1986 200X Running Rich - Added Link to Pictures

[FourtyCaliber]

Hey all. Newbie here. What a great site. I stumbled across it while Googling for 200X carburetor problems. Anyway, a Hi to everyone here.

I've got a clean, all stock 1986 Honda 200X. I bought it about 7 years ago and only rode it for a couple years. It always ran, but not right. It's been sitting for the past 5 years up until now. Now I'm working on it. When I parked it, the one thing I did do is completely fill the gas tank all the way up as far as I could. There is absolutely zero rust in the tank.

So, I just took the tank off and drained it. I cleaned it out with freash gas. I removed and cleaned the strainer and the petcock screen. It has good gas flow. I ripped the carb apart and soaked for a day. Ran wires through all the ports. Soaked the jets. They're all clean, side ports and bore. The slow jet was plugged up, but got it cleaned real good. Waiting on a new air filter right now. The old one disintegrated. I also changed the tranny oil. And I set the valves and then the decompress cable. All that is good to go. That carb is so clean I would fill it with ice cream and then eat it. Actually, I'd fill a lot of things with ice cream and eat it but that's a different story.

Anyway, it's running rich. At first I thought it was just at low speed, but I did 3 plug chops with brand new NGK DR8ES-L plugs, and they all come out sooty the entire length of the core nose. I raised the clip on the needle to the top slot and still the same. It was on the 3rd slot (factory). And this is with no real air filter. I did put the air filter metal "cage" back on to restrict it a little. Checked cylinder compression and its about 170 psi on my guage.

The jets in the carb are the stock #35 for the low speed and #112 for the main. I replaced the mixture screw o-ring with new (flattened) and replaced the micro washer that was missing.

To me, it runs better than OK from mid range to high. But putting around with minimal throttle in 1st gear and it's sort of "doggy". Now the plug tells another story all together for all the ranges.

This trike will continue to run even if I completely screw in the mixture screw. If I screw it out too much it runs like crap. A half a turn out is about MAX or it starts running like crap.

That's whats bothering the heck out of me. It seems like it needs more air but when I try to give it more air by opening up the mixture screw, it runs like crap. The spark seems ok to me, but I admit I'm not as good with the electrical as with the mechanics.

Does anyone have any ideas? Should I go down on the jets? If so, how much? I'm at about sea level, too.

Thanks for any help and its very appreciated.

[Dirtcrasher]

Hey bud, welcome aboard!! :beer :D

I must say it's nice and REFRESHING to read a new members post that seems to have done his/her homework :D

It's stock, so why rich?? If you said lean, I'd have some ideas. Hmmm...... It's not electrical, I don't believe anyhow. But, could an insufficient spark cause the fuel to not burn 100% and leave unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber??

Sounds like it's not getting enough air. No mice homes in the air box?? (New filter coming you said...)

If you remove the air box lid, is there any affect, it should lean it out but again stock shouldn't require it. No exhaust change right? No chance that silencer is plugged up with carbon? the stock ones have a plate you can remove to clean....

Stock is stock and stock jets are just fine without mods.

The airscrew definitely ought to change the idle and throttle response. Is the installed order screw, spring, washer, o-ring??

If the airscrew does nothing, the tip could be corroded or flat, o-ring shot or the pilot isn't spotless.

I know you said spotless like ice cream off Carmen Electras' goodies :lol: but did you UNSCREW and REMOVE every jet and clean it? (I'm just double checking!!) The pilot has numerous holes on it's sides that only get cleaned right if you remove it completely and look at it thru light. Soaking carbs really has no benefit unless every jet is removed and even the "needle jet holder"

Sounds like you did clean it correctly though...... Is this one of the carbs with the rubber plug on top and the slow jet on the side? Is that plug there?

Keep posting, and lets seem some PICS beyatch!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

EDIT - ANY chance the jets were compromised? IE drilled out?? Honestly, You seem to have done ALL the right things and I didn't pay enough attention to the details of your post when I first replied. Does the topend sound good? no ticks? I wonder if the cam is worn excessively? I'm kinda stumped here........ :lol:

[Erics350x]

^^ Like DC said, its nice to see a newbie post a fair amount of info from prior research.

I'd start by removing the pilot jet again and cleaning or replacing it. I'd also replace the spark plug and gap it to stock specs. Set the mixture screw and slide needle clip to stock specs.

[FourtyCaliber]

Hey DC and Eric. Thanks for the replies and the welcome. I have tried to do my homework. I know a fair amount about bikes, but all of the SPECIFICS I have learned from THIS site. I must have read 500 posts on carbs and jetting and adjustments in the last few days before I even registered. I figured that any problems I am having must have already been covered a time or two and instead of asking the same old things again, I should just read through the posts first and see if there's an answer already there.

To answer some of DC's questions:

"Sounds like it's not getting enough air. No mice homes in the air box?? (New filter coming you said...)"

