What oil are you running in your Big Red 250es?

[El Camexican]

friction enhancers

All I'm going to say is that you are lucky barnett isn't here to respond to those words!

[barnett468]

You know, this discussion begs the question,

For vintage automobile restorers say 1920-1960 era automobiles or even earlier to 1920, what oils do these guys use.
I can't imagine guys like Jay Leno or Wayne Carini who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on vintage and exotic restorations would risk damaging a motor by putting just any oil off the shelf made under the current SN standard or whether they put an oil that meets the standards of when those motors were built.

I have always had 50’s through 70’s classic and muscle cars and still a collection of them. Many of my friends have collections of the old model T’s and other early cars and what all of us look for is regular old high quality, non synthetic oil with ZDDP levels of between approx 1150 – 1800. The average is 1250. I knew a few who ran the old formulation Rotella T.

I, as well as most of my friends, run 20w-50 if it’s hot out. A few run straight 40 on the old T’s and such.

Most of us use Valvoline VR-1, some use Brad Penn and some use Joe Gibbs Hot Rod oil.

[Flyingw]

See, now that right there is useful information. Why? because if hot rod guys are running todays standard oils then why would our trikes be any different? I never did email Mr. Carini however, the ones to pose this question to is the engineers at EBC. They are the ones who can shed some light on this debate.

[barnett468]

See, now that right there is useful information. Why? because if hot rod guys are running todays standard oils then why would our trikes be any different? I never did email Mr. Carini however, the ones to pose this question to is the engineers at EBC. They are the ones who can shed some light on this debate.

Hi Flyingw, I’m not sure what the actual question is here [not that I can answer it anyway not being an oil engineer] and you may already know the following but if not maybe it will help.

There is no difference between the base oil stock all mfg’s use to make their particular type of oil from now, then the one they used over 150 years ago or so. Petroleum oil was used more than 4000 years ago.

The current non synthetic oils with high levels of ZDDP are in general, similar to the current non synthetic oils with low levels of ZDDP. The biggest difference between the two is the different levels of ZDDP each one has.

Another of the differences is, aside from the reduction of ZDDP in the “new” formulations of oil, they are a bit “cleaner” than oils from the 20’s and pre emissions era. Some, if not most of the stuff they removed, had little to no protective/beneficial qualities.

If you want more info, you can call Valvoline on their toll free tech line and get some info there. All the mfg’s have one. I have talked to them a few times and they were very friendly and helpful. You can also call Lucas Oil in Orange Calif. and get a lot of very good info.

I think Amzoil has a tech article that is available online explaining why they make an oil specifically for wet clutch engines and it is mostly pertaining to the clutch.

You can also contact Barnett Clutches but unfortunately you will likely not get much info or complete info from them unless you talk to an engineer.

You can certainly run regular old non motorcycle oil in a wet clutch motorcycle engine however they are formulated slightly different for the clutches at the very least.

I don’t know exactly when the mfg’s started recommending the use of oil designed for wet clutch engines however Bel-Ray has an oil called “Gear SAVER Oil” that they had since at least 1974 which is advertised as such. I use to run it in my race bikes. Kawi had such an oil when I started there around 1983.

From Bel-Ray

“Bel-Ray® Gear Saver Transmission Oil is a gear oil that has been developed for the unique demands of all motorcycle transmissions equipped with wet clutches. Bel-Ray Gear Saver Transmission Oil flows freely for better…”

ZDDP not only helps to protect the cam in a 4 stroke eng but also protects the gears.

Below is a link to a really cool oil test, unfortunately they didn’t use common US brands or compare oil with ZDDP.

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

[Flyingw]

Good stuff indeed Mr. Barnett. The question now and debate that has come up over and over through the years is.... Honda designed these trike motors to run conventional off the shelf automotive oils as a convenience for the owners at a reasonable price to keep their machines services correctly. Back in the 80's the API standard was SE and SF. The current standard is SN. The question that keeps coming up is the off the shelf oils being produced under the SN standard a suitable oil for these old motors with wet clutches. Does the engine oil perform as it was intended or does it do harm to the clutches? Some think the oil now is too "Slippery" for lack of a better term causing clutch problems. Some like me think the oils perform as they are supposed to due to the fact that clutch plate technology has changed along with the changes in oil technology under the current standard.

