YTM 200e stuck in gear, metal in oil

[cmdrca]

Finally got some room in the shed, and started disassembly last night. I definitely have some questions as I proceed as I haven't done this too often. As I take it apart, I'm looking for things that might not be correctly assembled, as I'm not sure of the cause of the breakage yet. I see gasket maker that doesn't look like factor between the cases. If you see something that looks out of place let me know.
I'm following the manual for disassembly, but I am open to any suggestions. Specifically, I want to know if I can disassemble from the right side only to get to the gears after the top end is off.

First thing I did after removing the engine from the frame was to degrease it and hose it off with low pressure. I sealed off all holes into the engine first.
Then I moved it inside.

One of the two cam cover bolts is frozen in place. My impact driver has worked well so far, but this bolt with its Phillips head doesn't want to turn. I think there is a cast hole at the end of the threaded section that maybe has allowed some water in? Anyway, I'm close to stripping the head even with the driver, so I saved that for another time. I left it overnight with the engine on the side with some PB Blaster sitting on it. We will see if it works.
I turned to the left hand side disassembly.

The pull start case came off easily, but it needs some attention as there isn't enough tension on the rope. I'll probably get to that last.

I hate messing with flywheel pullers, and instead rely on my Dewalt impact wrench. The engine provides enough resistance to undo bolts.


The alternator cover doesn't want to come off. I got all the bolts, even those sunken ones inside the cover.

My next step will be to tap the cover with a piece of wood all around it to see if I can get it to loosen up. Any other tricks anyone knows about? It's not yielding at all to my efforts to separate it. Not sure if it's the gasket that is sealing it on, or the seal on the post. If I'm going into the bottom end from the right side, do I need to take the alternator cover off?

Since I had a bit more time left last night, I took off the right side cover. I'm going to have to split the cases, but I figured it might get lucky with finding some issue with the clutches before having to tear the whole thing down.

The inside of the cover looks ok to me.



I'm not used to this type of clutch, but it seems to me both clutches are worn out. Would clutches in this condition cause a gear to strip under use? I'm trying to figure out why gears have been sheared.




In the process of taking off the first clutch, this washer came off. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be right under the nut, or behind the clutch, or behind the whole clutch and gear. Any clues?


The clutches in the basket look pretty worn out too.




Here's a piece of the metal I found in the bottom of the case. It almost looks like part of a worm gear?


That's all for now. Hope to get back at it soon.

[cmdrca]

Oh, one more thing. The clutch plates had all there tabs aligned with each other. The last clutch job I did several years ago I seem to remember having to step each clutch plate so the tabs wouldn't line up-like a spiral staircase. Is this done correctly here?

[barnett468]

From post 1

I stumbled across a YTM 200e last week...

...since I've got it it's been stuck in first gear. Engine off, can't shift it up or down. Engine running, can't shift it up or down. It'll idle at a stop beautifully, accelerate smoothly, and stop well. I can push down on the shifter and the bike stops-feels like a clutch? But it wouldn't shift.

From post 5.

Your description of the problem and function is very complete

From your report your clutch system is working perfectly so I'll have to disagree with Barnett.

I, personally, still have insufficient info to make any statements as to whether I think you "definitely" have a clutch problem or not, but my interpretation/understanding of your description of your problem strongly suggests to me that you might, which is what I mentioned in my original post #3.

If a bike with an automatic clutch sits perfectly static when idling, like you said yours does, and then the engine dies as soon as you activate the shifter, it seems reasonable to me to guess that it either has a clutch problem or neutral safety switch problem.

If it lurches forward when you activate the shifter or seems like a brake is suddenly applied that stops the engine, you most likely have a clutch problem at the very least imo. There may still be transmission problems.

If the centrifugal clutch is not disengaging but the manual clutch is, then your bike will lurch forward once the bike is put in gear and the shifter is released and not before it is released.

If the centrifugal clutch is engaging at idle then it is likely due to either broken centrifugal clutch springs or a seized one way clutch bearing. See items 2 and 5 in the parts fiche below.

http://www.cmsnl.com/yamaha-ytm200ek...1.html#results

I pulled the right side cover off last night and drained the oil-and found three 1/2 inch metal chunks loose at the oil screen. Uh oh. At this point I figure that some gear in the transmission is stripped.

It is highly unlikely [but not impossible] that the pieces are from the transmission gears. This is because, not only are the transmission gears extremely resistant to actual breakage, the sizes of the broken pieces you describe are likely too large to get through the small oil passages that allow oil to flow back and forth from the trans to the clutch.

