1984 ATC300R Fooler build

[bigdaddyvw185]

well i am making the trip to Ken's shop to bring him up this engine this morning!! going up with a nice bundle of new parts,hot rods kit, new cylinder,piston, hardware, bearings, seals. pretty excited to see it come back and looking all brand new!. although it is going to be a hurry up and wait situation, he will have it for at least until the end of Janurary if not into February.

[bigdaddyvw185]

Well I made the trip up to Ken's shop this afternoon and dropped him off the goods, we got to talking about what is to be done and such, He said he had 5 engines in line before my engine BUT cannot work on any of them because he is waiting for parts to come in on all 5 of them!. So to my surprise he said he will start right in on my engine tomorrow!, he also said he will have it ready to be picked up by friday or monday at the latest! and ontop of it all after looking at the components i brought up like the new cylinder as an example he gave me a total less than what he even quoted me for. I was like well hot damn lol i guess it was meant to be with me bringing it up this morning!

[Bren_downe]

Early Christmas for you dude!! Ken sounds like a nice guy. I like the videos on his website. Maybe you can get in some ice racing!

[bigdaddyvw185]

my birthday is December 22, So this is an awesome birthday / Christmas present!
Ken is a really nice guy, i stressed to him the fact that i didnt want a crazy port job and to just clean it up to his comfort level lol. he was breaking my stones on it lol he was like relax its in good hands. very knowledgeable on the subject way more so than me, so i feel its in good hands.
He actually advised me against running it in the cold temps as i would run the risk of cold seizing the engine up. which is something that i would NOT want to do. actually 3 of the 5 engines that were in the shop that he is waiting to get parts for were blaster engine and in for cold seizing issues while ice racing..... So once he said that i was like nope i dont want to have to deal with that lol...

[HondaRidr]

If you have a forged piston you need to let the engine get nice and warmed up before you rip on it to avoid cold seizing it.

[Bren_downe]

I can't blame ya on that, protect your investment. I'm looking forward to seeing pics.

[barnett468]

He actually advised me against running it in the cold temps as i would run the risk of cold seizing the engine up. which is something that i would NOT want to do. actually 3 of the 5 engines that were in the shop that he is waiting to get parts for were blaster engine and in for cold seizing issues while ice racing..... So once he said that i was like nope i dont want to have to deal with that lol...

Hi bigdaddy;


Don't know why I feel a little weird saying that to a guy, lol.

Congrats on your good fortune with your engine builder and happy b day and merry holidays.



I would be interested in knowing exactly what conditions these seizures are occurring under just for interests sake.

I posted the following for you since it sounds like you are concerned about cold seizing your engine and simply thought it might be interesting to you. I apologize in advance for posting info you didn't request.

One way to reduce seizures of all kinds is to use a super high quality 2 stroke oil. The much venerated Klotz Super Techniplate is a good oil, but not nearly as good as the ones professionals use in engines that are operated at high rpm’s for extended periods of time such as go cart racers and road racers.

Unfortunately, these “super” oils have 2 major draw backs, which are, high cost, and the fact that they tend to crud up the spark plug if an engine is run at around 3500 rpm or less for very long.

In other words, they are good for racing but not good for trail riding.

Even though the "great" oils are expensive, the additional cost seems to be offset by the added protection they provide to those that can use them.

Another thing a lot of people don’t realize is that the higher the rpm, the richer your oil gas/ratio needs to be.

Along with that, in general, just because on oil mfg. says you can run their oil at 80:1, you simply can’t.

All that being said, another way to reduce the potential for any type of seizures is to simply run a "rich" oil/gas ratio. The recommended ratio on an 84 250r is 20:1. In general this is considered a "rich" mixture and is what the factory Kawi MX team used to run using factory Kawi oil.

If you run any of the "'good" oils like Klotz or Maxima 927, one rule of thumb that is accepted by some, is to run around 32:1 for engines that typically run at "lower" rpm’s for the most part, with occasional high rpm burst’s, and 20:1 for most mx, desert and other similar racing apps.

Even though you might hear people say this is "hogwash" and that they run their bike WOT in the dunes all day at 32:1 or leaner and have never seized it, it does not negate the fact that the richer your oil/gas mix is, the more resistant to seizure your engine becomes.

If the oil/gas ratio becomes too rich, your fuel simply won't ignite with enough power to start your bike if it even ignites at all. Once this point is reached, I can guarantee you with 100% confidence that your piston will never, ever seize...ever......never.

I would suggest that if you do want to run it leaner than the factory recommended 20:1, that you do not go leaner than 28:1 for general trail riding. Other opinions will vary.

Some of the racing go carts mix at 15:1.



There are dozens of articles online regarding seizures. The one in the link I posted below is one of the ones I like and think covers a lot if bases in one brief article. Harry Klemm also has some good info on his site.

http://www.dirtbikeworld.net/forum/a...p/t-21089.html

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Just for the record, cold sieze can occur in warm weather as well.

Make sure your jetting is dialed in proper and always allow ample time for the engine to warm up before slapping the happy-lever too hard.

And as previously mentioned, select and oil and premix ratio you want to run and stick with it. Tons and tons of opinions on oil so I'm not going to go there.

