It's going to be a bumpy ride America

[fabiodriven]

I'm somewhat nervous if there will be repercussions someday if I start this thread, but on the other hand I really don't care. These are things I want to say and we do have "freedom of speech" here, do we not?

What I am about to say are things that I believe to be true. If you like what I say, that's great. If not, it's just my opinion. Don't listen to me if you do not want to. I am not partial to any political party and know nothing of politics. I do like Ron Paul and what he stands for, but I haven't studied him thoroughly. I don't care for politics enough to concern myself.

America, our country is not what it appears to be. We are not the land of the free, nor are we the home of the brave. Our country is in fact a business, and we are the consumers. It is a known fact that war=money. The best way to fix a bad economy has traditionally been through creating a war and deploying the troops, usually to some place that has an "evil" leader with a hair across his ass. He's somebody who hates America and all that we stand for. He wants to destroy our country and democracy, and he of course can not stand our freedom. He wants to destroy it.

That would make you mad, right? A guy who runs another country who wants to destroy our way of living? Of course it would make you mad. That's what "facts" like this are designed to do. You and I get mad at this leader and his country, and then we want to do something about it. We want to defend our right to freedom and our way of life, don't we? Of course we do! Who is this evil person to judge who we are and what we stand for? Well let's go show him then!!!

And it begins just that easy. Our country doesn't simply start a war with another country for no reason. The public would never stand for such a thing. So how do you remedy that situation? Very simple- You manufacture a cause. A cause that almost the entire nation can latch on to. This has been done time and time again to the people of this country and a huge percentage know no better.

Pearl Harbor, December 7 1941. The Japanese attack the American Navy while still tied up to the docks in their own port. How could such a massive attack possibly be overlooked? Some say it wasn't. Some say that the American government knew the Japanese were coming, but did nothing about it. World War 2 obviously ensued.

In August of 1964 the USS Maddox, a U.S. Navy destroyer, was conducting signals intelligence patrols in the Gulf of Tonkin off the coast of Vietnam when it was supposedly attacked by three North Vietnamese torpedo boats. The result of this attack was the Vietnam war. The American public was told that the Vietnamese fired the first shots. Recently unclassified documents show otherwise however. It turns out that the American boat was the first one to fire. THIS IS NOT HEARSAY, THIS IS FACT- AMERICA MANUFACTURED A REASON TO START THE VIETNAM WAR.

That's right, our country started the Vietnam conflict. A conflict in which thousands of people died, and countless more were affected by. Think of the atrocities that everyone knows about when you mention the Vietnam conflict. Now think of why they happened. Those things happened to all of those people, millions of people's lives affected, because somebody in America wanted them to. I'm not going to get into too much detail as far as reasons go, if you're interested look into it yourself.

September 11, 2001. A day that will live in infamy. There is no need for me to explain what incidents occurred that day. That day was the spark that set off the war in the Middle East. It gave Americans a hatred towards Middle Eastern people and the Muslim way. It gave those in charge permission to wage war against "evil". Well, what is evil? People or nations who have wronged you and your way of living, let's just say. Those filthy Middle Easterners just hate us so much, they just want to come over here and destroy our way of living, right?

There is far too much for me to discuss what actually happened on 9/11. I could write all day and not cover everything, but I will touch on some of the important facts.

The buildings that fell on 9/11 were destroyed through controlled demolition. This is fact. Explosions were heard that day and that was discussed extensively for about the first week or so after 9/11. For some reason though, it's not been discussed thoroughly for quite some time now and it has almost been forgotten about, just like they want. Just forget about those explosions, they didn't happen. Even though there is video evidence, eye witness accounts from people who were on the scene, and irrefutable scientific evidence of thermite within the rubble of the fallen tower. Thermite, ladies and gentlemen. If you don't know what thermite is, have a peek- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite It is used to penetrate armor or cut through metal. The towers that fell that day were constructed of steel beams. Steel beams that COULD NOT have been damaged enough by a commercial airliner and the fuel it carried aboard. The fuel that was carried aboard those planes WAS NOT enough fuel to cause the demise of those towers. This is fact.

Ground zero was arguably the biggest crime scene of all time, but was it treated like one? The answer is, no, it was not. A crime scene is preserved and carefully scrutinized. It is isolated from everyone outside of the team doing the investigation. Is this what happened at ground zero? No, it is not. The rubble was picked up as quick as it could be and transported out of the country. Far from coincidence.

Building 7 was located just next to the Twin Towers. It was not hit by an airplane. The damage it sustained was minimal. Yet it collapsed that day. How, do you ask? Building 7 was hit by "flying debris", which set it on fire and caused the collapse. Simple answer, right? It caught on fire and burned until the point it couldn't stand anymore. Well let me ask you this... When was the last time you burned steel and concrete? Steel and concrete do not burn, obviously. This country has had many sky scraper fires in the past and do you know how many have collapsed from fire? Building 7 is the 3rd steel/concrete building in America to have collapsed due to fire, with the first two being the Twin Towers.

There was a man in building 7 that day while there were detonations going off in that building. That man was interviewed in 2007 and told his entire story about how the charges were going off while he was trapped in that building. Not long after that man told his story on camera for all to see, he died of mysterious causes. He was in otherwise good health until that point. His family hired a private investigator to look into the causes of his death. The P.I. did some digging and advised the family that they might want to contact the authorities. He also refunded the family their money and resigned from the investigation. That man's interview can be seen here- http://www.loosechange911.com/ I watched this movie instantly on Netflix.

How about the plane that hit the Pentagon? Does anyone find it odd that there was NO WRECKAGE of a commercial airliner at the Pentagon? Does it bother anyone that the hole made in the Pentagon was about half the width of a commercial airliner? There is no physical way a commercial airliner could have made the hole in the Pentagon that we all saw. We've all seen crash sites of commercial airliners on the news, we all know what it looks like. But there was no wreckage of a commercial airliner at the Pentagon... Why is there no video of this crash? You mean to tell me that the Pentagon, the very nerve center of our country, which is literally covered inside and out with cameras running 24/7, and all they have is one shoddy video of the explosion. It doesn't even show an airplane.

How about flight 93 that crashed in Shanksville Pa. Can someone please explain to me how we have yet another commercial airline crash in the middle of a field and again, NO WRECKAGE. Like I said, we've all seen footage of commercial airline crashes. Look at the footage of the flight 93 crash site. I implore you to explain to me how that "crash site" was caused by a commercial airliner. There is not a trace of any commercial airplane in that fake crash site.

To think that our country was taken over that day in September by a couple of guys with box cutters who live in caves is absolutely ludicrous. This nation is getting dumber and dumber by the day and that's the way they want us. They want the flock to follow the shepherd blindly while they tell you that everything is OK. Well it's not OK. Ask yourself this- If flight 93 and the plane that hit the Pentagon actually didn't crash that day, where are they? Where are the people that were aboard?

It's not a question in my mind whether or not the acts on 9/11 were committed by terrorists. They absolutely were. The question is, who are these terrorists? They certainly aren't living in a cave in Pakistan. They are here, running our country, and doing whatever it takes to keep gaining power. They own the media and feed you what you need to hear to go along with their plan. They have no regard for human life. They kill thousands of people and effect millions of other lives in the process. I could have been killed by 9/11. I fought in the ensuing war and could have been killed because of what these people have done. I saw the enemy face to face, and I ensure you people that the "evil doers" in Iraq had no weapons that could reach us. They had tanks from WWII and barely put up a fight. And people wonder how they can fight the kind of cowardly warfare they do now. It's very similar to the kind of warfare the American people used against the British in the Revolutionary war. Back then, the British fought as "gentlemen", wearing their nice, pretty uniforms and lining up on the field of battle the traditional way to face their enemies. Meanwhile, the Americans were hiding in the bushes and taking pop-shots as the British marched by. And it worked. It got us our freedom. Freedom against an invincible invading force that had no right to be here telling us what to do.

We are in Iraq in the name of democracy, right? Of course! We feel they need democracy so badly over there that we will die giving it to them.

Wrong. There is trillions of dollars worth of oil there. That is your answer.

People need to open their eyes. Our country is now dis-arming us. They are taking our rights away day by day. Our right to own guns, our right to travel freely, our freedom of speech. Everybody needs to wake up and realize what is going on. We can no longer walk into an airplane with anything they don't want us to. They can look at anything we're taking with us or back. Because of terrorists, yes. BUT THEY ARE THE TERRORISTS! They caused this and this is what they wanted. They take our rights in the name of safety, safety from a threat that they caused. They have given themselves the right to pull us over, to question us, to search us when they deem it necessary.

They drug us to stupidity so nobody questions anything. Everybody is on prescriptions everywhere. The more you take, the more numb you are, the less you question. They fill our bodies with chemicals to the point we have to take them, and they get paid to do it. The more people take them, the more money they make, and they make a lot, and people question less. A high citizen is a happy citizen and they don't ask questions.

I could go on all day about these atrocities committed against our people and people all over the world. I'm sure a lot of you dismiss these things and think I'm just some kook, but don't listen to me. Educate yourself, open your eyes, look at the big picture, and think for yourselves. Don't let the media tell you what's going on in the world because the media has been bought and sold and they will tell you whatever it is they need you to know at that time.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion just as I'm entitled to mine. If you want to speak against me, by all means, go for it. Just do me one favor and educate yourself first. Prove me wrong, I want somebody to do it. Because I don't want to be part of this mess. It's almost embarrassing to call myself an American at this point. This country is no longer what it was founded on. It's a bigger mess than most of you realize.

I implore any and all of you to watch these documentaries, to read a book, to look at the FACTS involved in these cases. They are not theories, but FACTS. Facts that have been ignored, or swept under the rug. Facts that we're supposed to simply forget about. I won't forget. I know what happened that day was not right, and I'll never let it go.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82669955/#idLvFXlu73zPVLbp.01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEuJimaumW4

http://www.loosechange911.com/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2361717427531377078

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMM_T_PJ0Rs

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/16/books/area-51-by-annie-jacobsen-review.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82700859/

OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE!!!

[atc007]

Well,John,my friend.. I happen to disagree with you,,I Believe a plastic gas tank prepared properly,,WILL hold paint.. EVERY word you typed above? Oh,,yeah,,That's ALL true,, and documented. Doesn't EVERYONE know that? I've posted a few of those movies before. .. SO,,lets take this a simple step further. Where DID the folks on those planes GO? I'm just asking. Great post man,,well said,,and for someone who went over there and FOUGHT for these devils... Well, that takes a lot to face the truth. Thanx again ...Very well said.

[yaegerb]

I tend to agree with most of your comments.

Here's a question...what are you, me or anyone in this country going to do about it?

I don't see people lining up with pitch forks (since we are about ready to be dis-armed), myself included. I see lots of people talking about this issues, but no one is acting. How bad will it have to get before we start taking action and I am not talking about "voting in a president action". Presidents are puppets who are manipulated by very wealthy people, domestic and abroad. I am talking about re-organizing with a group of people to uphold the American constitution and re-balance the power of the government and the people.

I think its coming....just don't know when or how. Get enough people pi$$ed and I agree, we are in for a bumpy ride.

[jb2wheels]

Did we really land on the moon in '69. ;)

[atc007]

Did we really land on the moon in '69. ;)

I think so,,but I've never looked into it. Wouldn't surprise me either way.

[RiJiD-WILL]

Did we really land on the moon in '69. ;)

Buzz aldrin has many curious things to say about the moon and why we have not gone back.

this is a good thread there are some people opening their eyes to what has happened sadly I think most of america is so consumed with their virtual lives created by our monetary system no one has time to stop and think for themselves most people rely on TV media for news and believe the BS that is spewed forth just look at syria right now we have been over there creating unrest for some time now its no secret obama is funding the suposed Freedom fighters who yesterday were our enemies and before that they were our trainees AL CIA DUH thanks a ton from kennedy to 9/11 youre doing a bangup job.

[D-dub]

...........

[maxdallasfan]

no we did not land on the moon. The show fact or faked did a good story on this. I'm surprised it was "allowed" to air.

This is also why i'm buying a house that is far from any neighbors and will be off of the grid within a few years.

[Flossyb20]

Are you guys serious?? Is that the stuff you need to believe to sleep better at night? Instead of sitting around thinking up out-of-this world conspiracy theories, maybe we should be thinking of how to live our lives KNOWING that what happened happened because there are in fact wacko's out there who can't stand-us as a nation, be it for reasons of lifestyle, politics, or just simply the fact that we have what they can never. You can sit there and type all this crap up with wild, unsubstaniated accusations about our gov't because you are in fact, FREE to do so. The mear thought that our Gov't knew these tragedies were going to happen and did nothing about cheapens the lives given during the military actions that followed. You should be ashamed.

[dcreel]

I agree with everything you said John, I also believe that a Group, or large money backed country fast tracked Obama to the position of President of the United States and the sheeple of the United States bought it hook, line, and sinker. Think Manchurian candidate.

[atc007]

Are you guys serious?? Is that the stuff you need to believe to sleep better at night? Instead of sitting around thinking up out-of-this world conspiracy theories, maybe we should be thinking of how to live our lives KNOWING that what happened happened because there are in fact wacko's out there who can't stand-us as a nation, be it for reasons of lifestyle, politics, or just simply the fact that we have what they can never. You can sit there and type all this crap up with wild, unsubstaniated accusations about our gov't because you are in fact, FREE to do so. The mear thought that our Gov't knew these tragedies were going to happen and did nothing about cheapens the lives given during the military actions that followed. You should be ashamed.

1st thread I've ever felt compelled to dislike! All fabio asked you to do,,is take the time,,for you and EVERYONE you care about. Watch ALL of them,,the 2 movies a couple times each. THEN,, make your decision. It would certainly be interesting to hear you explain facts away..... Very sad.

[ATCcountryboy]

I also agree with everything you have said.

[Popeye]

Fabio, I didn't even know you were a member of this forum until a week or so ago. We didn't run across each others post and agree on them, but I think we view our country in the same light. I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation of 9/11-maybe you have the facts, but I choose to disagree. I do however agree with a lot of the other stuff you said. The US portrays itself as a victim, when it actuality we are just big bullies. We think we have a right to determine how other countries think and we always find a way to go over there and change their minds for them. The govt decides what they want to do and then feeds us a bunch of bullshit in an attempt to make us agree with them. It's called propaganda. In the end, most people agree because our govt wouldn't lie to us would they. Iraq didn't have weapons of mass disruption; George Bush had a vendetta against Saddam. I'm not saying Saddam was a good guy, but he didn't pose nearly as big a threat as the Iranians do now. Not to us at least. It was also about money, but I think Bush's own feelings are what actually made it happen. I may be wrong, but it's my opinion.

On another note, whose ass do we kiss more than anybody else's in this world? Answer: the Saudi Arabians. They've got the most oil and the most money-point blank. But does anybody know here that the word Taliban means student in Arabic. The Taliban were trained in Saudi Arabia. Think about it, the Saudis practice the most extreme form of Islam in the world. The Taliban took their teachings and then went a step further. So, our best friends taught, trained, and influenced the most feared organization in the world. But we still like them. When it comes to Saudi Arabia, our govt is like some 80's school girl and they are Tom Cruise. They got them mind trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro lol.

I love our country and hate our govt. Everybody says the US is the greatest country to live in on earth, but it's not. Hell, Canada and Italy have us beat right now. I truly believe it is just a matter of time before the real world powers get tired of us and take care of the problem. Maybe not in our lifetime, but some time. A lot of what Fabio says is right. People just don't want to believe it. I'm embarrassed to say I once worked for my country. It's like saying you worked for the Mob.

[fabiodriven]

Are you guys serious?? Is that the stuff you need to believe to sleep better at night? Instead of sitting around thinking up out-of-this world conspiracy theories, maybe we should be thinking of how to live our lives KNOWING that what happened happened because there are in fact wacko's out there who can't stand-us as a nation, be it for reasons of lifestyle, politics, or just simply the fact that we have what they can never. You can sit there and type all this crap up with wild, unsubstaniated accusations about our gov't because you are in fact, FREE to do so. The mear thought that our Gov't knew these tragedies were going to happen and did nothing about cheapens the lives given during the military actions that followed. You should be ashamed.

They've got you hook, line, and sinker. Educate yourself, then come back with some facts please. Nothing I have posted is hearsay or theory. They are all facts. Facts from our own government in some cases. Declassified documents from our own government. If you look, you will see for yourself.

Go get some facts and then come back.

[fabiodriven]

Fabio, I didn't even know you were a member of this forum until a week or so ago. We didn't run across each others post and agree on them, but I think we view our country in the same light. I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation of 9/11-maybe you have the facts, but I choose to disagree. I do however agree with a lot of the other stuff you said. The US portrays itself as a victim, when it actuality we are just big bullies. We think we have a right to determine how other countries think and we always find a way to go over there and change their minds for them. The govt decides what they want to do and then feeds us a bunch of bullshit in an attempt to make us agree with them. It's called propaganda. In the end, most people agree because our govt wouldn't lie to us would they. Iraq didn't have weapons of mass disruption; George Bush had a vendetta against Saddam. I'm not saying Saddam was a good guy, but he didn't pose nearly as big a threat as the Iranians do now. Not to us at least. It was also about money, but I think Bush's own feelings are what actually made it happen. I may be wrong, but it's my opinion.

On another note, whose ass do we kiss more than anybody else's in this world? Answer: the Saudi Arabians. They've got the most oil and the most money-point blank. But does anybody know here that the word Taliban means student in Arabic. The Taliban were trained in Saudi Arabia. Think about it, the Saudis practice the most extreme form of Islam in the world. The Taliban took their teachings and then went a step further. So, our best friends taught, trained, and influenced the most feared organization in the world. But we still like them. When it comes to Saudi Arabia, our govt is like some 80's school girl and they are Tom Cruise. They got them mind trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro lol.

I love our country and hate our govt. Everybody says the US is the greatest country to live in on earth, but it's not. Hell, Canada and Italy have us beat right now. I truly believe it is just a matter of time before the real world powers get tired of us and take care of the problem. Maybe not in our lifetime, but some time. A lot of what Fabio says is right. People just don't want to believe it. I'm embarrassed to say I once worked for my country. It's like saying you worked for the Mob.

Watch the two documentaries I posted Popeye. I can tell you're not a dumb guy. Please just watch them and tell me what you think.

[Flossyb20]

You guys can believe whatever you want here, if it makes you feel better...I guess everyone with a camera and a key board reports the "facts". Just remeber when you're watching these "factual" documentaries...hindsite is 20/20. If I seem to get a little heated about this I apologized...I'm a 10yr Active Duty officer in the AF. I still like you guys, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with you 100%...

[Popeye]

You guys can believe whatever you want here, if it makes you feel better...I guess everyone with a camera and a key board reports the "facts". Just remeber when you're watching these "factual" documentaries...hindsite is 20/20. If I seem to get a little heated about this I apologized...I'm a 10yr Active Duty officer in the AF. I still like you guys, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with you 100%...

