I got more time to pull real life numbers on the LI-ion batteries for say a 45w LED light. Higher capacity cells run around 3500mah, so piggy backing off the math from my last post, it should run about 1 hour with the 4 LI-ion cells. If you make a double pack (8 cells), it should last about 2 hours, basically the same as the 7ah lead acid, except you could pretty much just stick it in your pocket lol. Raw materials to build LI-ion battery packs are pretty cheap, from memory they run somewhere around $5 per cell for new. $20 for 4 + assembly time (solding, bus wire and such). I don't have the fancy spot welder, but I've seen great success by soldering them together if the right technique is used (heat kills these batteries). Down side is, if you punch a hole in them, or short them out, they can catch on fire and is probably a large liability to deal with. I suspect that's why most battery packs have a hard plastic shell around them like drill batteries and laptop batteries. Electric RC cars are just heat shrinked because weight is more critical and no people are riding on them lol.
Another route that could be taken is look into bike cycle headlights, they are LI-ion powered and light up pretty well too. I think they generally are around the 20-30w range. Nice self contained package assuming they mount on the 3 wheeler handle bars fine (atleast similar sized). They could be used WITH the OEM headlights too which might be a nice benefit. Could always buy two and have 3 lights going lol.
Also FYI on light bars, they are also spot or flood, spot is much more useful for headlights. Some large light bars have both, outer lights flood, while center lights are spot. All it is is the focus of the light is tighter on the spots, like a 60 degree angle instead of 120 degree.
[QUOTE=ps2fixer;1486049]I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in my big book of text, but it really comes down to specs and design.
Thank you ps2fixer. That's what I thought. That that particular light was some how meant for that particular application. But I'll go with the rectifier/regulator setup tho in building this setup. So I dont over volt anything I put on it. Thank you
I know a bit about capacitors, but not in the context of replacing a battery with a bank of them, but I can apply my understanding on them.
Benefit is they generally wear much better than a battery, expected life is something like 20+ years for a quality band. Also full discharging them won't damage them like lead acids.
Downfall is they discharge faster than a lead acid battery if I recall correctly, if you ride the machine every day or two, that won't be a problem, but if it sits a month the "battery" will be dead.
Their voltage might not be in the normal range as a lead acid when "fully charged", but the regulator should cap the max voltage of the alternator so it never goes above 13.5-14.5v. If the regulator fails, then the "battery" can go much higher voltage. Large capacity capacitors in power supplies I've seen are max voltages of around 200v or so, smaller ones seem to run around 50v, but maybe that's just on their design/how they are built instead of just their raw size.
Anyway, for the rating, I can't really say, but the standard in lead acid batteries is cold cranking amps, like 200CCA = 200 cold cranking amps. I suspect the 3 wheeler batteries are 50-100CCA, more won't hurt anything, too low and the starter won't spin fast enough. As far as power storage, lead acids are measured in amp hours, typical 3 wheeler battery is 7AH, but that's more along how long you can run the lights straight off the battery, or time cranking the engine. You can put a 100AH battery on and do just fine too. You'd want enough capacity to be able to start the machine even in cold weather, but I can't really give any numbers for what that really means.
Li-ion batteries are becoming a thing too, they require special charge controllers, but for the most part are better than lead acids in almost every spec. I think their self discharge is slightly higher than lead acid, but both were similar numbers. Li-ion batteries have the same problem that lead acids have, when it's too low of voltage, the battery degrades. On a lead acid, that's around 11.5-12v (full charged is 12.6v), but Li-ion it's more around 2v per cell, full charged is 3.6v. Most charge controllers on the Li-ions also monitor discharge, so max amp output is limited and the cells are monitored for voltage. That's why a Li-ion drill suddenly dies when the battery goes out instead of slowly dieing out like the old batteries. For the current time, I think the best technology battery wise is Li-ion, they store the most power in the smallest (and lightest) area, can have huge discharge specs, generally charges in 1-2hr, has a slow self discharge rate, and their life is based more or less on charge cycles (300-500ish, some newer ones are up to 1000.). Charge cycles is defined as 100% capacity then recharged, so if a battery is used to 50%, then recharged, it used 1/2 a charge cycle. These batteries don't do well in very hot environments (engine bay of a car), I'm pretty sure there's a spec for their max temp, but on an ATV that's not really an issue so much. I don't recall any issues with them in the cold, but they are just like any other battery, in the cold they hold less power.
