My 1984 200es threw a shoe

[mendoAu]

This puppy is my work horse. Running good (a bit of a back fire as of late when throttling down for a shift) until I crossed the creek the other day (live off the grid on a mining site), winched it up at a steep grade and continued on my way home (a couple of miles ) and got almost there then a drastic power loss and complete stoppage. Pushed it home and waited until the next day to tackle the problem. Got a spark off the plug but installed a new Champion but can't get it to run/start without the thumb throttle at full. Back off and it dies and never will achieve a respectable RPM. Checked the fuel from tank and A-OK. I don't mind buying a new carb, or whatever it needs. I have noticed a build up of sluggy oil/dust on the cyclinder housing below the head so thinking maybe a blown head gasket. Soooo....if it it's a head gasket (which I'm leaning towards) I suppose maybe a complete re-build but I'd rather wait until winter for a project like that. I also am pondering a valve/timing problem but from running strong to gutless I tend to rule that out. What'da ya think????

[86125m]

It's probably the dad gum champian plug go find an ngk plug and I bet she will run

[mendoAu]

Actually I tried two different NGK's with same results. Ruled out the plug. Changed over to Champions awhile back after some bad expirance with NKG's. Bad one out of the box and they tend to oil foul in this 200 and in a couple of the small Hondas I run (over eight here on the mining site). I decided to order some parts and am in the midst of pulling the engine out. Can't afford a newer ATC so I'm going to freshen this whole bike up. Got a repair manual and dang near every tool out of the box....crazy how Honda made it so tough to pull the engine. A little different frame design would make it easier. Really...gotta drop the rear end to get the shaft drive outta the way...HA! I'm sure the head gasket needs replaced and will be checking everything down to the block. It's also shifting hard from first to neutral but this transmission/clutch scares me.

[joels]

I am gonna say that you are probably correct about a blown head gasket. I had 2 200s' that blew head gaskets. But i was beating on them pretty hard haha. I replaced 1 with a stock replacement and it held up fine. The other i did a high comp wiseco top end rebuild and it was only about a month or so and it started leaking from the head in a different spot.

[mendoAu]

Put a little time in on bigred today. Unbolted the rear end (shaft drive)...after removing skid plate and tires, slid it back an inch and got the engine off and cleaned. Taking it down this far does make it easier to wash everything down and check the wiring, baking soda solution around the battery box, etc.. Parts are still in transit so I think I'll just suck up gold outta the creek for a few days to pay for the parts order. (and thanks forum members for some great info while I'm spending time reading up on this project)

[kb0nly]

The 200ES motor removal is a PITA!!! I have done it about a dozen times now, twice on mine, long story, and at least ten others that i have pulled to rebuild the top end on.

You can actually remove and reinstall the motor without having to do anything with the rear end, takes a little practice but i can now get one out in about a half hour, maybe less if i really wanted to hurry. The key to it is taking it out the right side and taking the right stuff off. I generally pull the exhaust off the head and remove the pipe at the muffler, then disconnect fuel and remove carb, disconnect electrical, remove the shifter, and the last bit is slide that rubber boot back on the driveshaft tube at the motor end, the only thing holding the driveshaft to the motor is the spring pressure holding the splined universal joint to the output shaft and the boot connecting between the two. Once thats done remove all the motor mounting bolts and bracketry and lean her out to the right side and out she comes. Getting it back in however is the challenge but after doing it a few times i found a way to do that as well without any rear end teardown, i put the ass of her up on jackstands, rotate and slide the motor back in again from the right side then line up the driveshaft and rotate the back tires to spin the shaft, after a few turns it seats in and you can push the motor back to compress the spring and slide in one of the motor mount bolts, from that point on its just bolting everything back up.

I have yet to pull a rear end on a 200ES to get the motor out, sure its a little more work to get it back in, but its so much less wrenching on it as a whole! Good luck on the rebuild!

Oh one last comment... The Champion plugs have always been total crapola for me, they generally foul and die in less than a week of average use. The NGK in there now has about 8 months on it, hasn't fouled yet, but then i did a full top end rebuild and new carb so she's tuned up pretty good. But make sure you check your exhaust!! Believe it or not i fought mine fouling plugs and running like crap for about 3 months, turned out the rotted interior of the muffler was causing flow problems for the exhaust, swapped out the exhaust for a newer free flowing bolt on replacement and cleared up the fouling.

