good experiences with brake shoes?

[Bernard3rd]

Do any of you have good experiences with aftermarket brake shoes vs the stock models...

I'm curious as to whether braking power and/or feel can be improved with something other than the original factory models. If it is even possible to achieve with drum brakes...

Say, for instance, something like this:

https://www.denniskirk.com/ebc/sinte...prd/194961.sku

Or is it better to just stick with stock/OEM?

Thanks

[fabiodriven]

Nothing is better than OEM when it comes to brake shoes.

[ATC King]

I've never noticed any difference in brake shoe brands. A quality aftermarket shoe works just fine for me.


Some things to consider:

Many brake drums are worn out. Besides the obvious, that means new shoes do not have full contact on the drum because their arch does not match the worn drum.

Dry and rusty brake cables require more effort to move. So do ungreased brake arm shafts.

Cable operated brake levers flex. Anyone can pull as hard as they want, but the lever will flex and limit power transmitted to the brake. I can adjust a brake until there is a 1/2" from the lever to the grip on initial braking, but pulling harder causes the lever touch the bar, but the brake doesn't have anymore stopping power. The lever and perch, flex.


You're dealing with manual, cable operated, drum brakes on decade's old machines. Honda actually used hydraulic drum brakes on some of their early ATV models, like the 300 Fourtrax. They still had many problems, like water ingress, and because they were 'sealed' the water stayed in and reeked havoc. I wouldn't own a 300 Fourtrax without a aftermarket disk brake conversion. The drum brakes on those was the major flaw, the quad itself was tough, simple, and a great ATV.

On the ATCs, I've seen and personally had shoe lining delamination, which means the brake shoe material has separated from the actual shoe. That usually causes a locked brake. It happened on older motorcycles with front/rear drum brakes as well. I think it's caused by moisture and freezing weather, but that's not a certainty. I've seen it happen with OE and aftermarket brake shoes. I won't ride a machine with old shoes because of those experiences. I've literally, nearly been thrown over the bars because of it (brakes locking at speed, without warning).



I've used those 'fancy' shoes with groves in them, I've used OE shoes and just about every other brand out there. I'd buy and use whatever is the best price.



Want to know how worn the drum is, or how poorly the shoe matches it? Simply take the new shoe and draw a line down the center, end to end, with a Sharpie. Install the shoe, use the brake, and remove the shoe. If any of the marker line is left, the shoe isn't contacting the drum and the shoe needs reshaped to get full braking power. That used to be called brake shoe arching and there was equipment to do it. Good luck finding that obsolete equipment or people with the knowledge of how to use it.

To summarize, it's not the brand of shoe, but a bunch of other factors that affect the braking power on these old machines.

[fabiodriven]

To summarize, it's not the brand of shoe, but a bunch of other factors that affect the braking power on these old machines.

Oh I wholeheartedly object. I spend a lot of time on my SX's and we ride hard. I'm hard on brakes, front and rear. Just last year I swapped out my OEM front brake shoes because they were original from 86. They still worked great but too many times I've seen old brake shoes separate in the woods which kills the ride for that person that day.

My shoes were over 30 years old and I had gotten away with it long enough. When I went to buy OEM shoes I found they were discontinued, so I was forced to buy aftermarket. I installed the new shoes and adjusted everything up, and they were spongy. I assumed they would wear in and work fine. They didn't. I kept adjusting them up and they always felt odd and didn't work right. I was disappointed. Then one time just this past fall I ed the front brake and there was a weird kind of pop and the lever pulled much closer to the bar. We're miles into the mountains so I released the brake and it was dragging. I pushed the lever back out and the brake disengaged. I never touched the front brake lever again and then I found NOS brake shoes on eBay. I bought those, installed them, problem solved. This is not the first time I've had issues with aftermarket brake shoes either, not by a long shot. The SX and Big Red guys I ride with will all tell you the same thing.

[ps2fixer]

I live in Michigan, lots of freezing then unfreezing, it's very rare to see OEM brake shoes separate from the support material. I think that happens more on shotty low quality brands. For example, my dad's 99 warrior's rear caliper brake pads worn out (we owned since new and we abused the hell out of the machine in mud etc). He bought the cheapest thing on ebay at the time, some no name probably made in China junk. Used the brakes a couple times and then no brakes, checked it out and the metal backings were all that was left. I don't know what he did since then, but it has rear brakes now, maybe he bought OEM, or maybe he went with a brand name aftermarket. It's my quad now but it just sits, I always go to my Honda ATC's when I want to ride.

I've had a lot of Honda 3 wheelers, my main riders are 350x, 250sx, 250es, and when I first got into 3 wheelers, I rode a 200es all the time. I'm a flat lander up here so brakes are not super super critical if you ride smart etc. I bought some cheap brake shoes on ebay for the SX and they wore out in a month or so riding. They had great stopping power, but it was so soft they wore out fast. Later down the road I wanted to get rear brakes working on my 250sx & 250es for trike fest because of the hills etc. Scanned over ebay and found an aftermarket brake shoe that seems to be a brand name. Bought a couple of the EBC solid brake shoes (not grooved) and they worked fine. Might not have been amazing braking power, but the hard material they are made of are like car brakes. It's been ~6 years and no problems besides the SX brake arm starting to stick (need to clean it up and re-grease). I liked them so much since they actually worked and were cheap, I sniped a few more EBC brakes for my machines on the cheap (like $10 shipped each pair).