In addition, even if the pieces were small enough to get through the oil passage, they would first have to somehow navigate their way over to that oil passage, then they would have to pass through it through it 1 at a time. This seems highly unlikely to me but,... never say never.

I asked previously if they were aluminum or steel out of curiosity. The clutch contains both, you can tell by using a magnet if you are uncertain.

The link below contains a view of the cases.

http://www.cmsnl.com/yamaha-ytm200ek...6.html#results

Would clutches in this condition cause a gear to strip under use?

Worn clutches will cause slippage but not gear damage.

Putting a bike in gear without the clutch being fully/properly disengaged might, in some cases, cause gear damage, however this would be more likely if it was put in gear at high rpm's as opposed to idle.

For example, if you get into a non synchromesh manual trans car, and hold the gas pedal on the floor, then somehow jammed it into gear, it is quite possible that the gears might hurl.

The clutches in the basket look pretty worn out too.

There is a thickness spec in the manual for them. If the metal plates are not dark blue and the thickness of all of them are in spec then I would do the following:

After cleaning, lay the metal plates on either a granite counter top or a window and see if they are perfectly flat. If they are not I would replace them.

If they are flat, then I would simply sand them with around 400 wet paper. One way to do this is the following:

1. put a line of black felt tip marker around the plate using a wide tip of possible.

2. lay a full sheet of sand paper on a perfectly flat surface or tape it to a window next to the frame [when the old lady’s gone of course].

3. spray WD40 on the paper.

3. lay the plate on it and move it around vigorously for around 5 seconds then inspect it.

4. once it looks completely sanded and the felt mark is gone you’re done.

5. don't continue to sand it once it looks fully sanded, you want to remove as little material as possible.



Hope your holidays are happy and safe.

[emmie357]

Oh, one more thing. The clutch plates had all there tabs aligned with each other. The last clutch job I did several years ago I seem to remember having to step each clutch plate so the tabs wouldn't line up-like a spiral staircase. Is this done correctly here?

They should be spaced out like you said. I don't think the order matters, as long as the tabs are all in different positions (but the spiral staircase is much more organized).

[barnett468]

I definitely have some questions as I proceed as I haven't done this too often. As I take it apart, I'm looking for things that might not be correctly assembled, as I'm not sure of the cause of the breakage yet.

If you see something that looks out of place let me know.

I'm following the manual for disassembly, but I am open to any suggestions. Specifically, I want to know if I can disassemble from the right side only to get to the gears after the top end is off.

If no one else comments on the right side disassembly I would do it exactly how the manual says to which is to pull the left case off.

All the bikes I have ever done had the case opposite of the clutch removed leaving the trans in the side with the clutch.

You might need a case puller/crank removal tool, because the crank bearings might be stuck in the case. You can tap the end of the crank LIGHTLY with a plastic or leather hammar while someone picks up the engine by the case half you are trying to remove the crank from and holds it off the counter from 1" - 2". This will NOT in any way harm the crank if done exactly as I described it.


Since no one has mentioned any of the following and you asked for suggestions, I thought I would post some in the hopes they it might help. These are suggestions only, there are other ways to do some of the things I listed.


REAR BRAKES – Did you make sure they are not frozen as well?


ENGINE JIG - Make a small rectangle out if 2 x 4's the appropriate size so you can lay your engine on it with the trans assembled.


FIBER CLUTCH PLATE TABS – In a case where it is possible to line them up other than in a straight line, it does not really matter if they are lined up, in a totally random, or in a spiral. All the ones I have seen from the factory have been in line.


CENTRIFUGAL CLUTCH HOUSING [OUTER] – There is a spec for this in the book but it might not tell you the following. The inside should be 100% smooth. If you can actually see or feel ridges in it, or a lip on the outer inside edge I would replace it, especially if those ridges are higher than the “low” spots by around .010” but I'm a bit more cautious than some. If they are less than around .010" then you migt be able to get away with simply scuffing the inside with 400 wet sand paper and reusing either the old clutch or a new one with it.

A new clutch will conform to minor ridges like that quickly and should work fine.

The reason for replacing it if it has ridges is because a new clutch will not have full contact with the hub. This will cause premature wear of the clutch and possibly slippage.

If you replace a hub with ridges and use the existing clutch the same thing will happen because the clutch surface has conformed to the inner hub surface as they both wear.

