Having some fun with the National Product Safety Commission…

[HuffieVA]

Back in school if a bully kicked my butt, you could be dam sure I devised a way to kick his twice as bad, even if it took more than one try, and even if I didn’t succeed I never gave up or cowered chanting "please don't hit me again, please don't hit me again" How did that work out? I must have misunderstood the "pessimist" reference in your signature I would have thought you had some fight left in you.

They cannot openly ban a product that they have accepted as a "non flawed design", they can only hide it in language crafted like it is in the "lead law" otherwise it would simply say "from this point forward all three wheeled ATV's are officially banned" but it doesn’t say that does it?

I don’t know what you are referring too as an 11 year dedication to a waste of time but apparently at one time you were dedicated to a fight someone else didn’t agree with, I certainly don’t mind constructive criticism or even a good disagreement or argument if you will, but your response shows more bitterness, pessimism and fear than fact in my opinion

[hang&rattle]

One of the problems with a discussion, is an argument is posted about something, is misread & misunderstood. Everyone needs to read carfully what was individually posted. Huffie knows he will not bring trikes back into production by the major manufacturers. What Huff is commenting on is a battle between right and wrong. And it appears as if Huff is educated in his approach. I took business law and other law classes in school to help me understand, because if you don't know your rights, you don't have any. Huffie is standing for my rights, thank you my friend. The NPSC needs to be exposed (and do a computer search, they have been sued and exposed before). If Bill Gates were a trike enthusiest and had a mulltimillion dollar lawyer, then national coverage would bring out similar points that Huffie made. And they WILL NOT waste there time on doing a full, permanent ban, the major manufactures were moving on to the high volume sale of quads. I can see the point of TimSr and agree on 'Be careful', but I don't see Huffie backing out of the kitchen when it gets too hot. It will not effect my ownership and operation of 3-wheelers. And in other posts I stated I don't live by "what if's'. 'What if' you get cancer? 'What if' terrorists trigger a nuclear bomb in NY? 'What if' the npsc goes after a few thousand 3-wheeler owners? Also agree with TimSr that the npsc is a joke. A political powetrippin' job to act like a bully. The U.S. Gov't got spanked by Howard Hughs, remember rowe vs. wade and it's reversal and re-reversal, and I am glad our forefathers, after havin there butts kicked by the 'bully' english, didn't give up their lunch money and took a second and third beatdown untill they DID when our rights to freedom. I don't want a new trike, like the fact that mine is rare. I do however want the ban exposed so the truth can be reveiled to the general public. Does everone believe that the cpsc (npsc) mislead and lied to the American public about 3-wheelers? I do feel they are accountable. I fought the Department of family services in a custody battle. They accually changed court documents and set forth false accusations against me and tried to have me thrown into prison for exposing them. The judge seen the laws broken by the social workers (in their quest for power) and everyone of them were fired from that office. I nearly went to prison, but won my kids and got custody and they got there's. Stand, always stand.

[Lock]

Interesting thoughts on both sides of this discussion. One of the best threads on this board. However, I'm throwing my vote in favor of letting the sleeping dog lie. I'm not a longtime 3WW regular so please don't bash me too badly, but here are my thoughts.

What is the point pursuing this course of action? What is it that is hoped to be gained?

Exposure of a gov't conspiracy to eliminate 3 wheelers in the late 80's... LOL.

Let's imagine a time machine where we can go back and undo the original ban in the 80's. Fast forward to 2010 in this alternate reality, and I'd bet the ATV landscape doesn't look much different than the reality we live in today.
Why, you ask? For the average person, a quad (or side by side) is a better choice of ATV. The general public would have made 3 wheelers obsolete regardless of the government's actions. Granted, we may have seen 3 wheelers produced into the mid 90's without the ban, but I still feel that for the majority of people that I see riding ATV's, they would have chosen a quad over a 3 wheeler since they are easier to ride. I don't think anyone can realistically argue against that, even if you love your 3 wheeler. Most of us not only have 3 wheelers, but we have quads and dirt bikes as well, so we know that a 3 wheeler requires more skill to ride than a quad.

