Atc 70 hellllllp pllllllllease !! Im going insane !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[barnett468]

Hello

Trike savior is apparently a pretty sharp guy and he beat me to your probable problem based on your last post. Ill just refine what he is mentioning and add a couple things you can check out.

You said it occasionally won’t restart after sitting for 2 hours. This means that since it was running fine when you stopped it and it has had 2 hours for all the electrical components to cool off it the problem is not from hot electrical components.

2. You say the plug is ALWAYS wet when you remove it, is this still correct? If so you are obviously getting fuel as you suspected. This leads to the most probable cause which is INTERMITTENT FLOODING. Now why is it intermittent is the question. The main causes are a float that occasionally sticks because it may be a CHINESE CARB, a float level that is to high, debris from the tank getting stuck in the needle, the needle intermittently not seating properly because it is a CHINESE CARB, too large of a main jet, too high of a slide needle position or too high of a “choke” on the jet needle.

You do have spark when the plug is installed don’t worry about that anymore now lets try to find out why it is flooding. There are a few ways to do this.

a. If your carb is CHINESE throw it away for the two reasons mentioned above and buy a new Mikuni or Kehin and never have trouble again. I’m quite serious.
b. Does it ever burble upon acceleration like it might be rich, especially while under load, if so it is too rich?
c. Does it burble more when it is hot, if so it is too rich?
d. If it burbles on a hill ONLY it may also be that your float level is too high.
d. Try starting it with the choke OFF and the engine is cold. If it starts easily it is jetted too rich but this may not be your only problem.
e. Does it always start every single time when it is ice cold like in the morning?
f. Does it ever restart when it is warm, if so how frequently 5 times out of 10 etc?
g. Can you EVER immediately restart it after shutting it off when it is warm?
h. Does it always fail to restart when it is warm?
i. What brand is your plug, NGK, Champion, N/D etc. If it is a Champion your plug is too COLD. Champions use a revers heat rage from everyone else, 1 being cold and 10 being hot. This should not be your problem but put a D7 NGK in it if you have a Champion and try that.
j. Lower the float level a little and try that.

Your answers to these questions should help pinpoint the cause of the flooding if in fact that is what the problem is.
You said you cleaned the tank and the petcock should have a built in filter in it still hopefully, so there should not be debris in your needle and seat.

If it was me I would throw away all the Chinese parts even if they work now you will be going through the same thing sooner than later with one of them failing.

Shame on you be an American and buy Japanese!

[Flossyb20]

Next time you have it running, start jiggling all you wire connections real good, and see if something may make it shut off...it's quite possible after years of being ridden that one of your connections is bad or corroded. Start at the handlebar switch and chase it all the way down to the stator...just a thought

[woodyatc]

Hi always difficult to start from cold, starts no problems when hot, all wires are conected ok i made sure of that, its always sparks i've pulled the plug and it sparks even when its failed to start, the plug is always wet, so im guessing it may be a problem wiyh flooding ? how do i get round that ? am i just best off push starting and usin the pull start when its warmed up ? to avoid flooding ? could a valve issue cause flooding ?

[barnett468]

Hi always difficult to start from cold, starts no problems when hot, all wires are conected ok i made sure of that, its always sparks i've pulled the plug and it sparks even when its failed to start, the plug is always wet, so im guessing it may be a problem wiyh flooding ? how do i get round that ? am i just best off push starting and usin the pull start when its warmed up ? to avoid flooding ? could a valve issue cause flooding ?

Your last post said it started right up when cold but would not restart 2 hours later but now you say the exact opposite. Can't help you much like this. I think i'm going to bail out very soon. I think if trike savior bails too you may be sol.

"ok so i removed the gas cap and it started after three pulls after being stood 24 hrs and ran fine (it has done this in the past though with the gas cap in place like i said its an intermitant starting problem" Drive it with the cap loose all day start and stop.

"Replacement parts are chine sets but it did start and run fine when they were fitted" REPLACE ALL CHINESE PARTS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THEM MAY NO LONGER WORK. The parts you removed were probably CHINESE also.

I asked you some other questions above. You need to do all those tests also and answer them exactly in detail or i can no longer help you.

CHINESE CARB YES OR NO!


It is a JAPANESE bike not a CHINESE one. There is a reason there are no CHINESE cars in the USA!