Many people get away with replacing just one or the other or neither even though one or both are out of spec, and do not "notice" any clutch slippage, however if you compared a completely new clutch assy to any excessively worn one back to back, one would notice at least some difference between the two.

If you are low on funds I suggest simply leaving it and see how it works providing there are no broken pieces or springs.


BROKEN GEAR PHOTO – I can see the photos in my phone only, but the piece is way too small to be able for me to tell what it might be, others might be able to. If you get no guesses on it, it would help to take an extremely close up photo of it. It might get blurry if you use your cell phone though.


STUCK IN FIRST GEAR – Before splitting the cases you can test the trans by doing the following.

1. With both clutches removed, try to turn the main clutch shaft counter clockwise while looking at the countershaft on the opposite side of the engine. If it turns easily and the countershaft does not turn then you are likely in neutral. If the countershaft turns you are in one of the gears.

Either way, if the main clutch shaft turns freely, your trans is not the cause of your engine stopping when you activate the shifter. It will be in the clutches somewhere or possibly the one way starter bearing if you have an electric start. See item 3 in the link below. I know your bike at least has a pull starter.

http://www.cmsnl.com/yamaha-ytm200ek...2.html#results

2. Put a torx bit screwdriver in the screw on the end of the shift drum. See item 5 in the link below.

http://www.cmsnl.com/yamaha-ytm200ek...6.html#results

3. Make sure it is not loose and that the pins [item 3 in step 2 link] are all intact.

4. There should be a short arm with a small roller on it a and an arm with a “fork” on it that are both spring loaded and contacting the shift drum pins [item 3 in step 2 link]. If they are not, there will be a shifting problem. See them in the link below. The roller arm is item 9 and the “fork” is attached to the shift shaft. Also check items 6, 7 and 10 for damage.

http://www.cmsnl.com/yamaha-ytm200ek...6.html#results

5. If both the roller arm and fork are connected, lift the “fork” off of the shift drum pins and pull the entire shift shaft out.

6. Put the torx screw driver back in the shift drum screw.

7. Using mild to moderate force, try to rotate it in either direction, if it does not move then have someone continuously turn the main clutch shaft counter clockwise while you turn the drum.

If you can get the drum to turn 5 solid clicks from one direction to the other, your trans is shifting and is not the cause of your problem although it may still have worn gears and/or bent shift forks. These problems might cause slightly stiff shifting and/or popping out of gear while the engine is running but will not cause a locked up transmission problem. I would inspect the trans irregardless since it is already this far apart but it may be ok. It’s obviously a bit of a gamble not to inspect it but gears alone are around $52.00 each.


STATOR COVER REMOVAL – Yeah, these sometimes seem like they are welded on. One option is to take a thin piece of metal or wood and lay it on the side of the cast boss that's in front of the bigger aluminum housing the cover is attached to then place a screw driver with a good sharp tip there and simply pry it off. This will most likely put a slight bend in the steel cover which can easily be straightened with pliers etc.


FLYWHEEL REMOVAL - I would use the correct flywheel puller, not a jaw type puller. The jaw puller can easily bend the flywheel.


CRANKSHAFT INSTALLATION TIPS

Put the side case on the jig.

If the crank does not easily install into the case and you do not have the crank installation tool then simply put the crank in the freezer for at least 1 hour and after 45 minutes, put the correct case half in the oven at 150 for 15 minutes.

Oil the outside of the bearing use a q tip to lightly oil the case where the bearing goes.

Line the bearing up with the case as close as you can by eye without letting the bearing touch the case. Once lined up simply drop it into place quickly using light pressure if necessary.

If you drop it in too slowly, the cold crank will cool the warm engine case etc. and it will tighten up on the crank before it is fully installed.

If you have double lipped crank seals, I would put some bel ray grease betwen the two lips of the seal with a q tip, after the case is removed from the oven.


ENGINE CASE REASSEMBLY TIPS

Using your engine jig, install the transmission in the case half that contains the crank.

Oil the shift fork rod end, shift drum end, gear shaft ends and countershaft shaft.

Put the empty case with seal installed in the oven but increase heat to 160 this time for 15 minutes.

After the case has been in the oven for around 10 minutes, grab a new can of any type of starting fluid or computer keyboard cleaner [also called spray duster and is avail at home depot and lowes etc.].

Put on safety glasses and in a well ventilated area away from open flames, spray the crank bearing around the outside of the bearing for around 2 minutes. This will cool the livin bejesus out if it but for a much shorter time than the freezer did.