In my opinion, we are at a natural evolution where 3 wheelers (with, or without the ban) would no longer be produced. (off topic, but similiar situation: How many new 2 stroke ATV's do we see today, eh?) Perhaps we'd have larger OEM parts support than we do today, but there is no way that any of the big manufacturers will retool and start up production of new 3 wheelers if this course of action leads to a repeal of the existing ban.

I do fear that too much attention could backfire on us. Just yesterday I saw the CPSC is requiring Graco to recall 2 million strollers produced through 2007 because they pose a risk of strangulation to the child. Basically, the strollers are fine, but if the parents don't strap in their kid, the kid can slide down and get caught between the stroller and some cross bar, which poses a risk of strangulation.

Right now, you're frowning at the monitor and thinking to yourself "what does a stupid stroller have to do with 3 wheelers"? Basically, here is an out of production product (models produced through '07) that is perfectly safe when used correctly that is still being banned and recalled. It doesn't seem like such a stretch to apply this same scenario to our 3 wheelers. Sure they are 20+ years old, but if the CPSC has statistics showing they still pose a risk to the public's safety, what would stop them from somehow recalling them or limiting their use? Someone already said the CPSC is above the law and doesn't answer to Congress or the President. So if that's true, why push them other than to make a point?

Instead, I see a lot of talent that I'd like to see pointed at a real issue that currently impacts all of us: land closure. Let's funnel our energies to reopen closed areas, and to make new areas to ride. Being stuck in ORV parks, stuffed with riders zipping around everywhere, does not make for a safe situation vs 20 years ago when I could go ride in private forests and state land where I'd be lucky to run into another vehicle the entire day.

Besides, with no land to ride, this thread's core issue is moot. 3 wheelers, quads and side x sides will just be dust collecting garage queens, and a reminder of a happier era.

[Xpress]

When a bully kicks your butt and takes your lunch money, and moves on, and you go back and irritate him, and flaunt what he did not take the first time, all you're going to get is a second beatdown, worse than the first and confiscation of what you have left.

Bull , I don't let anyone bully me down, and anybody who knows me in person knows to not mess with me.

If anybody is going to be kicking butts, it's me.

See, this doesn't quite stack up as a good comparison.

They will not take your trikes, but they can make it nearly impossible to ride them anywhere.

I'm not worried about that. Where I live, cops don't care if you're on a bmx bike, or a motorcycle, they just don't care. ATV laws where I live are more lenient, and we are free to ride around during normal day to day activities.

Where I DO ride out in the desert, nobody frequents, and that's evident by the lack of tire tracks.

[Mosh]

THEY (the big 3-4 companies) WILL NEVER BUILD 3 WHEELERS AGAIN..Ever!

Please read that 3 times and let it sink in.

It does not matter what is stricken from past decisions or laws.
There is no market to even justify the cost of tooling up to make a new machine, especially in this bogus economy.
If you were Honda or Yamaha, already struggling to sell ATV's and dirtbikes now, would you invest how many millions in engineering, factory set-up and what not to make a run of trikes?
To sell what, maybe 1000 units?
If you say you would invest that, then that is why you do not own the company..

My point is, there are guys that will build trikes in moderen form right now.
I dont see 1000's of peeps lining up to buy them..Not becuase they are not a good product, but most people do not have any money.
40% of this forum lately seems to be kids, that drug a 110 out from grandpa's garage for FREE, and just wanted something to ride.
Which also seems to be the people that cant be realists, in recognizing the fact that new trikes are not going to be lucrative to produce.
Even the guys that build these hybrids for private sales are probably not making much profit at all, if any, by time it is all done.
They are doing it for the love of the hobbie,and the desire of a few select peeps that will buy one.

There is at least 4-5 privateers building new machines..and aside from a few sales, I dont see anyone on these forums lining up and smacking down the cash to own one.
So ask yourself this..
If the laws were revoked and IF Honda built a new Hi-po trike for the cost of say, $6500.00 plus tax.....
Would you honestly go buy one tomorrow? Would 50,000 people today, go shell out that money for a new trike?

