Hunting dispute

[TimSr]

The 7.62x39 is a little on the light duty side for deer but will certainly do the job. Its biggest problem as a hunting round is that I dont think any US ammo MFG's make ammo for it, and most of the "idots" hunting with it are using millitary surplus ball (full metal jacket) ammo which is about the poorest choice of bullet you can find for hunting deer. If you happen to be a handloader, you can whip up some great hunting rounds with a wide selection of expanding bullets that hunters with a brain use, since its the same caliber as a 30-30, 30-06. .308, etc. Ballistically speaking, its almost identical to the 30-30 with bullet weights suitable for both guns, such as 150gr. 170gr flatnosed expanding bullets for a 30-30 are bought off the shelf at K-Mart, and 150gr bullets can easily be found with a little more effort. If you look for 7.62x39 its probably going to be a 122gr FMJ. If you shoot a deer with a 122gr FMJ, it will pass through him making a tiny hole, and he will be just as dead, but he will run a lot farther and not leave a blood trail before becoming so.
So, if you buy an SKS to hunt deer, and expect to buy ammo off the shelf for it, you are probably a moron. If you are a handloader, or are willing to spend the money having custom deer ammo made, or will special order premium hunting ammo with 150gr expanding bullets, you've pretty much got yourslef a 30-30 that looks a little different. Im not a huge fan of the 30-30 as a deer round, but its probably taken more deer than any other cartridge. I do handload, and my SKS is probably what TimJr will use when we do a boar hunt. Its fairly light and semi-auto action gives it a very mild recoil which is great for smaller younger shooters. The bayonet is not easily removed, so hopefully its presense wont do any violent mind control.
The reason Ruger recommends ammo meet American standards is that the foreign ammo is .311" caliber, and Ruger makes their rifle using the same standard .308" as any other 7.62mm round. The bullets can be more or less, used interchageably, but using surplus .311" ammo in a .308 bore can result in higher pressures, acceleratted bore wear and loss of accuracy.

[Jeb]

The 7.62x39 is a little on the light duty side for deer but will certainly do the job. Its biggest problem as a hunting round is that I dont think any US ammo MFG's make ammo for it, and most of the "idots" hunting with it are using millitary surplus ball (full metal jacket) ammo which is about the poorest choice of bullet you can find for hunting deer...

What about the Remington Ammo I wrote about? Perhaps I'm wrong, wouldnt be the first time! But I sure thought they made a 7.62x39 hunting cartridge. I've bought winchester before, but can't remember the type. i'm pretty sure it was FMJ. I only buy the cheap stuff anymore for plinkin. There are 154 grain soft point bullets but I don't know that I'd run them through a mini-30 being they are import.

It may not be the best choice for hunting but I think it's a bit extreme to refer to people who might use one as morons or idiots. Just my opinion.

[Wickedfinger]

It may not be the best choice for hunting but I think it's a bit extreme to refer to people who might use one as morons or idiots. Just my opinion.

Jeb, you go right ahead and use 7.62x39 if you want to hunt whitetail ........ I'll be on my .303. Like I said before, I have seen only two or three readily available shells for the Soviet caliber - Wolf is probably the most common importer and they make it in FMJ, a hollow tip jacketed and an all lead practice round. I have seen the Remington stuff for $13/20 but its not a Noslier tip by any means like the better 30/30 round. I have fired both the hollow point and the FMJ bullets through both my SKS and my AKM - the hollow points are terrible and love to misfeed and point stick like crazy. Theres no way anyone would get through a full 10rds let alone 30. Also - while the the 30/30's balistics and powder load are a bit higher compared to the 7.62x39's - the highest weight you can buy for the Soviet round is the std. 122/125gr. Most people I know who use a 30/30 fire the heavier 150/170gr rd. One thing they do have in common is that their ballistics fail rapidly after 100yrds - which is why the 30/30 is known as "Thee" brush gun and is VERY popular here in Pa - but - the 30/30's energy is always greater. The moron and idiot part actually refered to the murderer (although in my zest to type it all out, I wasn't clear at all), however, I see your point.

The 7.62x39 is a little on the light duty side for deer but will certainly do the job.

Yes and to Tims point - I can hunt whitetail with a .38 special, and kill one - but why?

I cant speak for what WI hunting regulations allow, but heres a few more facts about the gun. The SKS has a ten round FIXED magizine. (not a detachable magazine." You have to pull back the bolt, and reload one round at a time through the top of the gun. A full auto or select fire version of the SKS was never made. It is not, nor has it ever met anybodys legal or academic definiition of an "assault rifle."

