Tri Z Engine Build

[onformula1]

Hell ya, we make your trucks here (please don't tell Trump) You're right about the alarm, if the radio won't play "Banda" the bad guys don't want the truck.

Ok, but I hear this often-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXvOEPsE0s

Personally I prefer MA'NA

[cr480r]

Nobody has mentioned that reducing the ignition lead increases the temperature inside the pipe. Compression ratio has an effect as well.. So does fuel type. Rather that helps or hurts performance depends on the pipe being used. Thus the need for tuning to know. Not to mention different machines have different timing curves and head designs. Mosh's findings with high compression liking retarded timing makes sense to me.. Barnett is looking at this like its a 4 cycle..

[El Camexican]

The 4” extended swing-arm was powder coated this week and came home for new bearings and a custom made jeswinehart chain slider. It fits like a glove and is a perfect match for the Mirror Orange powder coat. Thank you so much!

An orange Spiegler brake line, RAD nut and a KTM chain on a large JT sprocket finish it off. Still some suspension tweaking pending, got an expert working on that.

[onformula1]

^^^^ Man, that sure is Purdy!

Primo, work as always!

She looks like a stock swinger, only longer... Congrats!

I recently came across a extended stock Tri-Z swingarm it was pretty nice, but you could tell where it was extended the finish work was not like yours.

[El Camexican]

I recently came across a extended stock Tri-Z swingarm it was pretty nice, but you could tell where it was extended the finish work was not like yours.

That "look" added a few pounds to the trike The stock rectangular swing arm tubes are a weird dimension. They are about 2.18" tall. Not even a known Metric size. I had to add some sheet metal to the 4 X 2 rectangle I used to fill the 4" gap. The underside isn't as pretty.

[barnett468]

Barnett is looking at this like its a 4 cycle..

Wrong . If I looked at a 2 stroke like it's a 4 stroke, The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe, wouldn't be the most powerful 3 wheeler in the Universe.

It's odd that someone would really think that all these bikes that came from KAWASAKI actually magically timed themselves.

[onformula1]

That "look" added a few pounds to the trike The stock rectangular swing arm tubes are a weird dimension. They are about 2.18" tall. Not even a known Metric size. I had to add some sheet metal to the 4 X 2 rectangle I used to fill the 4" gap. The underside isn't as pretty.

Well, I tend not to lay down and check the bottom side with a flash light, so it's still a job well done!

[barnett468]

Nobody has mentioned that reducing the ignition lead increases the temperature inside the pipe.

The temperature inside the pipe is irrelevant if you don't have a gauge to read it AND don't understand what the temp readings mean in regards to tuning . The exhaust temp is also directly relative to the combustion chamber temp since that is where the heat inside the pipe originates from .

Mosh's findings with high compression liking retarded timing makes sense to me..

The higher the compression, the lower the timing must be to reduce detonation to an "acceptable" level if all else remains the same.

Each individual engine should have the timing curve set so it is optimal for that particular engine and the fuel being used etc.

Gear ratio and vehicle and rider weight etc also directly affect the potential for detonation.

The higher the dynamic compression, the higher the combustion chamber temps will be.

In general, once the cranking compression gets to around 180 and higher, a plug that is one step colder than stock should be used to reduce the potential for pre-ignition.

Pre-ignition and detonation are two entirely different processes.

Detonation can only occur after the plug has ignited the fuel.

Pre-ignition can only occur before the normal spark from the plug ocurs.
.

[cr480r]

The temperature inside the pipe is irrelevant if you don't have a gauge to read it AND don't understand what the temp readings mean in regards to tuning.

You don't need that info unless you are designing a pipe.

The exhaust temp is also directly relative to the combustion chamber temp since that is where the heat inside the pipe originates from .

Bingo!!!!!

[barnett468]

You don't need that info unless you are designing a pipe.

Well as far as not needing that info for anything other than for building a pipe, that depends . It is a some what useful tool when combined with an accurate wide band AFR meter to help determine the "tune" of an engine, but it should not be used by itself to do so, however, as a single gauge, they are more benefit on a turbo engine.

As far as some people using EGT's to design a pipe, that may be, however I don't now anyone that does, but I do know Daryl Bassani, Dave Miller, Harry Klemm, Dean Modesett, Lee Scheffers and Rob Muzzy, and none of them used EGT's to design pipes back in the day, and every one of these people had pipes that were on Professional race winning bikes, and some were on Championship Winning bikes.