[mendoAu]

Thanks for the post kb0nly.
Ya know I really tried to remove this engine several ways but always had an issue with a half inch here and a half inch there and one welded on engine mount bracket. Wonder if this 1984's frame might be different than the ones you have worked on..I did run into trouble when I ordered rear brake shoes and made the mistake of getting 1985 shoes....different rear end and different shoes. Tried to get it out without dropping the rear end but having the boot tapered from end to end seemed impossible to "slide " out of the way and lacked the frame room to slide the engine far enough forward I decided to just go ahead and remove everything. Removed the engine out the left side. Took forever to get the parts from the post office and now rain for two days has slowed the project down some. Actually the second time around if ever needed will drasticlly reduce the labor time...most of the time was "head scratching" and caution not to damage anything. I agree that this muffler could be causing a problem, alot of burnt, rusty crap coming out of it. Speaking of which what a spendy little (graphite ?) gasket at the pipe connection.
And I guess the plug debate could go on forever.....HA!

[mendoAu]

Well since I hate threads without an ending here goes. I don't have an ending yet but I'll fill you in. kbonly I'll give you credit, for the life of me I just couldn't outwit that upper engine bracket and succeeded with the left hand removal and install. True, the rearend is extra labor but not bad with air tools and the rear wheels off. A couple of jackstands help. It also was a bit easier with a helper for a couple minutes to shove the rearend forward while I guided the spines together. With this puppy stripped it was helpful to replace all the hoses, reroute/replace alot of the wiring, clean up and lube all the moving parts, repair/clean the gas tank and install an in-line fuel filter that you can see if it gets clogged up. Learn about the timing marks/ valve adjustments, exhaust system and it's weak places, learned everything about the cam chain adjustment, never did see the timing mark or the flywheel thru the timing hole but removed the pull rope cover (which I removed the innards of along time ago since I'm an elect start type of guy and keep the battery fully charged) and located the mark on the pull starter sprocket thingy???) and along with that have it fire up the first crank of the starter. By jingles....shut it down and did a miners jig (67 year old gold miner after all) and followed that up with a shot of gin. OK time for a trip up the creek to the dredge. Nope..dang it...wouldn't start...no spark (tried four plugs). So kbonly...this is where you come in. Found this (http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...ent-MythBusted) and will patiently wait till Monday to pick up my new CDI (mysterious black box) at the PO box thirty miles away. Now I'm just kinda curious if this unit will be a piece of cake or not. Perhaps that thread about CDI's and the 84 es being a rare bird with reverse and all this unit will have to be rigged up to fit but a little wire soldering does not worry me much. I calculated some prices and divided by shipping times and ordered from an outfit in Southern Calif. insteed of the Phillipines for a grand total of $22.20. It's got six tabs and a round connection so........oh, and just for the hell of it I tossed a couple of NGK's in the rear boot just in case, HA!)




http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...ent-MythBusted

[mendoAu]

Update....http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...thBusted/page5

The round six pin I ordered did not work out so ordered a square cheapie and the connector from vintage connectors and I'm up and running great. Sure beats the 120 buck prices for a 84 200es round replacement.

[mendoAu]

Update....http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...thBusted/page5

The round six pin I ordered did not work out so ordered a square cheapie and the connector from vintage connectors and I'm up and running great. Sure beats the 120 buck prices for a 84 200es round replacement.

[350for350]

I'm glad to hear that you found the problem. Now you can go ride the wheels off that baby!

[coolpool]

Great news! When these 84's have ignition problems they sure go all the way. What a PITA trying to sort them out. Thanks to kb and a few other electrical gurus we'll all benefit from their contributions.

[barnett468]

Update....http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...thBusted/page5

The round six pin I ordered did not work out so ordered a square cheapie and the connector from vintage connectors and I'm up and running great. Sure beats the 120 buck prices for a 84 200es round replacement.

A Honda cdi going bad...I have never heard of that before.

if your head gasket is leaking enough to affect performance, you will hear it . . it will sound like an exhaust leak . . it woudnt hurt to do a compression test with a good gauge either.

[mendoAu]

A Honda cdi going bad...I have never heard of that before.

if your head gasket is leaking enough to affect performance, you will hear it . . it will sound like an exhaust leak . . it woudnt hurt to do a compression test with a good gauge either.

Well I'll tell you right now that without changing that honda cdi I'd still be walking. If you take the time to read that whole "myth busted" thread you will encounter lots of other guys that had cdi problems. The oil buildup around the bottom of the head was pretty much a dead giveaway that the gasket needed replaced. But even with a faulty headgasket there was a problem with intermittent/weak spark that has nothing to do with compression. It does have to do with a black fouled plug but so does an intermittent spark causing the same thing. So I'll stick to my guns and advise anyone that finds an intermittent/weak/on again off again situation with spark to read the myth busted thread and do themselves a favor before cleaning/replacing/adjusting anything else and to start out by getting a new cdi unit.
And just a shout-out to Del @ vintage connectors...a real stand-up guy.
So now it's time for the camo's and do a little trail riding to find those new deer tracks in the fresh rain drenched dirt.....ummm venison backstraps.