350x Frames

[The Goat]

Okay guys, been dabbling in Industrial Engineering lately at school...and they pointed out some simple metalurgical properties that could affect these frames.

Welding on a frame instantly creates weak points by heating the metal very quickly...and causing it cool very quickly.

Take an average frame...heat it up to 800 degrees...and then slowly bring it back down, and you can completely change the way that frame absorbes stress.

Kinda makes me wonder if honda bothered to heat treat their frames post assembly... Not doing so would cause it to be brittle.

It also brings to mind the question wether all this outgassing during powdercoating, and the powdercoating itself, is changing the strong and weak points of these frames.

Any metal workers care to elaborate on this?


Seems like there's a magic number for rigidity and strength....

[The Goat]

come on now guys, 20 views and no ones got a thought?

same principle as when making a knife...heat it really really hot, cool it really really fast.

[SWIGIN]

no matter what you do a stock frame is paper thin (compaired to a chromoly frame) and it will fail.

PC is only cooked at 400 degrees so i dont think that realy amounts to anything

[daniel_250r]

i think its mainly metal fatigue that makes them crack just being jumped and have force on them after 20 some years they just fail

[The Goat]

no matter what you do a stock frame is paper thin (compaired to a chromoly frame) and it will fail.

PC is only cooked at 400 degrees so i dont think that realy amounts to anything

you've done some welding....apparently welding/cutting in cold weather can weaken metal even further.

we were discussing welding large metal tanks in class the other day...apparently this company welded on them during a period of below freezing weather...once the heated water was stored in them they failed...water was only 200 degrees. the tanks didn't fail until it was over 80 degrees outside.

it really doesn't take much.

my question is...what if you were to weld and guesset your frame...then bake it at a really high temp and slowly bring it back down.

the molecular structure of the steel would be in many more "blocks" than it would be before that baking.


my real question is...we go to all the trouble of welding gussets onto this frame...and in the process...after welding on them those points are considerably more rigid...but a hard impact will cause it to crack...rather than bend.... right? or am I reading too much into this...and what I'm talking about really is more useful in INDUSTRIAL applications.

[SWIGIN]

it would be far better to just build a new frame out of .083 chromeoly.....anything else is a band aid


and that tank had pressure in it .....its different but im not even getting into a engenering debate

[The Goat]

lol, not trying to debate buddy, and I know a couple of tons of water equates a buttload of pressure.

I was just asking about guys who do metal work...have they seen situations where things failed because of the fast heating and cooling...and is all of this welding on frames turning them into ticking time bombs.

A chromoly frame would be ideal...but people don't seem very interested in getting in a group buy.

3k is a bit steep...even for a rash guy like me. lol.

[daniel_250r]

3k for a 4130 cromo frame?

[SWIGIN]

well for one thing i dont quench my welds unless im welding sheet metal and im worried about warping it.

on stock frames (basicly sheet metal) i just weld part way around as not to over heat it then go to another spot till the first spot is cooled.

[SWIGIN]

3k for a 4130 cromo frame?

thats a little high but a dude on here had a deal if he got 3 or 4 guys to go in with him they were only $1080...thats a deal

[The Goat]

that's what was quoted on here the other day. that was with modifications to run the 450 rear...which presented a couple of problems.

it was 1k with the group buy.

[The Goat]

I'm down for 1K...and I'm down for 1K soon...I can't swing any more than that for 8 or 9 months.

[SWIGIN]

dont forget the $80 for shipping he said about...hence $1080

[The Goat]

lol...I was just rounding man...when you're talking a grand, 80 bucks ain't a whole lot.

[Billy Golightly]

I have seen this happen a bit before. Its typically why when you bend a frame or something you always bend it back cold and not with heat. Because everytime its heated, you spread the molecules further apart (atleast thats how its been described to me). I also try not to weld things in very cold weather for the same reasons you've mentioned. My dad has always preached that to me.


I do not know enough about the heat treating and tempering processes to really give or say anything more then just babble, but I do know that how quickly you make it cool back down, and how quickly and long it stays at a hot temperature has a direct effect on its hardness properties.

[The Goat]

thanks billy, I'm going to talk to the TA tomorrow and see what he thinks. The professor is in his 40s...my TA is easily 75. Seems like a knowledgeable old fellow.

my thinking is...what if we manipulate the metal via temperature and cooling to increase strength, or at least remove the variable that is the welds.

[Atc GuY]

I would think (not to hijack the thread) that if you heated the place you were welding up to red hot then welded, it wouldn't turn the whole piece into a carbon-rich metal. I've quenched a snowmobile spring in water and it broke when put under load. Best example of this is Samurai Swords: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwQqtf86qOc

[racerxxx]

Hey guys,

Let me first say I don't own a 350X---want to--but don't. Do all the frames crack at the same points on the frames or is it just random?? Are the cracks near bends in the tubing? I'm just curious, and has anyone cut the frame to measure the wall thickness on a straight and a curve. When they bent the tubing the wall mabey stretched and made some points thinner wall thickness and possibly started the process of work hardening the tubing---should take repetative bending before that. But if the cracks are in the frame where the frame is being "worked"(flexing due to repative shock or load) that could be a possibility. Chromo would be the best to work with but Honda wouldn't lay that money out per frame definitely better than a mild steel tube frame. Engineers sometimes get lazy they're use to using the same grade material over and over again, mabey if they switched grades it may have been stronger and not cracked--who knows. I know when it comes to alum and stainless at work it's always 6061 ans 304 stainless, thats all we use if we forget to put it on a drawing we just tell the guys in the shop alum or SS, it becomes a no brainer.

