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Thread: '84 Honda 200ES, Poor Running... Ignition?

  1. #121
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Hello tvpierce

    Yes a low float level can easily caUse a lean or rich condition and float levels should be correct before any jetting is done otherwise if you can even jet it then correct your float level you may have to jet again. Others don't do it this way.

    I'll reply in more detail in an hour or so but for now, yes put the OLD needle in turn carb upside doen if you wantto and blow air thru fuel line to see if it is leaking, install on bike ride it first make some notes then check gas level and let us know if it is better or worse.

    Yes you can bend the plastic float tang but it's complicated. I think someone makes an adjustable height needle and seat for yours someone else here just bought a kit with one. I'll check it out if no one tells you more about it.

    If it is determined your level is too low with the new needle and too high [unlikely but possible] with the old one you can simply install an additional [fiber] washer under the seat to adjust it if it uses one.

  2. #122
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    I meant to say an inaccurate float level can cause either a rich or lean condition. Low float level = leaner, high float level = richer.

    I don't have an edit button.

  3. #123
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Hello tvpierce


    You keep using the word “stumble” I think I tried to explain the terminology that I at least understand in an earlier post but either way here goes.

    I equate the word stumble to burble, sputter and intermittent miss etc. In other words, when accelerating, the engine might run like someone suddenly sprayed water in it, or too much gas suddenly got in it. It sputters, burbles, stumbles or misses etc until it hopefully finally clears out and continues to build rpm. This is typically caused by rich jetting, electrical miss, water in gas and occasionally a weak plug wire breaking down under load [more of an automotive problem]etc.

    Is this what yours does? If so then you have a very mysterious problem if applying the choke reduces the problem and makes it run better.


    One of the ways I explain a “lean” condition is that under acceleration the bike does NOT sputter, burble, stumble or feel like it has a miss, it simply does not “go” or accelerate. I also refer to this condition as a “bog” or “bogging”.

    Is this what it does?


    Thanks

  4. #124
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    I would figure out why you can't downshift to neutral before i worry about the carb anymore, that could be far more serious. If your lucky its a problem with the shift stopper or the return spring, but i wouldn't ride it around stuck in fourth gear until you fix it, you could end up hurting something else, and using low gear puts a lot of strain on the sub trans, its fine for average use, but i wouldnt ride around on it all day in low gear.. LOL
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1984 Honda ATC200ES "Big Red"
    1982 ATC200E "Hondie"
    1988 TRX300FW "Project Quad" Still in progress....

  5. #125
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Barnett,

    You're correct: as you helped me determine earlier, it's a bog or miss.
    Last edited by tvpierce; 05-20-2013 at 04:56 PM. Reason: Typo

  6. #126
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb0nly View Post
    I would figure out why you can't downshift to neutral before i worry about the carb anymore, that could be far more serious. If your lucky its a problem with the shift stopper or the return spring, but i wouldn't ride it around stuck in fourth gear until you fix it, you could end up hurting something else, and using low gear puts a lot of strain on the sub trans, its fine for average use, but i wouldnt ride around on it all day in low gear.. LOL
    I guess I'll have to dig into it and see what's going on in the tranny then. The kids are just running around a little in the grassy field next door, so no heavy use... but it's good for me psychologically to see the kids enjoying it. :-)

  7. #127
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvpierce View Post
    Barnett,

    You're correct: as helped me determine earlier, it's a bog or miss.

    Hello tcpierce


    Please re-read my post #123 again carefully, it will be helpful. To me a "bog" does NOT have a miss, stutter, stumble, burble etc, it simply has absolutely NO symptom other than the rpm fail to increase and the engine might sound like a big vacuum cleaner when it's under load with the throttle wide open. I personally do not use those 2 words in the same sentence when describing any performance related issue, others do, so it can become a little complicated at times.

    Just please be aware that not only can riding it stuck in gear potentially do further damage to the trans as Kbonly mentioned but it can be hard on the clutches and other parts as well etc.


    Kbonly

    Sorry that I did not suggest for him NOT to ride it. I got involved and forgot he had a trans problem which I can't help him with much if it's a sub trans anyway.

  8. #128
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnett468 View Post
    Hello tcpierce
    Please re-read my post #123 again carefully, it will be helpful. To me a "bog" does NOT have a miss, stutter, stumble, burble etc, it simply has absolutely NO symptom other than the rpm fail to increase and the engine might sound like a big vacuum cleaner when it's under load with the throttle wide open. I personally do not use those 2 words in the same sentence when describing any performance related issue, others do, so it can become a little complicated at times.
    Sorry, I misread your description. I would call it a bog: no stumble, just a failure of RPM to increase. If it's not raining tonight when I get home, I'll see if I can make of video of it and post on Photobucket or Youtube.

    Thanks.

  9. #129
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvpierce View Post
    Sorry, I misread your description. I would call it a bog: no stumble, just a failure of RPM to increase. If it's not raining tonight when I get home, I'll see if I can make of video of it and post on Photobucket or Youtube.

    Thanks.

    Hello tvpierce


    Ok, cool no problem, as you see, lots of minutia’s, lol. and this can be haaaaaaaard stuff to do from both sides. Kbonly by himself has spent hours on this. As long as you have money to buy new parts with we'll get it, lol.

    Look forward to the video they are occasionally EXTREMELY helpful.

    Please don’t forget the vacuum leak test. It is not always definitive though unfortunately but it typically finds a leak in my experience.

  10. #130
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    I know nothing about photobucket. All I know is youtube and like that because it blows up to a full screen but obviously just do what's best for you. I personally don't need to "see" the sound, lol.