I dont think I saw a line of 50,000 people in Front of TPC's shop, or Halls Performance this year, or last year combined...?????
The option is already there, but less than a handfull of trike riders are buying now..

Seriously..It takes 2-4 months just to get 20-30 people to buy new fenders in a group order for the price of 300 bucks..for a machine that already exists..
I dont believe for 1 second that all the major corps, could even sell 20,000 new trikes in one year combined.

[Xpress]

Sales are down on everything right now. The local motorcycle shops aren't selling much, because people are buying used gear for cheap, that works just as good as the newest models. Talking with one of their employees, they said they're lucky to sell a few ATV's and motorcycles a month. They're making all of their profit off of riding gear, or parts and such.

[thestud25]

Very good point Mosh. However, I do believe that if there were no restrictions on Manufacturing and selling 3 wheeled machines, there would be alot more "Privateer" builders out there. That would drive down the cost, build interest from part suppliers and may ignite a flame for new/old trike riders. I talk to people on a daily basis that still have the misconception that it is Illegal to own, operate, and sell three-wheelers! That is how misleading the Ban was/is. The mass public does not know about 3WW, org or any other sites dedicated to 3 wheelers. So, they are ignorant to the fact that A.) these machines are not illegal, B.) there are small "Privateers" building new machines, and C.) if operated within the intended purpose these machines are no more dangerous than dirtbikes, quads, etc!

I am not a dreamer thinking the Big 3/4 will start rolling out new machines, but I am a realists with knowledge that states if a Market presents a need(new trikes), then people will start to fill the need.

[Louis Mielke]

I'm not worried about that. Where I live, cops don't care if you're on a bmx bike, or a motorcycle, they just don't care. ATV laws where I live are more lenient, and we are free to ride around during normal day to day activities.

Where I DO ride out in the desert, nobody frequents, and that's evident by the lack of tire tracks.

So you only care about yourself? So as long as you're safe and you can ride its just fine and dandy that possibly everyone else in other states with other laws and other law enforcement officials can loose their privileged to ride? You don't care about anyone else but yourself I suppose?

Dude you are an example of the type of people that ruin our sport. So narrow minded and self serving. The greater good means nothing to you does it?

How old are you like 13? Because that's the way you're talking, like a 13 year old kid who only sees what's right in front of his eyes instead of the big picture.


And to anyone who thinks that there's some kind of "market" or "demand" that could possibly materialize out of thin air. You're all jacked because there isn't. No wait I'll correct myself, if there is it's so freaking small that anyone who might even considering meeting the "demand" would go belly up for lack of sales. FURTHER MORE: THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO EVER TALK ABOUT THREE WHEELERS GETTING MANUFACTURED AGAIN ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY TO BUY ONE.

Stop undermining the people on this board who habitually pony up the money and make things happen, or talk to the tracks and organize events, or the people who put Trikefest together, or refurbish seats, or produce parts.

[thestud25]

And to anyone who thinks that there's some kind of "market" or "demand" that could possibly materialize out of thin air. You're all jacked because there isn't. No wait I'll correct myself, if there is it's so freaking small that anyone who might even considering meeting the "demand" would go belly up for lack of sales. FURTHER MORE: THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO EVER TALK ABOUT THREE WHEELERS GETTING MANUFACTURED AGAIN ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY TO BUY ONE.

Stop undermining the people on this board who habitually pony up the money and make things happen, or talk to the tracks and organize events, or the people who put Trikefest together, or refurbish seats, or produce parts.

I don't want to get into an argument over there being a demand or there not being a demand for new trikes. However, we need to look at the overall picture here. Parts are getting harder and harder to find/buy. The dedicated rider/restorer/owner much like yourself and I will always be willing to hunt them down and pay the money needed to attain them. I think that is evident here with about 70% of the members. Everyone was on board when the letter was written and the phone calls were made to Honda. Why not collectively come up with a way to provide a means to continue this hobby/lifestyle without paying out the nose? I personally love buying, building, and riding my 3 wheelers and does the vast majority of people on here. it is evident that people are willing to reproduce parts to keep the machines alive. It is also evident that people are willing to produce and buy "New trikes." Albeit in low numbers. We are fighting amongst ourselves, instead of coming up with way to keep our passion alive.

