185s motor swap, 5x4 project?

[mattcruff]

yea i got me an old 83 atc185s for 40 dollars. guy said it didint run, got home, 10 mins later i was out riding, i rode it so much i tore up the little 185, i got a 83 atc200e motor with electric start on the way. shouldnt be too hard to wire up or get it in the frame . . . .i hope.

Wouldnt mind adding another axle on the back and making it a 5x4 like the old john deere gator trikes. Anyone ever attemted either of these projects? any comments?

[cr480r]

good luck trying to turn...

[mattcruff]

that could be a problem. . . i really havent put much thought into that.

i wonder how they got the old gators to turn. . .

[cr480r]

the axles probably had differentials

[mattcruff]

im sure they did since they were a deere

okay so forget the 5x4 idea for now. . .i might get some new axles and put them in later on. . .

but for now i have an old 185 and im bout to attempt to put in this motor

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140286313185&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&viewitem=

i think the 200e's had hi and low. . .

anyone remember how you operated that?

[cajun66]

Too bad there isn't a way you could let the rear axle articulate. Kind of like a Gamma Goat.

[Name Brand]

Since the first axle is fixed to the frame... put the second axle on a swingarm. I'm trying to picture it with a little flatbed too.

I've always pondered a tag axle with small tires on it behind the normal rear tires. I'd wrap a snowmachine track around both to have a sort of halftrack. The tag axle could be swung off the ground so only the track at the base of the main tires was on the ground; for riding normal, hard trail. Swing the tag axle to the ground for riding in mud, marsh, snow...

[mattcruff]

thats kind of what i was thinking, take a look at this 5 wheel gator
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zvlIAZamEZg/R-1ZworLnMI/AAAAAAAADak/XE7LHOJG9pU/gator_deems_ds.jpg

[83ATC185S]

why do you want to put extra weight on the little 185 motor? seems like more trouble than its worth

[mattcruff]

its actually about to have a 200e motor, but your probably right, i just think it would be bad ass

[Vealmonkey]

Let's see, you bought a 185 and "tore" the engine up in less than a day. And instead of rebuilding your "tore" up engine, you are going to buy another unknown engine off ebay. Are you planning to tear that engine up too? Now you want to add an extra axle onto your 185/200 hybrid. Are you planning on tearing that up too? Why don't you put your skills to work fixing up the 185 engine and fixing the trike up? You don't really describe what you did to tear the engine up. Is it just the clutch? Did you run the engine without oil? Did you not change the oil or clean the filter screen before you ran the trike around? I would like to hear more about how you "tore" up the 185 in the first place. I'm not quite sure what you did to the trike, but you should really work on learning better maintenance techniqes and rebuild what you have before you try and embark on such an ambitious project. I welcome you to the board, but I hope you would take a little bit better care of your trike. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Nick_R_23]

The 200e engine will not fit in a 185s frame!! The frame downtube doesnt have the 'dimple' or cutout the 200e frame does to clear the electric starter. The 200e engine also has Hi/Lo which will not let it fit in the 185s frame.

-Nick :TrikesOwn

[mattcruff]

nice to know how you feel. . .

the 185s motor simply locks up when it warms, let it cool and it will run a little while. easy fix, i have a second 185 frame the guy threw in with good tires,but the gas tank is rusted, and no fenders, all wiring on it though. so i plan on putting the old engine on it and restoring it, but this current one will be my toy. and i will be making some adjustments to the frame to accept the new motor.

[Custom200]

That is true. trying to add another axle to a 185 or 200e motor wouldn't be a great rig I would think. The 185/200 size hardtail trikes were gret work rigs and could go almost every place you could want to go. If you looking for the bed part fab up a little trailer and postion the axle on the towable trailer so the majority of the weight is on the trike for more traction. Thats how the old man pulled wood for years and it worked great on the old 200m.The trikes worked great and it's best to leave well enough alone.

[mattcruff]

im pretty sure im going to throw out the second axle idea, as cool as i think it would look its just not to practical, and its so light i dont think i will get stuck, i just thought it would look cool, but since no one else thinks so ill just throw that one out.

[Custom200]

I'm not putting it down. would be cool to tackle but not the most practicle or best spent money. A project like that becomes a money pit real fast. lol.