Some guys run Rotella, some guys run full and blended synthetics. There is a wide variety of opinions out there as to which oil is best for the entire engine as a whole including the wet clutch. The original question in this thread was, which oil is best to run in his ES and this has spurred a discussion over this very subject. I don't know enough about the properties of Rotella to have an opinion either way. From the reading I've done on synthetics as it would relate to running it in 25 year old machine implies synthetic oils are not suitable for the engine and transmission. If these were say a sport bike engine then a synthetic oil would be required but these engines were designed to run on conventional oils. I've seen some ads for our trike clutch plates that said not to use synthetic oil with those particular clutch plates. That's pretty self explanatory.

The book does not say anything related to Rotella so does Rotella perform the same as a conventional oil or does long term use of Rotella actually harm the engine through premature wear or whatever. I think this is an excellent discussion. This is how we figure stuff out. That's the gest of the discussion. Who is right, are we over-thinking this?

[barnett468]

I know the factory recommended weight is SAE10W-40 but are you running any specific brand thru your big red or atc in general?

I'm just the most worried about clutch in it is all.

I run oil designed for wet clutch systems. It is a bit better on your clutch than the newer regular automotive eng oils however some people run auto oil for years and never experience a problem. This does not mean that their clutch might not have lasted any longer had they used oil designed for wet clutches.

I I wondered about the synthetic and if it would hurt the internals.

Synthetics oils in general are good oils however of you read the article I posted the link to earlier you will see that even they vary drastically in quality between name brand oils. If I were to run one it would be one with high levels of ZDDP in it . Motul, Moto 4 and Lucas have some like that as well as some others. Lucas is the least expensive of the ones I mentioned. Synthetic oil also might not be optimal/compatible for use with all wet clutches, check with clutch mfg. to see.

I I have one that is smoking a little and has a little oil coming out the exhaust. I put some thicker stuff in it hoping it would help it out but I'm wondering if I shouldn't have put some seafoam in the oil instead and see if it frees up a stuck ring.

It is very uncommon for a ring to “stick” to a piston. If it is stuck from being gummed up, one of the best cleaners/de-gummers is called "GM ENGINE TOP CLEANER". It is avail at GN car dealers. The new formula is not as good as the old one unfortunately. The old one might be found on Ebay or left over at some dealers.

You will need a small funnel and 2 feet of hose.

Your bore and rings and/or valve guides are most likely worn.

The best thing to reduce smoke is to run pure mineral oil. They sell it as “smokeless” engine oil but I wouldn’t recommend it.

The best thing I know of to hopefully seal the rings a bit better and therefore reduce the smoke is simply to run non synthetic 10w-40 or straight 40 oil with around 1/4 bottle of STP or Motor Honey in it.

[barnett468]

Good stuff indeed Mr. Barnett. The question now and debate that has come up over and over through the years is.... Honda designed these trike motors to run conventional off the shelf automotive oils as a convenience for the owners at a reasonable price to keep their machines services correctly. Back in the 80's the API standard was SE and SF. The current standard is SN. The question that keeps coming up is the off the shelf oils being produced under the SN standard a suitable oil for these old motors with wet clutches.

The original question in this thread was, which oil is best to run in his ES and this has spurred a discussion over this very subject.

Hello Flyingw

I am happy to discuss and exchange ideas with you or almost anyone regarding oil, however, even though there were 3 pages and 31 posts here regarding the issue BEFORE I made my first post, and you say the op's question has “spurred a discussion over this very subject”, I have a feeling that even though this subject might interest the op, some might say that I am hijacking the thread because I am replying to your questions and not the op’s, therefore it might be better if we correspond through pm’s if you want to discuss the issue further.

The book does not say anything related to Rotella so does Rotella perform the same as a conventional oil or does long term use of Rotella actually harm the engine through premature wear or whatever. I think this is an excellent discussion. This is how we figure stuff out. That's the gest of the discussion.

ROTELLA – In short, according to many industry experts, the new “starburst” Rotella is “safer/better” per se, to run in a gas 4 stroke engine in general than the old Rotella. I realize this doesn’t answer your question as to how it pertains to a wet clutch but I can offer at least some info on that later.

Who is right, are we over-thinking this?

Even though I am not an oil expert, I for one think I know enough about oil and engines to feel that it is a good thing to know about oil since it seems to be constantly changing and that there are some basic criteria to look for in an oil for the older wet clutch engines at the very least.

