iI wish cliff would go to trikefest, so Sr. would make fun of him on his movies, instead of me!Originally Posted by Jeb
Once again TimSr dismantles Cliff!
When will he learn ...
Power User
Teaching quads a lesson
iI wish cliff would go to trikefest, so Sr. would make fun of him on his movies, instead of me!Once again TimSr dismantles Cliff!
When will he learn ...
Haspin veteran '02, '03, '04, '05
"Hey is your dash-cam on? Are we gonna be on C.O.P.S?"
RECOVERING Trikeaholic
At The Back Of The Pack
Arm chair racerFirst time rider
I have to bring somthing up. I am a proud American. I have served 5 years active duty in the US Army Military Police Corps. Did any of you ever concider the US Gov to hippocrits? We are so concerned about who might develope nukes, but have we forgotton that we are the only one who have actualy used them. We are so concerned about ethnic clensing. Does anybody remember the Trail of Tears. Yes that was our army removing a people from it's land based on its race. We are so concerned about Biological weapons. Do you know who once again used those first, Yeah it was our forces infecting blankets with measels and handing them out to indians. Ohh , and I almost forgot about that slavery thing.
Now before I get run over with the flag wavers who will be allot of people who have never actualy served their country, remember. I support that soldier doing what he has sworn to do. I belive we should protect ourselvs, and help our allies(within reason). But as far as telling others what they can and cant do I just feel like we are hippocrits. One other thing, well wait ,911 was a terrible thing, it was an attack, it was a wake up call, but did you know that there is 9 muslims to every 1 christian in the world, some people just dont realse that We are the minority, and that every religion has extreamests. DAVID KORESH hint hint
Last edited by 3 or die; 12-14-2004 at 08:50 PM.
Just Too Addicted
Arm chair racerJust too addicted
Everybody takes there knocks sometimes jeb, lol
I hope this is as entertaining for you as the last one.
Strengthening the UN sounds good to me. Are you saying we should through out 60 years of progress because of some corruption? So does that mean we should have quit supporting the US gov't after Nixon's corruption or any recent corruption? And not listen to police officers because there have been corrupt ones? Maybe we should all folow your lead and live a life of anarchy because some people have been corrupt, instead of bringing them to justice and working on something that could help the world be a safer place. What did Woodrow Wilson know anyway.
We have friendly relations with Qatar? i thought we didn't support dictators? There last election for representatives was in 1973, back when a cruel dictator ruled it. The SAME representatives are in office now, but there is a good dictator now, ironically the son of the cruel one. Kuwait is some democracy too. When 10% of the country is allowed to vote, people really get their voice out. Oh yea, it really doesn't matter, they have a hereditary monarch. Just like our big brother England had in the 1700's. Libya, the same country responsible for the Pan Am bombing in '88 is our luke warm ally? Sounds like we're shaking hands with the devil here. I was also under the impression that we were letting China do whatever they wanted because the big business in the US sees a 1 billion person market waiting to be tapped. I'm not sure, but if your saying that all our recent conquests and invasions aren't to help our economy, your wrong. Thats why i brought up Honduras. There are people getting killed there, ever hear of "The Missing". Theres alot of Americans on that list. The corruption and poverty are horrible there. We don't hear about that because its one of our (the US's) companies causeing all the corruption. But hey, we sure have cheap banannas.
This is a more serious question, i might be worng but when did we set up a Jewish state? I thought Israel foght and won their country themselves. And i also thoguht they successfully defended it too?
Thats it, all i have to say. I believe middle east politics are much more complex than you give credit to. I also think that maybe your being a little optimistic by believing we are in Iraq to better the world. We're there for oil. And, for the record, i haven't seen Farenheit 911.
Damn good post 3 or die, and thanks for sacrificing 5 years for our country
Last edited by cliff2302; 12-14-2004 at 08:42 PM. Reason: wasn't done
At The Back Of The Pack
Arm chair racerAt the back of the pack
Wow lets talk about religion next ?x?XXXX?????XXX????
Banned
The day begins with 3WW
Thank you for your service to this country.
There are a lot more abominations in our country's history I could name, but I dont see your point. Are you saying that because there were some people in the US government who happened to be white, and did evil things to other people because they were not white, that white Americans today, whose ancesters came to this country long after these events ended are responsible and have no right to express moral opinions on these subjects? There is plenty of hypocracy in Washington, but I dont believe anybody there today supports these past actions, and I dont believe people should be held responsible just for being of the same race as those who did.