The air box was thoroughly washed with engine degreaser and soap and water after that when I took it out. It's clean. Filter on the way. Had to order it. Right now, running without the filter and no airbox lid.

"If you remove the air box lid, is there any affect, it should lean it out but again stock shouldn't require it. No exhaust change right? No chance that silencer is plugged up with carbon? the stock ones have a plate you can remove to clean...."

It's still running rich even without the air filter or the lid in place. Stock motor. Stock exhaust. Stock jetting (#35 & #112). I'm going to have to check the silencer out and get back to you on that one. Thanks for the tip about the plate for cleaning access.

"The airscrew definitely ought to change the idle and throttle response. Is the installed order screw, spring, washer, o-ring??"

I would think so, too. It does to an extent. The order is right: screw, spring, washer, and o-ring. The o-ring is NEW and so is the washer (it didn't have a washer in it when I ripped it apart). What's really boggling my mind is that the spark plugs show running rich at all speeds (indicating it needs more air), but screwing out the air screw makes it run crappier. That screw seems to want to be set at about a half turn from the fully closed position. I don't get it.

"I know you said spotless like ice cream off Carmen Electras' goodies but did you UNSCREW and REMOVE every jet and clean it? (I'm just double checking!!) The pilot has numerous holes on it's sides that only get cleaned right if you remove it completely and look at it thru light. Soaking carbs really has no benefit unless every jet is removed and even the "needle jet holder""

Yup, just like ice cream in Carmen Electra's goodies. All the jets were removed and soaked. All the holes in the sides are open. Held up to the light and light shows through. Ran a wire through them. Removed and soaked the needle jet holder, too. Like I said, the pilot was blocked up. I couldn't "pop" the blockage out. I tried. I had to "hand" run a drill bit through it to open it up. The bit was smaller than the bore of the jet. When I got most of the blockage out, I soaked it again and squirted carb cleaner through it numerous times. I took one of those wire cleaners with the barbs on them used for cleaning the tips of an oxy/acetelyne torch tip and ran it down the bore a few times to get the varnish of the sides of the bore of the jet.

"Sounds like you did clean it correctly though...... Is this one of the carbs with the rubber plug on top and the slow jet on the side? Is that plug there?"

Is it supposed to have one of those "rubber plugs"? There isn't any in there anywhere. I downloaded the service manual and I'm looking at the blow up of the carb right now. I don't see any reference to a rubber cap. But I don't know.

"EDIT - ANY chance the jets were compromised? IE drilled out?? Honestly, You seem to have done ALL the right things and I didn't pay enough attention to the details of your post when I first replied. Does the topend sound good? no ticks? I wonder if the cam is worn excessively? I'm kinda stumped here........ "

I don't know if the jets were ever drilled out. I was pretty careful when I cleaned the blockage from the low speed jet. As far as the top end, it had a tick until I adjusted the valves. They were both off about a full notch. It's quiet now.

In response to Eric:

I just ran 3 brand new NGK plugs through plug chops. All 3 I gapped to specs and all 3 came out sooty black after one run at WOT in 5th gear (that's as far as I could get in my alley). Right now I have the clip on the needle at the very top groove. I ran 2 chops with it set at the 2nd from top groove. The 3rd chop I put it on the top groove. That's restricting the fuel as much as I can with the adjustments available to me. If I put it back on the 3rd groove, which is specs, (and I had it there for a long time), it's worse. The plug turns black and it's smokey. By putting it on the top groove, 90% of the smoke is gone, but the plug is still black. Not oily. It's dry, sooty black.

My new questions are how do I check the CDI? Or the coil? Is there some kind of electrical measurement I can take on each of these with a multimeter? Is there some kind of adjustment I can make on them? And how do I clean the carbon from the silencer? I've never found anything that removes that nasty carbon.

And here's my other rambling thought. Has anyone EVER had a spark plug on a STOCK Honda 4-stroker, produce that desired light tannish brown color after doing a plug chop? Where I'm going with this is I wonder if Honda deliberately tunes and jets ALL of their motors towards the "rich" side. For their own protection. Even though all of these off road vehicles are sold with "no warranty" when new, it seems that Honda wouldn't want a giant backlash from angry owners who destroyed their machines from running in a too lean condition. Would they? I mean rich just fouls plugs. Lean puts holes in pistons. It just seems their engineers would be inclined to design slightly on the rich side. Just a thought.

And when I put that new air filter on this trike, doesn't that mean that it will run even "more rich" because of the increased restriction?

I'll get a picture up soon of the trike. I'll get one of the 3rd plug chop I ran, too. That was the one I ran without the lid on the airbox (no filter, don't have one yet), and the clip on the top (#1) groove of the needle. In other words, as lean as I could make it, and it's STILL black.

Thanks for all the help thus far. I'll get the pics today later. My air filter should be in today, too.

[MonroeMike]

Welcome to the board.

This may sound like a silly question, but are you sure your choke is opening all the way?