[oscarmayer]

sounds like the piston is shot and the sidewalls are trasked. you coudl just get a good top end and drop it on the 185 and your set. you can also get a stock 200cc piston and have your 185 jug bored to the 200 piston side and it will work great. 185 and 200 were the same jug just different bores. if you do fix yours go with a 200x piston and get a 200x cam too. you need to check your head out and inspect the cam journals. you could have ran the motor out of oil and caused it to damage itself. if that's the case your talking new tope end completely.

anyway, yea the extra axel is not a good idea, but fixing your motor IS. your only going ot have to spend like
$60 bore/hone
$65 stock 200x piston
$55 good head off ebay
$40 new versei (sp?) valves off ebay (i always replace the valves because they are usually trash if they are the origionals)
$28 top end kit for a 200s
$18 for a 200s carb rebuild kit (has the same parts as your 185 but bigger jets needed fo the bigger bore)

next go to the auto parts store and pick up a gallon of "purple power" or "purple Stuff" delute 50/50 with water in a 2 gallon bucket and drop in all parts you take off the triek and are goign to reuse. let them sit in the cleaner for like 5-7 hours. then get a scrub brush and clean anything left. make sure you wear gloves as that stuff is biodegradeable but very nasty on the hands. get a tube of molley engine assemble at the auto store and 3 rolls of blue shop towels and a box of gloves and 4 cans of cheapo carb cleaner and finally 2 tube of "black" high temp silicone. that shoudl be all you need to rebuild the top end completely assuming you have all the tools and a torque wrench.

[mattcruff]

just tore apart the 185 block. piston rings were fried. cylinder is scarred up. but still is pretty free when its cool. i have a old sand blaster and parts cleaner here in my shop, so ill have the old one looking brand new. i just really wanted the electric start for this trike. theres a goki kit but its like $275, and i got the whole 200e motor for that price.

[mattcruff]

and if anyone has a electric starter for my 185 block that would be pretty sweet. . .

[daniel_250r]

take the top end off the 200 and put it on the 185

[daniel_250r]

oops probably different stroke

[mattcruff]

im putting the 200 in a frame already and rebuilding the 185 for my other frame. . .

[Vealmonkey]

Now you are starting to make more sense. The only real problem I see is, the 200 engine is a unknown commodity. The 200 might only have about 15 minutes of run time in it. Then you would be stuck with 2 non running trikes. It might seem cheaper to just get the 200 engine, but if it doesn't last, then it's no bargain. Rebuild the 185, and you know what it has in it and how much time that is on it. You could probably get away with a top end rebuild only, just make sure you check the play in your connecting rod when the top end is off, but it might be good to go ahead and check the bottom end out a little more thoroughly while you have the topend off. And please don't use the black silicone gasket maker, buy a proper set of gaskets. If any of that silicone stuff gets sucked up into the oil pump, you'll starve the engine for oil and trash the top end again. Take the time and do it right the first time. When you get the trike all cleaned up and back together, you'll be alot more proud of the fact that you did it yourself. It doesn't matter if you spray paint your frame with can paint, you'll be alot happier with the end result. You sound like your relatively mechanical, so you should know the right way from the wrong way of how to do things. Take the extra time and spend a little more cash and it will pay off in the end. As for more traction, there are other tire options other than stock and people even went as far as running 2 tires per side for extra traction. You have to remember, that you are only talking 12 to 15 hp for the stock engine, so you have to watch your weight. Aluminum rims save weight so that would be a good bet. And if you start modding the engine out too much, you will lessen it's reliability to a certain point. If you are looking for more power, you should look into a bigger trike. It will cost extra for the
200x cam and a higher compression piston and then you have to start worrying about what kind of gas you are going to run and then you have to remember the 185 is a pull start engine, so you will want to make sure you have a head that has the compression release on it to help make the trike easier to start. It's all about cause and effect. I think it's best sometimes that your first rebuilt engine isn't too radical since the first engine is a big learning engine. Also if it isn't too radical it's a little easier to have it running real nice in a relatively short period of time. The best of luck with whatever you decide.

[Blown 331]

Anyone ever try to remove the rear most axle and bed from the old gators and make a John Deere 3-wheeler? lol.

[Vealmonkey]

If I remember correctly, John Deere made a 3 wheeler.