We developed nukes because some guy named Hitler had vowed to take over the world, and was literally months away from producing German nukes. We know how many lives the nukes took in Japan. We will never know many lives they saved to compare that number to, and know whether it was the best decision. If insisting that people who make Hitler look like Martha Stewart not posess nukes is hypocracy, then I am surely a hypocrate.
I fully agree every religion has has its crackpot splinter group which is why I was careful to cite Islamic Fundamentalists, and not Islam. I think you picked a poor example though, since Koresh posed no threat to his neighbors, but the KKK is a perverted form of Christianity. Koesh is a better example of goverment abuse since 80 some men, women and children were killed for SUSPICION of posessing illegal firearms. People have a right to be any kind of crackpot, and worship whatever they wish, until they begin to act on religious beliefs that tell them my family must die.
We have no right to tell others what to do? If I beleive you intend to kill me,and you have made it clear you want me dead, and your "innocent" buddy hands you a gun, I have the right to kill both of you before it actually changes hands. We have a right to attack terrorists, and those who supply them.
Banned
The day begins with 3WW
Progress? Can you name one? How about 60 years of demise.
Nixon was removed along most members of his party for about 20 years, along with greatly weakening the presidency for years.
If there are corrupt officers in a good core department they can be removed. If you only a few honest officers in a corrupt core department, it must be dismantled and begun again from scratch. Putting good officers in a corrupt cored department will not make the department good. It will more likely corrupt the officers.
How does strengthening the UN and giving them more power and control accomplish bringing its corrupt membership to justice?
Apparently not as much as he thought he did, because the actions of Wilson's League of Nations created in 1920 after WWI, and their handling of Germany caused Germany to withdraw their membership in 1933 and was a primary cause of WWII. Japan also withdrew form the League of nations in 1933. It evolved and was tranferred into the UN in 1946 after WWII because of its history of failures. I can name a few dozen failures over its 84 year history that cost millions of lives, but I have great difficulty in coming up with any major crowning achievements of the UN /League of Nations. Maybe you can help me with that?
Who said we dont support dictators? We have a long history of supporting dictators when it would appear to be our best choice of options available. Sometimes our best option is to temporarily support a dictator even knowing we may have to unravel him in the future. We dont like dictators, but most sworn vegetarians will eat meat when they are starving. Ever hear of our great WWII ally, named Stalin? Patton wanted to attack Russia at the end of WWII because we all knew what he was. Yes we support Qatar's over allowing it to be taken over by Sadaam's government. This is the simple "why they dont hate us" answer. I have no idea if your Kuwaiti voter number of 10% is correct, but even accepting that as able voters, how does it compare to every other country in the Middle East? Any idea how what percentage of Americans were allowed to vote in 1790? Youll find striking similarities. You had to be a white male and own proerty. I dont understand your willingness to save a lost cause like the UN that has a corrupt core, but want to scrap evolving and improving democracies while the continuously improve.
Who said Libya was an ally of any kind? They were a terrorist nation, and our sworn enemy. They saw that we were serious with out "war on terror", and coughed up their nuclear program. They are not an ally, but that prospect is beginning to look a lot more attractive to them these days.
China needs US trade a lot more than US needs China trade. Why is trade or profit such an evil concept to you? Sure we get inexpensive goods, and we have a new market to sell ours, but National Security is a lot more complicated than having the biggest gun. China wants US trading very badly. Badly enough to exert pressure their little parasites like North Korea to keep the US happy so as not to damage those trade relations. Economics can be a more powerful weapon than a military to those smart enough to use it.
How did going to Iraq or Afghanistan benefit our economy? What did we gain, economically? For that matter, name ANY military conflict that benefitted our economy, and tell me how? Yes, 3rd world counties all over the world can be very unsafe for foreignors, who by the way, choose to go there voluntarily, but in South and Central America, the great threat is organized crime in the drug industry, not puppet US Banana Lords. My brother spend 15 years in that region in Army Special Forces working in conficts that you dont read about. Youd be surprised at where we have military personnel. I just dont get the argument libs always make that we should never be using military action where we are using it, because we should be using it somewhere else. No matter where we go, you guys always have a list of places that we should be instead. Why do you guys always want to talk about something besides the subject being discussed? Maybe you should outline your plan about pulling all troops from Iraq to attack the Banana Lords of Honduras. But then which is it now? Honduras or Afghanistan? Surely we cant be at both places!