[woodyatc]

i'll check the wiring again but only just rewired it with all new wiring and conectors when i put in new points condensor and coil so i ca'nt see that being the problem ? think maybe its a flooding issue ? thanks for your help and continued imput much appreciated

[woodyatc]

Hi many thanks for your continued imput and support its very much appreciated, sorry if i've caused a bit of confussion ? the starting problem is always when its cold, it restarts no problems once its hot and been running a few mins, always resterts on one pull when its warmed up, the replacement carb is a Kehin (bought it from the US mail order, ot do'es seem to be running rich (smell heavily of gas when its runnung) burblres a bit on tick over but not so much under load ? plug is an NGK D6HS, i think its a problem with flooding now that all other problems have been illiminated, i always thought spark and timing were ok, should i try the old carb again ? as im not sure how to alter the float level ? i've set the fuel air mixture as it says in the manual (one full turn out from seated) Many thanks once again for your help, im based in England by the way and parts are scarse over here for the atc's usually only cheap chinease copies.

[barnett468]

i'll check the wiring again but only just rewired it with all new wiring and conectors when i put in new points condensor and coil so i ca'nt see that being the problem ? think maybe its a flooding issue ? thanks for your help and continued imput much appreciated

You just don't seem to be paying attention to the posts or just ignoring them because it's not what you want to hear. If you are so positive your CHINESE parts and CHINESE carb are fine then why are you here with a problem?

Both I and trike savior have already answered your flooding question. I told you how to fix it. If you want my answer you will have to read ALL my posts to find it. I don't want to answer that question anymore.

[woodyatc]

Hi again, the carb is a Kehin not a cheap copy, your post did say only go with a Kehin or Mikuni carb ? the only other part that is a cheap copy is the condensor (as i struggled to get hold of a genuine replacement) the points and coil are both oem replacements, sorry if i have offended you in some way ? im trying my best to get to the bottom of this problem, just im not realy that technicaly mineded, it appears to me that both you and trike saviour have been very helpfull and ponpointed the problem as a flooding issue, and im very gratfull for that, im just trying to get help on how to rectify this ? the carb i purchased is a Kehin brand new replacement for the Atc 70 that i bought from the US, could it possibly be jetted wrong ? how do i go about lowering the float level if that may be the problem ? once again i do appreciate your help

Regards

Gav.

[woodyatc]

Hi again (sorry to be apain) i think both you and Barnett468 have got to the bottom of the issue as a flooding one, many thanks for that, the carb i have on is a genuine Kehin brand new replacement for the Atc 70 that i bought from the US, do you think it could be jetted wrong causing the flooding issue ? Barnett468 thinks it could also be a problem with the float being set to high, any idea how i go about lowering the float ? failing that should i just go and rebuild and refit the original carb and see how that go'es ? Many thanks once again for your help and imput.

Regards

Gav.

[trike savior]

take it easy barnett dont you remember when you were first starting out, didn't know much and got flustered when you had a problem you couldnt fix. hes just having trouble explaining what hes finding. you cant expect everyone who works on these to be die hard mechanics like us, for some people its just a toy and a hobby and they're just trying to save the money of taking it to a shop. this site is for them too

but woody you need to read our posts more carefully because barnett did explain this.

you need to go through your entire fuel system. get yourself a five gallon bucket from home depot, lowes whatever. remove your tank and cap and dump it into bucket upside down. this will cause the fuel to rush out hopefully taking dirt and debris with it. take a look and see whats in the fuel. if there is a lot of stuff floating around you need to clean tank. while its empty inspect inside of tank for rust. what i normally do to clean it (and some of you green, tree huggers might not like this) is fill it with water till its full, slosh it around and quickly dump it out the cap hole. plugging fuel line holes will help. again you are trying to get everything to comeout with it. do this a few times. if you found your tank is rusty inside (not bright shiny metal) i suggest buying a gallon of "metal rescue" (look it up online) and using it on tank. ewither way your final step after you are confident it is clean and you are done with the water and metal rescue and the tank is empty, pour in some gasoline (not much, maybe a few oz's) put the cap on and slosh it around until fuel has hit everywhere. the idea here is to absorb any water into the fuel. then dump the water/ fuel into that five gallon bucket. if you want to save the fuel that came out of the tank before you do this that is fine but use a funnel with a fine screen to get junk out.

now your tank is clean but i would still suggest some tiny fuel filters you can find on ebay for both lines

cleaning your carb is as simple as making sure everything is clean. buy a can of brakleen that has a straw taped on it. you will also need an air compressor and a little air shooter with a tip you can use to blow out all the ports. take pics with your phone or camera of the carb so you know how it goes back together.
especially after you remove bowl. remove everything till you have a bare carb body with noothing on it. every screw, jet, carb slide (part that moves with throttle cable). put the straw on your can of brakleen and hit every hole with the brakleen and then the compressed air, this will blow any junk out of carb.

let us know when you remove bowl from carb if you find a brass float or a plastic float. if you find a brass float we have more to talk about. you need to look at the needle which is connected to the float and sits in a hole. it allows fuel in from tank. the tip should look like a perfect ^ (cone) if there are any worn spots it needs to be replaced. same goes for idle mix screw. it is the only other adjustment screw on carb that is not the one that contacts the carb slide

reassemble the carb and post what you have found on here. then we will talk about properly adjusting the carb once you have it back on

[fabiodriven]

I'm sorry, but I can't sit here and read all of these drawn out posts.

