Voltage drop at starter.

[2ringers]

1984 Honda 200ES. Been in the family since new.

When trying to start, it will barely try to crank. Sounds like a dead battry. With the compression release engaged, it will barely crank enough to trip the release, then nothing.

Voltage drops to 6.7 volts at the starter, solenoid and battery. New battery, load tested as good. With the wire removed from the starter, there is no voltage drop. I removed the wire from the starter and solenoid and checked it with an ohmmeter and no abnormal resistance. Cleaned the connections and hooked it back up. Removed the ground wire at both ends, cleaned connections and checked with ohmmeter. Removed wire from battery to solenoid and cleaned the connections and checked the wire with ohmmeter. I made a new wire for between the solenoid and battery anyway, but no difference. I tried using a jump pack, no difference. I hooked a second battery in parallel with the new battery, no difference. In bought a new starter, no difference.

With the starter removed, it will spin and there is no voltage drop. When the starter is installed again, voltage drop and barely tries to crank.

I tried jumping the solenoid. Same result.
I unhooked the wire to the starter and jumped directly from the battery. Same thing.

It will start with the pull starter.

What am I missing?

[350for350]

The electric starter probably needs to be rebuilt or replaced. When the starter is removed from the engine, it will be easier to make it turn over with power since it's only turning itself and no part of the engine.

[shortline10]

It’s either the starter , battery or a battery terminal issue, check both + and - connections .
The ground wire from the battery to the chassis needs a real good connection .

[ATC King]

New starter or new to you (used)?


How well is the starter body grounded? The front should be considered isolated because of the O-ring. The rear of the starter body, and the mounting bracket it all bolts to should be clean, bare metal (no paint, metallic coatings OK). At least the starter case and bracket anyway.The bolts going into the case will do the rest, paint on the side cover where the bracket bolts is fine.

If wanting to test the condition of a cable, you can voltage drop test it with a simple voltmeter. Live positive or negative cable, it doesn't matter as long as it's loaded to operational conditions.

Both voltmeter leads go on the same wire. For instance, testing the ground cable, put one lead on the cable at the battery and the other lead on the cable where it bolts to the frame or engine. Engage the starter and record the voltage on the meter, you'll see the difference, how much voltage you're loosing from one end to the other. It works the same on positive cables.

There are easy to find voltage drop charts online, based on cable material (copper, aluminum, tinned copper, copper coated aluminum, etc.), gauge, and length.

No need to remove a cable or mess with anything else, just hook up the voltmeter, record, and research. Resistance tests on larger cables is unreliable, this is the much better method, faster, and requires less work.

[2ringers]

Brand new starter. Issue is the same with the old starter and the new one.
Ground connections have been thoroughly cleaned.
I think I can rule out all of the positive wires as I have taken a jumper wire from a battery positive to the starter terminal with the same results.
The only thing I have not done is tried a ground wire to the starter.

[2ringers]

Voltage drop from negative battery terminal to ground point is 0.17 volts.
Voltage drop from positive battery terminal to starter terminal is 0.8 volts.
Voltage reading from ground to starter terminal when cranking with starter installed is 6.7 volts.
Voltage reading from ground to starter terminal when cranking with starter removed is 12.7 volts.

[ps2fixer]

Sounds like a weak battery. Could use a set of jumper cables to a car battery and try to jump start the machine to confirm a larger capacity battery helping solves the problem.

In the first post it was said that the battery load tested good, what was the process for that? The ATV starters should only draw around 100 amp, unlike a car starter that can spike to 400+ amps before it drops down. The typical load tester is designed for car batteries and is a 10 second load at 100 amps with a fully charged battery, and the voltage it's at while under load after that amount of time gives a rough indication of it's CCA capacity.

You'll never see a voltage drop with zero load, even through a very bad connection or even if you put a resistor in line. It's when there's power flow when voltages drop due to resistance.

I'm wondering if too small of a battery was installed or something, I think they call for something like a 12ah (small batteries aren't normally rated in CCA), the wrong type of battery could be possible too, like a AGM style battery I'm pretty sure tends to have a lower peak output.

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned that I've seen, how hard is it to pull the engine over by hand? If it's hard to turn over, it would work the starter harder, draw more power, and could end up effectively at the same situation. I'm pretty sure those have a one way bearing for the starter, if that's going, it's possible it could slip and not turn the engine over as fast, but the starter load would be less in that case.