Israel's borders were setup in 1947 by the UN. Yes, they defended it because the UN, in typical fashion, would not defend those borders it established and in 1948, neighboring Arabs States tried to "alter" those borders with military force. They tried again in the 60's. They have never stopped, which is what the entire Middle east conflict is all about, which is really something you should know if you are going to bash the efforts to bring stability there, and call for apologies from the US because we wont accept extermination of the Jews as the viable resolution that Arafat wanted. Arafat is the father of modern terrorism, and the UN created that terrorism in 1947.
I dont think YOU have any clue as to how complicated the middle east situation is if you think it as anything to do with oil or economics. I dont understand how complex it is? It is a confict of religions, that are complicated by many, many varying factions within each of the 3 major religions. As soon as you figure that out, your solutions might be a little more realistic than issuing an apology.
New to the board
Arm chair racerNew to the board
Only have 1 thng to say on this whole mess:
If you truly support Bush and his policies, why are you here typing on an internet message board and not in Iraq, fighting the 'good fight'?
All a bunch of chickenhawks.
Banned
The day begins with 3WW
I have two reasons. The first is that a platoon full of 20 somethings dont want to have to depend upon a 43 year old man to watch their backs, even if he is in good physical condition. The 2nd reason is that my priority in life now is to fulfill my obligation to protect my own child here, regardless of how much Id like to be there protecting you.
In the first Gulf War, I did seek enlistment. I told them I had no desire for a military career, but that I wished to do my duty so that some 18 or 19 year old kid would not have to. I was told that the war would be over before I ever got out of basic training, and I would never see combat, at least in that conflict. Turns out they were right. Nor would I have seen combat in this one.
My question for you: If you truly believe we are evil invaders of a peaceful nation, why are you attacking my opinions on a message board, and calling me a "chickenhawk," and not over there being a human shield, reasoning with the beheaders who kill relief workers, and apoligizing for having been born a non-Islamic Fundamentalist?
Fighting a war requires all kinds of people in all kinds of capacities, both civilian and military, and many never see combat. Its easy to call people names because of their opinions, when cant defend yours. Cliff really does his homework, which is why I enjoy debating him. I have enough belief and passion in my opinions to research them thoroughly. I am no debater. I just learn anything I can about things I feel strongly about, and world affairs is one of them.
Putting Priorities in Order, Busier than ever.
Catch me if you can
I have tried and tried to enlist. But do to a birth defect in my arms I can't. Since I can't enlist I have instead given the troops my 100% support. If I find a way to help them I do it. It is the least I can do.
But I would rather be there in person.
Howdy
At The Back Of The Pack
Arm chair racerFirst time rider
There are all kinds of what if's. I understand, and respect other peoples opinions. We live in a democracy. My family has a history with even the japan topic you have mentioned. My granfather died this past april. He was near deaf his entire adult life becouse he was a gunner on board a us navy ammo supply ship. He spent most of his days shooting camakasie planes before they sank his ship. Apparently he was one of a few guys that would sit in the chair and hold thedown till the plane broke apart.He also struggled with skin cancer becouse sun screen was not used on the ships, guess its hot out on the ocean. I hear what you are saying. If I was north korea, and the US told me I couldnt have nukes ,I would make them too, and laugh while I did it. Our sh** stinks as bad as anybody elses. We just dont think so.
We could go on and on, but thats what the vote is for. I support troops. I am not so political, I am gonna go work on my trike now. Have great holiday guys...Bill
New to the board
Arm chair racerNew to the board
Sorry everyone. I realize my comments should not be made at this board. There is a time and a place and this is neither.
"In the first Gulf War, I did seek enlistment. I told them I had no desire for a military career, but that I wished to do my duty so that some 18 or 19 year old kid would not have to. I was told that the war would be over before I ever got out of basic training, and I would never see combat, at least in that conflict. Turns out they were right. Nor would I have seen combat in this one"
This is one of the most honourable things I have ever read on this issue. I wish more people thought like this guy. I guess my point was that if you are so gung-ho about the Iraq war then you have to contribute. Don;t leave the mess to the kids to handle when they had no input into the matter. It's incredibly frustrating to see some 300 lb welfare mother supporting this when they have not sacrificed one iota of their time, efforts, or kin for the effort.
Power User
Teaching quads a lesson
Don't you see there is not any truth to that statement? We have an army of volunteers, not draftees, impressees, etc. etc. etc. American citizens aren't forced into military service. These kids you speak of joined up on their own accord. A soldier's job is to follow orders. Some make the ultimate sacrifice because they chose too, not because they were forced to. And to me that's very powerful. I know there are some soldiers who don't want to be there. Unfortunately (thanks to our mainstream media) you probably hear more about those than the thousands who are over there serving honorably and doing what their country asks of them, whether right or wrong in your, or my, opinion.