There actually are umpteen million companies that make a detatchable clip for the SKS and its an easy job to take off the 10rd fixed - I currently have a 30rd mounted, but I also have a 20rd and a 5rd detatchable that I use at the range. Tim, if you are interested, try Tapco.com or Cheaperthandirt.com

[Dan Tenn]

It is illegal to use full metal jacket ammo just for the reason Tim Sr. described. No expansion of the bullet, and a wounded deer versus a dead deer.

[TimSr]

Most people I know who use a 30/30 fire the heavier 150/170gr rd. One thing they do have in common is that their ballistics fail rapidly after 100yrds - which is why the 30/30 is known as "Thee" brush gun and is VERY popular here in Pa - but - the 30/30's energy is always greater. Yes and to Tims point - I can hunt whitetail with a .38 special, and kill one - but why?

Actually I think you are missing my point. Right from the Hogdon reloading data - 150gr bullet from 30-30 around 2350fps. From a 7.62x39 around 2200 fps. You keep eluding to the 30-30 as though it carries much greater power than the 7.62x39, and fact is, it doesnt. - IF you choose the right ammo. For that matter, where handgun hunting is legal, the .44 magnum reolver has less energy than any of those 3 rifle calibers. I do agree that both are low powered and have very limited range, and both would work well in eastern woodlands where legal. You are absolutely correct in pointing out how poor FMJ ammo is for hunting. Dan Tenn said it was illegal in his state, but in most states, the actual ammo is left to the hunters discretion and I seem to find myslef preaching against ignorance on this wherever I go. I run into the same problem with the ignorant using hollow points in pistol ammo for hunting deer.

Remington Core Lokt is great hunting ammo, but I was not aware they made anything for 7.62x39. If they make something with a 150gr bullet, My guess is that it would be fine, but its probably more likely they are offering something in 130gr which is a varmint bullet. If I were deer hunting in Texas with a rifle, though, Id prefer something with a little more range. If cost is a factor, an old 7x57 or 8x57 Mauser rifle would be major step up.

If you decide you needed some good 7.62x39 deer ammo, Im sure I could whip up some stuff with premium bullets that would outperform factory 30-30 ammo.

[hondawilly]

they should get a rope and hangem

[84honda 200X]

The SKS has actually been banned. The Russians developed the gun before Vietnam and the Chinese adn other countrys copied it. Now the Russian SKS was banned from importation to the US and a few other countries that produce the SKS have also been banned from importation. This shooter probably had a Chinese varient. Which would be a civilian version of the weapon. The bayonet is actually quite easy to remove all you need it a small punch and a ball peen and pop the pin out of the bayonet base towards the muzzle. Also im offended by some of the reactions to useing this gun as a hunting rifle!! I use one at our deer camp for brushy areas and its the best gun ive ever used in the brush. Ive taken 3 deer down with it at almost 100 yards each with one shot and this is no lie that little bullit has the power to take down a deer easily.

[Wickedfinger]

You keep eluding to the 30-30 as though it carries much greater power than the 7.62x39, and fact is, it doesnt.

Actually - compare the maximum weight commercially available bullets between the 30/30 at 170gr and the 7.62x39 M1943 at 125gr and they perform as follows:
(1) 30/30 - bullet energy - muzzle - 1827ft/lbs, 100yds - 1355ft/lbs, 200yds - 989ft/lbs
(2) 7.62x39 - bullet energy - muzzle - 1445ft/lbs, 100yds - 1125ft/lbs, 200yds - 860ft/lbs
I would have to say, thats quite a bit of difference.

I will conceed that if you take the 125gr 30/30 and compare it directly with the 125gr 7.62x39 its numbers are almost the same through 200yds - but - and this is a BIG but, you wouldn't buy 125gr ammo for the 30/30 to take down whitetail. Another point that nobody seems to get here is the very big one regarding bullet design - 7.62x39 is simply put, not the type of round to hunt whitetail with - plain and simple. Another thing that hasn't been brought up here is the fact that the SKS isn't what I would call an accurate weapon by any means, especially if you were to compare it to even a well used 30/30 or .308. While I can pull reasonable groups at 25yrds on a std. ring target or crush 25 out of 25 clays lined up with my red dot sight, I cant hit anything at 100yrds if I switch to my 3x9 scope. Its a great, fun gun for plinking (I prefer it to my AKM) and I might consider taking it out on private land for Coyote or varmint. Hey, maybe I've just been subjected to too many years of state banned semi-auto loading rife hunting here in Pa., I dont know, but this is just the way I see it, thats all. I will also make a huge statement here that alot of people will take offense to - the 30.06 is not a good whitetail round either - its simply too powerful for the job - let the sparks fly ............