Anyway, I'm not an expert on batteries and such, but I've done some research on them. One of my side hobbies is getting enough supplies together to go off grid, which means a large battery bank (lead acid is cheapest, Li-ion takes up the least amount of room), charge controller/inverter, and the power source (wind/solar).
Thank you again for your time and explanations. I am looking to install a 45W LEd headlight on my brothers 83 ATC 200 and am trying to figure out the best route to go.
Yea that's the problem with most cheap parts (generally China made), they lack specs. Anyway, the first link looks to be close to what you'd need, but I doubt it's ment for an ATV (harsh enviroment).
The second item is 100% the wrong thing, it sounds to be a fancy relay deigned around keeping a camera signal clean.
Anyway, like normal, I like to look at specs first.
1983 ATC200 has a single phase AC generator with no regulator (the lights are designed to eat all the power from the alternator when on). The alternator's max power is 50w @ 5,000rpm.
Bare minium you'd need a regulator (to keep voltage in range), and a rectifier (to convert ~9-14.5v AC to DC). Optional, but best results is with a battery, DC out from the rectifier would be the charge controller for a lead acid (standard) style battery.
Something alone these line would work well, but again, China parts, and lack of specs. I have another China supplier I'm going to try to get hard specs from to try to collect together a "DC Power" kit. If you're not in a rush, keep an eye on the 3ww shop for that product. Hoping to get it designed/listed within a month or two. Of course having someone test fit a kit would help me out to be sure I got everything right.
Poorly worded, no pinout, but this should be a regulator/rectifier both in one. Basically AC power is one pair of pins, and DC out is the second pair of pins. Of course this is a China supplier site, so products ship from China, takes a week or so from my experience (large orders though, so shipping though Fedex) http://www.chinesemotopartswholesale...art-p-841.html
I personally would avoid any China parts with wiring on them, their wire quality is horrible.
Here's one with a pinout, I'd guess the wiring would match the others but can't really guantee it. Physically it's smaller, and has less of a heat sink, so my mind says it's designed for lower wattage, but 50w is a pretty low amount so probably would work fine too. The last photo shows the pinout, kind of confusing how they did it, so can't say 100% what the pin functions are..
I can make a pig tail to plug into those regulator/rectifiers. Doing quick math in my head, should be about $10 shipped. Or I can make an adapter so the OEM harness doesn't have to be cut and the mod ends up being fully reversible (if you do the same thing for the headlights and such).
Anyway, when I figure out a solid product for the DC power kit, I'd be testing it on my 350x, which has the highest output among the 3 wheelers (250es/sx are the same spec). If it works on my 350x with no issues, then it should work on any other single phase AC generator based engine (250es/sx are 3 phase but have a stock regulator/rectifier).
Here's another generic wire diagram, might be more accurate than what I figured on on the China diagram. I suspect the yellow wire in the diagram is regulated AC power.
I have to admit, I am a little confused by the wiring. In the schematic from the 83 200 service manual (Attached) it shows that I have a Yellow, Green and Black/Red coming from my stator. I do follow that the yellow wire would go to one of the AC inputs on the Rectifier/regulator but if I was using a Big red direct replacement such as this https://www.ebay.com/itm/Voltage-Reg...!-1:rk:28:pf:0 What would go to the other AC input? It looks as if the green Green wire coming off my stator goes to ground.
That wire diagram doesn't match the one I have for the 83 ATC200 quite 100%, so here's the one I have. Main differences I see are the connector types used, basic wire layout/colors seem to be the same.
Anyway heres the wire functions by color from the alternator.
Green - Engine/Frame ground
Yellow - AC hot wire (single phase)
Black (connects to Black/Red) - CDI AC power source
Anyway, that ebay listing looks identical to one of the regulators my China supplier has and was originally designed for a Chinese quad/motorcycle of some sort. 35amp is a pretty crazy spec, 18 guage wiring max amps is around 16amps, 14 gauge wiring is 32 amps, they would need 12 gauge+ wiring to meet that spec safely with the wiring. I doubt that's the case, likely it's 18 gauge, or worse 18 gauge CHINA wire. If it didn't have a wire lead, I'd be more in support of it, but I just wouldn't trust the wiring personally.