[oscarmayer]

veal, i never said to use it as gasket maker. i posted to order a top end gasket set. i use dth gasket maker to help seal the gaskets as once you properly clean the old gaskets off you are usually left with pitting and some slight scaring. the gasket maker in a very thin layer to just fill in the gaps is a good thing betweek the gasket and parts.

i agree it is not a replacement for a gasket, jsut a filler for sealing better.

[Blown 331]

The only place I use gasket maker / silicone on a 185/200 is the top rocker cover since that it what it had factory, I use it no where else at all, but that's just me. Same with auto applications, I almost never put sealer on gaskets.

[Vealmonkey]

Okay, that's cool. I just didn't want to see someone make a big and expensive mistake. Whenever I see the words silicone and gasket in the same sentence, I get a little worried. I've made that mistake along time ago myself. I'm sure you know that there are better products to do exactly what you are suggesting that aren't the silicon gasket maker stuff. I use yamabond 4 myself. Others use the hondabond I think it's called and there is a similar product put out by form a gasket and a bunch of other companies. I've just taken so many engines apart with the silicone "gasket" maker in them that it is just a bad word to me.

[mattcruff]

yeah the old 185 has no gaskets on the cylinder or head. . .just silicone, and lots of it. but it did have a gasket on the clutch cover.

[Dirtcrasher]

Okay, that's cool. I just didn't want to see someone make a big and expensive mistake. Whenever I see the words silicone and gasket in the same sentence, I get a little worried. I've made that mistake along time ago myself. I'm sure you know that there are better products to do exactly what you are suggesting that aren't the silicon gasket maker stuff. I use yamabond 4 myself. Others use the hondabond I think it's called and there is a similar product put out by form a gasket and a bunch of other companies. I've just taken so many engines apart with the silicone "gasket" maker in them that it is just a bad word to me.

One of the biggest problems I see is people using it on the rocker arm cover on the 185/200 style heads and blocking the oil gallerys....

You have to be super careful with these 4 stroke heads. There is a rubber plug on the 200X/XR200 heads that without it, the oil doesn't go where it is supposed to.

It's a shame but we get stuck with other peoples repairs. And that usually involved screwdrivers and pry marks, thats where the leaks come from.

I have great success with a thin coat of grease on new gaskets as LONG AS the mating surfaces are in good shape. If I see a divot, I just use a dab of Yamabond in that area.

People that reuse gaskets and silicone the hell out of them are just asking for problems.

It's best to buy a "complete" gasket kit, thats the way to go. My local dealer wanted 22$ for a 350X clutch cover gasket and 28$ for a 200X head gasket, if thats what other people are running into, I understand why they are reusing gaskets!

I've had great success with the Vesrah kits, they come very complete!! Crush washers, valve seals, some orings etc etc

[oscarmayer]

that's cool guys. yea i need to clearify better.
yea i "only" use it to help take the imperfections out when some of the old parts are rusty or pitted.

what do you guys do to take the old gaskets off w/o damaging the surfaces?

[Nick_R_23]

I take a large single blade fold out knife and put the blade against the grinder to make a flat spot about an inch or so long, then put the blade on the belt sander and make it really sharp, flip it over and do it to the other side, so I have a straight, sharp blade. That way I can use it as a scraper to get the big chunks of gasket off, then hold it perpendicular to the mating surface and run it along with just enough pressure to take the gasket material off. Theyve always come out perfect and Ive never had any material left over or leaking cases.

-Nick :TrikesOwn

[mattcruff]

they say if you LIGHTLY tap the gasket with something like a hammer it will loose'n the seal the gasket has made and it scrapes off easier. remember with aluminum blocks you cannot tap them too hard.

[oscarmayer]

i know this wprks on bogger surfaces liek a car, but i wouldn't dare think of takkign o the case sides as they are so thin it would probebly dent before loosening. hehe

[Name Brand]

what do you guys do to take the old gaskets off w/o damaging the surfaces?


Non-metallic scraper. Take a small piece of plexiglass (scraper for skis is ideal), cut or grind the edge the same way a wood chisel looks. If you want to get fancy you can add some wood sides to the end of it for a handle. Works great for removing all sorts of gunky stuff from aluminum. I use this type of tool alot on Blackhawks...