Barnett, take a pill man, please.

Woody, if you're sure that the trike is flooding and it's mostly only doing it when it's cold, let me give you some advice. I don't know the level of your experience so I'm going to simplify this as much as possible. Please do not take offense.

Every machine is going to be a little different than the next. If you're getting too much fuel on cold starts, then I suggest you try your cold starts WITHOUT using the choke. If you are not using the choke on cold starts (assuming you ARE getting too much fuel), then the next step would be to hold the throttle wide open while you pull the starter. Holding the throttle open will allow the engine more air to offset the excess in fuel you are getting, thus (hopefully) making it start. Please try this and let me know what happens.

[barnett468]

OK, woodtatc, I read your new posts and like them much better. I will not bail just yet. You can also thank trikesaviour I’m still here providing you’re happy I’m still here lol. Like fabiodriven I will also make it easy. In your case I would not disassemble the carburetor just yet especially since you say you just replaced it with a new kehin. If you eventually need to do this also, then write down all the jet sizes including the # on the brass tube that holds the main jet.

Ok, now if it were me I would do the following exactly as described before doing anything else. Others opinions may differ so just do what makes the most sense to you, don't just do that sounds the easiest otherwise you are not helping yourself.

Please feel free to post results as you get them especially those from the float bowl draining and cold starting tests even if you may not have finished all the other tests yet. These results will help the most at this point.

Are you turning your gas valve off over night? If not then your carburetor float needle may have a very tiny leak.since you say it won’t start after sitting for long periods but will restart after sitting for short periods. Is this statement still correct? If so then this would be the biggest and most likely of your starting problems but you still may have others. We'll see hopefully.

Is your gas old like 2 years or so? I assume it is not based on you tank cleaning comment.

1. Loosen gas cap AFTER bike has been sitting and listen for any suction noise when loosening. I would leave it loose during testing but you have to watch for gas spilling which would be nasty and dangerous so it’s up to you. Just don’t hit any bumps or ride it hard with it loose.

2. Trikesaviours idea is very good but for now you can simply close the gas tank fuel valve/petcock then put the carburetor float bowl overflow/drain hose into a small diameter or narrow clear glass then loosen the small screw on the bottom of the carburetor float bowl until gas flows out the tube. Let it drain until it stops then retighten screw. If you have water you will clearly see a line separating the water and the gas. Water does not mix with gas or oil. It is also heavier so it will sink to the bottom if there is any. If there is any water then stop and clean your tank before proceeding as trikesavior suggested. If there is any debris you will easily see that in the glass also. If there is a lot then clean tank. If there is a tiny amount don’t worry about right now and proceed to the next step. Reply back with results.

3. Next with the bike ice cold and gas cap loose and CHOKE OFF inspect the plug PRIOR to starting. It should be completely dry. What color is the plug, pale tan to white or medium to dark brown and is there any crust? Is there any black powder on it, if so this is a sign of a rich condition, so is a fairly dark plug. When was it last replaced? If dark or crusty replace it if not then proceed, we’ll look at it again later.

Reinstall plug, turn gas valve on and try starting several times with the CHOKE OFF as I and fabiodriven have previously mentioned but I suggest you do it with NO THROTTLE first otherwise it will defeat a purpose and it will confuse the issue. If it does not start then check plug again, it should be DRY. Note whether it is dry slighly damp or dripping with gas then dry it off, reinstall and try starting with 1/3 throttle. If it still does not start then note plug condition again, dry it off, reinstall and try starting at 2/3 to full throttle. If it still does not start then remove plug note condition and reinstall. NOW if the plug was dripping wet at 2/3-full throttle we move to plan B, which is try to get it running the way you normally do such as push start, starting fluid etc and do the other tests in my previous post. If you just can't get it started then you need to disassemble your carb see "carb disassembly" below. However if the plug is still dry after the 2/3-full throttle test your carb is NOT too rich, one mystery solved. See how that works? Pretty cool huh? At this point put your choke on 1/2 way only not full, not 2/3 then repeat the 3 starting procedures of 0 throttle, 1/3 throttle and 2/3-full throttle always checking plug after each step. If it does not start and the plug is still dry then redo the starting procedure with the choke at 2/3 not full. If it is still dry then try it all with full choke..

If your plug looked dripping wet during the entire first starting process with the CHOKE OFF and you always had spark, then your carb is delivering too much fuel for some reason and it will have to come apart. The confusing problem with this is that the hotter the weather and/or the hotter the motor gets the richer it becomes which increases starting difficulty but you're saying it starts easy when hot but not when cold. Do you start to see the problem with this?