I think the cost of heat treating a frame mightstart to out weight the cost of buying a chromo frame. Every little thing done to the frame can change it in some small way, even sandblasting, sort of like shot peening connecting rods in a performance engine to change the stress of the rods for more strength.

I think i'm on a tangent---everything is possible, that's why we live in America! I'm just putting some other thoughts out there. I went to school for drafting and design, my father was a machinist and my father in law owns a machine shop--they are where I try to get all my knowledge.

Racerxxx

[ironchop]

the term heat-treating is misleaing...many different types of treating with heat produce drastically different results

Hardening....heating up a material red hot and queching or cooling it quickliy
making metal harder

Case Hardening....same as above but heating and then adding carbon...hardens just the top layers of the metal but not throuought like hardening

Annealing.....heat red hot and cool VERY slowly....makes hard metals more pliable or "softer"

shor blasts of high heat follwed by quick cooling, hardens steel...on the other hand,long periods of applied heat follwed by retarded cooling (slower then by air) softens steel

you don`t want to harden a frame....I worked for a custom V-twin MC aftermarket parts manufacturer and we also built tens of thousands of custom frames for V-twin builds for big-name bike builders as seen on TV


soft grade metals like cold-rolled 1018 steel bend very easily ....it has a low carbon content....carbon molecules bond to nearly every element easily and in steel they act like a binding agent...more binder means a tighter hold and the steel can retain its rolled,forged,or cast shape

too much hardness from heattreating makes the metal very brittle...since the bond molecularly is so tight, the steel just snaps at the weakest spot....less hardened steel can stretch and bend quite a bit before it breaks...like the difference between a dead tree limb and a green one

on another note...welding two pcs. of metal together has it`s own dynamic...the weld itself is in a constant state of draw in every direction....or "stressed" as they call it....when a area that was welded cools by air or other means, it hardens a bit...add stress from the weld itself and you have a pre-stressed and hardened joint...technically it`s more brittle after you weld the joint and under stress looking for a weak link

some frame companies on the higher end had their stuff "stress-relieved"...I hear that process involves cooking the thing in hot oil for an extended period of time to relieve the stress on the welds

you can also "anneal" the metal....annealing is the process of softening a hardened metal using heat, and cooling naturally....the process involves continued heating of the metal to "burn-off" carbon molecules, thus softening the metal by lowering carbon content....we had to anneal lot`s of tool steel dies at work just so an endmill would even cut the stuff

steel like 4130 has a high carbon content and so it is harder stuff....not anywhere near as hard as a heat-treated part but strong enough not to bend or tear like 1018 tends to

most folks think frames are tubes welded together to hold the motor and wonder why they cost so much...chromoly tubing is expensive...there is probably close to $200 in chromoly material in a trike frame minimum...It took us roughly two weeks for an engineer to design each one of our various frame tables (jigs) and build them frome scratch...equated to about $6000 in labor for the least expensive jig and maybe $700 in material for the jig...we had 7 of them...takes a lot$$ to build a safe, quality product and unless you sold several thousand like we did, you have trouble justifying the cost up front for the venture

each Tig welder spent about 8 hours per frame cutting,bending,handfitting,and welding...they also weld in a sequnce to reduce stresses which cause warpage...just because you bolted the thing in 48 places to the jig doesn`t mean it won`t pop into a banana shape as soon as you unbolt the finished product

frames are NOT easy or cheap to produce and $1000 bux for a race frame is actually a VERY economical investment

moral is....don`t heat treat a stock frame....it will break faster than it did before....replace that thin-wall frame with a quality frame if you want reliability and strength

hardening

hope all that crap answered yer question

[deathman53]

the frame I have on my atc250r is made from chromoly and was stress relieved, then sand blasted and powdercoated. The sub frame was a real tight fit, I had to file some of the frame and sub-frame for it go together good. When I mentioned this, the guy that built it said he had it was real tight on clearances and when everything was done the metal expanded/contracted some, its fairly normal on frames made by hand. Welding, heat treating, stress-relieving and even powercoated change the metal some.