Please do not try to increase the cooling effect by turning the can upside down.

Please do not try to cool it until it looks like Frosty the Snowman.

Please do not spray it on anyone for fun unless they are really annoying.

Clean the gasket surface on the case containing the gears using flammable brake cleaner, lacquer thinner, acetone, or alcohol etc.

Oil the outside of the crank bearing.

Put you case sealer on now or after next step. I use Yamabond #4. Some of the factory teams used to also even if it was not a Yamaha. It is great stuff but there might be better products now.

Remove case from oven, use q tip to grease seals and oil case where bearing goes.

I do not put sealer on the hot case because the heat will instantly dry it.


The following is sometimes the hardest part because 4 shafts need to line up at once but it typically goes well.

Install the hot case on the other half just as quickly and carefully as you can using only moderate hand pressure.

Some speed is necessary between the time the bearing is cooled and the case is installed because the crank bearing is not as cold as it was when you had the crank in the freezer plus you do not want the case sealer to dry before you install the other case half.

The case must be installed square. Don't get one end farther on than another or things might bind etc.

If the case goes on but leaves a 3/8" gap or less you can gently tap the case with your plastic or leather hammars around the outside of the crank.

I get them to go on around 95% of the time using this technique if this occurs.

If it does not go all the way on, you can either remove it and start again, or get a crank installation tool, or have a local shop pull it together for you.

You will need to remove the case sealer and reapply it with a q tip or narrow nozzle etc before assembly if this happens.


Instead of using the oven to heat the cases I heat the bearing area of the case by placing a large 1/2" drive socket over the seal area then use a oxy/acet torch carefully. A propane torch can also be used but I don't recommend either for the inexperienced.


Hope your holidays are safe and happy.

[cmdrca]

Guys, thanks for the help. Bad news. There is a slot in the right side do the case and I can see a large gear that looks loose on its axle and has several teeth missing. I've got everything disassembled and ready to split the cases but can't get the cases apart easily. Any other tricks to try? Will take a few photos.

[barnett468]

Guys, thanks for the help. Bad news. There is a slot in the right side do the case and I can see a large gear that looks loose on its axle and has several teeth missing. I've got everything disassembled and ready to split the cases but can't get the cases apart easily. Any other tricks to try? Will take a few photos.

hi;

bummer about the gear.

one option is:

make 1,000% sure all the screws are out.

hold the engine off the table by the left side of the case and hit the crank as i described. you can hit it moderately hard.

if it does not move you can heat the case around the bearing with a torch but if you do not have experience doing this i would nit try it.

do not put it in the oven to heat it because it will smell and make a mess.

if it does not come apart then i suggest you have a shop pull it apart. it should be done with a special puller which no one rents.



as i described

uppee half of the casetap on the end of the crank as

[El Camexican]

put the rear wheels in the air or bike on a box then have someone kick it over continuously while you try to rotate shift drum. if it rotates that is a good sign and problem is in clutch side. rotate it both directions.

Where exactly is the kick lever on his trike?

[El Camexican]

Can you identify which of your gears is broken in this photo?

I have seen most of the gears in this transmission come up on eBay at one time or another (NOS). Once you figure out which one it is it should not be too hard to find a replacement. When you get your trans fixed up there are a couple things to deal with so that it doesn’t happen again.

First off (assuming this is a chain drive engine) all there is a wire strainer under that massive plug on the left side of the engine and an oil filter on the right hand side. Make sure you clean the screen and change the filter during this rebuild. (edit) I see you have the shafty, not sure if that engine has the strainer on it

The shifting mechanism on these trikes get very sloppy. The pin that the shift lever pivots on wears out and people mess around with the linkage and it ends up not being at the optimal position to transfer the force to the shift shaft. Then there is the clutch adjustment. It is performed with a set screw and lock nut on the right-hand side of the engine. I suspect an improper adjustment is what lead to your damaged gear. A few of us have posted information on how to set this, but if you can’t find it when the time comes just let us know.

As stated by others these trikes are USUALY bullet proof, but “stuff” happens. I hope you end up keeping it!

[barnett468]

post 4.

put the rear wheels in the air or bike on a box then have someone kick it over continuously while you try to rotate shift drum. if it rotates that is a good sign and problem is in clutch side. rotate it both directions.

post 23.

Where exactly is the kick lever on his trike?

It appears by the comments in the quote that is second from the top above, that the author of it is uncertain where to find the kick starter on your bike.