[Erics350x]

Maybe the needle is worn? When you say you are doing plug chops, are you cutting them back to see the bottom of the ceramic? The outter part of the plug being black is perfectly normal.

[FourtyCaliber]

Hi Mike and thanks for the welcome. I don't think that's a silly question. I did check that. When the choke lever is all the way off, the flat sides of the butterfly are parallel(sp) with the bore of the carb. The 2 screws that hold it in are tight. I checked it for operation when I had the carb apart.

All I can come up with is weak ignition or too large of jets to start with. It starts first or second kick with the choke on. It then idles high, like it should. I have been letting it warm for maybe 30 seconds or so and then I turn the choke to half way for another 30 seconds and then to completely off. The idle comes down and it will idle for a while. After about 10 minutes of just idling, it will sometimes die. I have unscrewed the drain plug after it dies and the bowl appears to be full of gas. I checked the float height and its right on the money at .55 inch. I don't know where to go. I might pick up a couple smaller size jets when I go to get the air filter.

As far as the plug chops (Erics350X).................no not cutting the shell thread away. But the core nose is pretty short and with head magnifiers I can see all the way to the bottom clearly. It's black all the way down. Pictures are coming. I'm stupid in this regard, but I'm still trying to figure out how to post pictures.

[FourtyCaliber]

I'm trying the pictures now. I've looked for rules on picture sizing, but couldn't find anything definitive. I can't figure out how to post an actual image in the post so here is a link to photobucket with 4 pictures. One is of the 200X itself. One is of the end of the mixture screw. One is of the point on the needle. And the last one is of the #3 plug chop that I ran last at WOT in 5th gear with no airbox cover and no air filter. If the pictures aren't any good let me know. I am NO photog.

http://s675.photobucket.com/albums/vv120/FourtyCaliber/1986%20ATC%20200X/

[250rs-neva-die]

:welcome: thats a very clean unmolested x very nice

[Dirtcrasher]

^ Oooooh, that looks very nice and very stock :D I likey!!

Usually if you right click "copy" the bottom link or "IMG code" then "paste" the full size IMG code in your post the pic shows up and thats no issue with 3WW rules on sizes.......

Maybe it's the pic, but the carb slide "throttle valve" needle looked a bit odd to me?? Might just be the pic though.

Does your camera have a close up feature??

Bud, your in Ohio, we have SO many members from Ohio that are both intelligent, plentiful and helpful. Don't be afraid to throw out a post and see's who'd local to you, 2 heads are always better than one :D

I think 3WW ought to start something of a "buddy technician" where some of the more experienced members that have done extensive work in the given problem area are willing to help out other local members. ESPECIALLY people that read, listen, do there homework and TRY things themselves first! I have ALLOT of respect for people that at least try, instead of "Fark it, I'm parting it out or selling it!!".

Unfortunately most guys want instant answers and have no manual or clue as to what they're doing..... I think the biggest problem we have with trikes is almost anyone can afford them. There old, people are afraid of them or don't like them and sell them very cheap. The bad part is we end up with members that don't even try to help themselves; Tis not your case though my friend :beer

EDIT - The other thing I should have said is that I'm sure you know that without a filter and lid you can't even begin to tune a stock motor. I look forward to you getting that filter!

This was my plug with a .066 diameter main jet in a 28MM Mikuni flatside but I have a TON of mods on my 86 :D It ran super with that jet and race gas.....

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh220/Dirtcrasher/066Mainjet.jpg

[FourtyCaliber]

Thanks. I bought it about 7 years ago because it was so clean. It's not perfect. There's a little rust here and there. A few scratches. But it's solid. The inside of the tank was and is still immaculate. I'm seriously thinking about creaming it before it does start to rust.

DC posted: "Maybe it's the pic, but the carb slide "throttle valve" looked a bit odd to me."

I'm not sure I get what you mean? I know my pics aren't the greatest. I had the camera on the macro function but still had trouble focusing in on the points. The mixture screw is a little flattened at the end. Maybe someone can explain this to me, but I don't see how that affects anything. If it's all the way closed, the "point" of the screw just sticks up into the bore anyway. I really don't get that. If I run my finger up the side of the taper towards the point, I think I can feel a slght burr. But like I said I don't get how that would affect anything. Someone, please explain it to me.

The needle has a point, somewhat, but not sharp. I can't see what I would call any real damage to it. I have a 20X magnifying headset I wear and I've inspected all the jets, needles, AND seats. I can't see anything that jumps out at me.

What do you all think about that plug? Does that look rich to you all, too? Like I said, that's stock jetting (#35 & #112), no air filter, no air box cover, needle clip set at top most groove, and plug is gapped to about .026.

My filter didn't come in today. Maybe tomorrow. I don't know what else to do other than try smaller jets.

Is there ANY reason I wouldn't get the right amount of suction from the engine to draw in? What happens to the air that's mixed with the gas after it burns? Out the exhaust, right? What if the exhaust valve wasn't fully opening? Any thoughts?