To add a little context, my F250 with brand new interstate batteries (7.3L diesel), while cranking with glow plugs running it drops to around 9.5v. It's a very heavy draw on the batteries though, glow plugs alone are 200 amps, starter is probably another 300-400 amps after the initial spike. I'm sure the battery cables are less than perfect connection, so the voltage at the batteries are probably a fair bit higher, that's something I was planning to fix/upgrade on it.

[ATC King]

The positive cable needs replaced, but you've bypassed that and it still wasn't the problem.

Replacing both cables would be best.

Beyond that, try jumping the starter by itself with the jumper ground connected to the starter bracket and directly feeding it from the jumper to the positive starter post. You can leave the key off if just wanting to see if it turns over faster.

If you still have the problem it's either the starter or something in the mechanism under the cover.

I understand it's a new starter, but N.E.W. can mean Never Even Worked. Also, if for some reason the mech is dragging and you've been poking the starter a bit too long, that wasn't exactly good for it. Same as extended cranking or low voltage can damage a starter.

If you directly actuate the starter and it's still an issue, may as well pull the cover and have a look. Starter mech issues aren't common on the 200ES, but if it's ever kicked back while starting something may have been damaged. I'd have to look if the 200ES mech has any anti-kickback capability, but I don't think it does. What happens, and I've seen it on other machines with electric start but without anti-kickback, if the engine kicks back the force isn't relieved in a controlled manner so it starts breaking parts, typically on the case bosses where the rotating assemblies are held.

It's not some wild event, just a pop and crack.

[ATC King]

Since the OP posted the voltage loss values, I'd like to point some things out, not necessarily about the current issue but for anyone reading the thread in the future.

The OPs loss of 0.17 on the ground and 0.80 on the positive is a volt of loss at the starter. Battery voltage drops during starting and it's not unrealistic for it to be near 10 volts. Subtract another volt and it's at 9 to the starter. With everything working as it should and not being in extreme temperature, it may start okay. In cold temps, with thicker oil, probably not.

The 200ES doesn't have any type of auto-decompression mechanism, like many modern engine do. The 200ES battery is larger to compensate. Looking at most modern engines of a similar displacement, they use smaller batteries because they have an auto-decomp, which allows the engine to spin more freely before starting.

For an extreme comparison, modern 18 wheelers use a 12v system, but they have 4-5 large capacity batteries and cables with a larger gauge than anyone will see outside of commercial equipment use. The batteries alone weigh hundreds of pounds. In the winter, block heaters are still needed for them to start if they sit unused overnight.

The 200ES has a starter clutch, but it's an assembly, unlike modern small engines that basically use a one way bearing as the starter clutch. More weight and complexity on the 200ES starter clutch. It also doesn't have a torque limiting device that prevents damage to the starting mechanism if something kicks back, even during engine shut down.

The electric starting system on a 200ES seldom has issues, but these things are 40 years old now. The starters lack factory lubrication, the brushes are worn, and they're just dirty inside by this point. I've been able to disassemble, clean, lubricate, and reinstall old, non working starters on a 200ES, but it's just a bandage. They may work for years, or maybe less.

Replacing the cables and using a good battery will extend the life of the starter on an old trike, but once the system has issues, it's time to rebuild the whole thing if it's to be reliable. A new battery, cables, and starter.

The recoil starter on a 200ES is just meant for backup, it's not as robust as the other trikes that only have a recoil. If the recoil is relied upon to start, it won't last and parts are getting harder to come by. Spend the money and fix the electric start, or run the trike into the ground and junk it. These old trikes take some money to keep going now.


To the OP, I'd check engine compression. A worn engine may not start with the electric start but may still with the recoil.

[ATC King]

I just checked cranking RPM on my 200ES.

Not having looked in the manual, I doubt there's a cranking RPM spec, but it's a common spec in many automotive and equipment manuals.

My 200ES has a tach, sort of. It's under the seat on the ignition module and only two digits. Not enough resolution for an accurate measurement at low RPM. I just tested the ten-year-old AGM battery and it's at 75% capacity, so my starting speed with the electric may be low.

