'84 Honda 200ES, Poor Running... Ignition?

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce


Ok, I just looked at an advancer in the link below. It looks like the weights stop on the upright tabs. You can compare yours to this to see if it appears worn [the one in the photo does not] irregardless here’s an easy way to limit it’s amount of total advance. I have done the following before on many advances.

Get a piece of thin wall, non reinforced rubber tubing from either the hardware store or auto parts store that is around 1/4” id [gas line is WAY too thick] and 6” long. Cut two pieces that are the same size length as distance from the base of the weight stop to just under the top where it has the little nub on each end [the trapped height] then put a small amount of grease on them and install them. Put a little grease on the back side if the spring touches it but it should just barely graze it if at all if the tubing thickness is correct.

Do your stops look worn on the sides, any photos?


Spark advancer photo

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Honda-A...-/111068241855

[tvpierce]

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] does your pipe get red and if so under what condition and how long does it take?

Yes, it gets red hot with the advance able to function, and while sitting at idle. I haven't specifically measured the length of time it takes to get red hot, but I can say with some certainty that it's between 2 & 5 minutes, because it is not red hot when I've shut it down after just a couple of minutes, but it is red hot when I've shut it down after about 5 minutes. I know, not scientific... but at least a ballpark figure.

Hello tvpierce
With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] does your bike run well or have a flat spot [like lean] or a burble] like rich? ¼, ½ or full throttle acceleration.

It starts and idles well, but it idles very high: I'm guessing 1500 - 2000 RPM (I don't know the exact RPM because my automotive meter with tach doesn't seem to work on this motor -- don't know why.) To be honest, I don't feel qualified to judge whether it's a lean or rich stumble. The stumble comes on at about 1/4 throttle -- just a little bit off idle. If I continue to give it more throttle (1/2, 3/4, even full) it will never stall, it just continues to bog.

If it burbles/stumbles, is it worse or less than with the mechanical advance wired closed at 0 advance?

The severity is about the same, but the symptom feels different. I presume because the timing is severely retarded.

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] approximately how far beyond the factory timing mark does it fire ie. 1/4” 1/2”? I can’t possibly imagine it has more than ¼” more because even that would be an enormous amount for the mechanical advance to wear. Now you can tell me you have an adjustable timing lite and it over advances “X” degrees, lol.

No, no fancy adjustable timing light. :-)
I'm not sure how far advanced it goes. I'll have to recheck making a note of that. I can check tonight after work.

[tvpierce]

Hello tvpierce


Ok, I just looked at an advancer in the link below. It looks like the weights stop on the upright tabs. You can compare yours to this to see if it appears worn [the one in the photo does not] irregardless here’s an easy way to limit it’s amount of total advance. I have done the following before on many advances.

Get a piece of thin wall, non reinforced rubber tubing from either the hardware store or auto parts store that is around 1/4” id [gas line is WAY too thick] and 6” long. Cut two pieces that are the same size length as distance from the base of the weight stop to just under the top where it has the little nub on each end [the trapped height] then put a small amount of grease on them and install them. Put a little grease on the back side if the spring touches it but it should just barely graze it if at all if the tubing thickness is correct.

Do your stops look worn on the sides, any photos?

I don't have a photo - will get one this evening. I know mine have the rubber pads on the stops -- they look to be OEM.

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce


Thanks for a full and detailed reply however I’m sorry but by based upon all your previous comments and the ones pasted below I’ve determined unequivocally that your bike is doing things that are near IMPOSSIBLE therefore I have conclusively determined it is possessed to a point where not even the minister from the exorcist movie can help you, please LOSE my number!



I don't have a photo - will get one this evening. I know mine have the rubber pads on the stops -- they look to be OEM.


Ok, great, however that’s a bad sign, your parts are not cooperating, lol. The rubber stops will probably be smashed in enough to allow maybe around 8 degrees more advance over stock [that’s just a guess] which isn’t enough to cause as big of a problem that you are experiencing. If you are lucky they are smashed a lot and/or they are thin and some new home made ones will be thicker.

If your timing lite flashes around 3/8” or more past the full advance timing mark [around 20 degrees] with your advancer as it currently is [just unwired] then the greatest contributor to your excessive full advance is your NEW $5.00 CHINESE CDI [shipping included] simply because it would be near [but not completely] impossible for a stock unmodified advancer to wear out that much especially since the OEM rubber stops are still on it.

xxxxx

Yes, it gets red hot with the advance able to function, and while sitting at idle.