I would be ecstatic if my plug looked just nearly as good as that. I'm really straining my brain here. I've had bikes my whole life. I had a 1978 XR80 that I absolutely BEAT TO DEATH. I mean I ran it into the Maumee river near my house and it would not die. I ran it in bitter cold temps on the ice and snow pulling sleds and it would not die. It didn't smoke none. I never had to touch the carb. The only thing that happened to it was it got stolen and it was beat up when I got it back. Dents in the tank and such. I bondoed those up and repainted and sold it and then got my 1981 CR125. Even the ATC 110 and 200S I both bought second hand never had problems. The 125 had problems though. Piece of crap. 2 rebuilds and I sold it. My experience has always been that the Honda 4-strokers are nearly indestructible.

"The other thing I should have said is that I'm sure you know that without a filter and lid you can't even begin to tune a stock motor."

Man, it just seems like it's going to be that much worse when I do put the filter on it.

Edit - I just decided that when I pick up the air filter I'm going to buy 3 new jets. I'm going to buy (1) new, stock #35 slow jet in case I did accidentally open it up when I was cleaning the blockage. (2) A new, #32 slow jet. (3) A new #109 main jet. I'll try the new #35 out first with the filter and lid and see what that does.

I like that "buddy technician" idea. Who here is from my area of Ohio? Near Toledo. Even SW Michigan like Detroit? I'll tell you one thing I will do and that is WHEN I get this figured out, I WILL post the "cure", at least for my situation, in this thread so others can gain the knowledge for their own "like" trikes" if they're having a similar problem.

[Dirtcrasher]

Don't mind me, I post and then Edit like crazy until I get what I want to get across correctly :lol: I meant to say "throttle valve or slide NEEDLE"

Anyhow, It looks too nice for me to condemn the cam or anything unless you told me it sounded terrible (click, tick, clack etc etc). Of course, "clean" is never a clear indication of the engine condition as plenty of people run low on oil and wear out parts..... I think you did say you adjusted the valves somewhere - any ticking??

Yes, the plug looks a bit rich OR oil fouled to me and maybe not "carburetor" rich. Are you seeing any smoke out of the exhaust??

With no AF, it should be quite white, so (maybe were not thinking correctly here) I'm wondering if the intake valve seal is leaking oil into the combustion chamber and making you think it's carburetor related "rich". It can't be that black from rich gas without an airfilter installed IMHO............. It did sit for a long time, that valve seal might be doing this.

Other stuff: The air screw tip; Thats the most important part, the tip. If it gets bottomed out too hard by some knucklehead it flattens it and then it loses it's sensitivety at 1-2 turns out were things are normally set.

The BAD THING is that I tried 2 different manufacturers rebuild kit and both had the wrong pitch for the thread of that airscrew and I could not use them. I forget whats "right" but the kit screw is more coarse and useless and potentionally allows people to snap them off and or ruin the carb merely installing them :( Hell, I bought those kits JUST FOR THAT DAM SCREW!! and I couldn't use them......

I say VALVE SEAL :D

[Jason Hall]

The mixing screw (fuel screw) Is this the one up through the bottom of the carb? If that has a burr on the point, Is there a chance It has bored the aluminum out of the carb body? Where the brass screw seats to meter fuel? If so, that could cause a rich condition by allowing to much fuel through at an Idle. I would try a smaller pilot, and see If you can get ANY adjustment from the fuel screw.

[FourtyCaliber]

"Don't mind me, I post and then Edit like crazy until I get what I want to get across correctly I meant to say "throttle valve or slide NEEDLE"

I understand what you're referring to, I just don't get what you mean by "odd"? Tell me and maybe this will solve this. I've been editing my posts like crazy, too, trying to more clearly say what it is I'm trying to say.

It had oil in it when I originally changed it when I 1st bought it. I just changed it again.

It was ticking before I just adjusted the valves. Now, nice and quiet.

"Yes, the plug looks a bit rich OR oil fouled to me and maybe not "carburetor" rich. Are you seeing any smoke out of the exhaust??"

It's not wet in the least. Dry and sooty. Yes, there's some smoke. Not white. I think the smoke was reduced when I put the clip on the top groove of the needle.

About that air screw tip...................I guess I'm really not understanding how that "tip" affects anything. If I lightly bottom the air screw out, the tip sticks through the small hole into the bore of the carb. It's like the tip has no real purpose. Isn't the "seal" made on the taper of the screw?

I'll be keeping that in mind about the thread if I buy another air screw.


Hey Jason:: Do you mean the screw OUTSIDE of the bowl on the bottom of the carb? If so, yes it is slightly flattened at the tip. But when that screw, with the spring, washer, o-ring configuration, is lightly bottomed out, the flattened out point sticks up into the bore of the carb through the little port into the bore of the carb. I just don't get how that "point" affects anything on that screw. Like I said earlier, this trike continues to run even with that air screw lightly bottomed out. It does not stall it out. Now, unscrewing or backing off the air screw will stall the trike.