It'd be nice if there were more tests like this on multiple machines, to get a relatively accurate dataset. There aren't any new 200ESs available to compile new, stock data.


On the electric starter, 200RPM. Recoil was 300RPM. That sounds a bit low but it's typical for a recoil or kickstarter to spin an engine faster than electric, so that part aligns with my data.

It could be 249 and 349 RPM for all I know because of the tach display limitation.

An inexpensive inductive tach may work well enough for the test. A hand-held mechanical tach would work with the recoil removed. It's not difficult data to record and there are multiple tools, some quite inexpensive.



Also, I opened the throttle completely while using the electric start. That's not advisable, unless the ignition is off. Lots of clacking going on and could certainly damage something. I don't believe I've ever done that, even just out of curiosity. That shows the lack of any torque limiting feature built into the electric start and the one way bearing in the 200ES is an assembly, with individual parts available and replaceable, unlike more modern machines that use a manufactured one way bearing instead of the assembly used on a 200ES. The Big Red was the first electric start ATV from Honda, and it shows in the design.

I could certainly see how someone may spray the engine with starting fluid to get it running, holding the throttle open, then it kicks back and breaks something. There's even more of a chance of that happening when an engine wasn't running properly to begin with. Not necessarily the case here, but I'm sure that situation has played out, at lot. I know I wouldn't want to be gripping a recoil handle when something like that happens, organic damage may be incurred.

[ps2fixer]

Worth a note, the 84 ATC200ES wasn't the first electric start, however it's probably the same design as the 82-83 ATC200E. Don't forget these are effectively motorcycle engines and motorcycles have had electric start for a long time, I have a 1973 Yamaha with electric start. Might have been a different team that worked on the atv engine designs, but I don't think any of the old machines had any sort of fancy starter slip protection system. The only version I've seen of that is the bendix design of starters where if the engine spins faster than the starter, it pushes the gear back in.

Even cars tend to not have any sort of system like that at least on the Jap side. Look at like a 2001 Toyota Camry, when the solenoid is energized, it pushes the gear into the flywheel gear, and it's a gear reduction starter with no clutching system. Those starters are known to be insanely reliable, so I don't think it's an inherent flaw of the older starters as long as they were designed beefy enough, but 40+ years of wear on the other hand might be pushing end of service life for the one way bearings and such on the atv engine, it's a wearable item so makes sense they go bad at times. Take a 40+ year old car that's been used for most of that time span and find one that hasn't had the starter replaced since it was new, I suspect that would be quite rare.

[ATC King]

That's why I said Big Red and not 200ES. The 200E was a Big Red.

Yes, electric start had been around on motorcycles decades before, but typically not on small displacement engines. Pretty much every motorcycle before the 1970's can be considered small by today's standards. Even the larger motorcycle engines weren't exactly all that powerful and had very low compression.

Nopeds (mopeds without pedals) were probablly some of the earliest, smallest, mass produced motorcycle(ish) engines that got electric start. It was about ease of use with those as they were intended for short distance urban commuters, and to a large extent, marketed to women. You'd be hard pressed to find a motorcycle advertisement that showed a female rider back then, but there's an abundance of women riders on mopeds and scooters in advertisements, then again, attractive women were used to sell bicycles before that. There were quite a few bicycle ads 100-120+ years ago that used tasteful images of nude women. They used women in the motorcycle ads to attract men, not female riders. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

ATVs had the unique issue of not being able to use a rearward kicker, so Honda resorted to a recoil in the early years. A recoil starter on a motorcycle engine is very rare.

Besides, the early electric start motorcycles had a kickstarter for reasons. The electrics weren't all that great and batteries for anything besides something like a Harley were pretty small because there wasn't a whole lot of space on the smaller import bikes. Lots of things people take for granted anymore because the tech has improved to the point where starting system failure is near the bottom of the list of concerns for owners.

Like I've mentioned, early starting systems are not comparable to modern ones. They're heavier, less compact, lack engine automatic decompression, don't have any torque limiting device, charging systems weren't as powerful or reliable, and many motorcycles lacked space for a sufficiently sized battery (coupled with low powered charging systems). It wouldn't take much to run a battery down low enough the electric start wouldn't work, everything needed to stay in top condition, not the ride and park attitude with modern motorcycles, the owners had to be much more inclined to do regular maintenance and inspection if they wanted to get anywhere reliably. Not much different from automobiles of the time, if the owner didn't raise the hood every once in a while between oil changes, their chances of becoming stranded increased. I'm not talking about major mechanical failures, just that things didn't stay tight the way they do now and fluid leaks were more common. Cork gaskets were part of that.