Hell, even I even won a race over 30 riders which included several of the best ATC riders in the World using a pipe designed by Harry that wasn't designed using EGT's . This included some riders from Team Honda, and Jimmie White and Donnie Luce, and some of them had bikes that were easily worth 10 times or more than my poor old worn out TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe was, and they had spent literally hundreds of hours developing and testing theirs and I probably spent only spent four hours testing and tuning mine . In fact, I holeshot that race with tires I previously got from Jimmy that I had already run several races on and my bike had a STOCK swingarm and STOCK rear axle and STOCK front tire and STOCK TECATE flywheel and ignition and basically STOCK suspension.



Hey Barn...ya should have given them all a chance and rode a stock Honda!


.

[cr480r]

I am not talking about using egt for pipe development or tuning. I am talking about knowing pipe temperature to design from scratch using formulas or programs. Pipe temp is huge variable when calculating tuned length. Obviously someone who builds pipes is going to modify the pipe specs to achieve the desired results. Someone who is using existing pipes can use ignition timing to change the characteristics to some extent. Anyone who has played with timing on a two stroke knows this. As mentioned by onformula1. Generally adding timing lead helps power when off the pipe, and reducing lead can extend over rev. The results obviously vary from combo to combo. But to look at ignition timing purely from a cylinder pressure/detonation standpoint is 4 stroke mentality.

[barnett468]

I am not talking about using egt for pipe development or tuning. I am talking about knowing pipe temperature to design from scratch using formulas or programs.

This makes no sense so perhaps you are simply explaining it incorrectly . Also, "pipe temperatures" do not remain constant therefore, how can you use a variable to make an optimum unflexible design?

Someone who is using existing pipes can use ignition timing to change the characteristics to some extent. Anyone who has played with timing on a two stroke knows this. But to look at ignition timing purely from a cylinder pressure/detonation standpoint is 4 stroke mentality.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but imo, your comments suggest a lack of understanding of how timing works and that you are referring to FIXED timing curves.

Again, I beat the best riders in the world and did timing tests on many 2 and 4 strokes throughout my entire life including when I worked at Kawasaki, and if you think that I beat the best ATC riders in the world and helped make The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The World without knowing a lot about ignition timing, it would be an error.

The fact is, that in general, on engines that do not have a computer controlled engine management system that controls the timing to keep it at its optimum level, there is only ONE optimum CURVE for each type of build, and this curve is best determined on an engine dyno which we just so happened to have at Kawasaki R and D.

You put the 4 stroke OR 2 stroke engine on the dyno which puts a load on the engine and if it will be operating over a wide range of rpm, you basically change the timing every 1000 rpms until it produces the most power You also check the EGT and AFR and BSFC to determine if it is lean or rich and immediately address any serious concerns before continuing the test, then continue this process until you reach max rpm . Due to the power characteristics of 2 strokes, this curve is typically steeper [more aggressive/faster] on then it is on a 4 stroke.

After the test, you plot the curve, then you set the mechanical or digital advance unit so that it most closely replicates the curve on the graph . On a mechanical advance, this can be done by changing springs and the preload on the springs and the width of the gap between the advance stops . Any jetting issues are addressed and another test is performed to check results.


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[El Camexican]

The front rim on the trike remained one of the last untouched parts of the trike up to this evening, It was anodized silver and in very good condition (thank you CA weather), but it didn't match the polished ITC rears, so I decided to buff it up.

I've been polishing with the same green SS compound bars I brought with me from Canada years ago, but I recently used up the last one and had to buy some new ones. What a treat it is to start with emery and work your way down instead of trying to remove scratches with a green bar.

So if any one is looking to do this here's the step by step how to:

1. Wear proper safety equipment

2. Starting with a clean dry rim, place it in a plastic tub and spray it with Easy-Off Oven Cleaner, Spray both sides, but avoid the inner part of the rim as it's best to leave the anodizing on that part. Let the rim sit for 15 to 30 minutes. If it happens to turn black it's time to stop.



3. Rinse the rim with water to neutralize the cleaner and wash off some of the anodizing.

4. Wet sand the wheel with 320 grit paper to remove as much of the anodizing as possible and rinse as needed. Odds are there will still be some anodizing that is stuck to the aluminum. Once all the loose stuff is off rinse and dry the wheel and repeat step 2 & 3



5. Wet sand with 400 grit. Do small sections at a time and don't move on until there is no more anodizing, stains, pits or scratches. If there is damage like a gouge, or deep scratch now it the time to address it. This is the hardest most boring step, but also the most important if you want a nice wheel.