If I adjust the air screw about where it should be (1 1/2 - 2 turns open), the trike's idle goes way down to nearly a stall. I have no adjustment on the idle screw in the side of the carburetor to increase the idle. It has to be all the way in if the air screw is open to about 2 turns. If I close the air screw some, say to 1/2 turn open, the idle goes up, and I can back off on the idle adjutment screw some. But I still have the rich plug. I smoothed out the "divet"(from the idle screw) on the angle of the piston slide where the idle screw makes contact.

It's like there's no happy medium. I can make it run, but the plug comes out looking like in the picture.

It might just be me, but it seems like there's A LOT of people on here that post about 200X's running rich.

[FourtyCaliber]

Does anyone know what octane gas I should be running in this trike? I don't have the owner's manual. Thanks

[Dirtcrasher]

Regular gas is just fine for OEM stuff, Super doesn't hurt :)

How can we tinker with an air screw with no air filter installed?? IDK??

I'm still thinking the intake valve seal is letting oil in there and darkening the plug.

How else could a 4 stroke plug be dark without an air filter?? I say rich fuel is being confused with oil contamination from a bad valve seal :D I gotta guess SOMETHING ya know......

Beyond this:

Think of the needle on the carb slide or throttle valve needle, it has a long taper that does it's job throughout a 2" stroke up and down maybe?? It regulates fuel to a level we couldn't even understand (or me anyhow :) )

Now look at the air screw, it's tapered too, and it BARELY moves from bottomed to 1/4, 1/2. 3/4, etc etc to 2 turns out and it makes a huge difference in idling and off idle response. Anyone see what I'm saying :D

[Jason Hall]

The screw under the carb with the spring washer and o-ring Is a Fuel screw. When you turn It In, you take fuel away, when you turn it out, you giving it more fuel. This gets confusing, but you just need to find a happy medium between the Idle screw, and fuel screw.

QUOTE
If I adjust the air screw about where it should be (1 1/2 - 2 turns open), the trike's idle goes way down to nearly a stall. I have no adjustment on the idle screw in the side of the carburetor to increase the idle.

This is because your opening the fuel up with the fuel screw, and giving the engine more Gas, you then have to open the slide to correct the mixture with more air.

I would try setting the Idle steady, turn the fuel screw (under the carb) In a little bit at a time, until you can use your Idle adjuster to Raise and lower the Idle. Once you can Bring everything Into sync, and realize your adjusting Fuel, and not Air with the lower adjuster screw, I think you will have It :beer :beer

[FourtyCaliber]

Well, that's good about the gas cause regular 87 is all that's in it.

Maybe it is oil fouling. I've seen oil fouling before, though, and it's been wet. That's about the only thing I don't like wet. I like my plug wet, but I don't want to hear the word "foul" at the same time. :D My Harley had a wet plug(back cylinder) until the upper rebuild. It still ran, though. I put a hotter plug in it.

???????????????????????????

Jason, where is the air screw then? Doesn't everyone call that the air screw? Or the "mixture" screw? Now I'm all screwed up. How is the amount of air controlled/metered/regulated? So are you saying I should just close off the "fuel" screw (lightly seat it), since that's where it runs best?

Just so there's no confusion, or no more confusion, we are talking about the adjusting screw on the OUTSIDE of the bowl? That's the "fuel" screw? It goes screw, spring, washer, O-ring? The screw I took a picture of abd posted the link to back some in this thread and called it the "mixture screw"? That's what we're talking about? :wondering The service manual calls it the pilot screw? And that adjusts the amount of fuel and NOT air in the mixture? Again, what adjusts the amount of air?

I'm listening, all ears.

[Dirtcrasher]

I may have learned something today because I call that screw, just like the one on the 350X an air screw. The 2 strokes I called a fuel screw. I've seen people argue about the placement of the screw in relation to the carb.....

I always felt I was "closing off air" when turning my 200X/350X screw in, and adding more when I turned it out.

Honestly, I've never really thought about "waht it does", I just mess with the screw until it runs smooth with good off idle response :D

[Jason Hall]

Quote
So are you saying I should just close off the "fuel" screw (lightly seat it), since that's where it runs best?

Thats what I would try!!! your metering air with the Idle screw (the one that raises & lowers the slide) Where you fixed the dimple didn't you? The air Is regulated by the gap under the slide. You might need to replace the pilot, did you posably bore the jet slightly when you cleaned It??

Do you have the air filter on????? I would put that on as Dirtcrasher suggested before your final adjustments.

Dirtcrasher, If the screw Is In front of the slide, the air flows through the bowl and pushes fuel In with air behind It. An air screw Is behind the slide, where It has no fuel to be pushed yet. In the case of an Air screw usually 2 stroke, your taking air away when turning the screw IN before It contacts the fuel to be pushed Into the engine :lol :beer

[Erics350x]

One other thing to check is the gas cap vent. It clogged on my 350x and caused it to run rich at idle, the tank was building pressure and causing the carb to overflow though.
If it where me i'd get a new needle and mixture screw and go from there. Or even a new carb from ebay can be found pretty cheap.

