need HELP! tecate head gasket... pics of 2nd bad gasket and mating surfaces

[2quicktecate]

my gasket seal for a few hours and then started blowing compression in the cooling system here's some pics of the cometic gasket the head and the jug. i think the machine shop's shitty belt sander mill has to ddep of scratches and thats where it's blowing passed.. what do you guys think. any help would be greatly appreciated.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/DSC01855.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/DSC01856.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/DSC01859.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/DSC01860.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/DSC01861.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/DSC01862.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/DSC01863.jpg

[Twilight]

Its definitely the head man, those scratches look bad.

When I did the top end of my FL400 pilot, I used a SMALL amount of copper spray to help seal, has held up so far with 11 hours on the top end. You can also finding one thats thicker.

[dcreel]

Do you leak water out of the overflow? I am having the same problem with my 85. I put a new oem head gasket on it, and the head isn't leaking outside of the cylinder anymore. But as soon as I start it, it just pours out of the radiator overflow. The gasket was correctly put in, and torqued correctly. It's fast as hell with the water leak. I can't even imagine if I can get this thing running correctly.
kx250 ported cylinder, boyesen reeds, reed spacer, 41mm Mikuni flat slide. DG pipe and silencer, motoplat ignition.
How would you clean a radiator out? How do you check the radiator impeller to see if it is working?

[Twilight]

dc reel- are you sure its not upside down?

to check the impeller, i take the tube off and pour water into it, if it comes into the radiator, it works?

To clean, I would get some flushing fluid like what cars use.

[dcreel]

I'm 99% positive its in correctly. It was an oem so it had the up on it, and I also used the OEM manual. How is the water going to go uphill to the radiator? Are you talking about while it is running? Which hose do you pour into, the one going to the water pump or head?
Thank you,

Sorry about the hijack 2quicktecate

[Twilight]

one going into the water pump, and if anything, unplug the hose that goes out of the radiator too and just watch the water come out.

should be fine if you run it only for a few minutes. Also, sounds like the water is being blocked, flush the radiators while you have the hoses unplugged and run straight up water from the hose through them and see if it all flows in and out with no issues.

[2quicktecate]

mine leaks out of the overflow. it sealed for an hour or, and then started blowing water out the overflow. it's definately getting compression through the ring on the gasket. you can see it, the black lines from the deep scratches. i had a thick piece of glass and resurfecad the head a few minutes ago i went all the way up to 2000 grit. its smooth and flat now. i bought a cometic gasket last time, should i go with oem? the oem sealing ring is twice as thick. if you run my bike with the coolant cap off you can see the bubbles and if you plug the hole with your thumb you can feel and here the pressure build up right away. i'm pissed about that shop they just scratched up the head with 10 grit and promised it would seal. i think i got it this time though. hey, dcreel, i need a bigger carb and don't know what to get, is there something oem off a newer bike that will increase the performance off my bike? i have a stock carb ported and jetted to the moon.

[dcreel]

I'm a huge fan of Mikuni flat slide carbs. I have a few stock Mikuni Tecate carbs laying around. You did say yours was ported to 41mm right?

[2quicktecate]

i dont know, it looks small. thought it was a 34mm

[nd4speed]

Isn't the head gasket supposed to melt to create the proper seal?

Only time I had head gasket problems on my old machines is when I used torque specs from a manual. I went back to over tightening them by feel and all was good again. Torque wrenches are over-rated unless the parts are like new IMO.

Wow, I guess that sleeve is a little lower. Most would say that is your problem. I would have the cylinder decked if the problem continues after changing the head and gasket.

The cylinder head I sold you worked well. Who ever did the porting probably cut it too.

[2quicktecate]

yeah i wish i would have left that head on there, it had a oem gasket in it too. thats what i'm gonna try this time. if that dont work i guess i'll have the top of the jug lighty milled, and try a stock head so my compression isn't too high.

[2quicktecate]

i hope you don't think i'm complaining to you about this... i feel i got a great deal on this top end from you, i'm just working the bugs out of a home built budget motor that eats banshee's.

[2quicktecate]

what if i get the top of the jug cut to be even with the sleeve and double the cyl. base gaskets? that should be ok i think...

[DeePa]

half-ass fix IMO

[Dirtcrasher]

The sleeve looks way too low to me!

Not sure how to fix that correctly at this point (easily) but it's wrong.

[2quicktecate]

we'll see if this oem gasket seals. if not i'll get the top of the jug surfaced, and see what happens, it isn't gonna change the hieght of the sleeve so it will be ok i will just use a stock head thats not cut to keep the compression down. maybe even do the double base gasket trick, sounds half ass but it will work...

[tecat-z]

You have to git both sleeve and "cylinder casing" since it's been sleeved, the exact same height. The fire ring can't properly do it's job at sealing up cylinder so it absolutely will blow into cooling system and pressurize. Just another example of the grief that sleeves cause when careless people install them. So many people just on 3ww have had probs with sleeves. Gonna have to get deck trimmed minimally, and then really the head needs to be adjusted volume wise. It to looks a bit beat. It all adds up to HP.

