1984 Honda 200es starter issue

[jdtench]

Okay, I do know I should search the forum first before asking for help and I have done so. I have scoured all over the different posts and none of them have what I am experiencing. Here it is.
I just rebuilt this trike last year. A fresh top end rebuild and some elbow grease to get it looking pretty and it was at 90% done. It was rideable so I rode it. I put a fresh battery in it and it worked great. Towards the end of the summer, the battery seemed like it was losing its charge and wouldn't start the trike with the starter. After I rode it a bit, it seemed like it would charge and would then crank with the starter. When I got the machine out today to start it the first time this year, it again would not start on the button. I wasn't surprised because of what had been happening last year. So, I decided I was going to charge the battery. I hooked it up to the charger, set it to 2 amps, and after 90 seconds it said fully charged... So, I put it back in the trike and I heard a clicking coming from where the starter solenoid is. After a couple of more tries, the clicking stopped and now there is just a faint noise that occurs when the button is released (still coming from the same region). The neutral light will dim when the button is pushed so I know it is drawing current. Signs point to the solenoid being bad. I got out the digital multimeter and tested the starter when the button was being pressed and it is getting no power. This sounds textbook except...
The trike will run, I pull it and it starts fine. However, when I flip on the headlight, the neutral light goes completely dim. There is also about a 1.5 second delay from flipping the switch until the light coming on. I know a little bit of dimming will occur on the neutral light, but this seems extreme. I am wondering if I have two separate problems here. I know the '84 200es BRs are notorious for wacky electrical issues and I was hoping one wouldn't find mine, but this is what is going on. I know my battery charger is still good and I do believe the battery is charged. If it is the starter solenoid, okay, I can fix that. But, if something else is going on to cause the weirdness with the neutral light, I'm at a loss. I wanted to post this to see if any one thinks the two are related. Thanks!

[cajun66]

Check all your grounds?

[jdtench]

I'll check the negative battery terminal ground tomorrow. Thanks!

[jdtench]

Sanded down the negative ground and that didn't help. I did hook a jumper cable to the battery, put the negative on an engine mount, and bumped the starter connector with the positive end and it started the engine. So, it has to be the starter solenoid. Like I thought, textbook. I'll get this fixed and maybe mess with the light dimming issue at a later time.

[kb0nly]

Starter solenoid for sure, as you discovered... As for the lighting issue take apart your handlebar switch pod and clean up the contacts for the lighting switch. They get corroded and cause a high resistance connection, the current starts to flow they warm up from the resistance and make a better connection and then the lights come on. I kid you not, i know this sounds science fiction but i have had this happen three times now on trikes. Usually the contact show some signs of arcing from this happening but sometimes they just looked all corroded.

Also take apart the fuse holder under the seat and clean it up as needed, that can become a bad connection over time as well. Mine was doing the exact same thing regarding the starting, i couldn't find an exact match on the 200ES starter solenoid so i bought one close to it and then spliced on the wiring connector from the old solenoid and that fixed it right up.

[Gearheadtom]

if the solenoids are the same as the 200e and the 200m, you can take it apart and clean the contacts on the inside, just be careful that you don't break the wires off where they connect on the inside.

[kb0nly]

The one i had was permanently riveted together but i have seen the ones you talk about that can be taken apart.

[jdtench]

I ordered one and will be putting it on soon. When I have some free time I'll look at the connectors. Do I have to take apart the assembly mounted on the handlebars...or are the connectors all in the headlight housing?

[kb0nly]

All the wiring connections are in the headlight, but i would check the starter switch also. Remove the screw from the bottom of the switch pod on the handlebar and the start button will come off and you can check and clean it. Usually the one wire breaks off in there and needs to be resoldered.

[jdtench]

Replaced the starter solenoid...that didn't help. I checked the start button, removed it, everything still intact. I guess I'll pull the wiring out of the headlight and inspect all of that next. Neutral light still goes dim when pressed though. Starter does start the engine when I bump it with jumper cables from the truck. Anything else I might be missing? Is there a ground that I could be missing? I cleaned the negative battery ground and that didn't help. Any others?