As you already know, your bike does not have a kick starter, and I am also “guessing” you understood that I meant, if need be, you simply have someone turn your engine/trans over for you by whatever means you have.

For the benefit of the author of the quote above, I do not mean that the op literally turn his engine upside down.

Since you, cmdrca, were well aware prior to my post quoted above, that your bike has no kick starter, as evidenced by the fact that in your first post you said it ran, and now you have your engine out of the chassis and half way apart, the information I am providing in this post, is for the author of the quote and others like him, that might be confused by my use of the word "kick" in the post being referred to.




I see by the quote below, that the author of it made an incorrect “assumption” regarding which type of drive you had which he later edited. Since I do not have an edit button, I am unable to edit my posts like he and others can, and therefore must make an additional post to make corrections of a previous post if need be.

I therefore apologize for my lack of use of a more accurate phrase in post 4, which in turn has prompted the question above, and subsequently necessitated an additional post by me to answer it.

First off (assuming this is a chain drive engine) …

… (edit) I see you have the shafty, not sure if that engine has the strainer on it…

I also see that neither of his replies in post 23 and 24, contain any suggestions for your question quoted below, therefore, I'm hoping that someone other than myself, whom as well as I, also has first hand experience splitting engine cases, might have suggestions that differ from mine that might also be of help.
post 21

Guys, thanks for the help. Bad news. There is a slot in the right side do the case and I can see a large gear that looks loose on its axle and has several teeth missing. I've got everything disassembled and ready to split the cases but can't get the cases apart easily. Any other tricks to try? Will take a few photos.

Happy Holidays!

[El Camexican]

post 4.

post 23.

It appears by the comments in the quote that is second from the top above, that the author of it is uncertain where to find the kick starter on your bike.

As you already know, your bike does not have a kick starter, and I am also “guessing” you understood that I meant, if need be, you simply have someone turn your engine/trans over for you by whatever means you have.

For the benefit of the author of the quote above, I do not mean that the op literally turn his engine upside down.

Since you, cmdrca, were well aware prior to my post quoted above, that your bike has no kick starter, as evidenced by the fact that in your first post you said it ran, and now you have your engine out of the chassis and half way apart, the information I am providing in this post, is for the author of the quote and others like him, that might be confused by my use of the word "kick" in the post being referred to.




I see by the quote below, that the author of it made an incorrect “assumption” regarding which type of drive you had which he later edited. Since I do not have an edit button, I am unable to edit my posts like he and others can, and therefore must make an additional post to make corrections of a previous post if need be.

I therefore apologize for my lack of use of a more accurate phrase in post 4, which in turn has prompted the question above, and subsequently necessitated an additional post by me to answer it.





I also see that neither of his replies in post 23 and 24, contain any suggestions for your question quoted below, therefore, I'm hoping that someone other than myself, whom as well as I, also has first hand experience splitting engine cases, might have suggestions that differ from mine that might also be of help.
post 21





Happy Holidays!

Speaking of help, here is something you might be able to relate to. You are not alone out there.

[muthey]

Like I said before I have a complete tranny, with shift drum and shift forks if you want it, as I have a feeling more than just that gear is damage, and Elcamecican the trannies are all the same between shaft and chain drive on these, I have been into both the only things different are the shift shaft lengths.

[El Camexican]

Like I said before I have a complete tranny, with shift drum and shift forks if you want it, as I have a feeling more than just that gear is damage, and Elcamecican the trannies are all the same between shaft and chain drive on these, I have been into both the only things different are the shift shaft lengths.

Totaly agree, he'll be finding something else in there that is either bent or broke.

[cmdrca]

Here's a photo of the broken gear. You can see it through the cut out in the case.


Also, I realized I hadn't taken off the magneto so will have to do that first. Have to get a gear puller as I don't have one. I'm worried that those teeth have cut into the cases on the inside. We will see.
I'm thinking about finding an intact case with trans already inside but with a bad head for cheap. My head and piston are in great shape. Would a yfm 200 bolt right up? Seems like I might have to switch out the middle gear but that's it?

[tri again]

Sorry if I offend anyone but trikes are so plentiful around here, if I have to go that deep, I can usually find another trike for 50 bucks and swap stuff back and forth.
Needed a gas tank for an sx, 100+$ and found a whole parts trike that was an ez 1/2 day fix
for 150$.
That kinda thing.
Don't get me wrong, I love fixing stuff and outsmarting engineers when I can but I'll just save my 'extra' trikes for when they get Really scarce.