I was in the Navy when I realized how crooked our govt is. Have you ever seen how much your civilian coworkers get paid? I knew something wasn't right when I found out the guy I was training (who only had a high school diploma) was making 3 times per month what I was. And getting the combat and hazardous duty pay that I was supposed to be getting but wasn't.

I respect your decision to respectfully disagree. Thank you for your service. Ten years ago was when I signed up and it wasn't an easy time to do so. You knew you weren't in for a cake walk.


@Fabio- I will watch them this evening and get back to you.

[fabiodriven]

You guys can believe whatever you want here, if it makes you feel better...I guess everyone with a camera and a key board reports the "facts". Just remeber when you're watching these "factual" documentaries...hindsite is 20/20. If I seem to get a little heated about this I apologized...I'm a 10yr Active Duty officer in the AF. I still like you guys, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with you 100%...

I'm not trying to change your mind, just educate you. The government you work for has already admitted they lied about the Gulf of Tonkin. This is not "internet hub-bub", this is fact from declassified government documents. From our government, from the government you are working for.

And I served too, I was in the army. I was in Iraq in the thick of it, in '03. I've been there and back buddy.

[atc007]

You know me Popeye. Sit down,at night with time to do this right. Watch each one at LEAST 3 times,,I learn more after 4 or 5 times myself. EVERY single OUNCE of footage you will see,is the SAME footage we ALL saw on CNN,ABC<CBS or NBC that night. SAME footage,,just slowed down. I sat here w my buddy and our wives that night after chores watching. I said those buildings were demoed,boom,,boom,,boom,floor by floor. You could SEE it. Watch em a cpl times,,and then ,,yeah,,it gets ugly from there. Look around,,and wonder. You were military,,you WILL recognize some of the equipment entering into the towers : (

[atc007]

You guys can believe whatever you want here, if it makes you feel better...I guess everyone with a camera and a key board reports the "facts". Just remeber when you're watching these "factual" documentaries...hindsite is 20/20. If I seem to get a little heated about this I apologized...I'm a 10yr Active Duty officer in the AF. I still like you guys, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with you 100%...

And Nothing but RESPECT for that.. That's why I said it;s even Bigger of Fabio to know what happened.. Most of our military don't want to hear it. What is it going to hurt YOU to watch these movies? If we didn't care,we wouldn't be trying. You of ALL people ,,need to know whatsup.

[300rman]

. SO,,lets take this a simple step further. Where DID the folks on those planes GO? I'm just asking. .

Well, I remember reading something about one of the supposed hijackers (whose name is still on the official list) who is STILL ALIVE and has since been interviewed. Dont remember which documentary I watched, it was probably Zeitgeist I heard that tidbit on.

Zeitgeist movie (first 40 minutes skipped) does a GREAT job detailing pretty much exactly what you have said there, Fabio.

"They" are disarming us. Historically, disarmament of the citizens leads to nothing good for said citizens. They are disarming us in more senses than just weapons, they have dumbed us down, generally speaking. The Masses are sheep, and "they" know it. Technology is awesome, but it is also a channel for evil.

Great thread, Fabio. Glad there are other people out there that actually don't accept that everything going on is simply convenient coincidence...

[whyzee]

Fabio, I have alot of respect for you as a person and your education. My first instinct when I read your post was to think you have lost your mind. But knowing you and hearing the advice you have given to people on the board is causing me to second guess my original thoughts on what you said.
I am going to take the time and go through everything you have written. It may take me a year or so but i am eager to learn..after all an old man once said " only a fool thinks he is wise ". ( me being the fool for only listening to the television )
Thanks for the post !

[bigbore88]

i agree with fabio now im not one for big words an such but they are tryin to diss arm us dumb us down tobtake advantage of us but wont happen to me i will never ne dissarmed and dumbed down hell if i was smart enought with the money id run for pres but that wont happen. i agree fabio and wen i get on my computer later ill watch the vids got the 3ww app on my droid lol only cool part about it

[atc007]

Fabio, I have alot of respect for you as a person and your education. My first instinct when I read your post was to think you have lost your mind. But knowing you and hearing the advice you have given to people on the board is causing me to second guess my original thoughts on what you said.
I am going to take the time and go through everything you have written. It may take me a year or so but i am eager to learn..after all an old man once said " only a fool thinks he is wise ". ( me being the fool for only listening to the television )
Thanks for the post !

Just be prepared for Everything that you THOUGHT you knew. To mean not much. You also know me well enough to judge me. Watch these,I have yet to see a couple of them. But In Plane sight ,and the other one I have watched,repeatedly. You'll just start living a little different after seeing the facts.. The demo team working the twin towers,,TWO years prior to 9/11,, on the EXACT floors that were imploded,,that was owned by Bush's lil brother. The ENTIRE military ," shut down" for war games the AM of 9/11,for" possible hijacked airliners targeting high rise buildings??" NO Fighter jets to scramble. You'll come away WAY smarter,,but with a LOT more questions.

[El Camexican]

I can tell that if I ever start bending elbows with some of you guys it will be a long, long night and I’ll probably lose my voice from arguing. Anyway, I don't have the time needed to respond to all of Flabio's post, but I can tell you that on 9/11 the Mexican news reported that flight 93 was shot down by US forces. I heard this with my own ears. Mexican new gets their reports from the AP, so someone explain that one.:wondering It was less than 1/2 hour later that they recanted the story. I believe it was shot down and I don’t think it was the wrong thing to do. As far as building blowing up and such I am a skeptic. Demolition is a very costly and invasive process, many would have had to have known and same is true if the charges were built into the buildings. There are no secrets on jobsites. As far as what steel does when heated and stressed, I told my wife the buildings were going to collapse soon after the fires started (I was watching live as I'd quit my job the day before) and I'm no expert. Heated steel twists all to heck when stressed and tears up easily. Those f%^$*)g camel f&%g#s hit the buildings perfectly. Its also no secret that nations lie, steal and cheat. Germany accused Poland of invading them, The US forced Hawaii to join them with economic terrorism and the acquisition of all the States that once were Mexico wasn't anything to be proud of either (don’t worry, they are getting even as I type) I'll bet the American Indians would love to add a few lines here to, but the bottom line is that "stuff" happens and life goes on and I can’t spend my life fretting when I could be drinking, or riding instead. If I live another 25 years as a free man and can still buy 2 stroke oil legally I'll die happy.

[fabiodriven]

El canucksican, I really, really want you to watch these documentaries. I know you're a smart guy and unbiased not being an American. I would be very interested in your take on these facts.

[badass350x]

Are you guys serious?? Is that the stuff you need to believe to sleep better at night? Instead of sitting around thinking up out-of-this world conspiracy theories, maybe we should be thinking of how to live our lives KNOWING that what happened happened because there are in fact wacko's out there who can't stand-us as a nation, be it for reasons of lifestyle, politics, or just simply the fact that we have what they can never. You can sit there and type all this crap up with wild, unsubstaniated accusations about our gov't because you are in fact, FREE to do so. The mear thought that our Gov't knew these tragedies were going to happen and did nothing about cheapens the lives given during the military actions that followed. You should be ashamed.


I guess some of us will except the mark of the beast also because of not understanding whats going on around you!!!

[El Camexican]

El canucksican, I really, really want you to watch these documentaries. I know you're a smart guy and unbiased not being an American. I would be very interested in your take on these facts.

How can I say no to a post like that? Just give me time, I'm just 16 hours into my workday and traveling at 6:00am. The good news is that my wife will watch them with me as she is into this stuff big time.

[Popeye]

And I served too, I was in the army. I was in Iraq in the thick of it, in '03. I've been there and back buddy.

I was in the Gulf all of 03 (March-October) on the Nimitz. We were providing the air support over there at the time. Although I don't know what those jets did once we sent them up. When we would send them up with bombs I can remember always praying they dropped them because if they came back loaded, my division was the only ones allowed on the deck while they were landing. We always figured one day one of them would mess up and blow us all up lol.

[Flossyb20]

Once you are done reading about all the so called facts, you'll need the other half of the story, then you should make your own decision...
http://www.debunking911.com/

[torque]

I can tell that if I ever start bending elbows with some of you guys it will be a long, long night and I’ll probably lose my voice from arguing. Anyway, I don't have the time needed to respond to all of Flabio's post, but I can tell you that on 9/11 the Mexican news reported that flight 93 was shot down by US forces. I heard this with my own ears. Mexican new gets their reports from the AP, so someone explain that one.:wondering It was less than 1/2 hour later that they recanted the story. I believe it was shot down and I don’t think it was the wrong thing to do. As far as building blowing up and such I am a skeptic. Demolition is a very costly and invasive process, many would have had to have known and same is true if the charges were built into the buildings. There are no secrets on jobsites. As far as what steel does when heated and stressed, I told my wife the buildings were going to collapse soon after the fires started (I was watching live as I'd quit my job the day before) and I'm no expert. Heated steel twists all to heck when stressed and tears up easily. Those f%^$*)g camel f&%g#s hit the buildings perfectly. Its also no secret that nations lie, steal and cheat. Germany accused Poland of invading them, The US forced Hawaii to join them with economic terrorism and the acquisition of all the States that once were Mexico wasn't anything to be proud of either (don’t worry, they are getting even as I type) I'll bet the American Indians would love to add a few lines here to, but the bottom line is that "stuff" happens and life goes on and I can’t spend my life fretting when I could be drinking, or riding instead. If I live another 25 years as a free man and can still buy 2 stroke oil legally I'll die happy.

i respect your opinion but on the subject of twisted steel i saw huge steel beams that were cut razer sharp, and looked almost surgical. when 9/11 went down i bought hook line and sinker, but ass time past i started to change my tune. if you have not looked at the links posted by fabio watch them there is some photographic evidence that is very hard to refute. at the very least this evidence does not match the official stroy.

one thing that has bothered me for a long time is that the american government pin pointed the taliban almost overnight bit after 40 plus years they still cant identify kennedy's assassin.

[threewheelin-feelin]

flossyb i agree with you...i am a big history buff so i have done lots and lots of research on 9/11..i have watched all the 9/11 conspiracy theorys and then found another movie to debunk everything...there are to many people that lay around eveyday just thinking up conspiracys... how bout michael moore think about how much money he made on his after he set the hook ;)

[Popeye]

First video with Jeff Daniels was spot on- took the words right out of my mouth. If he would have just left it as a rant it would have turned people away, but the way he finishes forces you to listen and in my opinion agree.

Collapse of bldg 7- The Silverstein statement that "we made the decision to pull" is not evidence of a demolition to me. He is not a member of a demolition team, so I don’t think he would use the jargon. Civilians don’t walk around calling walls "bulkheads" or bathrooms "heads". His insurance battles are also of no concern to me. He is a billionaire business man- you don’t get that way by being dumb or sensitive to other people. But the fact that no firefighters were in the building, the fact that the building had sustained relatively minor damage, and the collapse of the main beam are all points worth taking note of. Also, what the building may have contained could raise some eyebrows too. IMO it could have been a controlled blast that was strictly used to prevent a breach of security. The US will not hesitate to kill its own citizens in order to protect its interests- no matter how many lives it costs.

I don’t really have an opinion about the Loose Change trailer. Not enough information for me to go on. I don’t discount the theory that it was a foreign and domestic coup, but if it was then bin Laden couldn’t have had anything to do with it (why would he participate in something that they would blame him for and then hunt him down and kill him over). He admitted to taking part, so it doesn’t make sense.

I did not watch “911 In Plane Site” too long, I will save it for another day. Probably the most informative one though.

My profession prohibits me from sharing my complete opinion on The Flower video. This is not a private forum and although we have usernames- I like to be able to use my real name if I want. But I will say, if I had a choice between which was illegal-alcohol or weed- I would go with alcohol. If I had a choice of which one I didn’t want my son ever touching it would be alcohol. In my younger days, alcohol caused me a lot of trouble. The other has not.

As far as Area 51- I do believe the govt keeps a ton of secrets. Some in the interest of security and some for who knows the hell why. But I don’t believe in aliens or ghosts. Not saying they ain’t there I just don’t believe in them.

The TSA video had me confused. I don’t know why the guy said the TSA had no right to be there. It is a train station where people travel. I really don’t know the extent of the TSA’s authority though. I’m a small town guy that don’t travel much so it is of no concern to me at the moment. As far as them harassing him, it is to be expected. But that don't make it right. Like the words said- the police state is here. I agree that things are getting crazy, but I wasn’t really shocked by this video. I have been harassed worse than this guy for doing less. I like how he said “the constitution is my permit”.

One thing that I will throw out there is that I am a Democrat (if anything). I’ve lived at or below the poverty level my whole entire life. I can’t afford to be a Republican. One thing that irks me is the Democrats view on gun control. But it seems that they have kinda left it to the states for the time being.
Something that always made me laugh was a line from Ben Stiller’s movie “The Heartbreak Kid”, where Jerry Stiller is taking him to Mississippi to reunite with the girl and Stiller tells him “This is the bible-belt, these people have guns.” Damn straight!

[Maico]

My $.02 cents....(-$38 after taxes)....

That clown that's in office right now is nothing but a slick,two faced LYING assed SOCIALIST that wants America destroyed.

Do yourself a favor and look up the history on this clown. He's a Muslim. He's a bold faced liar. He's a SOCIALIST. He does NOT believe in AMERICA.

Hopefully a 1 term president.

[fabiodriven]

flossyb i agree with you...i am a big history buff so i have done lots and lots of research on 9/11..i have watched all the 9/11 conspiracy theorys and then found another movie to debunk everything...there are to many people that lay around eveyday just thinking up conspiracys... how bout michael moore think about how much money he made on his after he set the hook ;)

Hey flossy, here's your company. The 17 year old kid. Lol.

[fabiodriven]

The TSA video had me confused. I don’t know why the guy said the TSA had no right to be there. It is a train station where people travel. I really don’t know the extent of the TSA’s authority though. I’m a small town guy that don’t travel much so it is of no concern to me at the moment. As far as them harassing him, it is to be expected. But that don't make it right. Like the words said- the police state is here. I agree that things are getting crazy, but I wasn’t really shocked by this video. I have been harassed worse than this guy for doing less. I like how he said “the constitution is my permit”.

If you see nothing wrong with Americans being searched on their own soil based on reasons fabricated by those doing the searching, then they've got you. Don't complain when you have to sit at a checkpoint to enter a city or get searched to enter a mall.

I appreciate you checking out the links, but feedback from the actual documentaries and not just the previews would be optimum.

[atc007]

Yes,and for the record,,I didn't look at any of fabios links. I saw Loose change,and 9/11 In Plane Sight,,a few times each. PLEASE,,sit down and watch them A couple times!! That's ALL I 'm asking! YA know WHY??! Because I made flossy look like a conspiracy theorist!! I don't have time in my life for a tenth of reality! Too mention" lay around thinking up conspiracy's!" WATCH these,,with THE attitude that the people who made these are NUTS. THEN,,SHOW me a plane part in PA. SHOW me ONE SINGLE OUNCE of Flossy's theories at the Pentagon. For Gods sake people. These planes brought down the WTT ,1,2,and 7..???.BUT,,at the Pentagon,, the PAPERS{ laying AT THE Entrance of this " jet" that left NO parts behind I will ad,,} Are WHITE,unsinged,the wood desks perfect.. Military personnel stating they heard and SMELLED the explosives. Watch the Movies.A cpl times,,WITH the attitude YOU are going to discount them. Anyone intelligent enough to turn their computer on and find this thread will realize. then to bury your head in the sand and not ADMIT. That's your right : )

[Flossyb20]

Hey flossy, here's your company. The 17 year old kid. Lol.
Atleast there's another reasonable person here...you guys have to claim this steller list of scholars who believe everything Fabio posted...
http://www.thesharkguys.com/lists/top-10-celebrity-911-conspiracy-theory-nutjobs/

[TimSr]

Are you guys serious?? Is that the stuff you need to believe to sleep better at night? Instead of sitting around thinking up out-of-this world conspiracy theories, maybe we should be thinking of how to live our lives KNOWING that what happened happened because there are in fact wacko's out there who can't stand-us as a nation, be it for reasons of lifestyle, politics, or just simply the fact that we have what they can never. You can sit there and type all this crap up with wild, unsubstaniated accusations about our gov't because you are in fact, FREE to do so. The mear thought that our Gov't knew these tragedies were going to happen and did nothing about cheapens the lives given during the military actions that followed. You should be ashamed.

I do not believe anything the government tells me, I don't trust the government, the government is on a perpetual quest to continuously give itself more power over us, and would gladly screw us over in a New York minute if it were to benefit from it.

...but I'm with you 100% on this this one.

While all the conspiracy theories have interesting interpretations of "the facts", I've never heard a coherent explanation of a practical motive, or believeable benefit or an explanation of how they manage to keep the thousands of people who would be required to cooperate in the conspiracy quiet and leakproof when we can't even do a small scale asassination of a terrorist leader without releasing the the identitiess of the locals who assisted us. Of all the conspiratorial wars, you left out Korea, the Gulf War which never ended and was actually the beginning of the Iraq War, Bonsia, Serbia, and Panama to name a few.

While war stimulates economic activity, its does not produce revenue. It is a gigantic expense. We made far more money selling arms to the Brittish before entering WWII than we were cost by entering. If were were ready for the Japanese attack in 1941, and shot every one of them down, would we not still have declared war on them for their attack? If the planes that hit the towers had left them standing, would our course of action have been different? Really? Regardless of who fired the first shots in Vietnam, our policy of communist containment, right or worng, made the conflict inevitable.

Did our military shoot down Flight 93? Its no secret that that was the necessary military plan. Its also no secret it was the passengers' plan as well. Whether the passengers were successful, or whether it was shot down, and the passengers got credit and were made heros, does it change anything other than morale and the fact that lives were saved by bringing it down where it went down?

War has never benefitted a president since WWII. Quite the opposite.

Other than WWII, most of the wars were during times of very minor recession or economic prosperity.

WWII nearly caused the nation to go bankrupt.
911 threw us into a huge recession that still lingers.

We fight all these wars for oil, and yet where is it, and why do we fight so hard against producing our own and obtaining it from Canada?

WMDs never existed in Iraq, yet Iraqui chemical weapons are magically appearing in Syria. A president would take us to war over a personal vendetta against one man, but the notion that during a time when everybody was waiting for the next attack, that both he and congress (who approved his actions) truly believed this man would supply those weapons to terrorist groups and posed a threat is not believeable?

While its all very interesting and imaginative, I've never heard a plausible explanation as to what benefits could possibly make it worthwhile to cook up any of these conspiracies by anyone, even our government. How you could possibly execute these conspiracies in front of millions of witnesses, and with the manpower it would require and keep it secret is way beyond believeable to me.



I am not partial to any political party and know nothing of politics. I do like Ron Paul and what he stands for, but I haven't studied him thoroughly. I don't care for politics enough to concern myself.