[edog]

the term heat-treating is misleaing...many different types of treating with heat produce drastically different results

Hardening....heating up a material red hot and queching or cooling it quickliy
making metal harder

Case Hardening....same as above but heating and then adding carbon...hardens just the top layers of the metal but not throuought like hardening

Annealing.....heat red hot and cool VERY slowly....makes hard metals more pliable or "softer"

shor blasts of high heat follwed by quick cooling, hardens steel...on the other hand,long periods of applied heat follwed by retarded cooling (slower then by air) softens steel

you don`t want to harden a frame....I worked for a custom V-twin MC aftermarket parts manufacturer and we also built tens of thousands of custom frames for V-twin builds for big-name bike builders as seen on TV


soft grade metals like cold-rolled 1018 steel bend very easily ....it has a low carbon content....carbon molecules bond to nearly every element easily and in steel they act like a binding agent...more binder means a tighter hold and the steel can retain its rolled,forged,or cast shape

too much hardness from heattreating makes the metal very brittle...since the bond molecularly is so tight, the steel just snaps at the weakest spot....less hardened steel can stretch and bend quite a bit before it breaks...like the difference between a dead tree limb and a green one

on another note...welding two pcs. of metal together has it`s own dynamic...the weld itself is in a constant state of draw in every direction....or "stressed" as they call it....when a area that was welded cools by air or other means, it hardens a bit...add stress from the weld itself and you have a pre-stressed and hardened joint...technically it`s more brittle after you weld the joint and under stress looking for a weak link

some frame companies on the higher end had their stuff "stress-relieved"...I hear that process involves cooking the thing in hot oil for an extended period of time to relieve the stress on the welds

you can also "anneal" the metal....annealing is the process of softening a hardened metal using heat, and cooling naturally....the process involves continued heating of the metal to "burn-off" carbon molecules, thus softening the metal by lowering carbon content....we had to anneal lot`s of tool steel dies at work just so an endmill would even cut the stuff

steel like 4130 has a high carbon content and so it is harder stuff....not anywhere near as hard as a heat-treated part but strong enough not to bend or tear like 1018 tends to

most folks think frames are tubes welded together to hold the motor and wonder why they cost so much...chromoly tubing is expensive...there is probably close to $200 in chromoly material in a trike frame minimum...It took us roughly two weeks for an engineer to design each one of our various frame tables (jigs) and build them frome scratch...equated to about $6000 in labor for the least expensive jig and maybe $700 in material for the jig...we had 7 of them...takes a lot$$ to build a safe, quality product and unless you sold several thousand like we did, you have trouble justifying the cost up front for the venture

each Tig welder spent about 8 hours per frame cutting,bending,handfitting,and welding...they also weld in a sequnce to reduce stresses which cause warpage...just because you bolted the thing in 48 places to the jig doesn`t mean it won`t pop into a banana shape as soon as you unbolt the finished product

frames are NOT easy or cheap to produce and $1000 bux for a race frame is actually a VERY economical investment

moral is....don`t heat treat a stock frame....it will break faster than it did before....replace that thin-wall frame with a quality frame if you want reliability and strength

hardening

hope all that crap answered yer question

Good read!!!

[The Goat]

Thanks for all the replies.

[Billy Golightly]

Ironchop, that is a great reply! I concur with you on the times and costs of doing serious tube fab like for a frame. Fixturing everything up is a very in depth and involved project even for people that have done it numerous times before. If it'd be your first time like it would be for many of us (Myself included if it were to be a whole frame) you have to learn and do things as you go and it takes even longer. People don't realize how stuff takes to do right. That simple bent tube for the shock linkage that I welded into Syko's 500R frame was about 6 hours of labor. Could it have been done quicker? Sure. Will it be done quicker next time, now that I gota a better idea of wht I'm doing? Sure. But its still not going to be a quick, simple procedure by any means.

[ironchop]

It`s a SAFETY factor first and foremost...the liability issues for building frames are incredible

the folks who spend big$$ for R&D do it because they don`t want anybody to die first and foremost.

they have to pass these high costs off to the consumer, yes...but we can sleep at night knowing we got our money`s worth in security

stock frames aren`t that bad...considering they were mass produced on now obsolete machinery, methods and techniques

sure frames break...but since most trikes are aquired 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand and so on,you have no clue what the ride history is on that machine

did the previous owner let his 370lb. neighbor jump a drainage ditch on it?Hell, when I was a kid it was common to see some spoiled guy ghost ride his 250R off a cliff into a gravel pit, lakes,ponds,creeks,etc.

IS the top motor mount missing?...missing motor mounts allow the motor to place extra torque strain on the remaining mount areas causing cracks in the frame

was the suspension properly set? if the suspension wasn`t set up correctly for rider weight, rider style, terrain so on an so forth, these factors can quickly deteriorate the integrity of frames

I`ve seen frames straightened with torches and repainted...if the shadetree welder guy threw cold water on it afterward to cool it, that section is now brittle

my point is, don`t discount stock frames as junk....you sometimes don`t know what the circumstances were leading up to a breakage and therefore factory quality wasn`t the issue...it was poor maintenance and abuse

these machines have endured ALOT more abuse than I think Japanese engineers had intended originally and I can say from just my own experiences since 78...I`ve broke alot more quads than trikes....and I`ve ridden trikes three times more than quads and harder

I don`t think anyone from Japan knew that the American dirt junkies would lauch trikes 15ft. up and 30ft out or more

there`s no reason to fear a stock chassis...they`ve outlived their expectations in every regard and with proper attention and maintenance especially to the suspension, a stock frame can last much longer

but if you KNOW yer gonna regularly thrash that machine beyond it`s manufacturer`s expectations, then you might consider buying a custom frame.