[3or4wheels]

The head looks OK but the gasket looks cheep.You need one with a better crushable sealing ring.I'd go with OEM,then if that do'nt work its one less thing out of the equation.Make sure you torque the head down in steps,i.e if your torque for the head 30,start with 10,then go to 20 and then finish with your required 30,always criss crossing the head bolts.Good luck and keep us posted.

[2quicktecate]

thanks for all the replys. the aftermarket gaskets seem to have a smaller sealing ring. and the guy i bought the cyl. from had no probs with a oem gasket. i will try the oem gasket i order before i pull the cyl. and have it decked. i believe the final torque is 18 ft. lbs. but seems kinda light to me, the first gasket i blew was torqued to 20 and it leaked off the get go. the cometic i torqued to 30 and lasted a little while. i'll keep you guys posted. also i installed a temp quage inline with the rad hose, what temp should this motor run at?

[dcreel]

I've got another kx cylinder thats sleeved and ported.

[2quicktecate]

what do you want for it?

[2quicktecate]

think i'm gonna sell the bassani pipe i have. it doesn't fit right with the dg silencer, so i'm just gonna keep the full dg exhaust. interested in the bassani?

[Dirtcrasher]

I deleted the recent last past to add some more thoughts.....

As posted:

Run your comments by this thought please.......

I'm thinking his sleeve is maybe .010 - .020 too low?? (I can't tell by the picture) the less the better but even a couple thousandths will continue to cause and create a gasket failure IMHO.

What if this were to be done:

Remove the studs and have the top of that cylinder cut flat to match the sleeve height - hopefully not much greater than .010 or ten thousandths or so.......
Then, resurface the head just a couple of thousandths to get it clean again and last, have the dome or "combustion chamber" cut to the same total amount of loss to create the same volume which was originally intended. Possibly it could even be a couple thousandths less than the overall relief which would add a bit to the compression.....

To me, that seems to be a solution that wouldn't compromise reliability....

OR?? I guess another jug with the proper sleeve and taking a few thousandths off that head would do the trick.

Whattchya think fellas??

Another thought and why I deleted and then re-posted my reply with more thoughts-

That Banshee I had got to pay for a backhoe repair I had done had a head that was scribed -.100 Thats appx 2.5MM that were shaved off of it.

According to the paperwork he received with the shaved head, they advised him to rejet, check the firing timing and run race gas.

If this cylinder needs .010-.030 (worst case - I've only seen a picture!) what is the problem with that??

I myself would NEVER want to run 2 head gaskets in a liquid cooled motor. I may not have a problem with adding a base gasket though?? And that gasket could be made thicker rather than doubled up because of it's "JOB" in an engine......

THOUGHTS?????????????????

[dcreel]

I'll post some pics of it

[2quicktecate]

i think your ideas are great, i'm still gonna try the oem gasket first, since the previous owner of this cyl. never had problems with the oem gasket. and the sleeve just barely sits lower the pic almost makes it look worse. .010 off the deck would be enough to level it with the sleeve.

[2quicktecate]

I'll post some pics of it

please do..

[dcreel]

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/dcreel/100_2128.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/dcreel/100_2129.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/dcreel/100_2130.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/dcreel/100_2131.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/dcreel/100_2132.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/dcreel/100_2133.jpg

This jug came with my 85 Tecate. I don't know the measurements. It looks good though. A little surface rust on the sleeve, very little.

[2quicktecate]

let me know what you want for it, a little hone job and she's be good as new. hopefully it's standard bore, cuz i have a new piston and rings on my shelf

[dcreel]

It also has a cylinder head, but the dome is in bad shape. I can throw it in too. I won't use it. Whats it worth? I got to go to work now, I'll get home about 3:30 am and check this.

[fabiodriven]

Just got in this thread (better late than never), that sleeve definately looks wrong to me. Looks like nothing but trouble.

Those scratches in the head look to me like they would cause some leakage.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- Ever since my first rebuild as a little kid I've always been taught to use OEM head gaskets. All the rest of the gaskets in the motor can be after market or RTV or whatever. Nobody makes an aftermarket head gasket that is up to snuff with OEM.

[dcreel]

How about your Bassani and cash on my end for the cylinder?

[2quicktecate]

How about your Bassani and cash on my end for the cylinder?

sure that cyl. and 30 cash to cover shipping on my end let me know...

[2quicktecate]

think i may have just sold the pipe... please im me what you want for the cyl...

