh..and you also try to set out other issues as well to muddy the waters. For example, I never said the YZ 400F was the fastest or even that is revolutionary. I merely said that is was a fast bike that had an impact on motocross.

Quite simply, the fact that it was the only 4 stroke legitimately compete in supercross and win Doug Henry a Championship is a big deal. Also technically the motor has alot advanced features. Such as a short stroke piston, and a piston with its skirt cut off to improve the ability of the piston to change direction (ie., less weight)..the list goes on.

Of course if we look at it the way you do then there has been no new technology in the off road field for years. Everything is just borrowed technology. I might buy that argument ....but I think when a manufactuer puts technology to a new use and uses it to enter a field that (for the most part) has been dominated by one type of bike...its exciting. The YZ400F was a exciting addition to the 1997 Supercross events and is an exciting bike.

People loved to hear that 4 stroke rumbling past the two stokes...and yes Doug Henry did win races on it.

Lastly, I won't argue anymore about Quadzilla. Please go and post your nonsense on any board that actually has people with more experience regarding these quads and make you arguments there. Please tell them that you 250R is faster, etc., etc....you will get laughed off!

Now I have been very respectful to you and treated you like a gentleman. I have made legitimate attempts to explain myself and keep the debate within the framework of the original topic.

You however have made derrogatory comments toward me and have used every type of trick, strawman, and red herring technique to divert the issue. I will remain respectful...but do not wish to go over the same silly issues and get no resolution.

Enjoy your bikes, have fun...and next time try to do the research yourself.

Peace!

[Darius1502]

Tim,

Thanks for the 3rd party analysis. I think MR. ATC has great knowledge and I would love to learn from him.

I just think we are two guys that love our bikes and get emotional about them and that's why the arguments strayed a bit.

I think it was fun and I learned more than I knew when I started. I look forward to learning from everyone on this board and hopefully imparting some of my knowledge as well.

Bravo!

[MR ATC]

[quote="Darius1502"]Alright...MR ATC...please:

1) Show me the liquid cooled bike that Suzuki produced before the LT500R?

2) Admit that the motor found in the RM 500 is not the same as the LT 500 or you will be proven wrong

5) Dont make crazy arguments like the CR125 argument. The YZ400 and its later verisons are very special bikes that set the 2 wheeler world upside down. Yes...Honda makes a CR450F for you Honda loyalists. These bikes will hands down beat an open class bike (yes even your ATC 250R and my LT500 on a tight track)...its a non issue and anyone who rides dirt bikes would laugh at the fact we are even debating this.

6) Go have beer for me....we have worked to hard on this debate!

Peace man!! Whew!!![/quote


Tim i do beleive you have some re-reading to do someone else "strayed" off the subject before me. once again i just defended my position and won my arguement

Darious later questiond my MX knowledge like i did not know what i was talking about...again defense...again proving my point.

now i have given him plenty of opertunity to prove there was not one
he has not done anything but post a pic of a 84.

severall people have backed up my claimes with websites even showing evidence of later 500's

what and how has he won this debate? what has he proven me wrong on?


now the argument started out about a 250R vs. 500lt

his claim was the 500lt was a powerhouse and one of the best
i claimed it was not and was basically a RM 500 which is a dog by 500 standards. he then brought in my "lack" of MX knowledge and the YZ400.


so Tim other then my not so perfect debating rule following how exactly have i lost?

i have to say Tim i was looking forword to your post. you disapointed me this time. you can do better then that.

[MR ATC]

Tim,

Thanks for the 3rd party analysis. I think MR. ATC has great knowledge and I would love to learn from him.

I just think we are two guys that love our bikes and get emotional about them and that's why the arguments strayed a bit.

I think it was fun and I learned more than I knew when I started. I look forward to learning from everyone on this board and hopefully imparting some of my knowledge as well.

Bravo!


Never Take anything i say personally its all good bench racing to me. i laugh my trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro off with all this debates.

[TimSr]

I was laughing for a while at this one too! I had to go back to the beginning to try any figure out exactly what pionts were trying to be made!


MrATC,
In your own words, "his claim was the 500lt was a powerhouse and one of the best
i claimed it was not and was basically a RM 500 which is a dog by 500 standards" and I would agree this was the actual point of contention.

Here is my debate analysis.