[Flyingw]

I don't agree with you in that this is the perfect place to have this discussion. This is a very useful debate and I don't see it as hijacking the thread but a constructive discussion on the exact topic of the thread.

[barnett468]

I don't agree with you in that this is the perfect place to have this discussion. This is a very useful debate and I don't see it as hijacking the thread but a constructive discussion on the exact topic of the thread.

Post 1 from the op.

I know the factory recommended weight is SAE10W-40 but are you running any specific brand thru your big red or atc in general?

Even though there are several extensive discussions/"facts” on this site alone regarding oil, broadening the op's specific question a bit, I tend to agree with you [not that my opinion should matter]. That being said, I might not have much more info to offer anyway. You and some others on the site likely know just as much or more about oil as I do.

My comment about me possibly being singled out as a thread hijacker by a few here simply for replying to your questions, is made because I alone, am judged by a totally different standard than all others on this particular site by those select few, and have been relentlessly stalked/followed and subsequently berated by some of those few on occasions such as this where they perceive that my posts might be even remotely outside the scope of an op's question. I was in no way suggesting that you were hijacking the thread.

As you can see in post 31, which was also thanked by another member, I am talked about in a negative way by some even when I haven’t posted, lol. That post is also the only post by that member on this thread, and I for one have still yet to figure out exactly what, if anything, it has to do with the op's question, or why anyone would thank him for it, but that's one of my business.

Even in cases where an op and occasionally others have thanked me for a particular post I made, there are still often a few others that attempt to berate me for making what they perceive to be comments/suggestions etc. that are outside the narrow scope of the op’s question.

I’m also prefer not to offer my own opinions on the subject of oil, but instead, have, and continue, to do research just as you apparently have. I then simply relay the “facts”/info [as they can best be determined after filtering through occasional hype and misleading statements] I have found, along with whatever personal experiences I have had.


PS - I sent you a pm.


Happy New Years!

[barnett468]

Post correction for post 39.

"thank him for it, but that's one of my business." should read, "thank them for it, but that's none of my business".

I have no edit button.

[DohcBikes]

I have no edit button.

Maybe someday, if you ask real nice, and promise to take real good care of it, you'll get another edit button, lol...

All in good fun Barnett... Happy New Year!!

[kebby28]

I have enjoyed following this thread. As I stated in the beginning, my 250es came with a empty bottle of atv synthetic oil. I forgot the weight but it wasn't 10w-30 or 40. I have changed my oil and filter 3 times this year and have been using full synthetic 10w-40. Regular auto parts store valvoline or castrol. I am using synthetic because I heard that once you run it in a motor you shouldn't go back to regular oil. I have been wanting to run atv synthetic but there isn't anywhere close by to get it. I was under the impression I was doing my motor a favor by running full synthetic... no?

[barnett468]

Who is right, are we over-thinking this?

I have enjoyed following this thread. As I stated in the beginning, my 250es came with a empty bottle of atv synthetic oil. I forgot the weight but it wasn't 10w-30 or 40. I have changed my oil and filter 3 times this year and have been using full synthetic 10w-40. Regular auto parts store valvoline or castrol. I am using synthetic because I heard that once you run it in a motor you shouldn't go back to regular oil. I have been wanting to run atv synthetic but there isn't anywhere close by to get it. I was under the impression I was doing my motor a favor by running full synthetic... no?

Even though I am not an oil expert, I think I know enough about oil and engines to believe that it is a good thing to know a "reasonable" amount about oil since it seems to be constantly changing, and that there are some basic criteria to look for in an oil for the older wet clutch engines at the very least.

Here’s my condensed and partial view on the subject along with a few facts.


The following are a few of the things I look for.

PARAFFINIC QUALITIES - Because no off road bike is run on a regular basis like ones work car, one of the things I look for is high paraffinic qualities. This quality is natural in Pennsylvania crude oil and is replicated by at least some other oil mfg’s like Lucas Oil. This quality keeps a thin layer of oil on an engine whereas oils with lower paraffinic qualities run off the parts like the piston and cam etc. This can cause premature wear every time the bike is started after long periods of time. It also purportedly helps prolong engine life in general.



ZDDP - Levels of ZDDP between around 1400 ppm whether one runs std or synthetic oil. This can be purchase in several places and added to most oils if they do not contain these levels.

Again, as one can see by the link I previously posted, the synthetics tested did not have ZDDP and some performed far better than others. Adding ZDDP up to the recommended levels for old school engines to those oils it is compatible with will simply be added protection against wear. This is one of the reasons some oil mfg’s do exactly that.

