looking for help with a 1988 honda atc250 big red

[joe83hd]

Things that i checked last night, Garge temp 65, has new gas in it, Kick start no choke no throttle second kick starts and idles, electric start, no choke no throttle no start, half choke no throttle no start,full choke no throttle no start, and then tried the choke in all three postions with throttle at 1/4, 1/2, and full no start. checked valves they are .003 and .004, removed starter it looks to be new, disassembled cleaned and reinstalled no change in starting. I have replaced the spark plug a couple of times with no change, checked the spark at the plug with necked eye and it looks the same electric start and kicking it, i have also taken a short piece of clear hose that just fits over the plug wire removed the plug cap slide the hose over the wire then take a short piece of a plug wire striped it back a 1/4 inch and slide it in the other end of the clear hose leaving a 3/16 gap between the wires put the plug cap on and put it back on the plug so i can watch the spark under compression and while it runs. the spark looks a little weak to me but it does have a good blue color. I then checked the stator on the black/red wire it ohms out at 141 ohms, the voltage with the electric start was 33 volts and while kicking it the voltage was 36 volts, i plan on getting another meter just to confirm this. with this being said it's looking like it may be the flywheel, but if i take it apart to replace that i would do the stator at the same time. It doesn't look like these parts are avalible from honda and the stators can be found after market any suggestions about the flywheel? Thanks for the help.

[barnett468]

HOLY CR_P DUDE, YOU KICKED A_S, XLNT JOB AND INFO, WOW!

STATOR OHMS – 141 is ok and in spec as you know. If you happen buy a new Chinese stator coil it might be more or might be less ohms but I heard they work.

VOLTAGE – I would like to see a little more but apparently these things start with that. I find it difficult to believe that a difference of only 3 volts can prevent it from starting with the electric starter unless it is only turning it over at around 50 rpm, lol. It does prove that it is turning over more slowly with the starter though. That obviously isn't helping.

SPARK - You have blue spark ALL the time but it is a weak blue. Seems to me it should still be enough.

CARB – It seems slightly rich imo which suggests to me that even if the engine turns over slightly slower when using the electric starter it should still suck enough fuel from the carb to start. This is why I asked you to do this.

NEW STARTER – Any Chinese markings on it?

Does it sound like it is turning it over fast enough?

I wonder if you can get it wound as a high torque starter which might spin a hair faster.


TESTS IF YOU WANT TO TRY

1. STARTING FLUID - Maybe spray some WD40 in the carb or plug hole and try the electric starter. If it does NOT start then clean the plug and try flammable brake cleaner or starting fluid. If it does NOT start the prob is likely NOT fuel related.

2. CHOKE - Put it on full choke, kick with throttle closed then open then look at plug to see if it is wet or bone dry.

3. PLUG GAP - Check the plug gap, if it is larger than .025” set it to that.

4. PLUG - Buy a “thin wire electrode” plug and gap it at .025”. Be very careful checking the gap. The electrode breaks easily.

5. STARTING RPM - Check what the rpm is while kicking and using the starter with a digital gauge if you have one.

6. COMPRESSION TEST - Do a compression test using the kicker and the starter with ignition off and throttle wide open.

7. BATTERY

a. Make sure it's fully charged.

b. Check it with a hydrometer.

c. Connect a high amp charger to it and try the electric starter. This has NO affect on the voltage to the coil but might spin the starter a bit more quickly. If it starts, I would buy the highest amp Japanese battery I can find and that might also cure your prob.

8. REMAGNETIZE FLYWHEEL - If you want to get your flywheel remagnetized, try the links below. Shouldn't cost much and shouldn't hurt.

http://www.scooterwest.com/item_deta...gnetizing/4045

http://www.google.com/search?q=magne...ient=firefox-a


Ok I’m runnin real low on straws now. Oh, wait...I got it...just use the kick starter all the time.