Always check for spark like you have been when it doesn’t start.

CARB DISASSEMBLY - Remove everything write down all the jet sizes including the number on the brass tube that holds the main jet. It will easily push out by pressing on it from the float bowl side. Also get the number off the bottom of the slide and on the needle etc

If it you find nothing obviously wrong with the carb then you can try turning the fuel on with the float bowl off while lightly pushing up on the gas shut off needle in the float bowl area to see if there is an obvious leak. This will not show a small slow or intermittent leak. Warning this will obviously make a mess so don’t smoke.


Everything is important. Things you may consider as insignificant may not be. I personally read every word of every post I try to help on and it appears trikesavior does also.


I am giving you credit for being a bit more knowledgeable than others are based on a few of your replies while some of your other replies leave my head shaking and drive me nuts. I am still confident however that you can easily do everything we ask and reply back in detail just do things one at a time trying the easy ones first.


I am giving you credit for being a bit more knowledgeable than others are based on a few of your replies while some of your other replies leave my head shaking and drive me nuts. I am still confident however that you can easily do everything we ask and reply back in detail just do things one at a time trying the easy ones first.

PS- You now say you installed a new wiring harness. PLEASE don't tell me it is CHINESE too.


NON RELATED STUFF

Trikesaviour and Fabiodriven I for one am glad you are both here to help him but Fabiodriven please read all the posts so you can be current and also see exactly what trike savior and I are referring to.

Trikesaviour, thanks for being observant in noticing my “start with no choke” comment and for mentioning it here and it’s great you had a couple different ideas to add to mine and others. I certainly either don't know everything nor can remember it all anymore anyway. lol. I have also done what you emailed me about. Thanks

Fabiodriven the problem is that he is NOT sure his bike is rich that’s what I and trike savior have been trying to determine for him so far. As trike savior mentioned I already asked him to try starting with no choke in a previous post. If you read all the posts carefully you will see what I and trikesavoiur have been dealing with, with his conflicting information. By the time we're someone would have asked him at least most of the questions I already have any way so I'd rather give him the opportunity to see them all and do them at his own speed once he knows what they will be. It may also help him understand the purpose of the questions and where we are heading with them. I would love to take a "pill" unfortunately nu dog ate them all but at least she's happy. lol. Thanks again for you supportive post on my "Kawawasaki r and d engineer" post.

[woodyatc]

Hi trikesaviour, fabiodriven and barnett468, thanks agin for your continued help and imput it very helpfull and appreciated, im gonna do my best to work through them and get back to you all, im now at work for the next 7 days so it will be a while till i get chance to work on the trike again, i've allready cleaned and flushed out the tank,it clean inside no rust or debris, fresh fuel and fuel is not contaminated with water, allready cleaned out the old carb as you described prior to posting on here (silly the i did'nt note down jet sixes though) the plug is around 6 months old and is dark and sooty in appearance ? im now pretty sure it a problems with the trike running rich as you all point out, so like i say im gonna work through all of those steps / tips and try to find out why and rectify the problem, im just trying to get the trike running consistently for my son as he loves to ride it !! like i say when it do'es run it runs very well a great little trike, amd barnett468 no wiring harness was not chinese (they make good food though) thanks for your patience mechanics are not realy my strong point as you can easialy tell, give me a person to work on and im ok with that

[barnett468]

OK woodyatc.

Everything you just mentioned is exactly what I thought and was hoping you would say. But I did notice you originally said you had a new carb for it and now you reinstalled the old kehin. Did you do this during our process here. If so it doesn't help us not to know. Is the problem exactly the same. If so then we may have a problem, we'll have to see. What is your NEW carb again not the old one you just reinstalled?

Remind us you did this so we can start from there when you come back.

Bummer you can't fix and ride it for another 7 days now. Hey look on the brite side, if you work on a trike and mess up at least it or it's family won't sue you! lol.

Look forward to hear back, be safe!


FROM WOODTATC - "its had a carb clean out, then brand new carb," You see Fabiodriven, I told you so, lol.

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett468, its still on the new replacement carb at present (its a kehin) the old carb was a kehin also (although the two differ slightly in the way they look, (the new replacemant is a bit more modern looking) i did a thourgh clean out on the old carb and had the bike running on that one fine until the trike developed its intermitant running problem, thats when i put on the new replacement Kehin carb and new ignition parts in a bid to cure the intermitant starting problem, thats why i was thinking of putting the original Kehin carb back on and see if its still running rich on that ? (i do'nt remember it as running rich on the old carb ?) in fact it had problems with fuel delivery thats why i stripped it and cleaned it out, im still going to try all those other solutions aswell to try and get to the bottom of it ?
It definatley had problems with weak spark before thats why i put all the new ignition parts on
maybe the replacement carb is the problem ?

Regards

Gav.