[FourtyCaliber]

Alright, I just did some quickie research on the Internet regarding "pilot screws". It seems that the function of a pilot screw can vary depending on the setup of the carb or how the passageways are configured. On some, backing OUT the pilot screw INCREASES the amount of fuel in the mixture. On other setups, just the opposite is true; ie, backing the screw out DECREASES the amount of fuel in the mixture. So now we get to where the real confusion is for a lot of people, including me, maybe especially me.

I just read that the easiest way to remember or figure out what the function is of the pilot screw in a certain carb setup is to look where it is located. If on the "engine side" of the carb, opening allows MORE GAS. If it is on the airbox side, opening allows MORE AIR. That is what I just read.

Any thoughts or opinions?

[FourtyCaliber]

One other thing to check is the gas cap vent. It clogged on my 350x and caused it to run rich at idle, the tank was building pressure and causing the carb to overflow though.
If it where me i'd get a new needle and mixture screw and go from there. Or even a new carb from ebay can be found pretty cheap.



Good thought and did think about that. Checked the cap out with compressed air. I left it loose or off during all of the adjustments. New screws are ALWAYS good. I'll be picking them up when I get the air filter. I'm still gonna get the new slow jet though, in case I enlarged it when I unplugged it.


I still think these 4 banger Hondas all come running slightly rich right from the factory. I think that's how they're setup for Honda's own protection.

[Jason Hall]

Quote
I just read that the easiest way to remember or figure out what the function is of the pilot screw in a certain carb setup is to look where it is located. If on the "engine side" of the carb, opening allows MORE GAS. If it is on the airbox side, opening allows MORE AIR. That is what I just read.

Thats what I just said about 4 posts up :beer :beer

[Gearheadtom]

I was having the problem of my 200m running rich. The clip was on the highest notch on the needle, and my plugs still turned black after a 5 min ride, and there was vey little difference if I ran it with no air filter or air box lid. My problem was the needle wore. I put in a new carb kit and now it seems fine.
Just my two cents.

[FourtyCaliber]

Quote
I just read that the easiest way to remember or figure out what the function is of the pilot screw in a certain carb setup is to look where it is located. If on the "engine side" of the carb, opening allows MORE GAS. If it is on the airbox side, opening allows MORE AIR. That is what I just read.

Thats what I just said about 4 posts up :beer :beer

Yes you did. Right on the money. The credit is due you.


UPDATE: Ok. Got my new air filter and found out something. It seems I DID, INADVERTENTLY, enlarge the slow jet when I had to take a drill bit to it to unblock it. Soooooooooooooooooooooo..........................I had to order a new one, #35, for $5.00, and it should be in Wednesday. I was careful as hell, so I thought, but not careful enough. This is probably why I am running so rich even when I screw the pilot screw in all the way. I also bought a couple new main jets, just to see what happens. The original in the trike is a stock #112, so I bought a #110 and a #108. When I get the new #35, I'm going to install the #108 and do a couple more plug chops, with the new filter and the air box lid on. I'm going to put the needle clip back on the third middle groove, too. Then we'll see how that goes. Oh yeah, even though my tank is completely rust free, I purchased an inline filter to install between the petcock and the carburetor. Most of the posts I've read from all the highly experienced owners recommend installing one, so I'm taking the good advice.

And I really learned a lot from Jason on that pilot (mixture) screw and how it works. Thanks a lot for that. Not that DC hasn't also increased my knowledge about this trike, cause he has. Big time. A lot of helpful advice from a lot of knowledgeable riders.

I'll update again as soon as I get the jet and run the chops. This trike will be ready to Baja on once again once I get the carb and filter back on. Hopefully. That's all it needs. I already fixed the taillight which needed a complete rewiring job. Replaced missing bolts for the toolbox and rear grab bar. Adjusted the chain. This should be it. :w00t: :w00t:

[Dirtcrasher]

Hey, hopefully this gets you squared away :beer:

Did you see any brass remnants when you cleaned the pilot?

Probably the worst thing I did at TF08 is I drilled out my pilot with the smalles drill in my index which was .060 yet WAY too much for a pilot jet. I built the friggen whole bike in 20 days and no one had jets 3 days prior to the event so I took a chance and I ruined the jet....................... I also ruined my chance of having any type of performance that few days because I had no jets to work with other than what sandpuppi and Raffa let me borrow. It REALLY was frustrating! But MY BAD for not being prepared. If you knew what it took to build that trike, that fast, anyone could relate!

I just couldn't imagine you being rich without an airfilter and all stock settings?? which led me to think you were burning some oil somehow.