I greatly respect your military service, but I find this statement shocking, and most troubling of all. The biggest problem our country faces today is that too many people take this attitude, and yet cast votes. If a person has not studied the candidates and their records (not the comercials), and the issues, they do not serve anyone by casting a ballot.

[Popeye]

My bad, I missed the point. I thought the links were what I was supposed to watch. It's not that I think it is okay to be searched on our soil for fabricated reasons, I guess I have just accepted it. I didn't get the significance of it all. They search you at the airport all the time. It's not that I approve of it, it's just what are you gonna do. I've accepted that they are gonna do what they do. A revolution would be great, but I would just move to a more stable country before I participated. I've got kids to raise. I couldn't imagine raising them during the first revolutionary war, much less one in today's world. If you don't have the majority you are facing certain death. I'm willing to die for my family, but not my country or our rights anymore. Too many better places to move to. If that makes me a coward then so be it.

I would like to say that I will sit down and watch movies about all the stuff you're talking about. But to be honest, it just don't interest me. Fabio, I agree that everything you said possibly happened. Our country is ruthless and will stop at nothing. I just don't care. I know that I am being trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro on a daily basis, but until it threatens the livelihood of my children I'm really not gonna do anything about it. I applaud those who will.

[kawasaki666]

:crazy::crazy:No wonder you ALL belong to this Forum, and ride 3Wheelers. YOUR ALL CRAZY!!!:crazy::crazy: Someone had to say it! LoL! Good thred! I could care less about this topic(but for some reason I read the whole frikin thing!), I'm just doing my time here on Earth, and having fun doing it! I'm just one person. I agree with most that is being said here(both sides). But the fact is . . . We as a Nation can do something about ALL this B.S.. It sounds good when being talked about, but, good luck getting us ALL to agree to stand up and do something about it. I am only 1 person! I choose to just ride! Thanks guys!

[fabiodriven]

To Tim Sr- If you could take the time to watch the two documentaries posted it would explain things a lot better than I did. The term "conspiracy theory" gets thrown around a lot. That term in itself is dismissive. There are facts, cold hard facts, eyewitness accounts, video footage, and photographic evidence that I promise you can not be ignored or dismissed if you have the time to watch these two documentaries.

I know it's a lot to ask for somebody to set aside a couple of hours of their life to watch something they probably otherwise wouldn't, but I promise you will look at things very differently if you do.

Many people say these things are crazy, they're just theories, etc... I didn't start looking into these things because I wanted to believe in them. I started looking into them because of the state of our country today. I asked myself what the heck is going on here? I refuse to believe a media who is constantly trying to cram propaganda down my throat and ignore the reality of what is literally in plane site for all to see, if they would just merely take the time to look.

The TV tells you what to think, who is important, and who you should listen to. And in between their mind numbing crap, all the TV does is try to sell you drugs. Think about it people! Multiple drug commercials on EVERY COMMERCIAL BREAK!



I greatly respect your military service, but I find this statement shocking, and most troubling of all. The biggest problem our country faces today is that too many people take this attitude, and yet cast votes. If a person has not studied the candidates and their records (not the comercials), and the issues, they do not serve anyone by casting a ballot.


Tim, I understand your view on people like myself voting, but you don't know my entire view. In my eyes, any candidate that actually stands a chance of winning our presidency is not worth my vote. Our entire government is a complete and total loss. I don't believe our voting system to be anything more than a farce, just as our puppet president. I get the feeling that Ron Paul may be an actual man outside of the circle of crooked politicians, somebody different. As I said, I do not know a lot about politics, but I am jaded. Very jaded. That's not my fault. Our government lies to us constantly and owns the media, so what am I supposed to believe? I do my own research on things I'm interested in and prefer unbiased opinions or proven, documented facts. I do receive information slower in that manner, but my information is far more accurate than what the talk box is telling you what to think.

[atc007]

Atleast there's another reasonable person here...you guys have to claim this steller list of scholars who believe everything Fabio posted...
http://www.thesharkguys.com/lists/top-10-celebrity-911-conspiracy-theory-nutjobs/

While I realize I'm barking up an empty tree here,and certainly should be doing better things with my time! That is just SAD Flossy. When I got to Heidi and her blonde hubby, i closed the link. They're nutjobs. We are asking you,,to WATCH 2 MOVIES. And then,,explain the Pentagon,,for better words,and to simply keep this short. Watch these,, hopefully a COUPLE times IF you actually CARE about anyone around you. And come back here and explain how a jet liner THAT Size fit into a 20 ft hole,,Never singing a single paper in the entry hole. THEN after they bombed the hole open bigger. You still couldn't fit half a plane that size in there. There are thousands of FACTS that simply are there. this is just one. I wait for you to WATCH the movies and explain this to us. I am Damn sure NOT a conspiracy theorist! I see facts and adjust my game plan as such... Tim,,I have all the respect for you ,you know that.. A plane never crashed in PA that day...

[fabiodriven]

I will speak to Flossy's link-

“How big a lunatic do you have to be to witness two jet airliners filled with jet fuel slam into buildings on live TV, triggering a massive inferno that burned for two hours and then think ‘Well, if you believe that’s the cause…’” Bill Maher

The problem here is, Bill Maher is a TV personality. Bill Maher is not a scientist, an engineer, an eye witness, a fire fighter, or anything other than a person who saw the same thing we all did on TV that day. Bill Maher saw and heard what the media wanted him to see and hear, just the same as everyone else. The fact that Bill Maher has a TV show does not make me think twice about the facts of 9/11.

With most of us here being gear heads, let's talk physics for a second.

They love to throw the term "jet fuel" around. Does anyone here know what kind of "jet fuel" a commercial airliner takes? It takes diesel fuel ladies and gentlemen. The very same diesel fuel we put in our trucks every day. I hauled diesel fuel in the army and we fueled helicopters, transport planes, and our trucks all from the same tanker.

I can't remember how much fuel those planes carried off the top of my head, but let's call it 10,000 gallons. Everyone saw the impact when the planes hit. I saw a big explosion and I know you all did as well. That was 10k worth of diesel fuel all exploding at once. So the plane hits, the diesel fuel burns off within probably a couple minutes at the longest, so what's left to burn? We have office furniture, paperwork, maybe some doors, concrete, and steel.

Now, I don't know how many of you are familiar with the properties of molten metal, but I am very familiar with oxy/acetylene and what it does to metal. That doesn't make me an expert on the engineering of buildings, but I do know enough to have a lot of questions. There is no way anyone is going to tell me that diesel fuel did enough damage to those beams to cause the complete collapse of those buildings. It is just simply not at all feasible.

Let's say for arguments sake that the beams did take that much damage. Those beams were completely compromised where they were hit and totally melted (which is impossible). Why did the beams on the lower floors give way? The top of that building could have completely collapsed on itself and there would be more than enough support left to hold itself up. So why did the entire building come down?

Let's talk physics. Let's say the lower parts of the beams were, in fact, compromised (impossible). We all know heat rises, right? So why would beams below the initial explosion suddenly give way? Does it not bother anyone that these questions have already been asked, yet NEVER ANSWERED? The "investigations" on why these buildings collapsed never, ever gave ANY REASON as to why these buildings came down.

But that's fine. The TV said there's probably some good reason somewhere, right? So there must be.

People, ask yourselves these questions, and if you can give me the answers then by all means DO SO.

For the record, there have been many sky scraper infernos over the years. Buildings made of the same material as the twin towers and tower 7. Not one of those structures collapsed, not one. These are the first three steel/concrete buildings IN HISTORY to have collapsed from fire. If the gall-dang TV told you that, you would believe it.

[Vealmonkey]

What I never understood, when talking about what happened at the pentagon, why did the government only release 3 pictures??? It also confiscated all film evidence that surrounded the pentagon that day? The public can drive by the pentagon any time, 24 hours a day. I attended motorcycle events that started at the pentagon parking lot. And it amazes me at the pictures it does show. When you are looking at the pictures, keep in mind a little word in the art world called "perspective". Perspective starts at a point and expands out from that single focal point and it makes all the objects in that picture look in relative size to each other. Nearer objects being bigger and farther objects being smaller. Now in one of the pictures, it shows something behind the gate that lets cars into that one particular section of the pentagon parking lot. But the thing is, how far away does a jet liner have to be to be obscured by the upright of the gate? Quite a distance I would imagine. But I don't really think there would be enough distance to hide the jet liner behind that upright post. For an example of what I'm talking about. Stand in the front yard of your house, unless you have alot of acreage (LOL) and hold up your thumb to your house and how much of the house is sticking out behind your thumb? Now back up far enough until your thumb covers the whole "picture" of your house. How far away are you now? That is perspective. And to me personally, it just never seemed correct to me about the gate pole covering the size of that "jet liner" in that picture in relationship to how far away that vapor trail appears. And there is another question. What jet leaves a vapor trail upon take off or landing? Vapor trails are made by the jet exhaust in the cool air. I seen jets take off and land on cold winter day, down near 10 degrees (and colder) that left no vapor trail. What gives? A person would think, that if the government would want us to believe that a jet airliner hit the pentagon that day, then it would want to show the jet airliner as evidence. I don't think that there are any gov't secrets in the area coming acorss the lot that the "jet airliner" traveled before it hit the building, so why not show better pictures what happened. Not just show 3 frames of a film after being forced by the courts to do so. And I'll just leave it at that and not bring up anything else. So the known facts here: Something struck the pentagon causing an explosion and a whole. The gov't has a film or several films of the incident, but will only show 3 frames, and that after a federal court order. The gov't confiscated all other photo evidence in the surrounding area of the incident. The 3 frames that are shown, do not clearly show a plane, let alone an airliner. Think about all that.

[fabiodriven]

What I never understood, when talking about what happened at the pentagon, why did the government only release 3 pictures??? It also confiscated all film evidence that surrounded the pentagon that day? The public can drive by the pentagon any time, 24 hours a day. I attended motorcycle events that started at the pentagon parking lot. And it amazes me at the pictures it does show. When you are looking at the pictures, keep in mind a little word in the art world called "perspective". Perspective starts at a point and expands out from that single focal point and it makes all the objects in that picture look in relative size to each other. Nearer objects being bigger and farther objects being smaller. Now in one of the pictures, it shows something behind the gate that lets cars into that one particular section of the pentagon parking lot. But the thing is, how far away does a jet liner have to be to be obscured by the upright of the gate? Quite a distance I would imagine. But I don't really think there would be enough distance to hide the jet liner behind that upright post. For an example of what I'm talking about. Stand in the front yard of your house, unless you have alot of acreage (LOL) and hold up your thumb to your house and how much of the house is sticking out behind your thumb? Now back up far enough until your thumb covers the whole "picture" of your house. How far away are you now? That is perspective. And to me personally, it just never seemed correct to me about the gate pole covering the size of that "jet liner" in that picture in relationship to how far away that vapor trail appears. And there is another question. What jet leaves a vapor trail upon take off or landing? Vapor trails are made by the jet exhaust in the cool air. I seen jets take off and land on cold winter day, down near 10 degrees (and colder) that left no vapor trail. What gives? A person would think, that if the government would want us to believe that a jet airliner hit the pentagon that day, then it would want to show the jet airliner as evidence. I don't think that there are any gov't secrets in the area coming acorss the lot that the "jet airliner" traveled before it hit the building, so why not show better pictures what happened. Not just show 3 frames of a film after being forced by the courts to do so. And I'll just leave it at that and not bring up anything else. So the known facts here: Something struck the pentagon causing an explosion and a whole. The gov't has a film or several films of the incident, but will only show 3 frames, and that after a federal court order. The gov't confiscated all other photo evidence in the surrounding area of the incident. The 3 frames that are shown, do not clearly show a plane, let alone an airliner. Think about all that.



How about the plane that hit the Pentagon? Does anyone find it odd that there was NO WRECKAGE of a commercial airliner at the Pentagon? Does it bother anyone that the hole made in the Pentagon was about half the width of a commercial airliner? There is no physical way a commercial airliner could have made the hole in the Pentagon that we all saw. We've all seen crash sites of commercial airliners on the news, we all know what it looks like. But there was no wreckage of a commercial airliner at the Pentagon... Why is there no video of this crash? You mean to tell me that the Pentagon, the very nerve center of our country, which is literally covered inside and out with cameras running 24/7, and all they have is one shoddy video of the explosion. It doesn't even show an airplane.



Pat, please do yourself a favor and watch the two documentaries. You're already on the right track.

[Vealmonkey]

I've watched them. I just wanted to point out these unrefutable facts without dragging anything else into the mess on just this one part of the subject. I was in the "haze grey canoe club". I know what can happen. I spent time in Beirut as part of the multinational peace keeping forces. It just saddens me how americans like being stupid. It also infuriates how people who have never served talk about patriotism or even write songs about patriotism. There was a clip a friend sent me about a tv show on hbo with Jeff Daniels who plays a reporter. The basis of the clip is how a college student asks a "panel" of people about america being the greatest country in the world. It should be a must watch for everyone. It echoes my feelings very well. A gentleman I work with always spouts off about america, and patriotism and religion and is possibly one of the biggest, 2-faced so and so that I know. I send him the clip on a weekly basis. LOL If you know of the clip, that is great. If you hate me for my beliefs, then so be it. At least I served. I also carried the bodies of dead americans killed in the bombing of the american embassy in Beirut and in the bomging of the Marine barracks (canvas tents) at the Beirut airport. I was involved in a few other less than savory things as well.

[Flossyb20]

If anyone here truly believes these to be the facts, and be true, then you should contact the authorities and have it investigated. You can show them all the documentaries and internet facts you've shown me here. Surely if all of this is true, there's eveidence out there right...I mean, could you imagine thousands of people dying horrible deaths on TV with a single shred of evidence to point to who did. I guess they'll have to completely ignore the confession made by Al Queda, and the videos of all the planes flying into the buildings, was that even real fire I saw on TV. I guess my Uncle who's office was destoyed at the Pentagon could be wrong when he pulled people out of the wreckage past still spinning pieces of engines...

[Vealmonkey]

And as far as commercial airliner crashes, I saw the aftermath of the airliner that crashed into Paris mountain in Virginia in the 70s. The scene was barely describable. My family and I saw what looked like a sock hanging from a tree branch, which ended up being the skin of a persons foot that was seperated from the rest of that persons body!!! Everywhere was wreckage, clothing, and other stuff. Nothing like what was at the Pentagon.

[fabiodriven]

If anyone here truly believes these to be the facts, and be true, then you should contact the authorities and have it investigated. You can show them all the documentaries and internet facts you've shown me here. Surely if all of this is true, there's eveidence out there right...I mean, could you imagine thousands of people dying horrible deaths on TV with a single shred of evidence to point to who did. I guess they'll have to completely ignore the confession made by Al Queda, and the videos of all the planes flying into the buildings, was that even real fire I saw on TV. I guess my Uncle who's office was destoyed at the Pentagon could be wrong when he pulled people out of the wreckage past still spinning pieces of engines...

You're totally missing the big picture here...

[D-dub]

...........

[atc007]

If anyone here truly believes these to be the facts, and be true, then you should contact the authorities and have it investigated. You can show them all the documentaries and internet facts you've shown me here. Surely if all of this is true, there's eveidence out there right...I mean, could you imagine thousands of people dying horrible deaths on TV with a single shred of evidence to point to who did. I guess they'll have to completely ignore the confession made by Al Queda, and the videos of all the planes flying into the buildings, was that even real fire I saw on TV. I guess my Uncle who's office was destoyed at the Pentagon could be wrong when he pulled people out of the wreckage past still spinning pieces of engines...


It could be that your Uncle,,after being bombed out of his office,dragging dead or battered human beings out of the site,,Could have been mistaken about THE Engine that laid there,,actually running.. They cover that engine VERY thoroughly in 9/11 In Plane Sight. I'm done with you,I Imagine you think we " GOT " Bin laden,,and " Out of RESPECT FOR HIS BELIEFS" We cremated him and gave him a proper burial at sea before sunrise... Sorry you even had to see any of this. I truly feel for ya. Good luck.

[Red Rider]

What jet leaves a vapor trail upon take off or landing? Vapor trails are made by the jet exhaust in the cool air. I seen jets take off and land on cold winter day, down near 10 degrees (and colder) that left no vapor trail.A lot of planes leave vapor trails on takeoff & landing. It just depends on the atmospheric conditions that day. It'll happen more frequently in humid conditions with a close temperature/dew point spread. The vapor trail, or contrail, left by an aircraft at cruise altitude is totally different, and has another cause altogether.

[Flossyb20]

I truly feel for ya. Good luck.
Likewise...as far as this issue, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree...atleast we'll still have the 3-wheelers in common:p

[fabiodriven]

Easy Bill. This is obviously a touchy subject and I knew that going in. I've not voted anyone's posts down or judged anyone based on what they do or do not believe. We're all brothers on here, I'm just trying to educate. If people don't want to see what I do, that's their choice.

[fabiodriven]

There was a clip a friend sent me about a tv show on hbo with Jeff Daniels who plays a reporter. The basis of the clip is how a college student asks a "panel" of people about america being the greatest country in the world. It should be a must watch for everyone. It echoes my feelings very well. A gentleman I work with always spouts off about america, and patriotism and religion and is possibly one of the biggest, 2-faced so and so that I know. I send him the clip on a weekly basis. LOL If you know of the clip, that is great.

That clip is the very first link I posted on the bottom of my first post Pat.

[atc007]

Easy Bill. This is obviously a touchy subject and I knew that going in. I've not voted anyone's posts down or judged anyone based on what they do or do not believe. We're all brothers on here, I'm just trying to educate. If people don't want to see what I do, that's their choice.

Same here. It's all good. I don't like being assumed a conspiracy theorist,,not that is a bad thing. I am SO far from that. I stumbled onto 9/11 In Plane Sight,on netflix after my son had got it for us. I /we,were browsing movies,,I had Never heard of it,and we sat there and watched. Now my personal story here is this. On the morning of 9/11,,around 8:30,a jet went over here,much louder/therefore,I assumed Lower,than normal. We learned of the 1st tower on radio,about 20 minutes later. Anyhow. I do think that what we are ASKING. Is a VERY doable deal. Sit down,get a cold one,and watch a couple movies. That's it.

[atc300r]

I agree with everything you said John, I also believe that a Group, or large money backed country fast tracked Obama to the position of President of the United States and the sheeple of the United States bought it hook, line, and sinker. Think Manchurian candidate.I thought the same thing when Osamma OOPS I mean Obama was running for pres.When him and Hilarius Clinton would talk about the 3 A.M, phone call.I said Manchurian Candidate.I also thought it was wierd that they didnt find any bodies in the twin towers reckage.And other witnesses said they heard explosions below .

[Vealmonkey]

The planes may leave a vapor trail, so let me rephrase the question. Show me a jet that upon takeoff and landing leaves a trail lilke that in the 3 frames of the film that the pentagon supplied to the public after being ordered to do so by the federal court system. I know of no commercial jet that leaves such a signature.