[kb0nly]

Could be the start lockout relay by the voltage regulator on the back of the battery box. I forget what Honda actually called it but its just a relay used to keep starter from working unless in neutral and since its wired in with the neutral light it could be causing the dimming. I eliminated it on mine. Just have to cut and splice the two wires the relay switches. You can unplug it and jumper with a piece of wire to test first.

[jdtench]

That's the part that I replaced. I'll jump it tomorrow and see if that's the issue.

[tri again]

Could be the start lockout relay by the voltage regulator on the back of the battery box. I forget what Honda actually called it but its just a relay used to keep starter from working unless in neutral and since its wired in with the neutral light it could be causing the dimming. I eliminated it on mine. Just have to cut and splice the two wires the relay switches. You can unplug it and jumper with a piece of wire to test first.

I went through that with mine, maybe called rev limiter in there too so you can't go full throttle in reverse.
sorry to say I gave up and traded them off.
The only usable info I have is that people have replaced entire harnesses only to admit the old harnesses were probably ok but due to the fact that they HAD to go through every connection, they magically work.

I'm trying to figure out if he changed the solenoid but still only works with a jump from the truck.

I spent weeks on mine going blind with a wire diagram before I gave up.
AND I had a know working perfect 200es right next to it to swap KNOWN working parts with.

I must be gettin' old.

I bet it's something simple.
I'd check Engine and frame grounds first and then every other connection on the machine.

More fun to work on near a toolbox than out in the woods, for sure.
Glad it starts perfectly with the rope.
Saves a lot of 'if's'.

[kb0nly]

Its either that small relay, starter solenoid, or a bad connection somewhere thats all i have ever dealt with on them.

That small relay is inline with the start button, so if the start button isn't working thats the most likely cause if the wiring in the button is ok. There is four wires to that small relay, this is not the starter solenoid its another small relay on the back of the battery box by the regulator, there is a gray and yellow/red wire, leave them alone. There is two Green/Red wires, those two need to be jumped. I just looked at the schematic they called it the inhibitor relay. Basically this is how it works, the neutral switch provides the ground for the neutral light and the inhibitor relay coil, when you put it in neutral it turns on the neutral light and turns on that small relay, which closes the connection for the start button to turn on the ground to the starter solenoid and turn over the starter. So without that relay closing your start button won't work. I cut Green/Red wires from the plug, soldered them together and put on some heatshrink and just tapped the harness back up to that relay. Since your getting a dimmed neutral light, which i was at one time also, i just unplugged that small relay from the remaining two wires, the coil in the relay draws power when connected, and if the coil is going bad it will draw even more, causing the light to dim.

If you want you can unplug that inhibitor relay, strip a piece of wire and shove it in the terminals for the two Green/Red wires and see if the starter works, if that fixes it, just leave the relay unplugged and splice those Green/Red wires together and done!

[jdtench]

You guys have been great. I have plenty of ideas to try. Didn't get to look at it today, but I will look to see if I can find that relay. kb0nly, thank you for looking up that part name. I have the shop manual, owners manual, and wiring schematic for the machine and none of them (that I could find) mention the inhibitor relay. But, I was able to find pictures of what it looks like and am pretty sure I can find it thanks to you giving me the actual name for it. So, here's what I'm going to try:

1) Use a screwdriver and jump the solenoid to see if it starts that way (to test the solenoid)
2) Find the inhibitor relay and jump the Green/Red wires (will leave the gray and yellow/red wire completely alone attached to the inhibitor relay)

Oh, I just installed a new DG exhaust on it. The other one had a broken pipe on the muffler pipe where the head pipe and muffler connect (which, by the way, is still usable if you're comfortable welding. The head pipe is in good shape, the muffler pipe looks a little thin, but the muffler itself is in good shape.) The DG is a lot louder than I was thinking it would be, but I didn't want to fork over the extra $ for stock exhaust. The DG was much cheaper. I am also going to tackle replacing the clutch shoes and discs later in the spring, but that should be straight forward. These electrical issues are a pain to diagnose (well, has been made easier thanks to you guys).

EDIT: I found this picture on another website of someone else having the same issue. They found a shop manual reference for the inhibitor relay in a TRX200 Fourtrax manual.