I wasn't talking about cars, but on the subject, broken starters, stripped flywheel gears, broken transmission cases (where some starters bolted to) and engine blocks weren't uncommon back when engines still had carburetors and distributors. Starter shims were also commonly used when replacing the factory starter because aftermarket or rebuilt starters often didn't line up correctly, which caused binding or lack of proper engagement. I still have some starter shims and every time I see them I'm glad those days are gone. Much like the early electric start car days where there was a pedal in the floor to engage the starter, then later it was just a button in the floor.

Cadillac, though, had to say 'Hold my beer' when they designed the Northstar engine, putting the starter IN the engine, UNDERNEATH the intake manifold. It's a permanent magnet starter, but still...the labor bill. I first seen that, and didn't want to believe it, at a manufacturer show where Cadillac had a moving cutaway of the engine displayed. Some time after that, I think there was a car magazine where someone had put another engine and drivetrain in the rear of a Cadillac with that engine. Two engines and transmissions in a FWD Cadillac sedan, making it a heavy and complicated AWD car. It wasn't twice as fast with two engines (or fast at all) and it didn't handle well, but it was interesting and the builder/s were pretty sharp. They should have tested it on icy roads compared to the (then) current AWD cars, with the extra rear weight it may have really shined, especially in a straight line and up a incline.


Look, I'm not old as dirt and I often get the 'you weren't alive then' rebuttal from older people who seem to forget that writing, drawing, photographs, and even motion pictures existed before them. I don't want to seem like 'that' old person who knows everything and a is all I need to fix things, computers are evil and a 'back in my day' montage. I like it all for what it is, and often times, for what it's not, but it's in the understanding of it that brings everything into focus and appreciation. If I was to mention Buster Keaton, the majority of older people I know wouldn't recognize the name, like they don't know the film special effects pioneer Méliès, the running horse animated images by Eadweard Muybridge, if I mentioned the phrase 'To a rag and a bone and hank of hair' they wouldn't have a clue. Early German expressionist film Metropolis wouldn't ring a bell, nor would that most of the mainstream classical composers they have heard were German or Russian. They've probably heard Flight of the Bumblebee but don't know the tittle or composer, or even realize how long ago it was composed.

Please don't ask me about Taylor Swift or any of those currently popular names. They don't have staying power, they will be forgotten (in the sense of their current popularity), and it's all about the money now and that's fine, but it won't make someone immortal. As bad as it sounds, Hitler will be remembered long after Swift, but so will be Fred Rogers and Bob Ross. I've seen the Dalai Lama in person and LeVar Burton, which aren't on the same plane, but I've heard, in a small venue, what they each had to say. Same as Bill (William) Nye, but the questions he got asked by the audience were...ignorant. I didn't ask anything because I thought the general audience was much more intelligent than me. That was a total waste of time, they didn't ask anything original, and most of the questions were very juvenile, like
asking a race car driver if they drove fast on public roads (which I've also personally heard and shook my head at).

The point is that I'm older than my age. I've been told as much, but haven't been given the respect. You may be in the same boat.

[ps2fixer]

Ironically, I always connected and talked to people older than myself, so might be true that I'm "older than my age" lol.

Got to love those northstar engines, knew a guy that used to drive one. Ironically... the Toyota UZ engine series also did the same thing, big starter under the intake, center top of flywheel inside trans bell housing. Kind of a crazy design, but they were beefed up quite a lot to last a long time but I'm sure the job is terrible to do. Glad the engine design dropped that starter placement for a more normal one (ex: 5.7L Tundra).

Anyway, 200ES was mentioned in your post many times, then just Big Red was mentioned about the starter, so it seemed like you was still talking about the 200ES. I don't know why, but some Honda dealers list the 1982 ATC200 as a Big Red even though I'm pretty sure it never had any stickers that said that on it. Probably some conversion mistake from paper books to digital I guess lol.