Is the ignition timing correct at idle with the mechanical advance working, if not then your advance springs are extremely weak and need to be replaced?

If it is not advanced at idle then it sounds like an air leak to me, did you previously check for those?

Did it idle too high with your previous carb?

Xxxxx

I haven't specifically measured the length of time it takes to get red hot, but I can say with some certainty that it's between 2 & 5 minutes, because it is not red hot when I've shut it down after just a couple of minutes, but it is red hot when I've shut it down after about 5 minutes. I know, not scientific... but at least a ballpark figure.


Great description, WAY scientific for me for this particular problem. Same answer and questions as above.

xxxxx

It starts and idles well, but it idles very high: I'm guessing 1500 - 2000 RPM (I don't know the exact RPM because my automotive meter with tach doesn't seem to work on this motor – don't know why.)


Again, close enough for me for now. Same answer and questions as above.

xxxxx

To be honest, I don't feel qualified to judge whether it's a lean or rich stumble.


Honesty is ALWAYS best in my opinion. Your lack of qualification in this area are totally irrelevant to me. If need be you will be an expert before we’re done. The basics are really very simple, a lean condition never stumbles it simply just doesn’t increase the engine rpm as quickly if at all when the throttle is opened. Both rich and lean conditions are typically most noticeably while riding the bike. There you are now more qualified than many, lol.

Xxxxx

The stumble comes on at about 1/4 throttle -- just a little bit off idle. If I continue to give it more throttle (1/2, 3/4, even full) it will never stall, it just continues to bog.


I interpret the word “bog” to be a lean condition others don’t. Do you mean it is going from rich to lean?

Does the RPM continue to increase, in other words will it always reach full rpm approximately?

xxxxx

The severity is about the same, but the symptom feels different. I presume because the timing is severely retarded.


Have to think about that, could easily be carb but I would still fix timing first because you can not properly jet with bad timing.

xxxxx

No, no fancy adjustable timing light. :-)


No problem

xxxxx

I'm not sure how far advanced it goes. I'll have to recheck making a note of that. I can check tonight after work


Great

xxxxx

IMPORTANT


Did it idle high with the previous carb?

Is your pipe OEM or maybe a thin single wall aftermarket one?

How much choke does it take to start?

How cold is air typically when you are starting it?

Does it start easily, I think you said it did?

Have you tried to adjust your fuel mixture screw, not the carb slide idle screw?

What is it set at now, 1 , 2, 3 turns out from full in?

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce

Did you remove your old black plug and install a new one?


If you did then please remove it and take a photo if possible and also describe the color, white, lite tan, dark tan, dry black or moist gooey black. A new one will not have been in there long enough to get black more than likely though.

[tvpierce]

Is the ignition timing correct at idle with the mechanical advance working, if not then your advance springs are extremely weak and need to be replaced?

Can springs be replaced by themselves, or are they only available with the whole advance mechanism?

If it is not advanced at idle then it sounds like an air leak to me, did you previously check for those?

Yes, checked for air leaks by spraying WD-40 over all the seams of the intake tract. Do not appear to have any leaks.

Did it idle too high with your previous carb?

No, that's why I suggested that I would change back to the OEM carb.

a lean condition never stumbles it simply just doesn’t increase the engine rpm as quickly if at all when the throttle is opened.

Given that description, I'd call it lean. It never acts as though it wants to stall, it acts almost as if there's a "governor" keeping it from advancing any further.

"The stumble comes on at about 1/4 throttle -- just a little bit off idle. If I continue to give it more throttle (1/2, 3/4, even full) it will never stall, it just continues to bog."
I interpret the word “bog” to be a lean condition others don’t. Do you mean it is going from rich to lean?

Does the RPM continue to increase, in other words will it always reach full rpm approximately?

No, it never reaches full RPM. It's limited to mid-range: I'm guessing 3K-3.5K RPM max.

How much choke does it take to start?

Full choke on cold start, but never after.

How cold is air typically when you are starting it?

60 degrees-ish

Does it start easily, I think you said it did?

