Atc 4 Me

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

Billy,

Like you, I feel that the 3 wheelers would have evolved to a certain extent. How far, we can only guess. I also agree that the quads were never really developed at all after introduction. They stayed almost the same throughout their lifecycle. You can clearly see the difference in technological improvemnt on the 3 wheelers simply by comparing them from 1981-1986.
Huge difference! There was more development within these short years than any of the quads. There seemed to be some resurgence in factory involvement up until last year, with a few riders actually receiving quads, parts and even some financial support. Even with the recent support, it didn't come close to what we became used to making/winning at the races back in the eighties! It appears that ATV racing is once again "on it's own", and to be honest, I just don't think 4 wheel racing was ever as exciting as 3 wheels! I feel that spectators found more excitement watching 3 wheelers as well.

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

Tundrawillie,

I feel/felt as you do. There was a time when the riders were treated very similar with regards to support from Honda, but even during the early days of the ATC team, the riders developed and obtained sponsorship deals wth performance shops and whomever else might be willing to use ATC's for advertising such as apparel, goggle, boot, fuel, chain, helmet sponsors etc.

In 1985 we were FORCED to drop all of our sponsors. I knew that things were going to get ugly. Honda tried to force this same policy onto the MX racers as well, but it didn't fly over there. The "Hondaline" brand simply couldn't afford to offer the entire Honda MX team anywhere near the amount of endorsement money they had become accustomed to receive from outside sponsors. Plus, if the MX riders felt too pressured, they could always jump ship like Jeremy Mcrath and Ricky Carmichael did. After careful thought, Honda didn't push too hard in an effort to keep their riders.

Sadly for us on the ATC team, there were no other 3 wheel manufacturers to turn to looking for a ride. There was only Honda and Kawasaki, and Kawasaki was happy going to the races with Jimmy White solely as their primary rider and providing "support" for many others. So, you can see the dilemna we faced. It was Honda and Hondaline all the way or nothing.

At this time is also when Paul Turner somehow got his foot in the door at Team Honda ATC. In part, this may have been an effort to provide a team more in tune to your early thoughts of all the team ATC trikes being prepared exactly the same. I would have been fine with that. Sadly, Paul Turner and Steve Carter became interested in working with Marty only, and I was left out of all performance development.

I feel this is likely due to the fact that I felt Steve Carter didn't know as much about tuning as he would like people to believe. He was Danny "Magoo" Chandlers mechanic over at the MX team. When Danny got hurt, Steve wasn't needed. He found work with the ATC team initially to work on both Marty's AND my 3 wheelers.

After a number of what I consider "MAJOR" differences when it came to tuning and jetting, I basically told Steve, "Dude, you don't know !" Steve could take a decently running trike (mine) and tune it to the point where it would begin fouling the plug! I would end up redoing all of his work and resumed tuning my trikes by myself. Steve was no dummy, he was simply what I considered a "Factory Parts Changer"

If something broke or needed changed, Steve had no problem witht that. If the engine needed to be gone through, Steve could handle that task as well. But when it came to porting, jetting, and knowledge of how to make a 2 stroke make more power, he was lost, at least at first. By the end of the 1986 season, after working side by side with Paul Turner for a couple of years, I believe he likely learned quite a bit.

Fortunately, Steve had a problem at one of the Mickey Thompsons races when he forgot to bolt something down on Marty's trike and the gas tank came off out on the track. Steve was so embarrased that he informed Wes McCoy at that very moment that he could only provide service to one rider only, and that he only wanted to wrench for Marty.

I said "fortunately" because when all was said and done, Chuck Miller was brought on board to be my mechanic. I thought things were looking up! Sadly, we soon learned how the testing was going to go down. Paul, Steve and Marty were to be the development team, and Chuck and I would inherit their "left-overs".

I can't tell you how slow some of the top-ends we HAD to use were! Paul Turner knew what he was doing. He could make fast stuff (the aftermarket Paul Turner components can tell you that) and did for Marty. Why I never received the same components is likely a direct result of Steve Carters and my earlier conflicts.

IMHO, Steve Carter was determined to teach me a lesson that you "Don't mess with the big dog" and he did everthing he could to make certain that all Chuck and I ever got was going to less than stellar power components and that Marty would have the best that Paul Turner could produce at the moment, which he did.

Anyways, Honda did try to emulate your thought of all of the trikes and riders being on equal ground. It may have "looked" like everything was equal from a spectator perspective, but in reality it was far from it.