[joe83hd]

The starter has made in twian on it. It sounds like it is turning over good. I have put a small amount of gas in the plug hole then put the plug back in and tried the electric start with no luck. I have also givin it a small shot of starting fluid while i crank it with the electric starter with no luck. i have taken my hand and held it over the back of the carb checking for suction while cranking with the starter and it has suction and i get a hand full of gas. I have a old mechanical tach that i plan on check the cranking rpm with. The battery is new, and i have buy passed the battery with a 950 amp jump box straight to the starter with no change still cranks the same and won't start. I'll check the compression but i'm sure it will come out good the gentalmen that owns this ask me to do a top end rebuild because of this starting probelm and the compression was low, so i have bored it first over sized, laped the valves in check all clearances and still have the starting problem. I wish i could leave it as kick only but i don't thank the older gentalmen that owns it can kick it.

[barnett468]

Ok, you are on top of it.

I meant a digital tach, will your mechanical tach read by kicking it over?

Does this have the different size starter gear you spoke of. If so what were the gear sizes and what are they now?

The slower the engine turns, the lower the compression will be up to a point, this is why I was curious.

A Taiwan starter is obviously not a great sign but I’m sure some of them start these bikes just fine. Since the stator puts out 3 volts less with the starter it obviously isn't turning it over quite fast enough.

If the starter would turn it over as fast as the kicker it will start. If you connect 24v to the starter it should turn over more quickly and start but the Taiwan starter might melt. If you could get the starter to be an 8 or 10 v one it would start it, lol.

An orig starter might be better or possibly get this one rewound as a last option. I have had many automotive starters turn over some engines too slowly no matter how many amps I gave them so I had them rewound as high torque starters and they turned the engine over faster.

I would still do the plug test and others even though your spark test showed spark under compression. The plug test is fast, easy, and FREE!

[tri again]

The starter has made in twian on it. It sounds like it is turning over good. I have put a small amount of gas in the plug hole then put the plug back in and tried the electric start with no luck. I have also givin it a small shot of starting fluid while i crank it with the electric starter with no luck. i have taken my hand and held it over the back of the carb checking for suction while cranking with the starter and it has suction and i get a hand full of gas. I have a old mechanical tach that i plan on check the cranking rpm with. The battery is new, and i have buy passed the battery with a 950 amp jump box straight to the starter with no change still cranks the same and won't start. I'll check the compression but i'm sure it will come out good the gentalmen that owns this ask me to do a top end rebuild because of this starting probelm and the compression was low, so i have bored it first over sized, laped the valves in check all clearances and still have the starting problem. I wish i could leave it as kick only but i don't thank the older gentalmen that owns it can kick it.

Youse guys are my hero.
My 87 250es as posted before, did the same thing and I still have no idea why and / or why it decided to start working.
Kick start no prob, e start no go but sometimes would start when I let OFF the start button.
It was like that for, say, 40-50 times and then started working perfectly to the point I forgot all about it.
I'd guess it may have sat for a couple months before acting up, under cover outside.
Nipping the last tiny bit off the spark plug wire can give the plug cap fresh copper to bite into. Seen THAT fix psycho intermittent run issues. Fast and free to do.

Looking fwd to the real fix for sure.

[joe83hd]

Unfortunally i had to work late last night and was unable to do any test. Hopefully i will get time tonight. I also plan on calling the owner and try and get more details on when this started to happening.

[joe83hd]

Ok got some more test run last night, compression is 155psi with electric start and with the kicker, I used a small digital tach to check the cranking rpm's electric starter is cranking the motor at an average of 400 rpms and kick starter is an average of 100rpms. after that I put the tank back on and tried starting it again no luck with the electric starter but fired on first kick with kicker I let it run for a while and warm up. then shut it down and tried the electric start with no luck. after that I fired it back up with the kicker and checked out the charging system, and that doesn't seem to be right, the voltage is jumping all over the place while you run it. it will be 13.4 then 14.6 and 15.2 back to 14.6 it never stayed leveled out so with that happening i'm starting to think the stator is on the hairy edge. I have in the past seen the charging system affect the ignition system on some atv's.

[barnett468]

Wow, ok, not good.


VOLTAGE ERRATIC – Imo this is NOT the stator because it is strictly a mechanical device, meaning there are no resistors or transistors etc. that can vary. You can check the stator output directly also, just like you did with the ign coil in the stator. I think you will find that the output is likely steady and that the erratic numbers you are seeing are after the regulator so the regulator or something else might be bad.