Down further on the listing, they give more power specs.
Maximum Charging Current: 25A-35A/300W-500W
Now they give a range for the max? Kind of confusing. Also 25a * 12v = 300w, but 35a * 12v = 420w, they are inconsistent on their numbers. Even at the lower spec, if that's accurate and the wiring holds up, it should be about the perfect spec for any 3 wheeler (max power I've seen is 200w).
Anyway, not trying to bash the part, I just like accurate specs when there's specs listed lol.
As far as the wiring, their own instructions are invalid. On Honda machines the Green/White wire is for the pluse generator, but I can take a guess on the wiring based on their diagram.
The two yellow wires are for the AC input, which is the Yellow hot wire and the Green Ground wire. The way they show the red and black wires makes me think that's power and ground for the DC power. You'd probably have to take a multi meter and test it to be sure.
Their write up is very confusing to me, seems like a write up for a car or something. The ignition power is completely separate from the lighting power on most Hondas, but they mention about replacing the coil and such. They also blindly suggest wiring 2 of the 3 wires from a 3 phase alternator but forget to mention that it's max power output will be less than stock. I'm not an expert but 1 coil instead of 3 generating power suggests to me 1/3 the power output. Also it basically promises that the capacitor in the regulator can start the machine, that's a flat out lie, no way it can store enough energy for that unless I'm underestimating the size of it. Also a bad battery generally has a lot of draw, so even if it did store the energy, the junk battery would eat it up. Anyone with a Diesel pickup with dual batteries would know that if they have ever experienced a bad battery.
I have an 83 ATC200E harness on hand, so I can give the exact pinout of the connector.
While looking at the end of the connector with the latch on top, the pins number like this
1 2
3 4
Female (harness side)
1 - Green (Ground)
2 - Red (+12v DC)
3 - Yellow (AC power in)
4 - Yellow (AC power in)
Male (regulator side)
1 - Red (+12v DC)
2 - Green (Ground)
3 - Yellow (AC power in)
4 - Yellow (AC power in)
On this harness, the AC power from the alternator never touches anything except the regulator/rectifier, so the ground wire is isolated. Also the diagram shows at the alternator it doesn't ground one of the ends of the coil. The regulator would work on your machine yet, but you'd have to tap into the wiring between the engine and alternator and make sure the alternator green wire doesn't pass though to the rest of the harness. Based on the wire diagram, the alternator internally doesn't ground either, just like the 83 200e. The Green wire from the harness would hook up to the green wire on the regulator, and the yellow wire on the harness side would hook to the red. The lights will now receive DC power instead of AC power.
Oh also found out, the wire diagram you have posted is for a 1982. Didn't look at it too close, but it's more generic wiring than what the engine/harness has. It's wiring is what their adapter wiring used, not the colors from the engine. or the harness.
I'll ask my china supplier about the specs of the regulator they have and the wiring. It's one of the ones I was looking at for the DC power kit I want to build.
I just found where the Yellow and Green from the generator up to the light case and started the wiring there before it went to the swtich. Was a pretty easy process for the most part. The trike says it's producing approximately 13.3V DC at idle and 13.8 at about half throttle.
Thank you for your input!
Looks like the same regulator/rectifier I plan to use in my kits, except no wire leads (I don't trust china wire whenever possible lol). Also it's the same LED headlight I've sold in the past and restocking on. They are super bright even just on dims. That price is a steal of a deal too, not much more than "wholesale", clearly they have a cheaper supplier than what I've found.
Since you're running a battery now, you can use the DC power to power 12v aux items designed for cars, like GPS, cellphone charger etc. Without the battery to smooth the DC out is a bit of a risk if the device will work or not.
Also FYI, the battery will drain voltage from the generated power, so the max voltage might be higher than 13.8, ideally max should be about 14.5v or lower. You can test it by disconnecting the battery and seeing what the max voltage runs to with no load on the alternator. Besides that, looks like good numbers too me =).
Here's a wire diagram I built for reference on my DC101 DC Power Kit for any 185/185s/200/200s. I suspect this should help visualize the process a little more. Also note, the black/red wire is a pass though wire to be compatible across both wiring versions of those engines, some have a dedicated black/red wire outside the connector. Hoping to have the kit in stock after testing etc around Christmas to New Years depending on shipping times.
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