Key the lovey dovey BS comments........now!

[HuffieVA]

THEY (the big 3-4 companies) WILL NEVER BUILD 3 WHEELERS AGAIN..Ever!

It wasn't my intended vision... to have a "1 trike per household minimum" but more of a "Hey (CPSC), now that you have basically eliminated an entire form of recreational vehicle based on skewed/biased information why not come clean and admit you were wrong"... will it make parts available? likely not, would small custom shops like TPC have an easier time marketing their conversions? perhaps but that doesn’t mean that they will become popular and sell 1000 a year... If I lead anyone into thinking Honda has a boat load of 250r's waiting at Customs for the ban to be lifted, I'm sorry, hell we can't even get most of the manufacturers to import full sized 2strokes any more... This thread came about because I was reading the portion of the lead ban legislation that pertained to ATV's and the way they backdoored a technical ban of three wheelers into it... I pissed mo off so I wrote a letter, the boiler plate / textbook responses I got pissed me off more so I continued to respond... In order to not sound like a pesky idiot I read more and more into the available information about the consent decree and other available info and guess what, yepp ... more pissed, then I posted it here thinking that some people would get a shred of enjoyment out of it... Do I think it will create a time warp and put us back to 1984? No, but will i continue to stand my ground and believe that it was a biased decision based on public panic? Yes, Will it make any difference whatsoever? Probably not, but I don’t mind being brutally honest with someone, in this case it's the CPSA... I may be a little bullheaded and set in my ways but I've never been one to take a certin path just because the guy next to me took it, I always take the one I think is right and hey sometimes I'm wrong, but being hated for who I am is a thousand times better than being liked for who I'm not, unfortunately in todays world that makes me somewhat of an outcast

[TimSr]

Bull , I don't let anyone bully me down, and anybody who knows me in person knows to not mess with me.

If anybody is going to be kicking butts, it's me.

See, this doesn't quite stack up as a good comparison.

You're right. Its not a good comparison. The bully we are talking about is a federal agency with thousands of federal agents its its disposal, and a budget in the billions of dollars. But then, if we are going to use the literal definition of the bully we are talking about, it does not diminish my point, but does makes your post above look rather silly. After you kick the CPSC's butt, maybe you can take on the IRS for us.

[ATCrider42]

This for "HuffieVA." Would putting a lot of the parts for these older ATC's back into production and distributing them in the U.S. again be illegal or out of the realm of possibility?
It seems like we could see a lot more ATC's being revived or even assembled piece by piece if Honda and Yamaha atleast produced all the parts still. It would be cool to see "hard to find" parts readily available for a reasonable price then people could quit worry about buying a whole machine and start piecing together a whole new machine by using whatever old parts you have and combining with new. Maybe this wouldn't make any fiscal since but it seems like a good loop hole that would best suit everyone.
So my vote is for Honda putting abunch of parts back into production. Or building new parts that would could be retrofitted for the old stuff.

[hang&rattle]

I am really enjoying this thread. And in a strange sense agree in certain aspects from every post. This is total learning. And really this isn't a debate for anyone confident in there post. This is actually a good discussion to know who knows 'what' for 'what' information or route to take. Don't be a bunch of whining bitches though guys, we are products of the 70's and 80's and will stand behind our mindsets. What Huffie's original post was about was standing up for the rights and pointing out the lawlessness and exposing it. NO ONE THINKS 3-WHEELERS WILL BE PRODUCED FOR REAL. Don't know how it got off base on someone expressing hope in a joking way. Any documentation of the cspc working on a true, total ban making it illegal to ride or own a 3-wheeler? Another 'what if'. I don't hide in a bomb shelter because 'what if' a Muslim has a bomb at the local air force base. Just the facts are helpful here. Huffie dissected the letters and laws using facts and knowledge, not 'what if' they take away Christmas. And with what TimSr said above that is correct, but as I stated, we are small fish in a very big ocean. They have bigger more profitable products to harass. But keep posting, because I think a few are actually on to something and I want to learn more, facts are coming out all over, knowledge is power.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