I wish to comment that again, I didn't have anything against Marty, then or now. Marty was in the "cat birds seat" and I was fully aware of it. I tried unsuccesfully to persuade Wes McCoy to "please" let me use DG components. I even offered to have "Paul Turner" pre-ground into the side of the cylinders so everyone would think I was using Turner parts. No such luck. Wes also would never listen when I complained about Chuck and I receiving components (cylinders and pipes) that were down on power compared to what Marty was getting. At the faster race tracks where HP is needed (Riverside)this was clearly evident.

Looking back, I feel this was planned from the biggining of the 1985 season. Marty Hart was going to be the ATV 250 class National Champ, at any cost unless he got hurt. In this case I would win the championship for Honda. Either way Honda wins. My role was to be as "clean-up", to be on the podium for a Honda "sweep" to aid in advertising.

What Honda mangement didn't consider was that Mike Coe is somehow winning some races and Marty is struggling at times. What are they going to do?? Well, Honda changed the points structure. This stuff could never happen today, at least I hope not.

I now believe Wes knew that I was to get lesser components at the time. I was just too naive (and too young to know better) to think that Wes would want to support one of the ATC team members more than another. I mean, this was a TEAM right? I had learned a hard lesson. Before Marty, Wes McCoy was Dean Sundahls biggest fan. I knew this was the case early on, and let's face it, in 1981 Dean was the MAN. But I also felt that after I began winning some races and championships, that things would equal out and that Wes would begin to support me in an equal manner. It never worked out that way.

I have additional stuff to share about the "politics" concerning the Honda ATC race team. It was mostly good times, and overall, the good times clearly outweighed the bad, but there were still some things that were very hard to swallow.

.

[Patton ****]

Mike- I have to say, this is the best thread on any atv/atc site I have ever read !!! I was wondering if you could elaborate a little on your Yamaha deal, how many bikes you got, the level of support, how you liked the Banzee and Blaster, etc. I just started getting into racing the nationals around that time period and hooked up with a guy in PA who bought Don Turks Banzee's (The 88 white and blue one that Klemm did the motor work on, and the later Red and Black ones that Turner and Duncan did the work on). All I can say is they were wicked fast and after about 5-10 minutes of mx, you could not feel your arms and about half you fillings fell out (I was also 15 at the time, so maybe that had something to do with it). Any good stories about Don Turk and do you see him around at all now? Thanks again- and keep up the great posts. I saw you at the legends race in OH back in 2000, it seemed like to just got off the plane, but you still had great form and speed (even on 4 wheels).

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

Patton,

Thanks for the kind compliments. I was approached by Yamaha in late Sept. 1986. I had been racing my RM250 powered Suzuki with Brigg's built suspension to numerous wins and won a local Championship that was held at Carlsbad raceway, along with a number of CRC events sponsored by Suzuki back then.

Yamaha wanted to release their new Banshee to the public in 1987 with a significant major victory. They got ahold of Dean Sundahl and myself, along with Brett Driscoll, Ray Schooley and some others who's names escape me at the moment. These guy's were very talented SoCal riders. Yamaha wanted to debut and race the 1986 Baja 1000 in November. There was a shortage of Banshee's at that time. Dean had a pre-production version that he used for testing and evaluating. I didn't get one for some time later. We were quite impressed with the Quad, but also learned quickly that quite a bit of work needed to be done to get them Baja ready in such a short time.

Yamaha was up to the task! They hired Stuart Toomey to develop the engine for improved power. They already had Ohlins suspension working for the MX team and hired them to develop some outstanding shocks front and rear. The effort was nothing less than spectacular! There is much to say about that 1000 effort by Yamaha. It was stellar and Yamaha's finished 1-2. Even though Dean and I both crashed hard during the event, our co-riders picked-up the slack and carriedon for the 1-2 finish for Yamaha.

I informed Yamaha before I inked a deal forthe 1000, that I wasn't interested in a one race deal. I approached them with a realistic race plan to participate and compete in the AMA ATV nationals and Mickey Thompson short course stadium events. While the deal wasn't quite as lucrative as my past Honda deal, it was about the only thing going at the time. I got quads and just about anything I needed to race at these events. Somehow Mickey Thompson got some kind of advertising money from Yamaha to promote them at his races. Therewas some kind of mix-up because when all was said and done, the quad class was to e a 250cc only class. I believe initially, there was goingto be a 250 and open class at Mickeys.

A short time after the 1987 season started, Yamaha sent all of the ATV racing effort over to a start-up race and suspension shop named "Noleen Racing" It was owned and operated by a former Yamaha guy, Clark Jones. Clark was brother-in-law to former multi Nartional MX Champ Gary Jones. He became my team manager.