[bigdaddyvw185]

well for the pre mix, i was told 32:1 was a good suggestion, tho when i go and pick the engine up from ken i will for sure see what he tells me. As for the oil, i was directed to blue marble oil. obviously i have yet to use it but i did go out and buy a gallon of it for when the time comes. but yea the oil suggestion / ratio topic i am sure can be quite extensive. i was suggested blue marble by another member so thats what i went with...
as far as the engine brake in is concerned, Ken told me to bring it up to 200 degrees and shut it down let it cool to ambeiant temperature, then repeat the process 4 times total. and while bringing it up to temperature to vary the throttle, not to just let it idle but on the other side of the coin not to race it ether, just a mild range threw the rpm's until its up to about 200 degrees.

i hesitate to ask lol, but Ride - Red, what are you using for oil? your in my kneck of the woods so we deal with fairly close to the same conditions.

[JasonB]

i like klotz techniplate. when you mix it with 93 octane or race gas it smells sweet like perfume almost. i love the stuff, theres two gallons of it sitting on my work bench at home waiting for the 500 and 310's. I run 40:1 and jet accordingly. And like Barnet and Ride-Red said; you wont seize it if you jet right. Cold Seizes happen in any weather, just depends on if you romp on the motor before the cylinder warms up. Cold Seizes happen because the piston warms up faster than the sleeve and actually lock up in the cylinder. You can seize an engine up from poor jetting though, just not technically considered a cold seize. I always used to wonder how the guys that ice race got away with it, they just jet accordingly. no way they can go rip around an iced lake like they do over and over again. air coolers and water pumpers are the same, just jet for the conditions.

[barnett468]

well for the pre mix, i was told 32:1 was a good suggestion, tho when i go and pick the engine up from ken i will for sure see what he tells. i was suggested blue marble by another member so thats what i went with...

Blue Marble is a mineral oil as opposed to a castor bean oil. They suggest some special instructions prior to use. I don't think they are on the bottle so I posted the link to them below in case you were unaware of them.

This process can increase piston ring seating time. Your builder will have the best suggestions for you.

http://www.bluemarbleoil.com/Products/2Cycle.htm

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Well since you asked, I'll tell you what I run.

My 350r is set up for 108 octane minimum per ESR's specs (the maker of the big bore cylinder kit). I run 110 octane at a ratio of 32:1 with Maxima 927 Castor. It is available locally near me for the most part, but I order it by the half gallon from Rocky Mountain ATV. They sell a half gallon for just a few bucks more than the shop near me sells a liter for (which is just an ounce or so over a quart).

My 250r is mainly stock with simple bolt-ons. Due to the fact my OEM Honda shop manual calls for 92-100 octane in a bone stock engine, I run a blend of 60% 91 octane with no ethanol and 40% 110 octane. I run that at 32:1 with Maxima 927 Castor as well.

The only thing to be careful about from what I researched about the castor oils is using it at low temperature. Pretty sure they even post a warning on the oil bottle as well. So do your research. I don't run my R's in winter, they are summer toys for me, so the cold temp issues with the castor based oil is a non-issue for me.

[bigdaddyvw185]

Well hit a small setback with the engine today, got a call from ken this morning telling me i needed to order some parts (if i could find them) He thought they were too far gone and wanted to replace them but good thing is that these parts are the only things he found that needed to be replaced so thats a good thing!. so here is the list of Part numbers that he gave me
clutch pressure plate - 22351-430-000
clutch inner hub - 22120-961-000
Clutch lock washer - 90461-961-000
Thrust washer B 22MM - 90455-ML7-000
Circlip (outer) 24mm - 94510-24000
Thrust washer 22mm - 90450-961-000
washer (24X36) - 90459-430-000
Counter shaft collor - 23225-430-000

I was able to find everything else from various places around the country, the thrust washer (22mm) - 90450-961-000 is coming all the way from freakin alaska! that was the only place i was able to find one lol. then the Washer (24X36) - 90459-430-000 came from Missouri, then the countershaft collor (22mm) - 23225-430-000 came from Massachusetts. and the pressure plate - 22351-430-000 and lock washer - 90461-961-000 came from Michigan. then the thrust washer B (22mm) - 90455-ML7-000 and Circlip (24mm) -94510-24000 just came from hondapartsnation.com.

only thing i couldnt find new was the clutch inner hub - 22120-961-000, so i had to sacrifice the one from the spare 250R engine i got with a parts bike, so i stripped that off and got it in the mail to him this afternoon. more likely than not this will push the pickup / finish date back a couple days if not more. but that is what it is, it could be worse...... could have gone without finding anything new available.

the saga continues...

[barnett468]

only thing i couldnt find new was the clutch inner hub - 22120-961-000,

Here’s a new one $50.00

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CENTER-CLUTCH...-/261263848896

same guy

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CENTER-CLUTC...96#ht_82wt_910


They might have one here, call.

http://www.westernhonda.com/fiche_se...81&fveh=132991

[bigdaddyvw185]

i actually saw this clutch center on ebay shortly after i sent my center out to him! lol. figures right....
thanks for the tip for the dealer, always glad to take any tips for dealers that could potentially have parts. i have gathered quite a list threwout this entire process and will gladly add this one you suggested to it.

also got some pictures of the progress on the gas tank today, its looking pretty!