Darius made this point - [The ATC250R makes about 36 HP compared to the power valved motor of the Suzuki which made 53 HP in 87 and 51 HP in '88, '89' and '90. Guys...I am done with the raw power issue here....just drop it ] - rewording it a few times but maintaining the same point. It was a good factual point, which I have no idea if its correct or not, but you were never able to dispute this factual point. You answered it by claiming it was an RM motor, and that RM motors were substandard. With the crux of your argument based on that point, you offered nothing to convince me that it was an RM motor, or that even if it was one, that the RM motor was underpowered. The YZ argument was a red herring on both parts. I believe the point Darius was trying to make was that large engines dont achieve their potential on small tight tracks. I would have argued that gearing down would even the odds if it were a motor issue, but for the fact that tighter tracks have more corners and jumps where the 250R's superior handling comes into play, and not the smaller motor size. I also would also have questioned the horsepower statistics. Im no HP expert, but I do know that, especially 2 strokes, deliver different amounts of HP at different RPM's and that max HP at one point in that powerband doesnt necessary mean the quickest machine overall, and that your power needs to be put to practical use in order to be beneficial. I would also have pointed out that some of that "extra" HP is being used up by the LT's extra weight. Then Darius produced a picture, and pointed out some differences between the RM motor and the LT motor, that made a pretty good case that it was NOT the same motor. To argue that they simply added a counterbalancer, liquid cooling, changed the porting and a bigger bore on the RM motor, is to say that the 250R motor is the same as an Elsinore motor, so I never saw a real challenge to that point.

I think a better case could have been made by focusing on the 250R's superior handling, agility, and awesome practical, useable, power, and focusing the argument against the Zilla for lacking these qualities, and being in serious need of Jenny Craig. However, I am not in this debate, and dont wish to be! Ill let you guys entertain me some more!

[Jeb]

Wow, at the time I posted this there were 5 pages concerning this post and 82 replies. I can't remember one going this far. Is that a record for here????

[TimSr]

It probably is Jeb! Usually these debates turn into nasty name calling personal attacks, and end up getting locked. Its refreshing to see mature adults have a lengthy debate and remain respectful in the process.

[MR ATC]

Tim, glad to see you joining in... :D lets clear some things up. I never said the lt500 was based on a 1984 RM 500. so Darious posting a picture of a 1984 RM 500 proves nothing other then the 1984 RM 500 was not the same as a lt 500. so he has offerd no proof as to there Not being a newer RM 500. He also said the 1984 RM 500 was the last year of the RM 500. he was proven wrong on that. we now know there was a 85/86 versions and maybe newer up to 88. so Darios HAS NOT PROVED his position.

as to your referance to the 250R and the Elsinore...well i'm glad you mentioned that. lets look at the ATC 250R and the CR 250R now i would be willing to bet that you and Darious would say they are differant motors, but you would both be partally wrong. Yes the CR has a power valve yes the ATC has a counter balancer. Yes the CR is 5 speed and the ATC is 6-speed. however none of that is the actual motor just accesories and or tranny. the cranks,pistons,rings,gaskets,carbs,pipes,cylinders ,intake system, are all interchangeable and the powervalve can be adapted to a ATC and the counter balancer can be removed. you can even interchange the ignition system. want lights on your CR use ATC. want MX curve ignition us CR on ATC. and this goes up to 2001. therfore the base motor is the same.

so now since it is possible that the 250R and CR 250 while being slightly different but also the same MOTOR exist, is it not possible that the RM 500 later versions (85-88?) (that the proponent of the anti RM 500 side claimed did not exist), is it not possible that the lt 500 is not really a altered RM 500 motor just set in differant lower cases like the ATC/CR 250.

remember HONDA has twice the budget Suzuki has so what makes you think Suzuki would build a entirelly different motor for there 500lt when they had the technology already in there hands.

[TimSr]

"the most powerfull 2 stroke motor ever mass produced was the 1986 CR 500 the least powefull 500 two stroke motor mass produced was the suzuki RM 500, the same motor in the LT 500 but detuned. "

Okay MrATC, let me see if Ive got this straight. You are really hard for me to follow. Is it your position, then, that when you made this statement, you were not referring to RM500's that we all saw at the dealership, but rather you meant that the LT motor was copied from some later year model RM500 that was extremly rare, and most of us never heard of, but you were fully aware of? Are you also stating that your proof of this is that Darius was unable to prove they did not exist? Was this European version RM that is the same motor on the LT the least powerful 500 produced, or was it the RM 500's produced for the US that we are familiar with that were the least powerful? If the 84 RM is not the same motor as the LT, as you have stated, but the European one some unknown later year is, then which one were you referring to as being the least powerful?