Jetsrus and mrcycles (SP????) are both good places to get a bunch of jets if you have to play with things when you mod it in the future :D

[FourtyCaliber]

Hey DC....no I didn't notice any brass shavings coming out while I was hand spinning the drill bit with my fingers. I was on the lookout for that, too. But when I went to pickup my air filter, the guy had a #38 slow jet and comparing it to my drilled out #35, the #38 was like half as big. WTF?????? So, I just ordered a new Keihin #35. $5.00. I guess My Bad! . I don't have that much money in this thing. I paid $500 for it 7 years ago. The UNI filter was $22. The 2 smaller main jets I bought were $5 a piece. The inline filter was $3. I gotta go and buy some new fuel line and a couple clamps. I had to fix the taillight, completely rewire and re-sheath. I did that with things I already had. I had to buy a couple bullet connectors. Oh, and a couple metric bolts that were missing. Yeah, I was hoping it wasn't oil. I didn't want to get into that right now. I want to ride it for a while. I might trick it out some in the future. Or i might just off it and get a completely different trike if a deal comes around. I'm going to get "stock" running right first, though.

Yeah, 20 days is a fast build. That would really suck. I think I just learned if I can't push a jet blockage out with a paper clip and compressed air, I'm buying a new one.

[FourtyCaliber]

Update: I checked the Cycleman shop where I ordered the #35 jet to replace the one I, ahem, accidentally drilled out when attempting to unblock it, and it didn't come in yet. Maybe tomorrow. I got the air filter. I think I already posted that previously. Everything is ready to go back together. Just waiting on the jet. I'm getting antsy.

So, with nothing to do, I started another project. My Harley has been sitting for five years, parked, not ridden. The gas has turned to varnish, plugged up everything. The Kreem in the tank has come loose. The metal has all tarnished. It looks bad. So, I ripped the tanks off and I bought 2 gallons of acetone to remove the old Kreem and the varnish and the rust. Then I'm going to re-line the inside with a new coating called POR-15. Supposed to be better. I ordered a carb rebuild kit due in a few days and I started polishing all the chrome, aluminum, and brass. Tins are next. Then I'll have to get a battery and see what she does.

Too many projects going. Still haven't got my car done. I'd like to at least get one thing done.

[oscarmayer]

hey I had a simular problem. i ended up doing a rebuilt kit and it fixed the issues. reason is those parts wear out.e ven though ti says 112 jet it coudl be hogged out to a 118 jet due to normal use. also the needle will thin out over the years and the mixtre screw will thin and scar like yours.
personally I think getting a $20 rebuild kit and repalcing everythgin woudl propbebly resovle the issue. it jsut really looks like the parts are slightly worn out but under normal conditions which makes it ahrder to detect than something that was sitting for years.

[FourtyCaliber]

hey I had a simular problem. i ended up doing a rebuilt kit and it fixed the issues. reason is those parts wear out.e ven though ti says 112 jet it coudl be hogged out to a 118 jet due to normal use. also the needle will thin out over the years and the mixtre screw will thin and scar like yours.
personally I think getting a $20 rebuild kit and repalcing everythgin woudl propbebly resovle the issue. it jsut really looks like the parts are slightly worn out but under normal conditions which makes it ahrder to detect than something that was sitting for years.


Hey Oscarmayer...........I know the #35 jet is opened up cause I did it with a drill bit when trying to unblock it. Waaaaaay too big. That's the reason for replacing that one. I'm trying a smaller one on the main because "I think" Honda, at the factory, purposely jets their trikes and bikes a little rich to protect themselves from lean damage. The Uni filter I put on should lean it out a little, too. I replaced the o-ring on the pilot screw. It was squished and a little tore at an edge. All the passageways are clear in the carb. Slide looks good. Needle looks good. I checked everything under magnification. The trike ran pretty good from 3/4 to full throttle, maybe 1/2 to full throttle. Ran like crap at 1/8 throttle just putting around in first gear. Idle was off and plugs were loading up bad just idling. Black as coal. They were black too even when doing WOT chops at full throttle in 5th gear, just one run up the alley with brand new plugs. I did three chops like that and that's why I figured I could go down a little on the main. I just want to see if I can optimize the performance for this stocky. I would have put a rebuild kit to it, but I don't personally think it needs one. If what I'm doing doesn't solve the problem, you can be sure that a rebuild kit is next on the agenda.

[FourtyCaliber]

Went and picked up the stock #35 slow speed jet today that finally came in. I just got in the house. It's 11:30pm here, EST in Ohio. Installed the #35 slow speed jet, installed a #110 main jet (#112 is stock). Put it all back together WITH the new Uni filter and the air box cover. Adjusted the pilot screw 1 1/2 turns out from lightly seated position. Installed a fuel filter in between petcock and carb. Turned the petcock 90 degrees so that the adjustment lever faced towards the BACK of the trike and the petcock barb faced the exhaust on the right side. Looped the fuel line around and brought it around the backside of the slide chamber on the carb and to the barb on the carb. Not sure if that's the right way, but it seems ok.