  11. #131
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    Oh i agree its nice seeing them use it!! :-)

    Try this, with it running, standing next to it, try rocking it backwards and forwards while jerking up on the shifter, see if that combination of movement will let you click it up into lower gears, if so then its shift stopper/spring issue.

    Its possible to have a bent shift fork or something worst in the motor but lets hope its external, basically that you can fix it on the right side rather than having to split the cases, cause that really really really sucks!!! LOL

    Oh and if you end up pulling the right cover off clean the centrifugal oil filter as well, its all in the manual. You will need a couple gaskets to get in and out of that side but its not too terrible. Also check your clutch adjustment too before taking it apart, a poorly adjusted clutch will hold it in gear on these auto's because it never fully disengages when the engine RPM drops. I have seen that personally on a few of them that someone mis-adjusted.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1984 Honda ATC200ES "Big Red"
    1982 ATC200E "Hondie"
    1988 TRX300FW "Project Quad" Still in progress....

  12. #132
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb0nly View Post
    Try this, with it running, standing next to it, try rocking it backwards and forwards while jerking up on the shifter, see if that combination of movement will let you click it up into lower gears, if so then its shift stopper/spring issue.
    No go on that. I've had to rock it since I got -- like all Hondas, it's was always a clunky shifter... but this one was a little worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by kb0nly View Post
    Oh and if you end up pulling the right cover off clean the centrifugal oil filter as well, its all in the manual. You will need a couple gaskets to get in and out of that side but its not too terrible.
    Will do.

    Quote Originally Posted by kb0nly View Post
    Also check your clutch adjustment too before taking it apart, a poorly adjusted clutch will hold it in gear on these auto's because it never fully disengages when the engine RPM drops. I have seen that personally on a few of them that someone mis-adjusted.
    Adjusting the clutch helped when I first got the trike, but since the downshift issue arrose, it hasn't made a difference. Will double check though to be certain.

    Thanks.

  13. #133
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    Ok, what are you running for oil? 10w-40 is the recommended, most will say run ATV oil, i have run that or just a good grade of automotive 10w-40, but the viscosity is the important bit. If you got ATV oil at the local store dump and refill with that, it does help older clutches a bit.

    The fact that the clutch adjustment doesn't help though makes me think you either have a shift stop problem or its the clutches themselves. Either way, your going to have to tear into the right side.

    Another thing to try.. With it running and in gear, be it stuck in fourth or whatever gear it is... Can you easily push it around as if its still in neutral or is it really hard to push or feel like its dragging? If thats the case then the clutch isn't disengaging. How fast is your idle? If its idling too high it could be slipping the clutch, its totally centrifugal like a snowmobile, more throttle more grab.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1984 Honda ATC200ES "Big Red"
    1982 ATC200E "Hondie"
    1988 TRX300FW "Project Quad" Still in progress....

  14. #134
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    OK, shot a video tonight, and I'm uploading it now to YouTube. It's going to take 90 minutes to upload -- sorry, shot it with my DSLR on HD setting, and it's almost 1 gig! When it's uploaded, it will be here: http://youtu.be/rtiVl7VrF-Y



    Oil: running Shell Rotella T 15w-40 non-synthetic. It's spec-ed for diesel engines, but it's widely considered a fantastic motorcycle oil because of its high zinc content and lack of friction modifiers -- which makes it great for wet-clutch applications.

    With the engine running and in gear, I can push it around almost as easy as if it were in neutral -- very slight resistance though.

    With the engine off and in gear, I can push it backwards easily, but forwards it's completely locked.

    With the engine off, I can disengage the clutch by lifting on the shift lever... then I can push it in and out of the garage.

    With the engine off, if I rock and wiggle it enough, I can get it to act like it's in neutral so I can push it in and out of the garage, but I'm pretty sure it's just stuck between gears.

    I have the idle set extremely low -- you'll see in the video. I could set it higher, but wanted to see how low it will go -- the engine runs very well at idle.

    Checked again for vacuum leaks. Barnett, I know you suggested flammable carb cleaner, but I don't have any. So I first probed with propane, that usually works well as a flammable leak detector. Then tried again with WD-40, which in my experience works not because it burns well, but because it (or any fluid) will temporarily obstruct the leak for a few seconds, so will lower the idle then rise again as it returns to the lean condition.
    It's also been my experience that vacuum leaks are more pronounced at idle -- causing a high idle condition, then become almost unnoticeable at higher throttle openings? Which further makes me think it's not a vac leak. Have you guys had the same experience or not?

    Hopefully the video will be up soon. I'm eager to hear all your thoughts.

    As always, thanks all of you for hanging with me on this -- your help is very much appreciated.

  15. #135
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    Ok, from your excellent description its your shift stopper i would almost bet on it. Lifting it to get it into a false neutral so you can roll it, and being able to roll only backwards when off is the key there, its either in or between gears and not disengaging correctly.

    There is a little spring loaded arm with a roller on the end of it, look at page 84 of the PDF manual on my server, its the small arm with the bolt and spring next to the star shaped wheel at the top of that parts layout. Page 104 shows the stopper plate and stopper arm. Best i can suggest is to drain the oil, lay it over on its left side and then pull that right cover off, watching out for the clutch adjuster and associated parts as they are the only stuff that will move around on that side. Must be a broken or damaged shift stopper.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1984 Honda ATC200ES "Big Red"
    1982 ATC200E "Hondie"
    1988 TRX300FW "Project Quad" Still in progress....

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