[Dirtcrasher]

I think about this stuff every day, America has seemingly destroying itself in the last one hundred years or so. We have just a teensy weensy bit of inflation and I heard there were like 7 new workers hired in the USA last month!!! WOOOOOOH......J/k :D

Dad always said wars create jobs.

Jobs? anyone? jobs? anyone????

As for the WT theories, I have allot of them and they show the same crap roughly

1 plane looked real, another a fake, another a rocket. I've seen a ton of vids of it and everything says "implosion to me " and "government security"

And people losing loved ones........ I hate to think the gov't did it but if a it walks like a duck, talks like a duck.??

So the whatever total plane crew and passengers are actors and or are all out there hiding now?? Alive?

Maybe a missile did hit the WT them but something else took them down, like implosion it seems....

[Red Rider]

The planes may leave a vapor trail, so let me rephrase the question. Show me a jet that upon takeoff and landing leaves a trail lilke that in the 3 frames of the film that the pentagon supplied to the public after being ordered to do so by the federal court system. I know of no commercial jet that leaves such a signature.The problem lies in the fact that you're comparing what you saw, with what you are accustomed to seeing. Watching a plane be purposely flown into a building is not common, and comparing what you saw with what you're used to seeing is absurd.

The plane that supposedly hit the Pentagon was not taking off or landing, it was flown in at maximum speed to inflict the most damage possible. When an airliner is landing, with the intent of transporting it's passenger's safely, it will approach slowly in a maximum lift, "dirty" configuration (landing gear, leading-edge flaps, slats, and trailing-edge flaps extended). To achieve maximum speed, the airliner would have been in "clean" configuration, with everything retracted, so I wouldn't expect it's vapor trail or contrail to look like anything your used to seeing when you go out to the airport.

[threewheelin-feelin]

Hey flossy, here's your company. The 17 year old kid. Lol.

17 year old kid? wtf?

[fabiodriven]

17 year old kid? wtf?

Sorry dude. Got ya confused with someone else.

[whitetail hunter]

Fabio, i could not agree with you more on the direction this country is heading. i am definately a believer in this gov't made disasters, i'm surprised you did not mention the Fema concentration camps you can type in to you tube. they are everywhere.
here is a bit of a read that was in my email


Joe Angione is a former columnist for The Villages Daily Sun. Click
Joe Angione to email Joe. An Obama rumor that must never become
reality A good journalist is usually taught not to print rumors or
at least never to present them as the truth.



What I'm going to report here is only a rumor that presently can't be
confirmed. But it is of such magnitude that it must be made known if only to
prepare America for a possible terrible eventuality. And while it has not
been confirmed, neither can it authoritatively and convincingly be denied,
certainly not in a United States where our
Constitutional rights are under constant attack. This rumor involves
an agent of the Department of Homeland Security who allegedly informed a
reporter at the Canada Free Press of a "false flag" or faked event to be
initiated by Obama administration operatives in the hope of
preventing the November presidential elections. Canada Free Press
(CFP) is an independent, conservative, electronic daily newspaper, updated
several times a day. It boasts more than 100 writers and columnists who file
stories regularly to the newspaper from all corners of the globe. According
to the newspaper's coverage of this DHS "whistleblower," the event would be
a staged assassination attempt on the life of President Obama that would be
blamed on "white supremacists" and subsequently used to enrage black and
Hispanic communities driving them to rioting all across the nation.



The faked assassination, says the CFP report, would be carried out through
the assistance of DHS agents, and "other colluders" taking their orders from
the White House. The objective would be to stir up enough racial unrest to
justify the imposition of martial law in major urban cities, including
erecting DHS checkpoints, restricting travel, and delaying (possibly
indefinitely) the November 2012 elections.
Doug Hagmann, reporting in the May 8, 2012 edition of the Canada Free Press
wrote that his informant works in "the upper-echelon of DHS", which he
described as "effectively under the control of Barack Hussein
Obama." Hagmann's contact said: "The DHS is actively preparing for
massive social unrest inside the United States. He then corrected himself,
stating that 'a civil war' is the more appropriate term.
Certain elements of the government are not only expecting and
preparing for it, they are actually facilitating it." The DHS
whistleblower mentioned a recent meeting at the Department of Homeland
Security where plans were discussed to use pawns to simulate the rioting
seen in the Arab Spring countries that would bring on a "controlled chaos"
for the benefit of the Obama administration.
"Envisioned by these conspirators are riots starting in urban areas such as
New York, followed by a disruption of business and commerce,"
the DHS source added. "They want to restrict travel, if not through high
energy prices, then by checkpoints and curfews mandated by the rioting and
unrest...The whole purpose is to keep Obama in office for another term, no
matter how unpopular he is, as he is not finished changing our country from
a Constitutional Republic."



This certainly isn't the first rumor to surface about Mr. Obama's intention
to subvert the U.S. Constitution, by manipulating economic, racial and
social issues that would polarize Americans and bring on
enormous conflict But the full measure of this contrived event, if
true, involves total suspension of our democratic rights, and repression on
a scale never thought possible in the America we've
known and cherished all our lives. It's a rumor that bears
watching.and is worth spreading because the more people who know about
it--and understand the high level of deceit and treachery that confronts us
daily in Washington--the less likely it is for the rumor
to become a reality. The lesson here is that if people are aware of
the possibility, even remote, of some great calamity befalling them, they're
on guard.they're prepared . their defenses are up, and those who would
commit evil, will back down fearing a confrontation they
can't win. The more we talk about the potential for a staged, bogus
presidential assassination that would trigger massive civil unrest and
possible martial law, the stronger is our defense against it actually
occurring. The nation will be watching. Patriots everywhere will be on
alert. The Obama administration will be under scrutiny more intense than
ever before. It doesn't have the guts to take on millions of
Americans when we're ready for anything. Sometimes rumors are a good
thing. --

[ATCcountryboy]

Fabio, i could not agree with you more on the direction this country is heading. i am definately a believer in this gov't made disasters, i'm surprised you did not mention the Fema concentration camps you can type in to you tube. they are everywhere.
here is a bit of a read that was in my email


Joe Angione is a former columnist for The Villages Daily Sun. Click
Joe Angione to email Joe. An Obama rumor that must never become
reality A good journalist is usually taught not to print rumors or
at least never to present them as the truth.



What I'm going to report here is only a rumor that presently can't be
confirmed. But it is of such magnitude that it must be made known if only to
prepare America for a possible terrible eventuality. And while it has not
been confirmed, neither can it authoritatively and convincingly be denied,
certainly not in a United States where our
Constitutional rights are under constant attack. This rumor involves
an agent of the Department of Homeland Security who allegedly informed a
reporter at the Canada Free Press of a "false flag" or faked event to be
initiated by Obama administration operatives in the hope of
preventing the November presidential elections. Canada Free Press
(CFP) is an independent, conservative, electronic daily newspaper, updated
several times a day. It boasts more than 100 writers and columnists who file
stories regularly to the newspaper from all corners of the globe. According
to the newspaper's coverage of this DHS "whistleblower," the event would be
a staged assassination attempt on the life of President Obama that would be
blamed on "white supremacists" and subsequently used to enrage black and
Hispanic communities driving them to rioting all across the nation.



The faked assassination, says the CFP report, would be carried out through
the assistance of DHS agents, and "other colluders" taking their orders from
the White House. The objective would be to stir up enough racial unrest to
justify the imposition of martial law in major urban cities, including
erecting DHS checkpoints, restricting travel, and delaying (possibly
indefinitely) the November 2012 elections.
Doug Hagmann, reporting in the May 8, 2012 edition of the Canada Free Press
wrote that his informant works in "the upper-echelon of DHS", which he
described as "effectively under the control of Barack Hussein
Obama." Hagmann's contact said: "The DHS is actively preparing for
massive social unrest inside the United States. He then corrected himself,
stating that 'a civil war' is the more appropriate term.
Certain elements of the government are not only expecting and
preparing for it, they are actually facilitating it." The DHS
whistleblower mentioned a recent meeting at the Department of Homeland
Security where plans were discussed to use pawns to simulate the rioting
seen in the Arab Spring countries that would bring on a "controlled chaos"
for the benefit of the Obama administration.
"Envisioned by these conspirators are riots starting in urban areas such as
New York, followed by a disruption of business and commerce,"
the DHS source added. "They want to restrict travel, if not through high
energy prices, then by checkpoints and curfews mandated by the rioting and
unrest...The whole purpose is to keep Obama in office for another term, no
matter how unpopular he is, as he is not finished changing our country from
a Constitutional Republic."



This certainly isn't the first rumor to surface about Mr. Obama's intention
to subvert the U.S. Constitution, by manipulating economic, racial and
social issues that would polarize Americans and bring on
enormous conflict But the full measure of this contrived event, if
true, involves total suspension of our democratic rights, and repression on
a scale never thought possible in the America we've
known and cherished all our lives. It's a rumor that bears
watching.and is worth spreading because the more people who know about
it--and understand the high level of deceit and treachery that confronts us
daily in Washington--the less likely it is for the rumor
to become a reality. The lesson here is that if people are aware of
the possibility, even remote, of some great calamity befalling them, they're
on guard.they're prepared . their defenses are up, and those who would
commit evil, will back down fearing a confrontation they
can't win. The more we talk about the potential for a staged, bogus
presidential assassination that would trigger massive civil unrest and
possible martial law, the stronger is our defense against it actually
occurring. The nation will be watching. Patriots everywhere will be on
alert. The Obama administration will be under scrutiny more intense than
ever before. It doesn't have the guts to take on millions of
Americans when we're ready for anything. Sometimes rumors are a good
thing. --Wow, wow, wow....VERY interesting I couldn't agree with you more.

[whitetail hunter]

yes i think we all need to wake up. and be ready to stand our ground.

[fabiodriven]

While I can see how this rumor does apply to what we are discussing here, I would like to point out one important difference between the rumor posted above and the facts that I am ranting about.

This rumor is just that- a rumor. It is a forwarded email that anybody could have written. We will find out soon enough if it is true or not. I personally do not see that one coming true. What I originally posted about is all fact. Proven facts with video evidence and eye witness accounts. That's why I find it so disturbing and feel the need to inform others about it.

[whitetail hunter]

i understand completely. and agree with you 100%. you can have billy or one of the other guys delete my post if you want. i don't mean to hijack your thread withspeculation. sorry!

[atc007]

I see where you're coming from fabio,but I think it's good you posted that somewhere Whitetail! Doesn't hurt to be aware.

[atc007]

Well, fellas. I'm sitting here watching ,,ok,,I hardly ever watch tv,Never the news,cnn or that mind numbing crap,,too MENTION the weather forecasters....ugghh... Ok, the news is on out in My Mom and Dads room.. What do I hear? White supremacist.. I look up and it's PLASTERED across the tv screen. HUGE white letters.. I loosely gathered there was a shooting in Wisconsin? Again,sorry,I don't watch news. The news station { local} Scranton PA } is plastering white supremacist all over the tv screen?... I'm sure it's just a coincidence,it was just odd to see that post last night then this.

[DeePa]

John,

Not to be a douche, as I feel something is extremely fishy with 9/11, but as a soldier going overseas because of 9/11, what did you feel about it then and what did the other soldiers think about it?

Mike


While I can see how this rumor does apply to what we are discussing here, I would like to point out one important difference between the rumor posted above and the facts that I am ranting about.

This rumor is just that- a rumor. It is a forwarded email that anybody could have written. We will find out soon enough if it is true or not. I personally do not see that one coming true. What I originally posted about is all fact. Proven facts with video evidence and eye witness accounts. That's why I find it so disturbing and feel the need to inform others about it.

[fabiodriven]

John,

Not to be a douche, as I feel something is extremely fishy with 9/11, but as a soldier going overseas because of 9/11, what did you feel about it then and what did the other soldiers think about it?

Mike

Mike, do yourself a favor and watch the documentaries.

Late in 2002 when I got the notice my unit was being deployed, I was a truck driver just starting out with my career. I had worked a couple of jobs driving trucks and was trying to "climb the ladder" into a job that I could make a career out of. I watched as everyone started putting American flags all over the place and drove around with American flags all over their cars. There was a hype for us to go. A hype that I now know was manufactured. I did question it at the time, even though I don't know why. I didn't lace up my boots and go running over to the middle east to exact revenge on those that had attacked us. I was living in the town that I had grown up in, not a lot of money to my name, no girlfriend, and not a whole lot to do. Long story short, I was bored. When I heard the news we were going, I gave my work notice and headed over to my army unit first thing. I was dying to do something different. I wasn't doing it for my family or yours, I was doing it for myself. I wanted to go drive around a foreign country and put my training to use. I wanted to fly across the desert in a tactical (off road) tractor trailer at full speed (which I did do) and play with machine guns (which I did as well). I guess I was just bored and wanted a challenge.

[DeePa]

John,

I did watch them. I have always been interested in 9/11 as I felt something was not right. I was mainly asking about if any of this stuff was talked about during your tour and if you felt this way back when you were there. Or maybe this information came about much later or after your tour?

Thanks,

Mike

[fabiodriven]

I honestly do not remember discussing it at all while we were there.

[DeePa]

When did you first feel that it was "inside job"? Did you feel this right when you left or later on when you watched everything? Not trying to be a prick but just trying to see when you first felt this way.

Thanks,

Mike

[El Camexican]

Well Flabio I watched all the clips you posted with the exception of the movie which I watched a few years back. While I can’t explain a lot of what is shown and insinuated I do have trouble with a few things I’d like to point out. First of all is the steel and how it reacts in heat. As far as I know it bends, it twists and if it is stressed (like would be the case in the Towers) I could see it tearing. As far as what looked like coordinated explosives in the main towers, (if I recall that movie correctly) would it not stand to reason that as each floor above fell the pressure would force out the windows on the floor below making it look like a timed explosion? If heat was the reason the buildings collapsed would it not make sense that the centers were the hot spots and that that was where the collapses began, just like a planned demolition? I can’t disprove any of what was said, but I’m not taking the hook, line and sinker on the first bite either. Secrets are hard to keep, each time a lie is told more must be told to cover for the first one and usually that’s when the best laid of plans starts to fall apart. The more people that are involved the less likely the secret is to be kept. In order for these theories to be true it would require that hundreds if not thousands of people to keep quiet. Demolition teams, explosives dealers, maintenance workers, politicians, pilots, air traffic controllers, families of passengers and the list goes on. I just can’t get myself to believe that that many people can keep a secret and that only one or two will talk about it. Where are the guys who pulled the triggers on missiles aimed at American property? In short if someone tells me they saw a cat bark I will need to see it for myself. What concerns me more than these possibly orchestrated events is the resulting loss of freedoms for those of us that are not guilty. I travel a lot and cross international borders at least 30 times a year. I have seen the crossings go from a few friendly questions and the flash of a driver’s license to what amounts to a body search that includes borderline lewd acts of fondling. While I don’t like it I can understand why it is necessary when boarding a jet (thank you nut jobs), but to see it happening within the cities of the US while the same government that is backing such invasions of privacy is at the same time facilitating the influx of illegal aliens leads me to only one explanation: POWER GRAB. Every time something happens the government takes the opportunity to grab a handful of power. They hire more employees to check your id and secure your borders and then don’t let the border patrols detain illegals that are crossing because some day that illegal will vote for them and help drain the resources that will require more taxes to replenish them. Some simple math (that makes me fear Canada) Add up the citizens. Determine how many are in school or younger, working, retired, and those who are receiving some sort of public assistance. Then of those who are working determine how many are working for the government (regardless of level) Cops (all of them) Military, FBI, CIA, Politicians, D.A.’s, Secret Service, CBP, ICE, TSA, city workers, State employees, federal Employees, etc. I’m sure I missed many. Now think about how many of those who are working for the private sector (usually for less money that those getting a government check) it takes to support this monster. I don’t have the numbers in my head, but I recall Canada was on a fast track to broke when I guestemated this many years ago. That is why they are letting so many people pour into the country to help pay the massive cost of the socialist machine that is Canada. So moving on, if your income is tied to the government how likely are you going to be to take up arms and fight the beast? To make sure this never happens the US now has cameras all over the place and urban drone programs are well under way for “your protection”. Every time the government takes control of a part of your life you have less reason to oppose their will. As Americans you have the greatest constitution in the history of mankind, yet you fail to follow it the way the forefathers intended for you (they were geniuses) and sadly, for this sin you, or your offspring will eventually have to spill blood to recover your freedoms, but I doubt it will be for years as there are far too many who are content to just keep giving up freedoms for another day of peace. It won’t be until food and water are scarce that the big trouble will start, but by then big brother will be so powerful it will be able to crush an uprising with ease. At some point the whole cycle of civilization will begin again, just like it did when Rome and other great nations of the past got too big for their own good.

Here are a couple links that might raise your eyebrows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IldGbAWwD-I
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/BODIES.html

[fabiodriven]

Mike, you can ask me as many questions as you want.

I was first amazed at how a nation could "pull together" the way ours did after 9/11, but I questioned it. It's in my nature to question things. It didn't seem right to me but I couldn't pin point why. I just felt like something was wrong with it.

I questioned things more when our government manufactured a lie to get us over there. People can tell me all day that our government made a mistake. It was no mistake that they didn't find weapons of mass destruction. There are people in all branches of our government that have lives in the palms of their hands every day. People who, if they made a mistake, other people would die. Our government entrusts people with jobs that require no mistakes are made, ever. There are fail safes upon fail safes for everything. Somehow though, some way, our government was able to "overlook" the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Oopsie! No big deal. They only deployed our ENTIRE military and killed countless people. They made Saddam out to be an evildoer, a villain. Somebody who deserved retribution, and we would deliver it. He was an evil man who ruled with an iron fist.

Regardless of how Saddam ruled his country, it's still his country. How he ruled his country was none of our business and didn't warrant our presence. But we were already there based on the guise that Saddam wanted to attack us. We all know Saddam started the problem with us, don't we? It said so on the news. The problem I have with that is our government owns the media outlets. I'm sorry, but that is a conflict of interest. There is enough greed in Washington to lie to the American public and then some. If you think our government wouldn't lie to the American people, you are wrong. THIS IS NOT THEORY, THIS IS FACT. Your government has lied to you all and everyone you know. It's documented over and over and over. But they're telling the truth this time? I don't facking think so.

So since we're already in Iraq, why not instill some democracy? Let's show these people how it's done! Democracy for all!

Here's a thought- What if those people don't want democracy? What if democracy isn't the government of choice for the Iraqi people? Did anyone stop and ask themselves that while we were cramming the notion of democracy down their throats and pissing all over the entire point of democracy?

The Iraqi people are animals. They are not us and they do not live like us. If something works for us, it doesn't necessarily mean it will work for them. These are people who live in huts and carry AK-47's everywhere they go. If they had their equivalent of a "meeting of congress", men would get shot during the meeting. Is this wrong? Not in Iraq. It may seem wrong to Americans but guess what? This is America, that is Iraq. They should be able to run their country any way they want.

