Do you even run??

[lgordnier]

So I picked up my '82 200E about a year and a half ago now. Last fall, i lost spark while putting around - so I decided it was time to rebuild.
Popped the head off, replaced all the gaskets, coils, bearings, gas tank and forks, and put a new DG pipe on it - since the old one was rusted out.
But this is the funny part. You have to see this cam that I yanked out. I'm not even sure how this thing was running! haha

I did notice brand new rings and what appeared to be a new piston in there, when I ripped it apart. The guy I got it from said he had done just enough work to it, to get it running. It was in pretty poor shape, the front forks were held together by chain. So i'm wondering if someone just forgot to check theirwork after running for a while. I guess it may be partly my fault as well, since I ran it a few times (for an hour here and there) before checking anything.
I never did check all the tolerances of the valves and springs and all that fun stuff while i was in there, this is pretty much my first small-engine rebuild
Anyone else ever have this issue with a cam going out so badly? Maybe you've got a better idea what would have caused this?
And just for you tl;dr people, i'm NOT running with this, this is in a scrap metal pile now!

[JasonB]

is there a lobe COMPLETELY missing from the cam?! thats intense! never seen that before. how did the rest of the head look? you would think with the debris from that coming apart there would have been some pretty extensive engine damage

[fabiodriven]

It is amazing that machine would even run!

[lgordnier]

well I found quite a bit of shavings on the flywheel, no surprise there. The guy did mention changing the oil several times, but never mentioned what the oil looked like

[kebby28]

My 200es looked just like that and it was running fine just so hot it was burning my jeans. My oil screen was clogged with pieces of gasket. I bought the lower end of a kid and put my nice head on it... The lobes were round and it ran!

[trike savior]

yeah that happens. seen that on a 110 and recently on my 200x. take a good look at the cam journal on the cylinder head. if the lobes were that bad chances are the journal is bad too. that is what actually causes you to loose spark. the journal wears and the cam, and the spark advancer and magnet move farther and farther away from the pickup coil. eventually it moves far enough away that the magnet becomes too weak to be read by the pickup coil. there is a certain amount of gap (can find measurement in service manual) that you want but too much causes you too loose spark. there are 2 sets of screws on the pickup coil mounting plate. 1 moves the whole plate which is what allows you to change ignition timing and the 2nd adjust the height of the pickup coil. if you can move the pickup coil all the way down (closer to camshaft) and still cant get the proper gap, you need a new head.

[trike savior]

also check your rockers because they are likely damaged as well. also check your oil pump and the passage ways to the head. tolerances for the oil pump are in service manual as well

[barnett468]

Hello igordnier


Cam failures are most typically caused by using oils without the proper amounts of zddp. It’s an additive that contains zinc and phosphorous, which is specifically designed for use in all non roller cam 4 stroke motors. If you have been using regular automotive full mineral based motor oil like valvoline, penzoil etc this will cause premature wear on a non roller cam. The best anti wear protection is provided by oils containing levels of zzdp in the 1800ppm range. These are found in most full mineral based automotive racing motor oils like Valvoline VR1. The problem started when the oil mfgs began reducing the levels of zddp in their oils to keep up with the increasingly stringent EPA standards after the advent of the catalytic converter. The zddp contaminates the convertor. The problem is that they never told the general public so you think you are buying the same old school valvoline you were 30 years ago but your not.


Valvoline motorcycle oil

http://www.valvoline.com/products/br...cle-atv-oil/13


MSDS

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/4_stroke_motorcycle.pdf

[lgordnier]

there are 2 sets of screws on the pickup coil mounting plate. 1 moves the whole plate which is what allows you to change ignition timing and the 2nd adjust the height of the pickup coil. if you can move the pickup coil all the way down (closer to camshaft) and still cant get the proper gap, you need a new head.

Is this the same coil you're talking about? I didn't have much luck trying to use the second set of screws to move the head up and down - there's not any slack for the head to move around on - makes sense though.