That fact that the voltage is always above the battery voltage suggests to me that nothing is grionding which is obviously a good thing.

I would insure the battery is good with a hydrometer and fully charged and check it again. I have seen erratic voltage several times in cars due to a bad regulator or battery.

It’s hard for me to believe it only does 100 rpm with the kicker.

If in fact it does turn over faster with the starter then the starter is eating 3 volts from the ignition coil in the stator and this loss is enough to prevent the bike from starting even though you have blue spark under compression while using the starter.

Since it kick starts after using the starter it is NOT flooding.

Since it does not start using the starter with starting fluid even though it spins than the with the kicker, it dies suggest it is electrical related.

When you jumped the starter with the jump box, was it after the solenoid?

If not, I might disconnect the battery and kick start it. If it kick starts, this suggests the ign system is not connected in any way to the charging system.

If this is the case, I would leave it disconnected, disconnect the starter positive wire from the solenoid and jump the starter it has to start, there is no option according to your test results.

If it does than I would connect the starter wire to the solenoid and disconnect the power wire and start wires to the solenoid, if it does not start, the solenoid is the prob, if it does then the prob is further up the line.

Reconnect the solenoid, disconnect the stator charging wires and try it again. If it does start but the stator output from the test above is NOT erratic the prob is NOT the stator and is between the stator and the starter solenoid.

[danbur55]

what would happen if you unplug rect/reg? then try to e start

[joe83hd]

I did try unplugging the regulator and starting it and it would not electric start. i have seen ones in the past that would not have spark at the plug while you where cranking it and when you let off of the starter button it would fire and the regulator was bad. When i used the jump box i went straight to the starter. i will try it with the battery disconnected. I also plan on checking the rpm with the mechanical tach. The other thing i plan on doing is running another ground wire just for the heck of it.

[barnett468]

I did try unplugging the regulator and starting it and it would not electric start.

Of course it won’t, that’s because you unplugged that part of the electrical system when you did that, lol.

i have seen ones in the past that would not have spark at the plug while you where cranking it and when you let off of the starter button it would fire and the regulator was bad.

Yes but you said you DO have spark at the plug when using the electric start.

When i used the jump box i went straight to the starter. i will try it with the battery disconnected.

if you do it the way I suggest it should start as I mentioned. If it does not then use your clear plastic tube spark checker to see if it is getting spark.

[joe83hd]

They will run with the voltage regulator unpluged and they electric start will start them, i have done this in the past during trouble shooting. With the jump box test i had the clear tube in the plug wire and it had spark at the plug. Nothing is making any sense it should run. The other comment was just put out there becuase i have seen where some people are having that problem and that it makes me think the regulator maybe functioning correct, sorry for the confusion.

[barnett468]

well after the other tests it should hpofully locate the prob. i think your prob is one of the most mysterious i have seen.

one person mounted his cdi next to his tailpie and when the pipe heated the box it would run bad. he did not tell us that until post 100 after i told him several times his cdi must be getting hot, lol.

another guys bike idled ok but ran bad, after 100 posts he found his muffler was plugged after being told earlier to check it.

but he s the most

[joe83hd]

I have found a 1986 trx250 fourtrak that a friend has comparing the electrical componets on oem Honda parts they are the same so my plan know is to get it from him and do some parts swaping to see if I get any results. I talked with the owner of this 3wheeler and the original starter got burnt up while trying to start it. and he has told me that when he brought the bike the stator went bad on the charging circuit and they could not find one at the time and it was sent away and rewound, that was several years ago.

[joe83hd]

So the weather has finally gotten better and I was able to go get the 86 trx 250 fourtrax and start doing some parts swapping. First I changed the starters out and compared the starter gears, the gears where the same and the starter made no difference. So next I tried the CDI box with no difference and then I swapped out the stators and the three wheeler starts perfect with the electric start and the 4wheeler wont start with the electric start. I double check the readings on the stator and had a second person check it also the readings are with in spec and the only difference is that kicking it you 3 more volts output then when you electric start it. I hope this will help some others that maybe having similar problems. Thanks to everyone that helped out here.