Soldiers can vote. Citizens vote. If you don't live in this country, I'm sorry but your opinion means nothing, you have no say. That may sound like American arrogance but it's the truth. After our last election it's obvious the majority of us don't care about world opinion. September 11th changed us. They attacked us, we took the fight to them on their ground. They being a clandestine enemy of terrorists that know no borders. In the process, we have liberated oppressed peoples in two countries and removed a brutal dictator (Hussein) and an oppressive regime (Taliban). If you can't see that as positive outcome of this, then you just can't get past your America or Bush hatred. And if Iraq never attacked us or harbored terrorists, why are they operating there now?
Personally I feel terrible for the loss of life. Especially the innocent non-combatant civilians that die because of an enemy that chooses to hide among civilians. But for our soldiers that lay down their lives I feel pride right along with the sorrow. After high school, I chose not to serve. And that's a great thing about our country. Being able to choose. Though I've never served I support our troops 1000% and refuse to discredit their sacrifices by speculating that they are forced to fight for an unjust cause.
Especially because someone on an internet message board wants to group me and thousands of other hard working Americans that keep this country moving as 300lb fat welfare mother chicken hawks who don't contribute.
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At The Back Of The Pack
Arm chair racerFirst time rider
This is getting kinda ugly, but did you (TimSr) just show support for a person who was banging little girls, and their mothers, who husband were next door in the other room, all becouse he was able to brainwash them into thinking he was jesus? If the police show up you dont shoot them, or put on your gas mask and climb into a burried bus. Those comments have suprised me greatly. In awe actualy....
Just Too Addicted
Arm chair racerJust too addicted
The presidency is stronger now than it ever has been. Congress went from first to worst pretty quickly, which is too bad. This nation was built on the foundation of representative (hope thats a word) democracy, and now one person is getting too much power. And i'm not talking about W in particular, i'm talking about the presidency in general.
The Leaque of Nations was a skeleton of what Wilson wanted. It was useless, i agree. But, it was not at all as strong as Wilson wanted, shown by the fact that we didn't join it in 1920. And the repercussions of the Versailles treaty were the main cause of the war, not a weak LON.
Can i ask you what we would have if we didn't have the UN? I know that its not doing so hot and needs reform, but if we didn't have it, what would be a better way to regulate the affairs of the world? I support this institution because i feel it could be very helpful. You are absolutley right, it isn't effective right now and needs major change in order to be. I support this more than so called developing democracies. Your dead on about the fact that only 10% of American's were able to vote in the 1800's, but the fact is that the US had votes every year. Qatar hasn't had a vote since 1973.
I'll try to clear things up here. Looking back at this post, it looks like we aren't on the same page. You are saying that problems in the middle east are cause by religion, and you are absolutely correct. They are fighting with themselves over religion. But where the US comes into play is when we go in and try to regulate governments by assasinating people or supporting revolts, and that makes them not like us. The reason we go in in my opinion is for economic gain, oil. Now, i think that all the "human rights" that we are trying to spread is a mask for the fact that we want cheaper oil. We are protecting some of the great oil rigs in the Middle East right now, and i don't think this is a coincidence.
To support this, i used the Honduras example, which guess i didn't explain fully. Here's some clarification. If we really cared about human rights, wouldn't we tell the Standard Fruit Co to stop hindering the economy of Honduras? This would take no troops, no invasion, a simple bill or regulation on their company. The reason we look the other way in my eyes is because we are benefiting from this. Like you said about Sudan, if we really wanted to protect human rights and stop the genocide, wouldn't we just go in there and set up a new government?
Isn't China developing nuclear weapons as we speak? It doesn't seem to me like they really are trying to protect our trade relationship.
Tim, i'm glad you enjoy our debates. You are a very educated man and i have a very hard time understanding how you know so much about everything we talk about. You are helping me form my ideas, some of which i am stealing from you, and some of which that i am learning by my own research that i wouldn't otherwise do. I just hope i'm not making too many enemies, i'm pretty sure Holic wants to use me as a moving target
At The Back Of The Pack
Arm chair racerFirst time rider
Definetly well put. This post alone contains more history then I ever learned in high school. Seriously, go back and read it. Kinda gets taken for granted here on a board. Happy holidays folks.
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