Many industry experts agree that running oil with ZDDP will improve the life of an engine, but the auto mfg’s simply can’t run it due to the cat converters and the EPA etc., plus do they really want a car that might go over 250k miles? They won’t sell very many if they take that long to wear out, lol.

Lucas, and I think Motul oil, have approx 2800 ppm of ZDDP in one of their super high perf oils.



SYNTHETIC OILS - In theory, and in at least some tests, synthetics are more “slippery” than non synthetic oils. This is good for parts of a motorcycle engine but not some others like the clutch if it is not designed for it.

Many people run synthetics on clutches that are not specifically designed for it with no obvious adverse effects.

Even if a clutch might wear out in say 2000 miles on an off road vehicle that has a wet clutch engine which is not ridden hard all the time which is running synthetic oil as opposed to wearing out in maybe 3000 miles running conventional oil, with average use, it might take around 6 years to wear the clutch out as opposed to wearing it out in around 9 years using conventional oil.

If for example, one rides 20 hours a month at an average speed of 30 mph, it will take around 6 years to go 2000 miles and 9 to go 3000.

In this particular instance, the increased life span to some of the other parts like the piston and cylinder etc. achieved from using a high quality synthetic oil over a high quality non synthetic is imo is more than important than having to replace a 100.00 clutch 3 years sooner than I might have otherwise had to.

Again, this being said, if I were to run ANY oil in a 2 or 4 stroke engine crankcase, I would insure it had around 1200 - 1400 ppm of ZDDP in it for average abuse and a little more for extreme abuse. From what I have read and experienced, this level of ZDDP, or close to it, is more important than the type of engine oil one uses. Other peoples research and experiences might be different.


From post 34.

Below is a link to a really cool oil comparison wear test, unfortunately they didn’t use common US brands or compare oil with ZDDP.

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf



SWITCHING BACK AND FOURTH BETWEEN CRANKCASE OILS – From what I have read, experienced and know regarding this issue, it doesn’t matter enough to make a hill of beans of difference whether or not one switches between syn to non syn in a crankcase every single oil change.

What one wants to avoid as much as possible, is switching oils used for mixing with gas and at all costs, one wants to avoid mixing gas with castor based oil with conventional based oil.

One easy way to determine one oils compatibility with another’s, is to pour two different types of oil together in a small clear glass them stir them and let them sit for a few hours. If they separate, it is not the best thing in the world but it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the worst either especially if it is for the crankcase and the old oil is being drained completely. This is because you will be mixing so little of one oil with another and the churning of the engine internals will keep them mixed well enough while it is running that there won’t be any problem



FREQUENT OIL AND FILTER CHANGES - Even though off road bikes are not run nearly as often as a car, I change the oil frequently.

Due to the conditions they are subjected to during use and occasionally storage, they can, at the very least, accumulate water from condensation. Water can enter also the crankcase via the breather hose if one plays “submarine” with them in the creeks or ponds etc.

Honda's recommended interval for changing the oil in the 250 ES is every 30 days of use.

If one estimates an average of 6 hours running time for each of those 30 days it comes to 180 hours of operation. Since the ES is more of a utility vehicle, it seems reasonable to me to estimate an average speed of around 20 mph for each of the hours used which comes to 3600 miles.

If you drive your car or motorcycle 20 miles each way to work, 5 days a week plus another 25 over the weekend doing miscellaneous things, it will take 3 weeks to reach 360 miles. I can’t imagine changing the oil in my car every 3 weeks, it’s typically done every 3000 miles.

If I ride 4 times a month at the average speed it would take exactly 10 months to go 3600 miles.
Even though there is typically only 1 cyl beating up 2 the approximate 2 quarts of oil in a motorcycle compared to approx 1.2 cyls per quart in a typical V6 eng, the motorcycle has a clutch and transmission beating up the oil to whereas an automotive engine does not.

Considering the factors I mentioned above that seems like a very long time between oil changes to me.

[85bigred00]

So can you find atv type oil at like a Canadian tire or Walmart or do i have to go to an atv dealer to be able to find this stuff. I really should change 250es oil someday

[barnett469]

So can you find atv type oil at like a Canadian tire or Walmart or do i have to go to an atv dealer to be able to find this stuff. I really should change 250es oil someday

FACT: You should change your oil frequently.