Got it started with choke on. Had to mess with the idle adjustment some. Waited a couple and turned the choke off. Gave it quick shots of gas at the throttle and it hesitated BAD before revving up. Did it a few times, no difference. Messed with the pilot screw OUT MORE and still had the hesitation. No more smoke, though. Went in on the pilot and must have went too far because then after revving and letting off, it came down from the high rpm's real slow. I kept adjusting and finally noticed that the exhaust was CHERRY RED coming out of the motor. Turned it off QUICK!

Took everything back off and put the stock #112 main back in. Put it all back together, set the pilot at 1 1/2 turns OUT again and fired it up. Idled real high. So, I backed off the idle screw, MORE THAN I HAVE EVER BEEN ABLE TO BEFORE, to get the idle down. Gave it quick throttle bursts and it still had the hesitation before revving up. I went out on the pilot screw another 1/2 turn and checked it again with quick throttle bursts. It seemed better, but still hesitated before revving. But after revving and me letting of the throttle it came down quicker. I opened up the pilot another 1/2 turn and checked again and was better still. Slight hesitation, but came down pretty quick. Went almost another 1/2 turn, and checked again and it seems good. A little hesitation just revving it in neutral. Decided to take it out for a spin up the alley.

In first gear, popping the throttle hard, NO hesitation. I checked and checked again. No hesitation. And no more "rough running" just putting around at idle in first gear. I nailed it through 5 gears up and down the alley and it responded well. No backfiring. Sounds REAL good. Fast! Comes down fast from high R's.

Brought back to the garage and in NEUTRAL and throttling fast and hard, still the "slightest" bit of hesitation. But NONE when hitting the throttle in 1st gear.

I'm about 3 turns open from the seated position on the pilot. I know that's more than the SM says, but at 1 1/2 turns open, it hesitates bad. I think I'm going to go another 1/4 turn open tomorrow and see if I can eliminate the hesitation in neutral. No smoke at all anymore. That was all from the drilled out slow speed jet it seems. It's running like it's supposed to. At least I think so. Idles super smooth. Nice and even with no misses or ups and downs. No indication it wants to stall. I didn't set with a tach. Just by ear.

Things seem good. Stock jet sizes. A new O-ring and washer on the pilot screw. New air filter and fuel filter. The biggest thing I noticed is that the adjustment mechanisms..............the pilot screw and the idle screw............actually do something now and moving either of them just a little does something. Didn't have that before. I had the idle screw almost all the way in before to make it idle. Now I'm almost all the way out. And before changing the drilled out jet, I could completely screw the pilot all the way in and the trike ran. Actually it had to be in almost all the way with the drilled out jet to make it run. Now it's out 3 turns and screwing it in too far makes it lean and turns the exhaust cherry red. What a difference a jet makes, huh?

[Erics350x]

Thanks for the update, good to hear it.

[FourtyCaliber]

Thanks for the update, good to hear it.

Eric..............Do you think that by installing a larger slow jet, say a #38, instead of the #35, that it could help get rid of the "super small hesitation" when throttling hard? I have a #38 jet. With the less restrictive UNI air filter on the trike now, would it be able to handle the larger jet? Would that maybe allow me to back off the pilot screw some, more in line with the 1 1/2 to 2 turns out position, instead of the 3 turns out now? What are your thoughts?

[Jason Hall]

Sounds like a bigger pilot would be the way to go. Did you move the needle at all? Richening the needle/raising the clip should help with the hesitation when throttling In.

[FourtyCaliber]

Sounds like a bigger pilot would be the way to go. Did you move the needle at all? Richening the needle/raising the clip should help with the hesitation when throttling In.

Hey Jason.......I put the clip back to where it was at the middle groove (stock). Maybe it's just the UNI filter causing it to run a little lean? I'll probably try either moving the needle clip or throwing the #38 slow jet in and then closing off the pilot screw maybe a turn or so. Having too many deaths in the family lately, 3 in the past couple months, so I have funeral this week. Plus I've been working on the Harley some. We'll get to it, though.

And I don't know if I already said it, but GREAT BIG THANKS TO EVERYONE who helped me with knowledge, advice, suggestions, and lessons. It helped me a LOT! Couldn't have done it without everyone's help. I don't know what I'm going to do with the trike yet. Don't get me wrong, I love my trike and tearing up the trails around my area. But I like working on them, too. I "may" want to get another one that needs some work and fix it up. Just don't know yet. Have to find a deal first. I'm really not into the full resto work. I could do it, but really can't see the point. Full restorations really look great, but if something looks that good, I wouldn't even want to ride it. And what fun is that? Just give me a pretty clean, decent looking, well running trike that I don't feel guilty about riding and running hard and that's best for me. Museum pieces may be fun to build, but after they're built, it's pretty much over. Just my 2 cents. Think I'd like to do a 110...still have a soft spot for them and like the bounce. :w00t:

I'll let you know how the #38 jet does and/or the needle clip move.