If anybody seriously thinks that this "threat" from Iraq was serious enough that they could reach the shores of North America, they need to look into the Iraqi military. Tanks from WWII, a handful of helicopters, I'm not positive but I think they literally had one fighter jet. "Oh but they hijacked a jet!" Iraq did not hijack a jet.

So we invaded a foreign country for what? Can anybody tell me? Why did we go to Iraq? Once we got there and the reason was false, why did we stay?

Saddam did rule with an iron fist. That's all those people know. That is why they were ruled the way they were, because it's the only way they'll stay in line. Look at them now that Saddam's gone. They're just falling right into place, aren't they? Everything is all fixed in Iraq now that they have democracy. I'd have to say it was worth all of the money, all of the effort, all of the heart break, and every single one of the lives lost if you look at Iraq today. It's a shining example of democracy now, is it not?

But the TV says it's much better over there so...

They tell us that Osama Bin Laden is dead and we're all supposed to rejoice. It's like a conductor standing at his podium cuing us all to applaud. Whoever thinks that our government can't find a man who lives in a cave doesn't know our government very well. Our government can find anyone they want. If they had wanted Bin Laden dead the week after 9/11, he would have been dead.

I remember years ago hearing people talk about some of the facts about 9/11 I now know to be true. The hole in the Pentagon being the wrong size, the lack of wreckage both there and in PA, etc, etc. I thought those were just theories so I didn't pay them much mind. I really didn't buy into the popular, commonly accepted story of 9/11, with the box cutters and hijackers and all of that. I didn't have any reason to believe it, but I had plenty of reasons not to. Our government lies all of the time. Again people, THIS IS FACT. I base every decision I make in my life on the truth. I do not like lies and I do not like liars. One simple lie can change the way I look at a person from that point forward. Our government has lied to us all many, many times. This is something that I know and I will never forget. Our government is shot. It is full of liars. Their business, is to lie. Everyone knows this, but why does everyone accept it? I refuse it. I choose to think for myself and form my own thoughts based on fact. As stated before, I may miss out on some things by not watching the news or reading the paper, but I don't want to know what they want me to know. I'll get the facts when the dust settles.

So basically Mike, this has been something that's been forming inside of me for quite some time. I watched the two documentaries that I posted and read the book at about the same time, about a month or a month and a half ago. Those documentaries show you photographic evidence, scientific evidence, and eye witness accounts from those who have no vested interest in whomever is to blame for anything. These people are impartial. They saw and heard what happened, and there is video to back up their claims, yet their questions go unanswered. Their shouting goes unheard. They gather in droves and are ignored. Why is this? Why is it that these people can not get an answer to their questions? Why would our government, the government by the people and for the people, ignore such an outcry?

The simple answer that we all know should we choose to look is that they can not give us the answer to the questions being asked. Why would such an atrocity go uninvestigated and have the very evidence of who would commit such an act obscured immediately after? The biggest crime scene in the world, the biggest "foreign" invasion of all time committed on American soil and we cart the evidence off to all corners of the globe to be destroyed right off the bat. Does this not make sense to anyone else?

Your media will lead you to believe that Osama Bin Laden took credit for 9/11, but he never actually did. The "video footage" you saw was grainy beyond belief and very poorly translated. Some even say his videos were edited together. I wouldn't doubt it. Every single thing you watch on TV these days is edited. But the media wouldn't edit that, would they? If Bin Laden ever had his day in court, let's call it Bin Laden vs The American People, America wouldn't stand a chance. They would ask America for their side, America would say "He did it", and that would be it. The evidence is gone. That case would get thrown right out of court.

I choose my outlets of information and avoid the main stream media. I like being happy and optimistic regardless of the state of the world today. I try not to dwell on the big picture because there isn't a whole lot I can do to change it. I refuse, however, to watch the talking heads on TV give me a fake smile and tell me what to think, whether it be good or bad. I don't need their propaganda. I can form my own thoughts. The human brain worked just fine for eons before the last few years where man decided it could be improved from chemicals. Chemicals manufactured by man and never designed to be ingested by the human body. There are natural remedies to many, many ailments but they take a back seat artificially manufactured drugs that may mimic the benefit of the natural remedy, but always have a side effect. There is no such thing as a cure all drug. They're all addictive, they all have side effects, and everyone is hooked on them. The TV sells them to you and tells you of ailments you otherwise wouldn't have ever thought you had, so you must need that drug! Uncle Sam is the biggest drug pusher in the world and it makes me sick.

But I digress...

Open your eyes people.

[fabiodriven]

First of all is the steel and how it reacts in heat. As far as I know it bends, it twists and if it is stressed (like would be the case in the Towers) I could see it tearing.

I can see steel bending and breaking with the appropriate amount of heat or damage. However, the damage inflicted upon that structure was not enough to totally compromise those beams in my opinion and the resulting fire was nowhere near hot enough to cause them to fail. If the beams that had been hit the hardest (at the point of impact) were damaged that severely, that side of the building could easily fail, but I have a tough time believing that would be a symmetrical collapse which began centrally in the structure and demolished the building so cleanly.

Why was there evidence of thermite on the scene and why did eye witnesses hear explosions?


Secrets are hard to keep, each time a lie is told more must be told to cover for the first one and usually that’s when the best laid of plans starts to fall apart. The more people that are involved the less likely the secret is to be kept. In order for these theories to be true it would require that hundreds if not thousands of people to keep quiet. Demolition teams, explosives dealers, maintenance workers, politicians, pilots, air traffic controllers, families of passengers and the list goes on.

Scary, isn't it?


Every time the government takes control of a part of your life you have less reason to oppose their will.

On the contrary, I have more. I have been getting more and more angry with the freedoms that are being taken away. I wonder where it may lead me someday.

[whyzee]

Not getting into a pissing match here but 9/11...c'mon.
i have seen just as many documentaries as to why the buildings collapsed.
Building 7 is definitely worth looking into...that is very interesting as to why it fell so cleanly.
As far as cleaning up the " crime scene " so quicly.I do believe we were still looking for survivors as hopeless as it was...even one pulled from the carnag e would have made it worth it. It was pretty freaking obvious that 2 planes flown into the towers was the cause of the wreckage...no need for an investigation there.

[fabiodriven]

Building 7 is definitely worth looking into...that is very interesting as to why it fell so cleanly.


So your curiosity about Building 7 doesn't arouse any suspicions about the other things happened that day? Maybe just building was demolished but the other buildings really fell?



As far as cleaning up the " crime scene " so quicly.I do believe we were still looking for survivors as hopeless as it was...even one pulled from the carnag e would have made it worth it. It was pretty freaking obvious that 2 planes flown into the towers was the cause of the wreckage...no need for an investigation there.

Removing the wreckage from the site is fine. Immediately dispersing it all over the globe is not typical.

There have been plenty of crime scenes reconstructed off site. I'm not saying they could have re-assembled either the planes or the buildings, but everything was shuttled right out.

"No need for an investigation" is exactly what they want you to say. If you pay attention, there are far too many questions that go unanswered.

[whyzee]

Giuliani not being rushed into his "safe house " is no surprise .. Would you want to be rushed into that building while the Twin towers were burning out of control right next store?

[fabiodriven]

I'm not here to convince you. I do get enthusiastic, but you believe whatever you want.

[whyzee]

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here.
I am open minded...and that building 7 has really got my attention!

[atc007]

Not getting into a pissing match here but 9/11...c'mon.
i have seen just as many documentaries as to why the buildings collapsed.
Building 7 is definitely worth looking into...that is very interesting as to why it fell so cleanly.
As far as cleaning up the " crime scene " so quicly.I do believe we were still looking for survivors as hopeless as it was...even one pulled from the carnag e would have made it worth it. It was pretty freaking obvious that 2 planes flown into the towers was the cause of the wreckage...no need for an investigation there.

The planes flown into the buildings were military planes, There are explosions IN the buildings,BEFORE the planes hit.That's clearly covered in the movies. Don't just watch the clips folks!! Watch the ENTIRE movies,then believe what you wish! The detonations,,I'm sorry,,explosions ,were heard in the buildings,WHILE the recues were going on. Witnesses?? The NYFD. Among 100's of others. They know what they saw and heard.

[El Camexican]

On the contrary, I have more. I have been getting more and more angry with the freedoms that are being taken away. I wonder where it may lead me someday.

My apologies for that. I should have said “most people” as most people are sheep and sheep, no matter how many there are in a herd will take orders from a dog or two. I gravitate towards what I suspect is your belief that the government should just frickoff and stay out of our lives to every extent possible. That said, take a family of two kids getting a free education and school lunch, two parents on welfare and food stamps and grandparents of the same status and tell me who is going to ever stand up and demands that Big Brother back off? Every one of them will vote for whoever offers to keep them warm and safe regardless of what it costs them in liberties. As far as where
your beliefs lead you, please don’t strip a thread and do something stupid. We can still vote, use that as your means of expression (and of course this site) :beer

[Scootertrash]

El,
I think Ben Franklin covered what you just said a long time ago:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

[El Camexican]

El,
I think Ben Franklin covered what you just said a long time ago:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

Hence my admiration of America’s forefathers and what they left you (and my disgust at what is happening to their genius). They knew exactly what would happen if the government got too big, or disarmed its citizens. Now take Canada which was basically handed the British constitution and walked away from because neither the Brits or the French had enough dry powder left to determine who owned it, so they signed half-baked treaties both with each other and the natives and left the finer details that your founders so carefully thought out for future generations (and lawyers) to squabble over. In essence they left us a huge mess. As potent as it’s economy is at this moment, in time it’s social systems will eventually drag it into the ground like ticks on a fox as its mentaly and financialy subdued citizens watch in despair. Anyway, this thread is about government cover-ups, so ignore my rant and carry on please.

PS. Great to see so many people participating in this thread regardless of their beliefs and amazingly with no name calling or insults.:beer

[El Camexican]

http://news.yahoo.com/officials-fire-88th-floor-1-world-trade-center-123106653.html

This just in

[whyzee]

Ok, had a tiny bit of time to do some reading/ thinking today.
After the attack on the WTC in 1993 , it could very well be possible that the Twin towers as well as surrounding buildings and targets were prepped for an emergency controlled demolition to prevent further collateral damage by having the buildings attacked by others and having them tip over uncontrollably and cause massive massive destruction.
I can believe this theory 100%. Do I believe we attacked ourselves for war purposes etc...absolutely not. I think you guys are being a little to paranoid.
Again...just a theory...

Do I believe we shot down flight 93 to prevent a further attack. Absolutely 100%. I knew the second they said the plane went down in a field with nothing around. I think said to my wife before it happened as we were watching the television that we were going to shoot it down.

[Billy Golightly]

Ok, had a tiny bit of time to do some reading/ thinking today.
After the attack on the WTC in 1993 , it could very well be possible that the Twin towers as well as surrounding buildings and targets were prepped for an emergency controlled demolition to prevent further collateral damage by having the buildings attacked by others and having them tip over uncontrollably and cause massive massive destruction.
I can believe this theory 100%. Do I believe we attacked ourselves for war purposes etc...absolutely not. I think you guys are being a little to paranoid.
Again...just a theory...


Thats the only explanation I've ever heard for the "demolition" theory that actually has a tiny bit of logic to it. I could believe that.

[Billy Golightly]

Watching the videos, the one on ebaums world, commical, and true. I don't disagree with that sentiment very much, but I disagree for the reasons. I think we're questionably not the greatest country in the world anymore because of all the senseless rules and regulations we've subject ourselves to all the while encouraging our competitors to kick our own asses with processes and technologies we invented but don't find "environmentally friendly" anymore. I mean, you have to go to Mexico to get a good chroming job on bike parts and thats 100% absolutely NO BULLSHIT because the EPA has too strict of handling procedures and doesn't even allow the use of some of the chemicals anymore so we're left with an inferior process. While our counterparts take the processes we for the most part either originated or perfected and run with it while we're stuck with the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro way to do things. Thats why we suck.

Just playing devils advocate here.

Second video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEuJimaumW4

The first "got ya" is Guiliani's "we were told the wtc was gonna collapse":

1: The bottom of the video is cut off where you can't see the time stamp. This was obviously recorded after the towers had fallen (I watched firefighters I knew run into the building, its gonna be a horrible number, etc.). I think in the heat of the moment, thats an easy slip of the tongue or miss-statement for "we were told it had collapsed". But I'll play a long with the theory he knew it was going to come down ahead of time. Why does the audio abruptly end there? Maybe he actually corrects himself in the clip or maybe it was taken out of context? The video cuts it off too quick to know for sure...

2: Building #7 being demo'd, I don't really dispute that. I think I remember even hearing that on the news the same day as the main towers went down. It was either damaged from trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro falling from the others, or there had been some gas mains leaking they didn't want spreading into the other debris field, or something. I distinctly recall that being mentioned on live news ON september 11th though because I was glued to the tv for like 2 days.

The guy saying that it fell due to fire alone sounds like a voice over to me. Wheres someone like Guiliani saying that it collapsed just due to fire, or a fire chief, or someone prominent? Actually, you can take that clip they used in the beginning about "WTC was gonna come down" from Guiliani and say he was talking about this one, wtc building #7. Maybe I'm just crazy and the only one that ever heard them say they were going to actually demo building #7, but I don't understand all the hoopla over that. They mentioned there were office spaces housed the CIA/NSA/etc. etc. following on whyzee's theory, they easily could have had some highly classified stuff in there, and with the building being evacuated, and thousands of people running around there could have been a real concern for a security breach where they did it for that reason too. Theres a clip shown of the Firefighters saying to stand back because it should be coming down any moment, see I think I remember watching that on TV before. I don't know, but I don't think anyone was hurt/killed in the fall of building #7, was there?


I'll watch the other ones and give my feedback on them later on.

[Billy Golightly]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2361717427531377078

This video:

2:46 in and I've already caught and seen the guy use some NLP tricks (Word association to elicit certain emotions, hand gestures to anchor those feelings with his movements, etc.). This should be interesting.

(Since we're all googling and opening our minds to new things, do some searching on "Neuro Linguistic Programmin". Specifically about what Bandler and whatever that other guys name was that invented/discovered the process.



:lol: this guy is good. Horizontal Hand cutting at 3:39 "No conspiracy theory". A little after that vertical hand cutting for "Could be possible" type terms. More anchoring. My bet is I see these same gestures again later on when he is trying to convince me of something and elicit those same emotions he anchored with here in the beginning....


Who are these people with the quotes coming up? in the 6:20 range. Anyone can type some text up on a video and put a name behind it. Just Sayin.


Guy in yellow polo shirt (Looks very civilian to me) 6:50 range "It looked like a cruise missle with wings just slammed into the side of the building." Probably like the rest of us and never seen a cruise missile in person.

8:07 mark, picture at the bottom right corner. If thats suppose to be at the Pentagon I need a bigger high res version of that to look at, because its so close up and so cropped out, it looks like it could be anything. Could be the hole in the side of the USS Cole for all we are able to tell by fact. It does a good job of making us assume what it is though by placing it with other images that we know as fact.

10:00 Mark, re smoke and heat damage (or lack thereof) at the pentagon. If memory serves me correctly the plane that hit the Pentagon had a much shorter flight plan originally and therefore had probably much less fuel (Could be wrong, thats what I remember)

10:25, re book on stool, pages not even singed. Who the hell reads a book on a stool, in the Pentagon no less? Thats probably the cover and padding ripped open on the top, but thats a minor thing.


12:00 mark, Re tail section slamming into the Pentagon. I'm not sure how many of you fly often, or even have flown before. I never did until a few years ago but now I fly 3-4 times a year. I've often sat at the window seats and looked out over the wings flopping and moving up and down as we taxi the run way. Planes are built to be light weight, and flimsy. Hell, Southwest Airlines had a section of their fuselage rip open a few months ago just from flying the damn thing in the air: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2014685440_boeing05.html That was a 737, but I've flown on a 757 too and They do the same trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro, believe me. The Pentagon, by definition was to be built like a brick outhouse. Its kinda like, shooting a beer can into a concrete block wall. I'm kind of surprised it did as much damage as it did from the impact alone. Keep in mind also, the Pentagon was designed in layers. I'm not smart enough to understand the physics, but I know and most other people will agree that something made up of multiple layers in the same dimensions as a solid item will be stronger. Just saying.

Re: Video footage. That probably was the only footage available. John Smith probably had been sleeping on the job and didn't have trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro working or turned on, and in order to save themselves the embarassment of telling the public "Hey guys, uhh, we uhh forgot to have the cams on, or that one at the other corner had a foggy lens so we unhooked it" or whatever, its easier to just say "Classified" to cover their asses. Government efficiency, Its a plausible reason to not have footage, you've got to admit. (No offense intended to any government workers, but you get my point)

Re: Gas station footage that was confiscated. Wheres clerk/owner/whoever there at time that happened to talk about it?

Re: Book talking about crater depth/width, Written by California University. But not actually there. Probability that writers and editors were high on california pot and had never seen the site in person since it was on the opposite end of the country, fairly probable.

Re: Hole diameter being only 16ft. Despite the whole "45ft high" statement (Which is just the tip top of the tail) the actual fuselage diameter (The only part with enough mass to actually penetrate a brick trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro house, cause it aint the floppy wings) is under 13ft in diameter from a little googling. Seems about right, 757 isn't THAT big.

17:40 mark or thereabouts. No Debris, no wings, no wheels, no seats, no nothing. Well, you wouldn't see any seats because thats in the fuselage and woulda went in the hole. You wouldn't see any wheels for the same reason. Or luggage. But as the guy is saying there is no debris if you stop the video at the 17:41 mark and look over the onlookers left shoulder, that looks like chunks of wing paneling to me...

18:28 mark, 6-7 guys standing around just above the cop car talking and looking at the fire while probably 2 guys actually in the truck spray the foam :lol:

19:15 Re Height of the Boeing 757 is 45ft 6inches. Thats for the very top of the tail section ONLY. The very LAST part to touch the building and probably the flimsy and chintziest of all. Do your research as to what the actual height of the fuselage is. I aint never been into or seen a terminal at the airport 45ft up off the ground. Total twist of the facts. And even if it did hit, they are focusing on the top 3 floors. That would be above the 45ft height of the tail anyways.

20:44 Mark, Look at the gigantic assed black smoldering mark on the side of the building. The Pentagon is what, like 75ft high? Maybe thats where some of all that fuel ended up?

23:00 mark re impact simulation. This thing was done by a bunch of engineers? You've got to be shitting me. Theres no way the wings would have made it in as far as what their showing. Thers no consideration for a flat frontal impact, if you watch it they only simulate damage as they hit the support columns. Steel is strong and all, but the concrete around those steel support isn't exactly hot butter to flow through. I really question what the original intent and use of that video was, if a simulation of the plane hitting the pentagon is even what it was intended to be used for. Waay too many flaws in it that even an uneducated guy like me can spot in just a few seconds. Then he says it took out 50 support columns, do you see any support columns missing. Well, no, but if you watch the simulation (Not that I'm really willing to trust it) but you'll notice that the first few it shows the plane hitting actually split the fuselage like a ribbon, and they stay in place around the 23:27 mark. So his own video is disproving what he is saying, while he is saying it...