Since the open class quad class was thrown out, Clark knew we needed to build a 250cc Banshee. There was some thought and testing on a 250cc twin. While this was fairly easy to do, the quad was nearly unridable due to it's ultra hi and narrow RPM powerband. I rode this quad. While it had big HP, it also had 0 low RPM torque. It had a YZ60 powerband. Omce it came on the pipes, you couldn't hold on to it, and then once you got it corrected it was bogging again. No good.

I offered my brothers expertise to build a Banshee with a 250cc MX engine. Clark agreed and gave me anything I needed to complete the task. we quickly learned that Mickey's rules also stated that the engine must be ATV based. That was OK because we ended up using Tri-Z engines which were nealy identical to the YZ power plants ofthat era. While my brother built an awesome machine, none of my sponsors were too hip to help develop this one-off machine.

Understandably, there would be 0 aftermarket sales for a 250cc single powered Banshee! So, the initial power was down a bit and results were not that good. I always had top 10 finishes, but knew I could do better with more power. I spent too much time going back and forth between trying to remain competitive in the open National class with a true 350cc Banshee, (I had some wins at the nationals racing against Suzuki 500 "Quadzilla's and other Banshees) and building and trying to make a competitive Thompson racer. Enter Don Turk.

Don was racing a Suzuki with some success. I am not sure of all the particulars, but he was soon racing Yamaha's. Clark had my brother fabricate another 250 Banshee for Don and we were racing at Mickeys. At the Nnationals, Don would race in the 250 class and I would race in the open class. We drove together to a couple of races on the circuit in my Dodge van hauling both of our machines.

Later in the season Don traveled with other privateers and I traveled again with my brother Sam as my mechanic. I dont recall if Don had another chassis built by Duncan, or if he continued to use the one my brother built. I believe he may have totaled his original quad in a crash. I know that my 250 YZ powered Banshee buzzed only a small amount. No worse than a Kawasaki or Tri-Z, so I can only presume he had another quad built by somebody else if it indeed vibrated as badly as you remember, or maybe it had some cracks in the frame or motor mounts when you rode it. I never felt my 250c racer was as fast as it needed to be to be truly competitve. My 350cc Banshee National Banshee was another story! That was one of, if not the fastest 350's of that era. I was VERY competitve and won a number of races on that machine prepared by my brother Sam using DG Performance equipment.

I haven't seen Don Turk since the 1988 season, which was my last as a Professional. At that time I believe I was the only fully sponsored ATV racer in America.

When I raced that Honda back in Ohio in 2000, that was the first time I ever rode a Honda Fourtrax. I hadn't even ridden an ATV of any sort since 1993! I hope this sheds some light on your questions. If you have others, ask away.

[falloutboy]

First off, it's great to have someone like you on the board!

Also, I found a set of videos on youtube of the San Jose 1985, 250cc class 3-wheeler race. Maybe they were brought up already, I just don't have the patience to read all 29 pages.

I heard your name a few times, maybe you could point out which one you were, perhaps a play by play or something ....
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5hpqAcm6es
part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKPPX9lJIOQ&NR=1
part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDx4fE7yvNk&NR=1

[ScAwN7]

Glad to see you're still around Mike. I won't comment on your story other than to say, it doesn't change the fact that I always looked up to every rider at Team Honda. You, Marty Hart, Steve Wright, Curtis Sparks, and Rodney Gentry were my idols. I also share your love for the 1986 ATC250R. Here are a couple of pictures of me racing when I was 15 years old. A short list of mods were the Honda short track tank, engine bored .40 over, Hoosier quad front tire, Burris go-kart tires on the rear, and the highest gearing we could get. I want to say it was 19/30, but whatever it was, the chain notched the case of the engine and it rode on the rear sprocket carrier until it finally wore a grove. This was our local 1/8 mile oval in Ada, OH.

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

Falloutboy,
I have watched those a few times and can't quite make out much except that Marty Hart finally got by Eddie Sanders for the lead and basically was unchallenged for the rest of the race. I see myself and Jimmy White at times. It also appears as though Jimmy breaks and I may have ended up in third place. Other than that, I can't really elaborate much other than I was VERY lucky to have finished that well with all that happened that weekend!

I give Doug Richards (Race promotor) credit for having long races. Even though the flat track races were easier physically, you still had to be in good shape to go 20 or 25 laps in one of these fast races. While San Jose was a decent track, there were in my opinion still too many hairpin style turns that make for more of a single file racing line that made passing more difficult. I liked simple ovals and Grand National TT Motorcycle type race tracks better. I ALWAYS wanted to race at the Peoria TT race track on my 3 wheeler! I really admired the BIG jump there.

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

Scawn7,

I like your duds. Looks just like the Team Honda stuff! Did you really like those little tires? Nice photos. I bet they bring back fond memories. Honda did try to employ the best talent at any given time.