I probably should mention I haven't really looked into the starting systems of newer atv's, I just pulled up a diagram for a 2020 and 2003 Rincon, both have a clutch and torque limiting for the starter, really weird to see that lol. Looks like the TRX250X in 2020 didn't have any clutch/torque limiting system though, so maybe it's only larger engines or something, or maybe it's about weight reduction since I suspect that machine is more of a sport model. Either case, looks like an extra complicated design, not sure if I'd really want that or not, but I tend to like things on the more simple side, aka beef everything up and just use normal gears lol. Either case, always learning new things nearly every day.

I jumped on the car side of things just to mention the starter design, do they do torque limiting/clutch systems on them too for newer vehicles? I also tend to stick with older vehicles so I haven't been around much for 2010+ stuff. I used to only drive 90's stuff but slowly touching into the 2000's since the 90's stuff is rusting out so bad and OBD2 is nice to have lol.

[thomaskwar]

1984 Honda 200ES. Been in the family since new.

When trying to start, it will barely try to crank. Sounds like a dead battry. With the compression release engaged, it will barely crank enough to trip the release, then nothing.

Voltage drops to 6.7 volts at the starter, solenoid and battery. New battery, load tested as good. With the wire removed from the starter, there is no voltage drop. I removed the wire from the starter and solenoid and checked it with an ohmmeter and no abnormal resistance. Cleaned the connections and hooked it back up. Removed the ground wire at both ends, cleaned connections and checked with ohmmeter. Removed wire from battery to solenoid and cleaned the connections and checked the wire with ohmmeter. I made a new wire for between the solenoid and battery anyway, but no difference. I tried using a jump pack, no difference. I hooked a second battery in parallel with the new battery, no difference. In bought a new starter, no difference.

With the starter removed, it will spin and there is no voltage drop. When the starter is installed again, voltage drop and barely tries to crank.

I tried jumping the solenoid. Same result.
I unhooked the wire to the starter and jumped directly from the battery. Same thing.

It will start with the pull starter.

What am I missing?

From what you’re describing, it really feels like either a grounding issue under load or something binding up when the starter is installed. Even though you cleaned the grounds, I’d try running a temporary ground wire straight from the battery to the engine or starter mount just to see if it makes a difference.

The voltage dropping to 6.7 volts is a huge clue, though—it’s like the starter is pulling way too much current or there’s still some hidden resistance somewhere. Since the starter spins fine out of the machine, I’d double-check that it’s not binding when it’s bolted in, like from a misalignment or something weird with the starter gear or flywheel. Also, maybe double-check that the compression release is fully functional, because if it’s not, the starter might be fighting against too much compression.

These issues are super frustrating, but it sounds like you’re close.

[ATC King]

Anyway, 200ES was mentioned in your post many times, then just Big Red was mentioned about the starter, so it seemed like you was still talking about the 200ES.

I know, but I leave stuff like that because it's all pretty easy to figure out so I don't feel like every single aspect needs said out loud. There's not exactly a whole lot of trike history to learn as far as the Japanese brands and Honda moved pretty slow with major changes until the 1980's. The relatively short production run of trikes makes things pretty simple, except that near the end there was constant advancement, especially with the sport trikes. The 250R got changes every year of it's production while the 200ES never changed from the first year of production.


See there. I done did it again.


My previous rambling post is more about staying hungry for knowledge and learning there's never an end to it. It's pretty shocking how much knowledge is at our fingertips now, yet people waste their time with things like social media, getting dumber and more helpless by the minute. There are actually people in this world who've never seen a globe and not any fault of their own, they've been denied that basic information. The withholding of education and knowledge is still a weapon used today and even blended in with our own modern lives, so we hopefully don't notice.

Eisenstein is regarded as some kind of untouchable intelligence, but even he couldn't keep a marriage together. Nobody has all the answers and everyone struggles somewhere, but struggling for the answers is worthwhile.


BTW, I never gave it much thought and just looked at the 200ES starter. That's a pretty big dude and probably about the size of a modern starter on a four cylinder car. My old battery is getting weak enough it's time to consider replacing. Walmart has the Noco lithium batteries and the price isn't any higher than online. I've seen those, Shorai, and Antigravity and the Noco is much less expensive but still looks and feels very well made, and is the same or lower price than the stock lead-acid battery, certainly less than a quality AGM. Pros and cons for each, but I think I'll go with the Noco.