Now this is why I said I felt Darius won the debate. It looks to me like you made the beginning statement above based on a general opinion of Suzuki, and not on any real facts that you were aware of. When you were challenged on the statement, instead of admitting that it was just your opinion of the LT, you started arguing theories and possibilities as fact. It also looks to the observer like you picked up and adopted the "European later version" theory along the way. Simultaneously you were stretching the defination of "same motor" to proportions way beyond what most of us would consider the same motor in order to make your innaccurate statement true. To me it just looks like you made an off hand remark towards the LT, that you seem to be clinging to at all costs to the point where its really starting to look sad, rather than admitting you may have made a statement that was wr...g. I wont subject you to that profain word! Your answer seems to continue to be "yeah but TECHNICALLY Im right because ...." Ill be the first to say I didnt know a whole lot about LT500 other than of what Id seen, and I wasnt impressed, nor still am I convinced, but I will say that after following this thread as best I can, and keeping an open mind towards both points of view, I am of the belief that the LT500 is not an RM motor simply based on this debate. You have some good theories that are entirely possible, but have shown no evidence to make me think they are anything beyond a guess. Now if you can tell me a year and model, and where in the world they are located, that are a lot more similar to the LT500 I could be swayed. :D

[MR ATC]

Tim, i will agree to the fact i have not produced any facts. i stated earllier in this thread my evidence was destroyed. when others statrted posting evidence it just backed up my statements. thats why i used them as a refrence. I am not the only one to believe the lt 500 was based on a RM 500. like i said before Darius ONLY argument was that the LAST year RM 500 was an 84 and it was not like the LT500. he has been proven wrong about that. Darious has not proved his point. Have I NO. but darious was proven wrong. not once have i been proven wrong in this debate. so again i ask you how has he won???

[200x Basket]

:D you are a long winded old fart :D glad ya'll kept it clean. this is better then the old tecate vs. 250r debate :shock:

[KASEY]

hmmm here is a pict of a 1985 rm 500 its still not watercooled or blue,

well the link won't work http://www.chez.com/peg781/story_rm_500.htm

[wanta250r]

A water cooled motor can still be derived from an air cooled motor. They could have changed the rm motor to a watercooled motor and painted the damn thing blue. x

[KASEY]

i was merely pointing out that there was a 1985 rm 500 it might not have been imported to the states but there was one ,,,,,,,,,,

[Derek]

quadzillas blow 250r's out of the water they where the fastest producton quads ever made there insane!

[jsimonh]

Holy crap:eek: ! This thread is almost 4 years old:lol: :lol: . Way to pull it from the grave Derek:D .

[MisterFurious]

I can't believe I read that whole thread.

[jason85atc250r]

did i say it was a production 1984 RM 500??? noooooooooo!

now we all know your just trying to take to focus off you because i'm still waiting for those Major techno advances the YZ400 brought us.

oh did you know that in 98? that a Honda 350X motor in a 250R chassie won the 4 stroke open championship golf cart class. did you also know at the begining of the year everyone's bets were on one of 2 YZ 400F powered 250R chassied ( they had to use a Honda chassie because the banshee is so great lol) golf carts. some advancement! a 16yr old air cooled 4 valve Honda 4 stroke 350 beat the mighty powerful and super liquid cooled 5 valve Yamaha 400. inovative my *Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited*...keep trying i'll let you wait on the RM 500 Some more since thats all you've got right now. i've whooped your *Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited* on all the other debates... :D :D :D


for anyone that cares anymore:lol:

i heard you could specail order a rm 250 with a zilla motor the years they were made.

the thing in 98 was correct about a 350x enigne winning the national open 4 stroke class. it was a TC racing motor punched out to a 475cc. they put out aroung 50 + horsepower.

[Maico]

1. Swap the 'R for the 'Zilla?? In a heart beat. I've owned both..several years of both. The 'Zilla will top the 'R in top speed every time. Way more power period. The 'R is way easier to handle in the slow,tight stuff by far though.

2. The RM 500 the same motor as the 'Zilla ?? No. Period.

[jason85atc250r]

you could do the specail order rm500 thing from 87-90 the years zilla's were made

[Maico]

2 the best of my knowledge... '85 was the last year for the RM 500 and it was air cooled. The 80,125 and 250 of '85 were L/C but the 500 remained air cooled.

[jason85atc250r]

it was a special order only option for the 87-90 rm500 it was a rm250 with a zilla motor stuffed in it. they did not just make one and sell it at the dealer. most dealer did not want to mess with it thats why you dont see many. you went in there and said get me this if the dealer would order it.