[ScAwN7]

There was a guy from Columbus, OH named Mark Goodflesch (spelling?) who came to our local track on a 1985 Tecate with the go-kart tires and he proceeded to smoke everyone. So of course, that was the new thing to try. I personally felt it was the CR250 piston he was running in his Kawi motor, but whatever, LOL. Almost every 250cc 3 wheeler was running go-kart tires by the end of that season due to the lower cost and increased stability. Even a few 250cc quads switched over but they were sandwiching the rear hubs with a tire on each side for a total of 4 go-kart tires in the rear. I remember when 3&4 Wheel Action covered the big race in Ashtabula, OH they had pics of a guy using them on a quad, so I guess the idea spread.

Yea, the pics definitely bring back memories. I've actually started looking for an 86-87 TRX250R to purchase, just to ride for fun. I would prefer another 86 ATC250R, but unless I could find one with a short track tank, it just wouldn't be the same.

[quebecbroil]

hi Mr Coe
its great to read from someone who was there when 3wheeler was present as i was born in 82. i wonder if you ever saw or heard if suzuki had a racing trike or prototype back then.

[Eric250R]

Mike, I"m sure I"m not going to add anything to this thread that hasn't already been said, and I'm going to more or less share the same feeling that I did in Driscoll's thread. I grew up idolizing you guys. And have recently became friends with alot of my idols on facebook ( Sundahl, Donnie Banks, Jimmy White, Chris Berry, and Jackie Meadows ) gotta love the internet. I just read your entire thread again and it amazes me the behind the scenes stuff that went on. Love hearing these stories. Jimmy White often talks about the things Honda did back in the day to put things a little more in there favor, and you can tell it's left a bad taste in his mouth even all these years later. He also went on to talk about the way Honda was treating their quad teams up until recently, and the very little effort they put forth into them......how things change....or don't. I also agree with you that the 4 wheelers never and will never have the feeling of 3 wheeler racing back in the golden age. It's awesome we all have some place to come together and meet our heros from back then..... pleasure to chat with you. Once again, congrats on the grandchild.

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

Quebecbroil,
My first wife's father owned and operated a Suzuki motorcycle deaership back in the late seventies and early eighties. I was able to attend one of the dealer meetings they had back then that provided some early data. It apperaed that Suzuki was very close and possibly in the process of entering a performance 3 wheeler to market. Things changed quickly however and Suzuki may have dodged a huge bullet by NOT bringing a performance 3 Wheeler to the public, but instead released the Quadrunner 4 wheelers instead. Anyways, I do believe there WERE some prototype 3 wheelers from Suzuki, but nothing more.

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

Eric250R,

Even though all that stuff happed a long time ago, it doesn't seem like that many years have gone by. All of my racing endeavors are still very fresh in my mind. I still remember most ALL of my races, from as way back as my BMX days. There was certainly a lot of politics involved during the 1985 season, at least over at the Honda ATC team! So, Sundahl's on Facebook? How's he doing? I haven't seen or talked with him in many years. The last time was when I saw him in the desert with his very young daughter. She must be close to 20 years old by now.

[quebecbroil]

thanks for the reply
im very curious how this prototype (if it ever existed) looked like, maybe ill try to ask suzuki if we can have pics of this, i read also something Dean Kirsten posted on this site, he said that someday he was at the dune for riding he saw a van or closed trailer and it was suzuki crew testing a trike and when they reconized the 3wheeler magazine crew they packed the trike quickly and leaved immidiatly, so i do beleive they was close to come up with something

[GREGMCKEE]

Hey Mike....
Great to read all the responses on here...cant believe its a 5 year old thread!!
Loved reading about all the Team Honda stories, seeing all the pix (particularly the 1984 ATC250R watercooled works bike with the low rad shrouds and the wild tread patterned Ohtsu flat track tires..if anyone has more pix of those bikes please post them!!) Reading this thread it seems to me like the year 1985 was really a turning point in Honda's racing history, both in ATV's and MX as well. 1985 was the end of the real trick works stuff (ATC200R, and the MX RC series) It was the end of individuality of the racer as far as your aftermarket connections with DG and apparel companies (the whole Hondaline thing) and the last real stand for Team Honda ATC as the championship powerhouse and magnet for racing talent. and then the two words that made me queasy "Suzuki Quadracer"...I can still remember thinking that machine would change everything. Mike, did you see the changes coming ahead of time? And one thing I always wondered from my side of the pages of the ATV magazines I read...how much did a factory ATV racer make? I apologize if this has been touched on already...Thanks for all the replies Mike, its really cool to be able to read about and talk to one of the guys I really looked up to in my teen years!

Greg