This shooter probably had a Chinese varient. Which would be a civilian version of the weapon.

My Type 56 Chinese (which is the proper name not SKS) is a Norinco/Chicom military model manufactured in 1983 - it is not the civilian model which did not come with the bayonet (according to Janes). In all my years of searching the local gun shows, I have never seen one of these "civilian" models. What you do see now is alot of the Yugo models with the built in grenade launchers. The only way an SKS or its variants are "illegal" is if you modify them to become so - i.e. if you decide to mount a new stock, like I have, you can not by law keep the bayonet on the rifle or else its illegal - well actually, with the expiring of the Clinton ban, it might not be anymore ..... hmmm

Now as an afterthought - I kind of feel bad that this discussion is taking place in a thread originally about how some murderer took 6 peoples lives

[84honda 200X]

The ways to tell the civilian model from a military one atleast on a chinese is the color of the bolt. If the bolt is shiny kinda white its a civilian model if its black and not glossy its a military model. The civilian model also came with a bayonet. Yours sounds like its a military one. Im jsut stating my the knowledge i have from a gun smith of ours.

[TimSr]

I just checked the Cheaper Than Dirt catalog and Wolf now makes a 154gr Soft Point, so there's your comercially available, 30-30 equivilant deer load. Ive got hunch that domestic ammo MFGs will fill this void, if they havent already, because these rifles are everywhere, and its inevitable that the demand for a deer load is there.

Mine is Chinese, but its got the blade type bayonet.

In reference to the original post, I had said I wondered how many others he killed that we dont know about. The latest news is that he is now a suspect in another unsolved shooting of a hunter a couple, years ago. If got this feeling his evil deeds dont stop there either.

[Wickedfinger]

I just checked the Cheaper Than Dirt catalog and Wolf now makes a 154gr Soft Point, so there's your comercially available, 30-30 equivilant deer load. Ive got hunch that domestic ammo MFGs will fill this void, if they havent already, because these rifles are everywhere, and its inevitable that the demand for a deer load is there.

Mine is Chinese, but its got the blade type bayonet.

In reference to the original post, I had said I wondered how many others he killed that we dont know about. The latest news is that he is now a suspect in another unsolved shooting of a hunter a couple, years ago. If got this feeling his evil deeds dont stop there either.

... Tim, thinking you confused it with the old but popular Nagant Russian rimmed cartrige, 7.62x54R - which is a 154gr bullet, I checked Cheaper Than Dirt and voila, you are right, Wolf does import a 154gr bullet, which is probably just the rimmed cartridges .308 comperable military bullet necked into the M1943 casing. Nobody else including Remington, Winchester or Federal seems to make it above a 125gr. SP. In any event I was in a Dick's today on lunch and 122gr was the only load they had - it was Wolf hollow point and the dude behind the counters (whos been there for as long as I can remember) exact words were (after he found it his duty to "learn me" that I can not hunt anything in Pa. with an SKS) "what the hell would you want to hunt white tail with that round for?". I replied back "precisely". I was talking to a couple of fellow hunters this morning about this thread and they had a more realistic answer for me - "Sure you can hunt white tail with that round ...... but why?", which is what I said from the beginning. I do have to say again though, given your choice between just these two, would you rather use a 30/30 or an SKS to hunt deer?.

I found this on the web - this was copied from Hunter Mag.

As a sporting cartridge the 7.62x39 has limited usefulness. It will reliably kill varmints, predators, and medium game animals weighing up to about 100 pounds (like pronghorn antelope and Coues' deer) at short range, but these animals are seldom encountered at short range. In a decent carbine like the Ruger Ranch Rifle, it will serve for hunting small deer at woods ranges. It would probably be an excellent Javelina cartridge. The Federal Ammunition Catalog calls it a medium game cartridge.

The 7.62x39's standard 123-125 grain bullet (SD .184) is too light and lacks sufficient penetration to make the 7.62x39 a reliable cartridge for the larger species of deer (like Columbian blacktail, the larger subspecies of whitetail, and mule deer). Certainly it will kill large deer at close range with well placed shots, but so will many cartridges deemed unsuitable for general deer hunting purposes. Rifles for the 7.62x39 are typically more expensive, less accurate, and less effective at all ranges than rifles for the classic .30-30 Winchester cartridge. For the person seeking very light recoil in a deer cartridge the 6mm PPC, .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, 250 Savage, and .257 Roberts will also outperform the 7.62x39 at all ranges. In conclusion, there is little justification for selecting a 7.62x39 carbine for deer hunting.