And then shows the animation of the wings breaking off, which makes sense to me, and I think there are photos of some wreckage, like i mentioned above. But I also don't think there would been very much I mean again, your litterally shooting a beer can into a concrete block wall at several hundred miles per hour...its going to shread itself. Like, heres a picture: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/pentagon/pentagon-engine1.jpg

25:53 757 engines 9ft in diameter, That seems like a big stretch to me My shop door is 14ft high. Again, I've flown in 757's and looked out the window at the engines, I think there'd be a lot more than 5ft left above one if you put it in my shop door.

26:12, haha, yes, right there, the Turbofan is approximately 7ft in diameter. The largest exterior part of the engine other than the sheet metal skin is 7ft across. That sounds a lot more probable.


26:36, no, its not a rotor from a 757. Its another part of the jet engine. Its a compressor disc from a 757, http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/pentagon/rb211-comparison.jpg and also: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/pentagon/jt8d.jpg For all the guys from Rolls Royce that said thats not aaprt of any plane they know of, I found a part in 30 seconds of googling that matches the shape, size, and probability for a compressor disc.

27:51, Found another NLP anchor, his hand gestures again, horizontal hand cuts as he is talking about the obsfucation of information that they might be guilty.



I'm gonna stop there for tonight, but I'm glad you guys got me to watch these. I've heard all the rumors all the years and theories and ideas but I'd never taken the time to actually listen to them and watch them and think about them. So far this has totally removed all doubt in my mind that anything but a plane hit the pentagon :)

[fabiodriven]

Good show William! ;)

[FourtyCaliber]

"The buildings that fell on 9/11 were destroyed through controlled demolition. This is fact. Explosions were heard that day and that was discussed extensively for about the first week or so after 9/11. For some reason though, it's not been discussed thoroughly for quite some time now and it has almost been forgotten about, just like they want. Just forget about those explosions, they didn't happen. Even though there is video evidence, eye witness accounts from people who were on the scene, and irrefutable scientific evidence of thermite within the rubble of the fallen tower. Thermite, ladies and gentlemen. If you don't know what thermite is, have a peek- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite It is used to penetrate armor or cut through metal. The towers that fell that day were constructed of steel beams. Steel beams that COULD NOT have been damaged enough by a commercial airliner and the fuel it carried aboard. The fuel that was carried aboard those planes WAS NOT enough fuel to cause the demise of those towers. This is fact."

I agree with a LOT of what you said. However, what you state here is completely contrary to your earlier assertion that what you are presenting is opinion and not fact. What you state here is NOT fact. You have seen television shows, watched videos, listened to other people's OPINIONS supporting this premise, etc, etc, etc. Their views of this apparently agree with your views of this. Or, their views of this have convinced you that these views are indeed true (in your mind). This does NOT make these assertions presentable and argued as fact. For every theory you see like this, there is a contrary, conflicting theory to discredit it. There are always going to be conspiracy theorists who question anything that has happened or what mankind has done. Many people choose to fall for that or believe one thing over another. That will never change.

For every presentation that I have viewed or read on this matter, I have seen another expert who has presented facts supporting the premise that indeed an airliner loaded with jet fuel could have indeed cause the destruction of a building in the exact way that the towers were destroyed.

This is America and you are free to think as you wish and believe whatever you want. You are NOT entitled to present your beliefs as fact. You ARE entitled to state you beliefs and support those beliefs with evidence that YOU BELIEVE to be true. In the end it is still belief, not fact. It is your opinion.

Maybe things happened like you believe. Maybe they didn't. We probably will never know.

We never walked on the moon. We never landed a rover on Mars. We never were able to view microscopic atoms and the electrons, protons, and neutrons they contain. Is everything a conspiracy? Is everyone out to get you? Can they read your mind? Are you really you? Are your thoughts yours? Are you the only honest person there is?

I asked the last question because I wonder what you think about how hard it is to keep a secret? Pretty much everyone would have to be dishonest in order to pull off something like that. You're better off playing the odds. Odds are, that's not the case.

[fabiodriven]

I do appreciate your point of view regarding my usage of the word "fact" and you are right about that. I was pretty riled up about what I was writing when I wrote it.

I'm taking a step back and looking at myself and I'm thinking I may be turning into one of those crazy old vets we all see. Hey, it happens.

[Billy Golightly]

Good show William! ;)


I really did watch these with an open mind, but I watched them with the video playing in one window and I was stopping and thinking/fact checking in the other one. A lot of the statements taken at face value (Yes, a 757 is 45ft high and the hole in the pentagon was about 16ft high) Support alternative theories. But when you learn that the fuselage of the 757 is about 13ft and realize that is where the majority of the impact force was coming from, it makes more sense. I'm not saying the guy deliberately twisted the facts to support some cause or agenda, just that a lot of stuff is not as clearly or accurately explained as it could be.

The NLP stuff is totally 100% intentionally trying to "mind control" you though :)

[Scootertrash]

First and foremost, I believe this is America, and you are free to think what you wish. I do know that whenever something like this happens a lot of so called experts seem to come out of the woodwork. I also know that everyone that day, EVERYONE was under a huge amount of stress, confusion, and chaos. Police, firefighters, news reporters and regular citizens. This was an event that no one in this country had experienced before. While some may have trained for a possible event such as this, training and the actual event are VERY different. There is no way you can train for all of the potential things that can happen with an event like this. Two buildings were hit by commercial jetliners with thousands of gallons of fuel, flying at high rates of speed. Those buildings are not designed to absorb that kind of impact. There is no way anyone can predict how the buildings will react. Even in the future there will only be WAG (Wild Ass Guesses) if this happens again. No two events will ever be the same

OK. A few random thoughts and comments from others on another board that was discussing the same topic. Including one individual who is a firefighter and was there.
None of these comments are meant to piss anyone off. There are a couple of funny ones, a few very good points, and one person pissed because some Americans actually would believe their government would do this to thousands of their own people to lay the blame on someone else, instead of accepting the fact that there are others out there who hate our country enough to do something like this, particularly those with a history of attacks on Americans, along with a previously failed attempt on the same building.:


I didn't wake up with a boner that day. I knew something was terribly wrong when that happened.

This quote is from the Firefighter:
I neither heard nor saw any explosions in 7WT.

Back to quotes from others:


I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theory that requires government competence as a prerequisite


So how exactly did the evil Government get Al Qaeda to take credit for the attacks?
Did the conversation go something like this:
"We need you guys to do us a favor and take the blame for us, in return we are going to kill you and everyone you know. Deal?"


It was obviously filmed in the same studio as the moon landings.


And then you have the spinoff of this where certain people will say that Bush was the diabolical mastermind behind every ill in the world, and yet they were surprised that he could eat a bowl of cereal without drowning in it. Can't have it both ways, but they try.



Our Government can't keep a blow job secret when there were only two people in the room. Multiply that by thousands and tell me how they can all of the sudden be a frigging master of secrecy.


I will say... it's awfully odd that at the beginning of every major war... something pulls us into it. (my comment to this is "No S**T Sherlock"!)


In the name of political correctness and not offending anyone the government stacked the deck with incompetent mouthbreathers in positions of national defense and federal law enforcement and made it a cake walk for a bunch of terrorists to train in plain sight on American soil and then carry out an attack.


The truther movement started on 9/12/2001 by radical islamic mullahs attempting to deflect the blame from the muslim radicals that did it, to the US Government. It is shocking how many of y'all fall for that.


Here's another real simple argument: Americans are GOOD people. Go outside and try to find me a few hundred or so that would be interested in killing tens of thousands of their fellow citizens. Let me know when you find them.



Conspiracy Theory: The belief that a government that f***s up everything it touches, and that a government that can't keep a frigging blow job secret, is simultaneously capable of incredible sophistication, in keeping hundreds if not thousands of co-conspirators quiet.


No we are f****ing pissed that people try to deflect the blame from the murder of 3000 people from the c*******ers who did it, onto our government. Essentially saying we did it to ourselves. That is bullshit and a slap in the face to every American who volunteered to serve this country and go to those shitholes overseas and spend months away from their families to fight terrorists since that time.

Popular Mechanics debunks the conspiracy theories:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842

Debunking WTC7:
http://www.debunking911.com/WTC7.htm

And I can't leave out a you tube vid debunking the pentagon hit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8

[atc007]

Must be a Fla thing?? lol,,We'll all believe what we want I guess. I haven't had any time to dig through all of this. Little busy this week. What I have seen,I know what side I'm on.

[Billy Golightly]

Just read some of the points I make (And watch the video at the time frames I mention too) with the same open mind you did originally. Thats all ya can do!

[Slingblade]

I watched the videos last week, and while I didn't take notes and certainly didn't notice the hand gestures and such like the much brighter Mr. Golightly, I came away with alot of the same views.

It's super obvious some of those eyewitness accounts were cut mid-sentence, Right after the words that the editor wanted you to hear. Taken out of context, maybe??

And the clip about the pentagon where the guy is drilling the poor old taxi driver about Exactly where he was and which light pole fell on his car. (They claim the broken light poles were staged. ?) I felt a strong urge to hit that punk in the mouth. And then they brake out the charts with all the witnesses accounts of the flight pattern of the plane. You know- The one they say was never there- And everybody's was a little different, Ya think? I've been in the woods with two guys and watch a deer run off and we couldn't agree on exactly where it went, and we had reference points.

I could go on but I'll sum it up like this,

Do I trust the Government of these United States?, HAAAIL No! And I also won't give them credit for pulling this off and keeping it secret. (Note Blowjob reference above, pretty much sums it up)
Do I trust all these eyewitness accounts? These people that were no doubt still in shock and disbelief over what they had witnessed, Sorry, but no.
Do I trust this guy in the Mr. Rogers sweater that I feel is trying to insert these thoughts in my head?, He don't even look trustworthy. No.

I have adopted a new creed. It's not a quote from our fore-fathers, the Bible, or some great literary work. It's not even grammatically correct.

I saw it a couple of months ago somewhere in Georgia. It was created in airbrush and attached to the front bumper of a mid-80's Monte Carlo, It simply stated,

DON'T TRUST NOBODY!

That is All

[aldochina]

enjoy it or not!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts2FoxHaHCk
i think it sums it up! recorded in 89, but truer today than ever!!

ive read and watched every link posted! all good stuff, tough to digest! I so much want to jump on the conspiracy wagon, because i'm so pissed to be a middle class white american with this rediculous political machine!! Sure am glad to see some of the "theory" debunked though!! God help us regaurdless!

anyone else wish they were living in the 1920's!

PLEASE if you click the link turn it up LOUD!! thats how it should be absorbed!
sorry couldnt find a vid!

[DasUberKraut]

I agree completely fabio. Thank you for posting this. :beer

[ama009]

Awesome post Fabio! I had seen these videos before and had made up my mind. It is not that other countries or governments are more corrupt, the issue is that the American government is better at covering it all up! Lately they have become desperate, they have slipped up, and people are getting smarter! I did not used to think this way. On 9/11 I wanted to leave my dorm room, enlist, and go kick some trailprotrailprotrailpro!! But I was naive then. Now, I see things differently.

[Mosh]

I did not read this whole thread. I made it to about page 5, and may go back and reread it. But I do not need to watch anymore videos or read anymore books about 9-11 being an inside job or planned attack.
It was..I said so from about 3 months after the event..Even on here somewhere I said that about 5 years ago and I believe I got berated for stating such a controverisal post at the time.

The question is why was it planned and who was involved..

Well, number 1...Govt control..At the time it was a perfect reason to implement the "patriot act"..Well many of us know what that is..A pre plan to a military police state, society. 9-11 was a perfect scapegoat for a "new rule".. I am sure we are gonna see a rash of new gun laws implemented here shortly over that Colorado movie theater shoot-up, which I believe was some stool pigeon set-up by a governing body to underline and push a further agenda..More Gun control..If you don't believe that they may eventually take our guns away, you better think again.

Number 2...Money..wheter people want to believe it or not, our governments' control basically stops at pushing its little nation of people around..Us..However, our government is controlled by world corporations, and banks hell bent on greed and financial gain..When governments are at war spending 10 billion a day, someone is making interest off that money..And it ain't us, and it sure as hell ain't our government.

Also world corporation and banking systems have implemented every plan to financially weaken and subdue the USA's power. They have been instrumental in setting up operations over-seas, for hard goods manufacturing, and instrumental in pulling our very own manufacturing tools and equipment right out from under us..The scary thing is, during all major wars we have been involved in, if we fell short on supplies, it took a matter of hours to convert an in house private facility like GM, FORD, Boeing, or C.A.T. factorys, to convert and ramp up war time materials like plane parts and bombs and tanks..Now most of those, presses, stamping machines, hard resource materials, have been torn down, and sold to China, Brazil and all other countries across the pond..Compound that with the Governments new "teaching curriculum" in our school systems, basically leaves us with no new generations of kids, even knowing what craftsmanship, skilled trades, or building things even is anymore..Dare I say now, that if we were to become involved with a major long drawn out war, We would have no resources or abilities, to sustain our hardcore millitary materials, nor not enough people that would know how to build or produce them..And I am sure those overseas countries will just be so willing to help us..LOL if you can read the sarcasm there.

[Dirtcrasher]

Just a 5 minute video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOwTTieqiHE

[atc007]

I still haven't had a chance to sort through any of Billy's post,but WILL ,,and WANT too ! My Brother had surgery today ,so I'm playing nurse to 3 full time now,and my Son and D in law are moving back here,To live in My Mom and Dads home!!! Yes ! So,,no time here for awhile.. I will DEF need explained to me the close ups of the planes,,,VERY clearly without windows and with a huge payload strapped to the bottom. Also the explosions/ detonations going off Inside the buildings,BEFORE/ AS BOTH Military planes are hitting the buildings. And obviously,I will DEFENITELY need the pentagon " hole" explained,,as to HOW PAPERS,wooden desks,computer monitors,folders etc,,, sit there ,,CLEAN,unburnt/unsinged . KEEP in mind now,,all of you explaining this away,,lol,,friendly here : ) THE SAME jet fuel ,,DROPPED NOT 1!,NOT 2, But THREE World trade towers to the GROUND, In a PERFECT STRAIGHT DEMOLITION// err,, I mean DROP. YET,,didn't BROWN A PAPER where the Pentagon jet Burnt,,oh,,and there was no fire in the lawn, So the fuel" went in " with it . I await. I'm not being smart here,,lol,, I am serious. As I can't get my head around ANY of WHAT I have seen..

[atc007]

Just a 5 minute video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOwTTieqiHE

Damn Steve. From where I sit,,I'd say that really sums things up.

[250rs-neva-die]

I agree 100%. I didnt get a chance to read the entire thread but what about the insurance policy the owner took out about a month before this happened. what about the 1 billion dollars that was being stored in the basement of the towers and when they finally got down there there was only 200 million left and trucks loaded with money ready to drive out of the tunnels but were deserted becuase the people had to have known the towers were about to be blown down. Definately was a government job which made alot of scumbags rich. Can only imagine what other coverups the govt does on a day to day basis. Makes me sick just thinking about it.

[Billy Golightly]

I still haven't had a chance to sort through any of Billy's post,but WILL ,,and WANT too ! My Brother had surgery today ,so I'm playing nurse to 3 full time now,and my Son and D in law are moving back here,To live in My Mom and Dads home!!! Yes ! So,,no time here for awhile.. I will DEF need explained to me the close ups of the planes,,,VERY clearly without windows and with a huge payload strapped to the bottom. Also the explosions/ detonations going off Inside the buildings,BEFORE/ AS BOTH Military planes are hitting the buildings. And obviously,I will DEFENITELY need the pentagon " hole" explained,,as to HOW PAPERS,wooden desks,computer monitors,folders etc,,, sit there ,,CLEAN,unburnt/unsinged . KEEP in mind now,,all of you explaining this away,,lol,,friendly here : ) THE SAME jet fuel ,,DROPPED NOT 1!,NOT 2, But THREE World trade towers to the GROUND, In a PERFECT STRAIGHT DEMOLITION// err,, I mean DROP. YET,,didn't BROWN A PAPER where the Pentagon jet Burnt,,oh,,and there was no fire in the lawn, So the fuel" went in " with it . I await. I'm not being smart here,,lol,, I am serious. As I can't get my head around ANY of WHAT I have seen..

Most of that is answered in my post from what I understand and gathered.

[fabiodriven]

Just a 5 minute video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOwTTieqiHE

I would like to thank Steve for posting this and I must say that this video, although taking this whole thing in a rather comical light, really sums things up for me. I do find this entire scenario quite comical in the sense that everyone just takes everything the government says as fact even though they do nothing but lie constantly.

In the video Steve posted, they refer to anyone who thinks the way I do as a "baby killing, puppy hater" or something along those lines. Although it is said in a sarcastic sense, obviously intentionally, this is the perception people who share my view are subjected to.

I have gotten more than one PM from people on here (no names) that have a lot to say to me behind closed doors but choose to say nothing in this thread for anyone else to see.


Id like to see you go to everyone of the family that lost someone that day and tell them all these foolish lies. everyone of your movies have been debunked. and all your post are just basically quotes from the movies. stop wasting your time trying to convince everyone about something that just isn't true. you sir deserve a punch in the face good day.

This fine piece of literature by russ was titled "go away with you bullshit"-


you should be ashamed to call yourself a American.

This is an example of what I get. I am a disabled veteran that has given more to this country than that man probably ever will, assuming he's never served. I've seen what I've seen and given my interpretation of what is going on in our troubled country. It is my right to express how I feel about this just as it's the right of everyone else who has posted in disagreement with me. I have not attacked their ideas or tried to steer anyone to do anything other than form their own thoughts.

In his PM, "russ" is telling me that the people who have lost friends and family on 9/11 would be upset with me if they knew how I feel. The truth of the matter is that the families who have lost people on that day are amongst the loudest of the outcries against the "accepted explanation" of the 9/11 attacks.

I use russ's crude words and sub-par grammar as indications of how well educated he is on anything, never mind the things that happened on 9/11.

[Slingblade]

Fabio, While I posted my feelings on the videos and I happen not to agree with your theory, I do thank you for the post and in some ways I will stand with you.

I did alot of searching after watching the vids and saw a few articles and even videos where the family members of the victims were asking, in fact begging for explanations and getting nothing.

While I could never put myself in their place I'm pretty sure where my questions and anger would be directed. After all, at least some of the hijackers were trained at American Military facilities.

In a country that spends 4-700 BILLION $ on defense and we train the clowns at our own facilities, Are you serious?? The intelligence groups were asleep on that one.

I will never discount the idea that insiders were involved. Anyone that doesn't question corruption on every level of government in this country is naive and needs to wake up.

There is some very good info in this thread, no matter where you stand on the theory. I truly believe there are rivers of dirty money running to and from D.C.

I know a person (indirectly) who has become a MULTI millionaire in the last decade SOLELY from defense contracts, And he never produced a thing. That's all I'll say about that, it makes me a little uncomfortable there.