I'd say you can't beat OEM if available, but aftermarket is fine, just make sure there's a brand to relate the quality to. No name/generic aftermarket is generally garbage. Kind of shooting my self in the foot with this statement, since my products I sell are generic unbranded, but I kind of "own" the product and only sell what I see is high enough quality to not have issues with returns etc.

I just clicked the link in your post and noticed it's EBC brake shoes. My personal experence with them is they are fine. I ride in mud/sand a lot and they are a hard material like a semi metallic car brake shoe. General rule of thumb, softer the braking material, the more friction/stopping power it has, but also the quicker it wears. If you need to be able to lock up the tires at any time at full speed, these might not be for you, otherwise they should be fine.

[yaegerb]

I agree with Fabio. OEM is the only way to go. I needed pads for the 86 that I am picking up from BKM in April and all they offer is aftermarket so I blew the cob webs out of my wallet and bought Galfer pads as I have heard good things. I will eventually make a thread about that bike and post up thoughts of the Galfer. I would have gladly spent more money on OEM if they had been available. No comparison.

[ATC King]

I'll say, I was right there with other people on using OE shoes on ATVs, years ago.


After having and seeing several OE Honda shoes delaminate, I'm not paying a premium for them anymore.


I don't know what causes it, but OE isn't immune from it. I've used EBC, OEM (Honda), Versah, DP, and probably another brand name or two. I'm not suggesting OE are bad, they just haven't proven to be any better to me, in braking power or longevity. That's also not questioning anyone else's experience and outcome, that is just mine. If OE works better for someone else, that's what they should use and suggest to other riders.


The rear shoes on a 200ES are time consuming enough to replace and I certainly don't want to use a cheap shoe that isn't going to last and have been satisfied with my choices.

Edit: I found a YouTube video by someone who had Yamaha OE shoes delaminate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkjtvioQdKU
The package is from the new shoes, but he clearly says the delaminated shoes were stock. It can happen to any brand if it happens to OE.

[fabiodriven]

OEM shoes are always best, there is a difference. Same goes for clutches.

[ps2fixer]

@ ATC King

I should probably mention that I've seen OEM shoes delaminate too, but I've never had new OEM do that, only old ones that sat around for a very long time. I suspect it's something with how they are glued on to the backing material. Maybe moisture is what kills them. I guess it's like anything anymore, any new part can come out of the box and not work. I've had that once with brand new spark plugs, can't remember the brand but it wasn't NGK or Denso since I was working on a early 90's Grand am. It had a miss under high load, like cruising at speed and try to speed up 5mph it would start missing. When I pulled the spark plug wires to check which one was missing, the one plug broke. Took it back and exchanged, and no more problems until the head gasket went like a month later. Not sure why I've had such bad luck with American made vehicles. Ever since I've been running Japanese brands I haven't had weird things where just randomly the head gasket blows etc. I guess the Grand am is basically a throw away car, but the Corolla I have is more or less the same class of car and I got it as a city beater and put 80k miles on it (305k now) and it still runs great, just rust is killing it.

[barnett468]

I'm curious as to whether braking power and/or feel can be improved with something other than the original factory models. If it is even possible to achieve with drum brakes...

Arcing any new brake shoes to the drums will make them work better sooner, however, they will eventually arc themselves in.

If you want to reduce the amount of force needed on the brake pedal or lever to stop the slow or stop the vehicle, you can sometimes change the leverage ratio of the system, but this will also make the pedal or lever operate over a greater distance, and this distance may be greater then there is physically room for the pedal or lever to operate in, so you need to make sure you have enough room if you change the ratios.

Or is it better to just stick with stock/OEM?

If you want oem parts and they have been discontinued and your dealer does a search for them at other shops to see if they have any in stock and they do not, you can try ebay, and if you don't find them there,, you can try the site listed below. They have the largest inventory of discontinued parts that I know of, and if it shoes they have it in stock, it is most likely they do.

cmsnl.com


Here's an example. The rear pads for an 86' 250r have been discontinued, but cmsnl has them in stock.

https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250r-...l#.XFp-WLiIbIU



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[Bernard3rd]

Many thanks for all of the informed opinions and experience logged here. I will be headed to Moab this Fall, so I think that I'll put new OEM shoes on my 185s and 125M. Brake shoe Arcing sounds like a good idea also and I was not aware of this service prior to starting this thread. Looks like Racetech in Corona CA offers this service... I have lubed the cables and they are running nice and free, but perhaps some new cables are in order also.

Regards to all.

[ArizonaATC]

Well I heard EBC was suppose to be great but I wouldn't know since the people shipped me the wrong brake shoes.

[twomanytoys]

I just put some $6.99 shoes on my 350x...will report back in a while.