[sblt500r]

the sleeve looks like it was installed wrong. its to low. it should be even with the top of the cylinder. do the ports line up?

you would need to have the studs removed and have the cylinder decked to be even with the sleeve. then the head should be cut , recesed so the piston doesn't hit. but also keeping the compression and dome angle correct.

putting a thicker or more base gaskets will change your port timing.

might just be easier to have another sleeve installed correctly! or get another cylinder.

when the cylinder is tightened down, does the sleeve move up, to be even with the top of the cylinder? i had an rm like that, where the sleeve would move!

i only readthe first page!! so i think this has been covered already!! lol

[2quicktecate]

the sleeve dont move, the port line up well, and if it's low the port timing would be off, so the spaced base gasket would probably correct it.. i don't know hopefully i get this other cyl.

[fabiodriven]

Hey 2quick, you're not stil looking for a stock flywheel are ya? I've still got one that is on one of my motors and I picked up another bottom end this weekend with a flywheel on it. Haven't yet pulled either one of them so I don't know the condition of either one...

[2quicktecate]

i already got a ricky on my trike

[scooterroo]

why do the coolant holes look so small on the gasket as opposed to the coolant ports on both the head and cylinder? maybe ristricting flow and causing enough pressure to make it leak? dont know, maybe im just tired and seeing things.

[DixiePlowboy]

Wow, some food for head gasket thought in this thread. I guess I've just been lucky up til this point in having whatever I used work. Come to think of it, I've never used a torque wrench on a wheeler or bike topend....so I've been real lucky.

2quick,

I'd be interested in the troublesome KX cylinder if you snag the other one. Just let me know.

[Dirtcrasher]

My god what a shitshow this has turned into.....

Use some silicone and tighten it with a 1/2 breaker bar about 2 feet long - problem solved :(

WTF good is OEM or Vesrah or Cometic if the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro i9s all on a different surface??

[2quicktecate]

the coolant holes are suppose to be like that. it's not getting hot a boiling the water, it was getting compression/combustion pressure in the coolant cause the overflow to spew constantly, i think i have it this time. you could totally see it leaking through the 10 grit scratches that the machine shop charged me to do, i know i wont go there again...

[fabiodriven]

WTF good is OEM or Vesrah or Cometic if the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro i9s all on a different surface??

I said there were other issues...:cry:

[Twilight]

Try a oem gasket or another aftermarket with some copper spray, torque down nice and tight and try it.

My pilot and 350 odyssey needed extra torque... just used hands and went in criss cross pattern

[2quicktecate]

should i use the copper spray on the oem gasket? where do i get the copper spray?

[nd4speed]

Permatex copper spray a gasket. I use it and buy it local auto store Autozone.

I use a short box end wrenches to over tighten things so I don't have too much leverage.

[2quicktecate]

ok, thanks.. i'll try it, or atleast check it out and see what i think!

[DeePa]

ok, thanks.. i'll try it, or atleast check it out and see what i think!

Get the sleeve fixed...aka resleeved correctly, or get another jug

if youre trying to be a cheap jew you shouldnt own a tecate

[2quicktecate]

Get the sleeve fixed...aka resleeved correctly, or get another jug

if youre trying to be a cheap jew you shouldnt own a tecate

i am cheap, and have another jug, just like changing head gaskets. what does your tecate look like....:pics:


here's mine....
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/DSC01839-1.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/DSC01838.jpg

[dcreel]

It looks awesome!

[2quicktecate]

thanks man

[nd4speed]

Soon I'll post video proof that top end was ok when I used it. Here is part 1 second part 2 should be up shortly. Second part has trike at very end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlPxOSoKOVo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47xxxn4XpdU

2quick your Tecate is everything I wish mine could have been.

[2quicktecate]

it'll seal this time, it needs an oem gasket.... i'm not doubting that it worked fine for you.

[oscarmayer]

when you guys work on your motors, do you get the head and block decked flat? that shoudl be part of any rebuild because it needs to be perfectly flat in order to proeprly seal w/o any issues. you coudl have a slightly warped head causing the problem.

[2quicktecate]

i had the head decked, i don't want to deck the cyl. and have the piston smack the head. i may deck the cyl. slightly and get a thicker base gasket, but that will change port timing. i also bought another cyl, so if this one doesn't seal i will try a different one..

[2quicktecate]

oem gasket and spray a gasket seemed to seal her up i torqued the head to 30 ft. lbs. and had the head re chambered to lower compresion. i guess we'll see how long she lasts this time

[2quicktecate]

i got me an water pumper R yesterday. she's a diamond in the rough
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/vwgli16vracer/250r.jpg

[cr480r]

That cylinder needs to be decked or resleeved... period... the sleeve should be flush or slightly proud or it will never seal properly... your port timing/deck height issue can be solved with a custom base gasket and/or a recessed combustion chamber... that head was already junk IMO... It needs to be re-chambered or else thrown away.. What bore size is that jug on? I would never use a head gasket or a head with a squish band that was smaller diameter than the bore size... tecate heads cannot be milled much before the before the squish band diameter diminishes and when combined with a oversized bore the squish becomes a nasty mess real quick...

[2quicktecate]

its fine this time. i had the head rechambered and used an oem gasket with copper spray. i havent rode it too much since i got my beater R. i'll keep you posted, oh its standard bore...