But I publicly Thank You, Fabio. For your service to our country, and for this thread. Even if I don't agree on all points, you made me educate myself in a few ways. Which we all should do.

[fabiodriven]

Very well said Slingblade, and thank you very much.

[Fox250R]

http://nation.foxnews.com/russia/2012/08/14/russian-attack-submarine-sailed-gulf-mexico-undetected-weeks?intcmp=fly

Sure hope this isnt true cause if it is, NAVY = FAIL :)

[atc007]

I guess my question is,,pardon my ignorance again please. If it went UNDETECTED,,and THEY told us afterwards,,HOW do we know it was really there?? How was it brought to light that they were there?,,IF,,and I say <<IF,,This is TRUE. This is not good. Hell,I thought my sons Iphone would have known they were there,,too mention our Armed Services.

[300rman]

http://static.themetapicture.com/media/funny-Johnny-Bravo-Twin-Towers-911.jpg

[clmeue37]

Ok here goes...

I just read this entire thread and realize that cover-ups and inside jobs MOST LIKELY have occurred for years and continue to take place in our country and governing system. I did not watch any of the videos/clips, or checkout any links that either credit or discredit any suspicious occurences in our country/government. I also refuse to watch the news or read the bigger papers. I read the local newspapers because there is genuine GOOD stuff going on in my community, and I feel it is very important to have a sense of community because it is often times the only strong aspect of this country.

I no longer vote for anything but local propositions (school/community) and school board members...I have always been told that if I don't like any of the presidential candidates to do my research and vote for the lesser of the evils. I refuse to do that. You will never hear me complain about any of our country's leaders simply because I didn't choose them. There is no republican or democrat candidate that has not been "bought" to further someone elses heinous, often sickening agenda. I could vote outside the parties but what effect would it have? Who's to say they won't be bought as well. The United States government lost sight of how the founding fathers intended the constitution to be used and interpreted long, long ago. It is used now to further their "power-trips" and at many times is completely disregarded in our daily lives.

The bill of rights? Tell me that hasn't been twisted, manipulated, and interpreted by our government to give them more power instead of protecting the rights of the United States citizens. THOSE ARE OUR RIGHTS and they are being taken away, limited, and controlled at an alarming rate. I firmly believe that once given power, man wants more and more and more power, to the point where they have total and absolute control over everything. This control goes far beyond the government, in that many businesses and corporations and organizations have a lot of "pull" in how this country is run.

Can anyone explain to me why our state governments now tell us we have to wear our seat belts when driving? I believe it boils down to greed and control and nothing else. My belief is that the good Lord will keep me safe and if He decides it's my time to leave this earth so be it. (Keep in mind this is only my belief) But our all powerful government has decided that it is dangerous for us to go without it? That's crap. Skydiving is dangerous and I've done that just the same as I've driven without a seatbelt and our government hasn't banned jumping out of a plane at thousands of feet.

On the topic of what the government decides what is or is not "good" for us, I have never liked the idea of taking any medications. For example: I had my wisdom teeth removed when I was 15 years old, all 4 on the same day, and it hurt like hell. I was prescribed a bottle of vicodin, 20 pills/bottle, with a refill for another 20 pills. I took one that first night and 22 hours later I finally woke up in a puddle of drool lol. I remember feeling so out of it and confused for awhile before it finally knocked me out. Even at 15 I knew that wasn't normal and since then I have not taken one single pain-killer. I believe they are intended to numb us and give us a false sense of relief to the point we become addicted to them. We have been dumbed down as a people by our government and this is just one method they are using.

I guess what this boils down to is that it is plain to see that this country is headed for trouble just as the title of this thread states. It doesn't take a genius to see past all the lies we've been told...many choose to trust what our leaders tell us. It would do me no good or harm to read all of the conspiracy(for lack of a better word) theories. I see it everyday, almost everywhere, just how bad of shape this country is in and I can only imagine how bad it is yet to become. I don't know if there is anything we can do about it at this point in time. This stuff has always made me uneasy and even moreso now that I have a son. Look at what is being created to "give" to the next generation. God only knows how bad it may get...

I for one won't be giving up my constitutional right to keep and bear arms without a fight, and I hope many of you feel the same. The day I lose that right or the rights to have the occasional brew and chew, a good trail ride, a wife who stands by me, and a suitable place to raise my son...let's just say there's enough people who feel the same way I do and it probably won't be pretty....

By the people, for the people? Not at this rate.

[atc007]

Certainly couldn't have said it better myself. ... Thank you.

[clmeue37]

I agree with fabio and what he originally posted.

I don't necessarily disagree with all of his critics either. All I have to say to them is: ignore the obvious at your own peril.

[300rman]

Awesome sound clip from Paul Harvey, listen to it guys. its only a couple minutes, and it is chillingly correct.



http://www.youtube.com/embed/H3Az0okaHig?rel=0

[Scootertrash]

Nice post 300rman. Now which political party supports ALL the ideas that Mr. Harvey just spoke about.

[fabiodriven]

That was fantastic 300rman. Thank you very much for posting it.

[fabiodriven]

Open your eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7L8bw5QF4&feature=share

[Tri-Z 250]

^^^
Makes me want to buy more ammo...but in all honesty, I knew it was the Fed all along. Lurking men in black suites and cheap sunglasses. These are some trying times and conditions do make for upriasing...but as long as welfare and assistance keep the majorty that need it some what happy. I think you won't see much in the way of militant small arms group efforts...Other than radicals who are here now and are deeply seeded in their convictions. If not for anything give to your local foodbank, or homeless shelter...only if you can afford not to keep the can in your storage bunker.

[atc007]

Awesome sound clip from Paul Harvey, listen to it guys. its only a couple minutes, and it is chillingly correct.



http://www.youtube.com/embed/H3Az0okaHig?rel=0

Wow. Great post 300. I personally Loved Paul Harvey. For many reasons,,It comes as no surprise to me a man who's been dead and gone How many years,predicted what we're seeing today. He was a gem. And since this is a 3w site. He was always on the radio at 12;30 up here WILQ,,always worked out ,,just as we'd left the Honda dealer and made our way to Mcdonalds,,Paul would be on the radio,,,with,,,,,The rest of the story. Good times,,long gone unfortunately..

[fabiodriven]

A couple of months ago a friend of mine posted a video that had to do with 9/11. It's a very short video by what appears to be a regular Joe. His "experiment" supposedly debunks the "myth" that the jet fuel in the planes that hit the Twin Towers could not support a fire hot enough to melt steel. In this experiment, all he manages to do is show his qualification for conducting said experiment, which is zero. It has been claimed that "jet fuel" (kerosene really) burns at around 1500 degrees Fahrenheit which is not nearly hot enough to melt steel, which melts at around 2500 degrees Fahrenheit. In this man's experiment he heats a piece of steel up to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit and then proceeds to bend it. In his mind heating a piece of steel to 1800 degrees proves that steel heated to 1500 degrees can fail. That 300 degrees of difference far exceeds the parameters for this experiment, as nobody has ever claimed that the steel in the buildings was heated to 1800 degrees. So he heated the steel to a temperature that would "prove his point"? I'll ask you all if you could now to view this from a standpoint of honesty, accuracy, and with regard to the laws of physics. This man has created his his point ahead of time and then altered the "experiment" to produce the results he desires. Now, the entire point of an experiment is to gather facts, to show proof. If in the process of your experiment you alter the parameters in order to manufacture a desired result, you are missing the whole point of conducting an experiment. This man's point is completely moot as he has only served to prove himself wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzF1KySHmUA Not only that but it does nothing to address the molten metal that was at ground zero far after the towers collapsed.

Last night I had someone ask me about this thread which in turn caused me to revisit it. I have re-read some of it, not the entire thing yet, but I did read my first post. Many times when I read my words from the past I chuckle and wonder what I was thinking. This would not be one of those cases. As time has passed this wound has not healed and that is because it is all a lie. Many of you who see me post on here may think I'm crazy and that's fine. If you really know me in person you know that's true, however there are three values that I have always clung to that are embedded in me and only serve to strengthen as I age. Those three values would be honesty, the pursuit of truth, and knowing right from wrong. I don't aim to poke my nose in things because I'm bored and I don't dislike the government just for grins, but whenever there is an untruth I find myself compelled to get facts. Facts are what it's all about. I like things that I can see and that have been proven regardless of what others might find as "impossible" or just too crazy to be true. There are many things out there we don't yet understand and to me it's clear as day the perception we're programmed to have of how this universe works. Perceptions that are thrust so strongly on us that we'll ignore sights our very own eyes can see, either in flesh or in reputable photography. So FACTS... Facts are the answer to every question. In the videos I already posted there is a ton of good information, but those videos are aging a bit now. As time passes and knowledge continues to be gathered there are more things to learn and there are new FACTS. In the most recent documentary I watched I learned a lot of FACTS, more facts than I would attempt to list out here. If you're interested you can watch the video yourself, I'll post a link at the end.

What I have found is that some facts lead you not only to an answer, but sometimes a new question. There is one fact, one very big FACT that I will share right now which will bring your next thoughts, which will most likely be questions.

It is clearly obvious that both thermite and shape charges were used to compromise the steel beams in the twin towers. There is photographic evidence of both and traces of thermite were found after the fact. The site tested positive for thermite, which is not surprising as it could be seen flowing from the side of the one of the towers while it was still standing. Very blatantly obvious that both substances were used. If you disagree with me that is fine but I'd like to know what facts prove anything different? I'd like to know why you can see steel beams cut at an angle by shape charges and why there was thermite on the scene, because those are both facts and not arguable.

At this point I could get on a roll and explain the cascade effect of FACTS that show how obvious this controlled demolition was. I could go on and on because as I said, many facts lead to questions, which lead to new facts, which lead to more questions, which leads to more FACTS. I realize many of you are busy talking about Trump and refugees which is fine, that's what you're all supposed to be talking about, and here's Fabio's crazy 'ol kook arse still hung up on this old news. Yes, this is old news, this is very old news, but that doesn't make it any more right. If you could imagine for a moment that you truly believed that the powers that be would ever pull an atrocity off such as this, of this magnitude, right in front of the eyes of the entire planet, if you could imagine how you would view those in charge from that point, you can see what I see. Say hypothetically that Uncle Sam came out tomorrow and made an announcement and admitted they blew up the towers and killed all those people and brought war on the entire planet, if they told you that on your TV would you then believe it? The difference between those who don't believe and myself is that I don't need it admitted to me in order for it to have taken place. Their admission is not needed, they are guilty from what I can see. The next question is, who are "they"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKUTChb5Hvk

[atc007]

Some of us realize what happened that day,and there really isn't a damn thing we can do but tuck it away and realize exactly how large it really is. While other extremely intelligent people will watch the molten steel flowing out the side of the towers before they fell, the perfectly sheared main beams,all the "war games" that were in play that day, the power being out in the towers,A pile of steel and concrete that was still ON FIRE NINE weeks later!!!!!!! etc,etc,etc, and tell us we are the crazy ones...Ok. I'm sure I have posted before. I was watching live 9/11,,,5;30 ish pm. When they said they "pulled 7". I looked at Dad,,,that building would take the better part of a year to pull??? They just went in that afternoon and folded that bad boy into it's basement?? Wow, cool story. Is what it is Fabs.Let them all laugh. One of the candidates running for pres,eluded very lightly to this last fall and grabbed my vote. Someone fairly familiar with high rise buildings,not known for being quiet,and lives in this neighborhood. But has since went tight lipped,as he should. Damn good thing jeb never got his legs under him, it could have gotten very,very ugly... I'm afraid the question of the bushes alarm systems being installed for years may have came into play.We're all just nuts :)

[El Camexican]

First of all John, it’s great to see you back on here! I hope it becomes a regular thing again, this place needs you buddy!

As in the past I still have to agree to disagree with you (and others) on this one. Until someone gets up the ambition to build a skyscraper, buy a commercial airliner and fly it into the building to show us different results I’m sticking with the terrorist theory.

As far as heat and melting steel goes I believe magnesium is used in commercial aircraft and they are also loaded with lithium ion batteries. Magnesium ignites at a low temperature but burns at well over 5,000F. Something to consider.

As far as who could actually pull something like this off AND get away with it AND convince Bin Laden to take the fall, these guys are the only ones that come to mind.
227155227156227157

Sorry, to make light, I just gotta be me.

[fabiodriven]

Niko there is no need to recreate the event, the first one is very well documented.

Can you tell me why there is thermite on the scene (that's fact) and what sheared solid steel upright columns? It is also fact that the fuel was not able to cause these things to happen, that's inarguable and has been proven. Also, the company that supplied the steel for the buildings conducted tests in an actual steel framed structure where they intentionally built fires hotter than the fires of 9/11 and loaded the building with twice the load the WTC buildings were under. The steel deformed as expected but was nowhere near catastrophic failure. I want you to explain to me why there was molten metal on the scene Niko. How can you believe the explanations that are given when actual scientific proof is glaring you in the face to tell you otherwise?

People are beginning to muster, people with credentials. It's not just us looney birds anymore Bill. Niko I will thank you again for watching the videos initially posted, however the videos most currently posted have a lot of updated information and a lot of experts speaking up. This farce can not continue forever.

http://youtu.be/xqqelDq4P48

[El Camexican]

Niko there is no need to recreate the event, the first one is very well documented.

Can you tell me why there is thermite on the scene (that's fact) and what sheared solid steel upright columns? It is also fact that the fuel was not able to cause these things to happen, that's inarguable and has been proven. Also, the company that supplied the steel for the buildings conducted tests in an actual steel framed structure where they intentionally built fires hotter than the fires of 9/11 and loaded the building with twice the load the WTC buildings were under. The steel deformed as expected but was nowhere near catastrophic failure. I want you to explain to me why there was molten metal on the scene Niko. How can you believe the explanations that are given when actual scientific proof is glaring you in the face to tell you otherwise?

People are beginning to muster, people with credentials. It's not just us looney birds anymore Bill. Niko I will thank you again for watching the videos initially posted, however the videos most currently posted have a lot of updated information and a lot of experts speaking up. This farce can not continue forever.

http://youtu.be/xqqelDq4P48

Sadly I can't explain away any of those things with authority. I've watched the videos, I've watched documentaries both for and against the conspiracy theories and I could even believe in them if I was not so convinced that a cover-up of this scope is not possible.

That's where it ends for me, the rest is over my head, so I chose to believe in what I do know, which is that you can't convince hundreds of Americans to kill thousands of Americans covertly in such a short period of time and keep a lid on it. If I'm wrong and it is one day proven that your government knew of this and let it happen, or made it happen then may they all burn in hell.

Sorry buddy, that's all I've got.

[fabiodriven]

Yes, obviously you're free to believe. If it interests you at some point they actually address that very concern about how this could possibly be covered up in the most recent link I posted. I value your point of view greatly my friend.

[fabiodriven]

http://youtu.be/y5UyynjxAyw

[83ATC185]

We watched a local 15 story apartment building demolition a couple years back, there was a crowd(small town, nothing to do) and as soon as it went down, i looked at my girlfriend and said, "tell me that's not what the world trade center looked like as it fell". Funny, there where 50 people in very close proximity that had to have heard what i said. I practically yelled it over the demolition. And not one of them came to me and disagreed.

Good information in this thread. You have to ask yourself why nobody seemed interested in investigating it very far, no private companies, no individuals, it was just taken for granted that some planes hit these buildings in the same general area on each one, both burned for a little while, then both fell the exact same way.

[fabiodriven]

This belongs here- https://www.infowars.com/cia-killed-phillip-marshall-for-leaking-911-secrets-dr-kevin-barrett/

[fabiodriven]

Is he still hung up on this 9/11 crap? Yes, yes I am. 9/11/01 was a day that will live in infamy for reasons I know I don't have to explain. Thousands of innocent lives were taken on that fateful day and countless lives have ended or been effected since then. That was the day when American citizens gave their government permission to invade the rest of the planet and surrendered all privacy and many rights in the name of being "kept safe". I will study this subject until the truth is revealed or indefinitely if that day never comes during my lifetime.

To keep this thread up to date, I will be posting a documentary I just watched in regards to the destruction of the Twin Towers as well as the correlating structures which were destroyed. Previously in this thread, the subject of thermite had been discussed and it's use in the destruction of the towers supposedly very likely or even "proven". The way it was presented to me, I thought it was most likely, especially with the proof thermite was used. The site tested positive for thermite, which seems like a smoking gun in my eyes. What I have just learned is thermite is comprised mostly of iron oxide powder (rust) and aluminum powder. Well, the Twin Towers were built with steel beams (which rusted over time) clad with aluminum. So "testing" for thermite is possible, but not really on a building which was comprised heavily of the two main ingredients.

With any good theory or investigation, the acquisition of facts over time allows said theory to evolve and change. Time has passed, new theories have formed, but one thing remains the same; physics. Now as time has passed, it seems as though the laws of Newtonian Physics have become bent and broken more and more often. With new and amazing technologies coming to light at such a rapid pace and such huge advances in the fields of quantum theory and quantum physics, sci-fi movies seem almost tame. If you're aware of what "free energy" is and if you have an inclination of the mind boggling technologies that exist that we're not supposed to be aware of, then the following video will make more sense. If have no idea what I'm talking about, the video will still make sense to you. It takes only an open mind and an eye or two to see what these people would like to present to you, which as usual is all fact based and scientifically proven.

The hardest part of this entire subject is just getting through that hard candy shell our society has been coated with. It is not my aim to "convert" people who don't see things my way, all I ask is that they see what is being shown to them and then form their own opinion. You cannot argue with scientific evidence and although Newtonian Physics seems like it can be challenged more and more frequently these days, that is actually not something that hampers this investigation. In this case it actually seems to bolster the point that there is foul play afoot here. When you've all been force fed this horse trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro about a guy in a cave and some bozos with box cutters enough, when they flash the words "terror", "terrorist", "attack", etc., enough across the screen, it will eventually stick and become what you "know". It is mind control in it's simplest and most effective form. It's so effective, in fact, that many of you will attack someone with my viewpoint in defense of your programming. That's programmed in as well.

If you're able to shut that off for an hour or so and just hard wire your eyeballs to your brain like they're supposed to be, cut out that middle man and fire up the 'ol noodle, let it do it's thing. It's been getting dusty. If you think for yourself and see for yourself and realize the atrocity that's been purported on us all as a global species, if you think about the repercussions that followed those events, the amount of lives lost and even more effected from this, if you look at the planet we live on now, how it's run, and the direction it's headed, this subject is just as important now as it ever has been.