TimSR: you make a very good point in a well put together way. And i agree with you as far as the waking of the sleeping giant so to speak. I still dont think there is much anyone could do to spur some sort of confiscation decree by the CSPC. We are just to small a percentage of the overall powersports community. HOWEVER, i very much agree that regardless if the CSPC ever did retract their ill-informed (to put it lightly) position on the trikes, none of the major brands would ever start reproducing them. On one hand it would be nice to see some level of correction of the record on the bad rap trikes got back then, but on the other, you are spot on, why stir the pot. HUFFIE: by no means do i disagree with your digging in a little bit here. I guess im a bit on the fence with this one. But i still think the prospect of an ownership ban is a 1 in a million. There are alot more and bigger fish they want to fry than that i think....

[Mosh]

THEY (the big 3-4 companies) WILL NEVER BUILD 3 WHEELERS AGAIN..Ever!

It wasn't my intended vision... to have a "1 trike per household minimum" but more of a "Hey (CPSC), now that you have basically eliminated an entire form of recreational vehicle based on skewed/biased information why not come clean and admit you were wrong"... will it make parts available? likely not, would small custom shops like TPC have an easier time marketing their conversions? perhaps but that doesn’t mean that they will become popular and sell 1000 a year... If I lead anyone into thinking Honda has a boat load of 250r's waiting at Customs for the ban to be lifted, I'm sorry, hell we can't even get most of the manufacturers to import full sized 2strokes any more... This thread came about because I was reading the portion of the lead ban legislation that pertained to ATV's and the way they backdoored a technical ban of three wheelers into it... I pissed mo off so I wrote a letter, the boiler plate / textbook responses I got pissed me off more so I continued to respond... In order to not sound like a pesky idiot I read more and more into the available information about the consent decree and other available info and guess what, yepp ... more pissed, then I posted it here thinking that some people would get a shred of enjoyment out of it... Do I think it will create a time warp and put us back to 1984? No, but will i continue to stand my ground and believe that it was a biased decision based on public panic? Yes, Will it make any difference whatsoever? Probably not, but I don’t mind being brutally honest with someone, in this case it's the CPSA... I may be a little bullheaded and set in my ways but I've never been one to take a certin path just because the guy next to me took it, I always take the one I think is right and hey sometimes I'm wrong, but being hated for who I am is a thousand times better than being liked for who I'm not, unfortunately in todays world that makes me somewhat of an outcast

That statement I posted earlier was not directed towards you.
It is merely a realistic observation that I have seen over my 6 years on this forum, and more directed to those that may be new to this deal. Lets face it, many of the "active" posters on this board were not even alive in 1987. Or even a twinkle in their parents eye.
For all those years I have been on here, there has been thread after thread about this same topic "They might make trikes again", and "hi Hopes" come about from those threads. It just really gets old.
The statement was directed to the guys that actually think that "they", whoever it may be, will actually mass produce trikes again.
They wont. They just wont. As far as "they" are concerned, it would be like reproducing the Ford Pinto again..Noone would buy it, and everyone that has been around long enough, has the image in their head that the Pinto was a death trap. Which is much the same perception people have about ATV's let alone trikes.

What I did gather by your well written letters, was you want Closure to these "Safety Guidelines" or list of acceptable modifications, that would allow one to circumvent the "ban" or "cease and desist" letter that they implemented years ago.
All you want to know is what is acceptable standards to build a safe trike, and they won't give it to you.
To them..It would be like Ceaser's Palace in Vegas, actually teaching people how to count cards.

Someone said it best, that maybe these efforts would be better concentrated on keeping ride areas open.

Drawing any more attention to "trikes" or the already "negative ATV stereotype", is much like throwing raw meat in front of a pack of rabid wild dogs.