6. When the entire rim has been completed with 400 grit rinse it and switch to 600 grit. Sand till you feel the sand paper starting to glide over the surface more so than cutting into the material. This indicates you've removed the rough surface left by the 400 grit and are now "flat" against the 600 grit. Rinse the wheel and switch to 1000 grit, then 1500 grit and finally 2000 grit. If at any time you feel something under the sand paper that feels like a small stone rolling around, stop and wash the wheel and the sand paper as it is likely a piece of sand from a courser grit that got back onto the rim. If you don't rinse the rim, or change your water with each grit change you're just wasting your time.



7. Dress your buffing wheel with emery compound (black) and buff the entire wheel. If you encounter a small scratch you may be able to get it out with this compound. When wheel is completely buffed wipe off all excess compound.



8. Change the buffer wheel and dress the new wheel with brown compound and repeat step 7.

9. Change the buffer wheel and dress it with white compound. Repeat step 7.

10. Change the buffer wheel and smother it with Mothers polishing cream, or an equivalent and machine buff to a shine.



11. Final buff by hand with Mothers and a clean cloth.

12. Crack open a brew and marvel your handy work.

[onformula1]

The front rim on the trike remained one of the last untouched parts of the trike up to this evening, It was anodized silver and in very good condition (thank you CA weather), but it didn't match the polished ITC rears, so I decided to buff it up.

I've been polishing with the same green SS compound bars I brought with me from Canada years ago, but I recently used up the last one and had to buy some new ones. What a treat it is to start with emery and work your way down instead of trying to remove scratches with a green bar.

So if any one is looking to do this here's the step by step how to:

1. Wear proper safety equipment

2. Starting with a clean dry rim, place it in a plastic tub and spray it with Easy-Off Oven Cleaner, Spray both sides, but avoid the inner part of the rim as it's best to leave the anodizing on that part. Let the rim sit for 15 to 30 minutes. If it happens to turn black it's time to stop.



3. Rinse the rim with water to neutralize the cleaner and wash off some of the anodizing.

4. Wet sand the wheel with 320 grit paper to remove as much of the anodizing as possible and rinse as needed. Odds are there will still be some anodizing that is stuck to the aluminum. Once all the loose stuff is off rinse and dry the wheel and repeat step 2 & 3



5. Wet sand with 400 grit. Do small sections at a time and don't move on until there is no more anodizing, stains, pits or scratches. If there is damage like a gouge, or deep scratch now it the time to address it. This is the hardest most boring step, but also the most important if you want a nice wheel.



6. When the entire rim has been completed with 400 grit rinse it and switch to 600 grit. Sand till you feel the sand paper starting to glide over the surface more so than cutting into the material. This indicates you've removed the rough surface left by the 400 grit and are now "flat" against the 600 grit. Rinse the wheel and switch to 1000 grit, then 1500 grit and finally 2000 grit. If at any time you feel something under the sand paper that feels like a small stone rolling around, stop and wash the wheel and the sand paper as it is likely a piece of sand from a courser grit that got back onto the rim. If you don't rinse the rim, or change your water with each grit change you're just wasting your time.



7. Dress your buffing wheel with emery compound (black) and buff the entire wheel. If you encounter a small scratch you may be able to get it out with this compound. When wheel is completely buffed wipe off all excess compound.



8. Change the buffer wheel and dress the new wheel with brown compound and repeat step 7.

9. Change the buffer wheel and dress it with white compound. Repeat step 7.

10. Change the buffer wheel and smother it with Mothers polishing cream, or an equivalent and machine buff to a shine.



11. Final buff by hand with Mothers and a clean cloth.

12. Crack open a brew and marvel your handy work.

You know what is amazing?, I do the same thing. (Thank you, Nico for all your polishing help)

I did add 800 grit, blue compound (Zero grit, just polish) after the white with Talc and Eagle One Never Dull (wadding) for the final buff.

Now- Nico how do you polish a carb? and how do you get rid of Carpal Tunnel? I have heard of SS green compound and bought some, thoughts on aluminum?

[El Camexican]

You know what is amazing?, I do the same thing. (Thank you, Nico for all your polishing help)

I did add 800 grit, blue compound (Zero grit, just polish) after the white with Talc and Eagle One Never Dull (wadding) for the final buff.

Now- Nico how do you polish a carb? and how do you get rid of Carpal Tunnel? I have heard of SS green compound and bought some, thoughts on aluminum?

LOL! Carbs are a PITA, Demel's and Q-Tips. Some won't polish at all. Low quality aluminum doesn't polish well. I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel about 25 years ago when I was plumbing compressor units. Sucks, but I've got enough pain going on in other spots that I don't notice it much now.

Today is the first time I used white compound on aluminum instead of green, amazing! Show quality stuff. Shiny is an addiction!