My loss of spark was from a bad stator exciter coil - down in the flywheel. It tested bad when I got it home and started ripping things apart. I ended up replacing the generator coil, pickup coil and ignition coil anyway, found some decently priced replacements on eBay - now I have a few working backups =D

Thank you for your input, all.
barnett468 - thank you for your explanation about the non-roller rockers. I knew there was something in there for that, but didn't know what! Learned something new in the first few hours of the day, awesome!

[Gator72007]

Hello igordnier


Cam failures are most typically caused by using oils without the proper amounts of zddp. It’s an additive that contains zinc and phosphorous, which is specifically designed for use in all non roller cam 4 stroke motors. If you have been using regular automotive full mineral based motor oil like valvoline, penzoil etc this will cause premature wear on a non roller cam. The best anti wear protection is provided by oils containing levels of zzdp in the 1800ppm range. These are found in most full mineral based automotive racing motor oils like Valvoline VR1. The problem started when the oil mfgs began reducing the levels of zddp in their oils to keep up with the increasingly stringent EPA standards after the advent of the catalytic converter. The zddp contaminates the convertor. The problem is that they never told the general public so you think you are buying the same old school valvoline you were 30 years ago but your not.


Valvoline motorcycle oil

http://www.valvoline.com/products/br...cle-atv-oil/13


MSDS

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/4_stroke_motorcycle.pdf

I have wondered this about our trikes but havent seen it mentioned here like in auto forums, i ran an additive (zinc) from comp cams in a old flat tappet cammed truck i had for these cam issues, seen lots of guys loose cams that didnt run it in autos.

I have some of this zinc additive left, is it ok to run in trikes?
wont harm the clutches?

[kb0nly]

I have been running standard old automotive grade oil in my trikes and atv's for 20+ years and never had a cam or rockers burn up. So i highly doubt its just the oil at work. The zddp additive is another one of those snake oil products that i don't put much stock in. I have a snowblower with a Tecumseh engine on it, 1973 model, its run nothing but standard automotive grade oil its whole life, sure back in the day it had some additive in it by nature of the oil being sold, but for the last 20 years of its life its been off the shelf 5w-30 motor oil in it. I tore the motor down two years ago and there was no cam or tappet wear beyond normal use.

I have also torn apart many of the Honda trike motors, and i have never paid extra for motorcycle oil, no issues due to "regular" oil. I run Castrol GTX which is a synthetic blend. My 200ES shifts so much smoother since running GTX in it, it had Havoline in it from the previous owner, it always slipped slowly into gear or would clunk hard into gear, i tried adjusting it many times, then did a oil change to GTX because its what i had on the shelf for all my small engines. What a difference, smooth as silk and quick shifts now.

[C.J]

^ +2 about snake oil. I run nothing but 20w-50 in ALL my machines, ATV or lawn equipment etc, and have never had any kind of problems.

[trike savior]

I agree. I run straight 30 weight in all my small engines and never had a problem. (sae 30 not 10w30)

after thinking about it both engines I found with the cams looking like that, had been assembled with gasket maker. which I think blocked up the oil passages to the head. I don't mind gasket maker for covers and what not, but not on cylinder and head mounting surfaces. always fresh gaskets in those areas.

and before I had tools to check oil pumps myself I took them to dealer to be checked. they even said they very rarely see a bad oil pump. like 1% of the time. they are so simple on these bikes they practically last forever.

[fabiodriven]

I have been running standard old automotive grade oil in my trikes and atv's for 20+ years and never had a cam or rockers burn up.

For those of you recommending running automotive oil in trikes, you are dead wrong.

I've never seen any rocker or engine damage result from using automotive oil in a trike engine, but that's not the issue. The issue with using automotive oil in any engine with a wet clutch is, well, the clutch. Automotive oil does not have the proper additives to support a wet clutch. This is not my opinion, this is fact.

[kebby28]

I agree, but I have never found a gasket for the valve/cam cover on the 200 motors. It says in the manual to use gasket maker but warns of getting it in the oil port next to the backside of the cam. I was also confused about the little rubber plug next to the camshaft and couldn't find any info on it anywhere so I decided that was just where they had to drill to make the port and the plug has to be in. I was so confused because it almost looked like hardened gasket maker and it gave me that feeling of "oh, thats why the top end is smoked" but... that wasn't the case.