[TimSr]

For myself, it wouldnt make a dimes worth of difference, keeping in mind, I handload everything I shoot anyways, and I enjoy getting beaten with heavy recoil. I dont consider the 30-30 to have heavy recoil but a younger kid or a woman might have a different perspective, and a beginner that is prone to flinching would probably shoot better with the SKS. The other pluses to the SKS besides less recoil, is lower cost and cheaper to shoot if you by cases of ammo. The only downside it has over the 30-30 is deer ammo availability which isnt a problem for guys who make their own. Youve also got more bullet selections for SKS, and youre not stuck with flat nose bullets.

Im not a big fan of high velocity small caliber rifles for deer hunting in eastern woodlands. Where shots are typically well under 100yrds, nothing is more effective than a 12 guage slug. If I were to use a rifle, Id go to a slower moving big bore like a .45-70 or .444 Marlin. 30-30 or SKS would be about my last choice. If I were again hunting out west, with longer distances Id bypass the 30-30 and the SKS without hesitation and use my 7MM Rem. Mag, or .06 or .308. For a kid, though, Id rather they used an SKS they can shoot well, than a better gun that they are afraid of.

In the real world, though I live in Ohio, where deer can only be hunted with shotgun or handgun. When I lived in Pa. I hunted deer with a Freedom Arms .454 Casull, except in Montgomery Co. where I had to use 12 guage slugs. I took the same pistol to Alaska to get my black bear. Do to poorly written laws, I had to use my Ruger .44 Magum in Ohio until a few years ago, when they changed the laws so that my .454 Casull is now legal here. Kind of like ATV riding, the skill of the hunter means more to me than what he spends on his equipment. I use a scoped .22 for squirrels, or whatever rifle I havent shot in a while for groundhogs, but thats about the only rifle hunting I do. The last deer i shot with a rifle was in Ca. in 1986 with a 7.7 Jap Arisaka converted to 30.06.

I agree with the magazine article almost completely, but once again, their opinions are based on the 125gr bullet, which I totally agree, is useless on deer. I do not agree that the 30-30 is less expensive and more accurate. And their claim that the 30-30 is more effective, is once yet again based on a 125gr bullet comparison. Every claim they make would be just as true if you compared a 30-30 deer round with 125gr 30-30 round.

[Wickedfinger]

Where did you live in Mont. co.?. The gun law is the same here in Bucks - no rifle.

[Dan Tenn]

You said that you are against using hollow points in pistols for deer. I am not experienced with pistols, and would appreciate a little further reasoning for this. I would have bought hollow points if I were to use a pistol. Im confused, help.

[Jeb]

Jeb, you go right ahead and use 7.62x39 if you want to hunt whitetail ........ I'll be on my .303. Like I said before, I have seen only two or three readily available shells for the Soviet caliber - Wolf is probably the most common importer and they make it in FMJ, a hollow tip jacketed and an all lead practice round. I have seen the Remington stuff for $13/20 but its not a Noslier tip by any means like the better 30/30 round. I have fired both the hollow point and the FMJ bullets through both my SKS and my AKM - the hollow points are terrible and love to misfeed and point stick like crazy. Theres no way anyone would get through a full 10rds let alone 30. Also - while the the 30/30's balistics and powder load are a bit higher compared to the 7.62x39's - the highest weight you can buy for the Soviet round is the std. 122/125gr. Most people I know who use a 30/30 fire the heavier 150/170gr rd. One thing they do have in common is that their ballistics fail rapidly after 100yrds - which is why the 30/30 is known as "Thee" brush gun and is VERY popular here in Pa - but - the 30/30's energy is always greater. The moron and idiot part actually refered to the murderer (although in my zest to type it all out, I wasn't clear at all), however, I see your point.

Wicked, check this out. I hope i didn't miss anything in your response. This is where I buy my 7.62x39 ammo. Towards the bottom of the list is two listings for Wolf ammo with a 154 grain soft point bullet:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/d...X733A8E4NGBRJ4

The store is just up the road from work and I run over at lunch sometimes. I believe they sell the 154 grain soft point ammo by single box off the shelf. I'll check for sure next time. Not that it makes any difference. I only ever target shoot and buy the cheaper Wolf FMJ.

And I agree with you, my choice personally would not be 7.62x39 even though I have one, even using that 154 grain ammo. In brush I too would much rather use a .30-30 and on open ground I like a .30-06. I've used both those in the past and I like them. My brother takes a deer or two every year with his .270 win. Though he could probably harvest more at night with his AR and night vision scope!

The guy in question is a moron. and a murderer and would more than likely swing here in TX.