With the new (Chinese & Taiwanese) ignition parts, it starts very easily on the first pull every time... it must be the quality of the parts! :-)

Have you tried to adjust your fuel mixture screw, not the carb slide idle screw?

c

Yes, with the pilot screw adjusted all the way in or all the way out, it makes no difference.

[tvpierce]

BTW, it's in the 30s tonight, so I I'm not going out to fiddle with the wheeler tonight. Hope to have pics and/or video tomorrow.

Thanks!

BTW, this is post #84. 100, here we come! :-)

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce


xxxxx

Can springs be replaced by themselves, or are they only available with the whole advance mechanism?


Not available separately but I have gotten some close enough from an industrial hardware supply store. With your advancer at 0 your springs should have slight tension. If there is play in the spring [no tension] we’ll have to deal with that asap. If there is slight tension and advancer opens and closes smoothly you are ok. We’ll hope your stops are thin and thick ones will help reduce your over advance problem.

xxxxx

Yes, checked for air leaks by spraying WD-40 over all the seams of the intake tract. Do not appear to have any leaks.


I personally NEVER use WD 40 for this because it is not volatile enough in my opinion and therefore can sometimes miss small leaks. I use brake cleaner that says FLAMMABLE on the can and spray using the long narrow nozzle to focus the spray. Water base brake cleaner is most common now due to the EPA and won’t burn, lol.

xxxxx

No, that's why I suggested that I would change back to the OEM carb.


Ok good, at this point I will make at least a couple people happy including you and suggest that you do the following.

Check the gas level in the Chinese carb by installing a 14” long piece of CLEAR plastic hose to the drain nipple on the bottom of your carb float bowl, hold it next to the carb so the top is even with the top of the carb, open drain screw. The gas level should be around 1/8” below the bottom edge of the carb body where the bowl meets the carb. Adjust float as needed.

If float was low try carb as is. If it is still lean [red pipe only 3500 rpm etc] raiser the needle ALL the way by lowering the clip.

If it then runs good leave it, if it still runs bad install the old carb or just install the old carb now and try it if you want.

I have seen around 15 people here install Chinese carbs, most ran well out of the box, a few needed MINOR jetting, one guy gave up. I have never heard of a lean problem to the magnitude of the one you are describing from any of them.

xxxxx

Given that description, I'd call it lean. It never acts as though it wants to stall, it acts almost as if there's a "governor" keeping it from advancing any further. No, it never reaches full RPM. It's limited to mid-range: I'm guessing 3K-3.5K RPM max.


That’s a good description. I would wire those open on my mini bikes and wooden go carts, lol. Another way I would describe a rich condition to you. Ride at 1/4-1/2 throttle at a low engine rpm then open throttle al the way, if it is way to rich it will run like it has an electrical miss or like someone is spraying water in to your carb. The motor will stutter or burble etc which will decrease as your engine gains rpm.

I have never had a rich condition prevent an engine from building rpm’s.

Xxxxx

Full choke on cold start, but never after. 60 degrees-ish


Does not sound like it is EXTREMELY lean on pilot jet maybe 1 to 2 sizes too small. I think a higher float level 2 size bigger pilot and raised needle will get it close and maybe 2-3 up on the main.

Xxxxx

With the new (Chinese & Taiwanese) ignition parts, it starts very easily on the first pull every time... it must be the quality of the parts! :-)


Yeah, yeah, tell it to the hand! Perhaps if your NEW CHINESE $5.00 [shipping included] CDI box costs at LEAST $6.00 or more I might be more likely to believe that, lol. Aren't you the same guy that said your bike won't rev all the way and still had weak spark and you wanted to REMOVE your NEW CHINESE $29.95 [shipping NOT included] carb.? Did I remember enough minutia's for you, lol.

I thought you said your spark was still weak [pale yellow] not strong [lite blue], is this correct?

It may run fine this way we’ll see with the timing and carb repair however a weak spark now STRONGLY suggests a weak flywheel magnet. I would buy another.

Read the recent post below from jwalth6 on his 84 200S. I think the following was done with the pull starter from jwalth6 on his 84 200S. I think it was tested using the pull starter. Even he had 50volts from his source coil which further strongly suggests to me that either your volt meter is bad or your flywheel magnet is weak. If your spark is still weak it is most likely your magnet.



From jwalth6’s string.

“I have cheaked like everything you said. The black/y wire going to the coil had 50vt when on the x50 setting. All the ohms on everything are good. I already ordered a new cdi. Hopefully it fixes it. I will post with results.”

xxxxx

Yes, with the pilot screw adjusted all the way in or all the way out, it makes no difference.


It’s probably idling above the rpm range where that screw will have an effect.

Xxxxx

BTW, this is post #84. 100, here we come! :-)


Never happen, I predict you’ll be fixed by #99, lol.

[barnett468]

Hello


Gas level test drawing pg 4-4.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manual...vicemanual.pdf

[my1423]

Quick extra test.
On the advance mechanism find the magnet end. Black stripe and its magnetic.
Draw a white line on it lining up with the magnet on the bolt side. Outside. Making another timing mark.
Hook up your timing light and see if it is firing with the white line straight at the pulse coil.
Check it on pull starting not running.
Then running Rev it up and down.
If the line stays in one place pointed directly at the pulser coil on all rpms and starting the cdi has no advance.
Mechanical has no bearing on this. Just comparing where the trigger is vs the trip mag.
Because it is firing when the trigger coil is in place.
If it moves not pointing right at the coil then you have electronic advance.
You can also mark on the case idle loaction and high rev spot and measure the degree of change.

Now if your advance is jammed into no advance and your timing marks are 20 off and the pulse is aligned then your timing chain is not properly aligned or the something is funky with the flywheel or key.

One thing most do not know about these china cdi units is the rpm range. They are used on crank driven sensors and the atc is cam driven.
This drops the rpm advance range curve into the totally wrong curve for the rpms are halved.
Cdi wants to raise the curve all the way to apx 6000 rpm then lower after the advance after.
Since 3000 is 6000 well you get the point I hope.
This also magnifies the the degree curve. Crank vs computed time on cam.
So if the unit is set for 8 degree advance on a crank you will get 16 on the crank due to the 2-1 on cam!

If it has advance, You need a different cdi


If you run it with 20 degree advance we can all count on another 99 post thread on replacing a melted piston or burned valve starting with now I have no compression. JK LOL

[tvpierce]

Hello


Gas level test drawing pg 4-4.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manual...vicemanual.pdf

I'm very familiar with the fuel level check from my in-line 4 motorcycles -- 4x the fun! I'm on to fuel injection on the bike now, but still have a Honda V twin that's carbureted.

[my1423]

One other item to check.
With the crank on f make sure the advance unit mag is pointed straight up at the pulse coil.
If it is not you could have the wrong advance unit. Just because they look the same does not mean they are.
Backside pin has different locations for different bikes.
This will also be wrong if the cam chain is off, or a keyway, flywheel, ect.

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce


I'm very familiar with the fuel level check from my in-line 4 motorcycles -- 4x the fun!

Ok good, since I have no idea what anyone does and doesn’t know it seems logical to mention it instead of assuming you knew about it. Since you have experience with it it will be easy for you to do on a single cylinder when it's 30 degrees outside, lol.

xxxxx

I'm on to fuel injection on the bike now, but still have a Honda V twin that's carbureted.

Did you know that Honda supposedly built their original twin so they could beat the Harleys in flat track, 1/2 and 1 mile races etc. which they finally did after spending around a bazzilion dollars.

[tvpierce]

I checked my mechanical advance, and I was incorrect: it does not have black pads to limit advance. I was able to make some pads using vinyl tubing. I had two thicknesses: one had a very thin wall, the other a bit thicker. I tried both, and in both cases, adding the pads inhibited the engine's ability to rev. Meaning it revved more freely (reached higher RPM) without the pads.

Using the timing light on the flywheel markings, I can see that it only advances about 1/4 inch past the "F" mark, so that seems right.

I can't get an accurate reading of timing at idle because I can't get the idle to settle down. I have a hunch about why the carb is causing a high idle, but let me get home and get it off the bike to look at it before I go making some wild allegations.

More later.

[barnett468]

Hello tv oierce

Am I off my meds or am I correct in thinking that when I asked you specifically if the timing at isle was factory per manual that you said yes?

F lined up in the window is 10 degrees btdc and factory spec for full advance is 30 degrees btdc. If you tell me how big arounf the flywheel i will calculate exactly how far 20 degrees will be in inches past the F mark on your flywheel later today.

10 deg at F + 20 deg past F = 30 degrees total.


We'll get it but the timing you measure must be EXACT or at least very close to it in your case.