Many times people will try to discredit those who make these videos. The thing is, with most of these videos, and definitely this one, you can feel free to discredit anyone you like in this production. Even though these people do have credentials and are exactly those whose theories should be taken seriously, that fact is irrelevant. If your eyeballs work and you can hear the explanations given, it's quite simple to come to your own conclusion. The difficult part for you is looking or thinking different than everyone else. Everyone had the little ribbons and flags on their cars, everyone "likes" the little posts on the Bookface about supporting the firefighters and all those who worked and died at ground zero, and it's clear how many people show their support. That part is unmistakable. The question is, who and what is it you're supporting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX37D0NGoEU&t=1021s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAQv4upffS8

[83ATC185]

All anyone's gotta do is watch the twin towers fall, and watch any controlled demolition in any part of the world. They are identical. And what are the chances of not one, but four airplanes being hijacked at the same time with no interference from anyone? And those hadjis knew how to fly the airplanes with good enough precision to hit each one of the twin towers in nearly the same spot? Only to have each building collapse in exactly the same way?

We deserve answers to questions like these. But there were seemingly no hearings, no open forums, not a damn thing except news anchors saying it was brown people with knives. And they knew that, they had faces and names of the hijackers, only I'm pretty sure hijackers don't introduce themselves."Hi, I'm Qadar Musilef I'll be your hijacker today"
The way it was presented, how every single channel that day, every last one of them was a rotating view of the smoking twin towers, yeah they knew they were both going to fall before they did and they wanted everyone to have a front row seat.

I've always said, there's no such thing as a terrorist. Only a scared population.

[fabiodriven]

The only three steel and concrete structures to collapse due to fire in the history of mankind and all three happened within 12 hours of each other. That's absolutely absurd. There is no such thing as coincidence.

[Dirtcrasher]

I just convinced my Dad to watch the longer video tonight after I crash. I was very vague about the clip. but he likes discovering corruption and fraud; So, he'll gives me thoughts tomorrow....

All fresh stuff I hadn't seen. So ( [:MANY:] TuBe Vidz on this subject. ) :) :] repeating and copy/edit the same conspiracy theories....

But, I had never seen this one and I tell ya, It's a good one!

[fabiodriven]

For those who are unaware, this is Barry Jennings, and this is his story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAv7XFk7kRk


There are many different variants of the B-707, some with lower max. takeoff weights & some with higher max. takeoff weights than the B-767-200ER. So, exactly which B-707 were the WTC's designed to withstand an impact from? Even if the WTC buildings were designed to handle a direct hit from a B-707, what speed was it assumed the B-707 would be going? Throughout history, several structures were supposedly designed to meet a certain standard, yet later on were determined (usually after failure), to have never met those standards, or could no longer meet those standards due to maintenance & upkeep practices.

These are architects and engineers speaking out in the video below about how they feel of the demolition of these buildings. They are experts in their field. If you have any questions regarding the the technicalities of these demolitions, they will most likely be answered here. These people know a lot more about the subject at hand than I do.


Just catching up here. I'll try and make as much sense as i can here, but forgive me if i jump around a bit. First, have you ever watched the replay of the "news" on the morning of 9/11? Reports of bombs going off in hotels, car bombs in times square, shooters in other airports, etc, etc. All untrue. All false, crowd sourced reports and misconstrued information rushed out to the public by a useless media looking to break a story. (at least theres that)

I told you I'd give you video proof of explosions long before the towers fell. You can see some here. If that's not enough, I can find more for you, or you can open your eyes and find them yourself, and please stop getting offended by that term. It's not meant to be offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg&t=193s

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171010/e12471b4bc98f1bee1b87a7418c350e7.png

[atc007]

Seems a mute point Fab. I just shake my head in utteral disbelief. :crazy:

[fabiodriven]

Lmfao, I hear ya Bill. I always say I'm going to stop caring about anyone else but then I get all revved up again.

[fabiodriven]

Don't take the time to watch this one either, it makes far too much sense. Everything is OK, I promise. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvAv-114bwM

[El Camexican]

Redsox , RIDE RED , Elcamexican and everyone else that believes the 911 commissions narrative .........whats the most important thing to you ? ........the money , the money , the money ........right ? .....don`t get offended .......stay focused .......Donald Rumsfeld one day before 911 says ........Hey America ! .......we`re missing 2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS of you`re hard earned taxes ........do ya think we need an audit ? .....ya think ya think ya think ? .........so the next day , the big day ! ......we send in the auditor's ........and then it just so happens ........The missile hits the Pentagon right where the offices were being AUDITED ! Thats why i say hey man nice shot ........good shot man ! .....i wish i would of met you .......now it`s a little late ......they stick it in your face and let you smell what they consider wrong .....Filter ! AAhhhh !........fogetaboutit .........it`s only gonna take another 20yrs. to pay it down .......no biggy .......pay your cell phone bill first !.....thats more important !

Actually I don't. Converted over a year or so back, just not as verbal about it as some. Probably because I don't understand the end game enough.

Short answer would be control, but would wealthy old men who have only a few years to life take such risks to ensure future generations will be chipped and stripped of liberty? Particularly in the only country on the planet with a constitution written to specifically prevent tyranny? If not for them, then who benefits?

As well, I still don't think the elected, or appointed government is competent enough to pull off such a large scale event. There's more at play than greed.

Less than 60 people died in Vegas and it's all America can talk about, but hundreds have been shot and killed in inner cities this year and each gets a few words in a local paper. Thousands die each year in car accidents and from booze and tobacco, but no one is going to war over that. The war on drugs? LOL!!!!!!!!

I don't know who or what is behind the seemingly staged events that are shaping the future, but I have no doubt there is a long game behind many of these events. Carry on.

[El Camexican]

Dude, I thing the Illuminati hacked your edit button, your post is gone!

[redsox]

Ooops. i started a new thread and I think it should go here. Didn't realize as I was not subscribed here. I can move it here, but it will take some time for me to read and digest 11 pages.

[redsox]

I thought that maybe some of you would want to continue discussing this, so I started this thread. I think its good stuff, and we can probably keep it pretty civil. There are very smart, like-minded people here with VERY different views. I think it'll make good debate.



John, the science (or lack thereof) in this guys "experiments" is laughable. What did he use for scale? Oh ya, thats right. He used whatever he had lying around his garage. Call the people over at the Nobel Prize commission, we have a new candidate. Thats would have been a D+ in my high school physics class, at best, and I went to a school that had a reputation for molestation, so you can guess the quality of their sciences.

I'll talk 9/11 if you want, but i do generally avoid it in conversation, much the same way that you described i the other thread. But i'll break my own rules here and discuss. My goal though, isn't really to rehash 9/11, but to point out the same general blueprint used to make everything bad into a "conspiracy." This vegas event is current, and a PRIME example of such. So much so that before there even was an "official story" the watchdogs were out yelling "COVERUP!"

So, lets stick with 9/11. But, instead of me defending every derived notion of match sticks and firecrackers, let me volley the ball back. Explain the ticket sales to the hijackers. Explain the video of them boarding the planes. Explain the flight school attendance. Explain the rental cars. Explain the calls home from people on the plane. Explain the videos and zillion eye witness accounts of the planes bashing into the buildings. Explain to me who exactly the people are that have been shooting back at our military for the past 15 years. Explain to me the bodies on the USS Cole. Explain to me Eyad Ismoil, and the 1993 bombing of the trade center. Is radical Islam a myth? Ask Jeff Bauman if he believes in radical Islam because he saw it on the news. Or Martin Richard's father.

(brought over from other thread, sorry)

[fabiodriven]

I thought that maybe some of you would want to continue discussing this, so I started this thread. I think its good stuff, and we can probably keep it pretty civil. There are very smart, like-minded people here with VERY different views. I think it'll make good debate.



John, the science (or lack thereof) in this guys "experiments" is laughable. What did he use for scale? Oh ya, thats right. He used whatever he had lying around his garage. Call the people over at the Nobel Prize commission, we have a new candidate. Thats would have been a D+ in my high school physics class, at best, and I went to a school that had a reputation for molestation, so you can guess the quality of their sciences.

I'll talk 9/11 if you want, but i do generally avoid it in conversation, much the same way that you described i the other thread. But i'll break my own rules here and discuss. My goal though, isn't really to rehash 9/11, but to point out the same general blueprint used to make everything bad into a "conspiracy." This vegas event is current, and a PRIME example of such. So much so that before there even was an "official story" the watchdogs were out yelling "COVERUP!"

So, lets stick with 9/11. But, instead of me defending every derived notion of match sticks and firecrackers, let me volley the ball back. Explain the ticket sales to the hijackers. Explain the video of them boarding the planes. Explain the flight school attendance. Explain the rental cars. Explain the calls home from people on the plane. Explain the videos and zillion eye witness accounts of the planes bashing into the buildings. Explain to me who exactly the people are that have been shooting back at our military for the past 15 years. Explain to me the bodies on the USS Cole. Explain to me Eyad Ismoil, and the 1993 bombing of the trade center. Is radical Islam a myth? Ask Jeff Bauman if he believes in radical Islam because he saw it on the news. Or Martin Richard's father.

Dan,

What you completely overlooked in the beginning of that video is how the man performing the experiments explained to you that regardless of scale, these experiments will provide the same results. There was a lot of math and science at the beginning there that you either overlooked or didn't understand. I suggest you watch again. Every time I see these experiments and say to myself "there is no way to refute that", someone finds a way. In this man's simplicity, he is showing the exact science behind why these buildings collapsed the way they did. The material he used is irrelevant, as what he is showing you are the laws of physics. The laws of physics apply to both his scale models as well as the full size buildings just the same, and I am not going to sit here and explain it to you over and over again. The video is quite simple, it's designed to be as such because people such as yourself are grasping at straws in the upholding of your programming. Please watch it again and pay attention to the math and science at the beginning. For the sake of comparison, the "official" NISK computer animation model, which is what people like yourself believe, lacks any science and physics and makes absolutely no sense. It has been cut to pieces by experienced engineers world wide, which is shown in the other video I posted in post #145. That is why they had to generate a computer model and not make an actual model in person to accurately display the physics of our planet, because they can alter the outcome to suit their needs in a computer generated model. Please view the video linked a couple of posts back regarding the engineers of the planet earth and how they feel about views shared by people such as yourself. Again, if you do not understand the science applied in the first video, watch it again. Your attempts to discredit the man doing the experiment show your ignorance to the science involved.

The rest that you are concerned with is quite simply irrelevant in comparison to the events that transpired and in my opinion shows the scope at which you are viewing. You are looking through a pin hole in a piece of paper. You really need to widen your focus here. You have a very, very low understanding of what your government is capable of. Putting people through flying school, videos of them on the planes, calls from the planes. Dan, that's all chicken shite semantics. Who the frig cares really? But I will entertain your train of thought here, but try to get 'er into second gear please.

Your government, likely CIA or black ops, can and do operate free of any bounds. Monetarily, by law, and likely have technology that the rest of us are unaware of. Your government lies all day every day, all the time. It's expected, it's a joke to many, and as such, they are very good at what they do. The following scenario is completely made up by me but just for example.

Uncle Sam- "Hey Hadji! Don't you think it would be a good idea for you guys to learn to fly a plane for (whatever) reason? We'll pay your way here, just come over here and get some schooling." Hadji comes to the states and goes to school, there is your record of that. "Hey hadji! There's a turbin convention over at (wherever the flight is going)! You guys wanna go check it out?" Now you can put them on the planes. Laughing at how ridiculous that is yet? It is, but it's just that simple. All they need to do is place them for the cameras, that's it. They can report anything else they want and people like you will eat it up. No proof, no science, yet you'll laugh at an experiment based on math and science. You'll believe what you're told by liars unquestionably, but you'll ignore science from someone who took hours and days of their life to do research and provide experiments for you to see, and you'll laugh at him, and my views are skewed...

The people who are shooting back at us in the desert are people whose lives have been turned upside-down by America. Our leaders stir up a shite stew over there and then send the poor to go die. If there had been no attacks on 9/11 and we showed up to conquer their countries the same exact way, you would get the same exact reaction. People fighting and willing to die for their home land, willing to die for a cause, just like I was. The whole planet was goaded into getting behind this false cause, and those with the dirtiest hands sit back and watch us squabble.

You make this far more complex than it has to be, which is how you're supposed to view it. Dan I could provide you with information all day and I do enjoy spreading the word, but once you reach the point of terminal velocity, full of questions such as you are, you must find your own answers. I know it's scary and you're comfortable in your little hologram of what life is. I know it's tough to think about the "good guys" doing such a thing. So many innocent lives lost, the firefighters and such, those killed by war, or those frigged from it just the same. It is of a scope you are having difficulty reaching, but I suggest you do so. I suggest the whole planet does, and if you haven't watched the video from the engineers world wide who are petitioning this entire event, I suggest you do so. It is your thought process which is becoming obsolete, not mine. The planet will see someday, and I predict there will be and entire re-thinking of what happened that day, and I predict the first rendition will be nothing more than an updated farce with the lies upheld. The answers we are given now break the laws of physics Dan, and that is ridiculous, and here I am handing you experiments which follow the laws of physics, and you laugh. You my friend, are blind and you are on hook, line, and sinker.

Since you refute the laws of physics (good luck with that) or didn't understand the video with buildings made to scale, I will now provide you with a video which you might understand a little better.

EDIT- It is no surprise that I am having trouble locating the experiment I saw which used actual steel beams and replicated the circumstances in the Twin Towers near exact. I will continue looking.

EDIT AGAIN- Once again, if you are viewing this on tapatalk, it is only showing a small portion of my post. Please toggle to "web view" to see the entire post.

[redsox]

Ok John. I have watched it again and again. And I will watch it yet again. Lets lay some ground rules here first. Please don't belittle me personally. i don't take it personal, as you are my friend no matter what is said here, but it dosen't help your argument at all and it dosen't lead to the finding of truth. Just because i disagree with you does not mean i don't understand simple math. Nor does it mean I am "blind," or "ignorant." You call my thoughts "irrelevant" and "chicken shite semantics" because any challenge to your science must be met with personal attacks because it cannot stand up on its own. You say the laws of physics apply no matter what the scale and his materials are irrelevant. Those are your words. You are a smart guy John. You're a welder. You have an understanding of how a forge works. You know the properties of steel change when heat is applied. Your example experiment acknowledges that. Yet, you watch a guy light a match to a thin piece of paper and call "samezes" on the heat produced by thousands of gallons of jet fuel burning with a supply of oxygen in a confined space. Then you call me ignorant. The CIA and the man behind the curtain are your escape clause when the facts build up. So, the CIA sent the terrorists to flight school? Ok, lets go with that. What about the phone calls from the plane? What about flight 93? All fake? What about 1993? Still lots of unanswered questions in your camp, john. Science must stand up to scrutiny.

[fabiodriven]

Dan I appreciate that you know not to take me personally so thank you. The term "ignorant" is not insulting. It means you are unaware or uneducated on a subject. I am ignorant in many ways, such as how I come off to other people as I try to explain things. Thank you for your understanding. I have company right now so I will check back later.

[redsox]

Ignorant means you have the information available to make the correct conclusion but instead choose to ignore it.

If I have any trouble with vocabulary, i'll seek your council, handsome. :cool:


The "correct" conclusion. Now iz b understandin'. Ignorant means disagreeing with you. Got it.

[Red Rider]

Fabio, you are too much, man. :lol:


I suggest you watch again. Please watch it again and pay attention... Please view the video... ...watch it again.Yes, yes, everyone must watch the videos again and again until you all conform. You must all conform to my way of thinking. Resistance is futile. Come join me and be enlightened.


...in the upholding of your programming.Here's some valid programming that I suggest everyone watch.

http://kisscartoon.eu/watch/south-park-season-10-episode-9-mystery-of-the-urinal-deuce/

[fabiodriven]

Don't watch it if you don't want to see or understand, or stop asking questions. You can't have it both ways.

[Red Rider]

I've seen the videos, read the reports, and I've come to my own conclusion.

[fabiodriven]

ON the whole 9-11 thing, I lean toward believing that it was in fact terrorist hijackers. I'm not saying we have been told the whole story, but like I said before, it's so hard for us to know who to believe when we don't have first hand knowledge. People lie, the government lies, it's very hard to know who is giving it to us straight. No, jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt structural steel, but it any interior structure fire generates plenty enough heat to alter it's integrity. Ask any firefighter how hot the inside of a burning building gets. It certainly isn't like they portray it in the movies, people walking around in a burning building coughing occasionally. The heat alone is enough to instantly cause irreversible damage to your lungs and kill you. It gets hot enough that smoke will itself ignite, called flashover, which occurs usually north of 900 deg Fahrenheit. Normal everyday items found in our homes burn hot enough to cause this. Jet fuel raises the bar and I believe certainly hot enough to negatively impact the steel weakening it. We use heat to manipulate steel in our shops every day.

IMHO, Dan raises good questions that are hard to ignore. How long after 9-11 did we see some people in the middle east celebrating their victory wearing shirts depicting the burning towers? Not sure why they would celebrate it if they had nothing to do with it, much less if our own government did it. Do I believe our government is corrupt and full of liars?? Absolutely. Am I ready to take that leap and sign onto the belief our own government with the help of who knows how many of our own fellow citizens perpetrated 9-11??? No, I can't say I'm there. We can all argue till the cows come home that much of the middle east hates us because we meddle in things that we shouldn't. That is a subject that can be debated. But I'm not sure about the war for oil assertion either. I don't know about you all, but I never experience a huge drop in energy prices during or after the war that I would expect if we were really there for the oil and got it. Matter of fact, it was during the last years of GWB and early in BHO administration that gasoline went over $4 per gallon if I recall correctly... Where is the oil we went there to get?? Yes, fuel prices are lower now, but for what reason?? Last I knew the first major drop in crude we experienced 3 or 4 years ago was due to the Saudis increasing production massively, probably to drive competing countries out if the oil business but who knows, that's another debate in and of itself.

Back to the towers: I am not a structural engineer. Just a regular guy looking at this as a regular guy would. It seems to me that when enough load bearing steel beams weakened under the weight of the floors above them, collapsing straight down seems right to me. What would anyone expect??? For it to topple over like a tree that has been face cut and felled? (something I DO know a little bit about). Gravity wins, it's the single strongest and never dying force in the universe, and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. I don't see any other way those towers would fall unless manipulated to do so and at great length.

I'll be straight honest here. A big part of the reason I have a hard time swallowing the "9-11 was an inside job" pill is due to some of the more prominent figures who promote it, chiefly among them being Micheal Moore. I can't stand that man or anything he claims to stand for. He is in my opinion a fraud and a radical socialist, neither of which I feel are good for our country. He is to me no different than Napoleon the pig from Animal Farm. So there's that....

John, I still count you a friend and I hope you understand that just because I may not quite see these things the same as you I would never hold it against you. I know you are a person who does more than his share of thinking and I know you don't assert things you don't truly believe in. As always, I respect your service and thank you for it.

All said and done, both sides of this issue call the other blind or asleep... I don't really know if that's fair to say. What I would like to know is what we are supposed to do if that big truth bomb is ever dropped and the 9-11 thing does turn out to be confirmed to be a cover up? What then?? I vote every election, locals included. I'm not sure what else we are to do??? Storm DC???? I don't think that will end well... I know we are living very hard and precarious times... I fear for my kids.

Joe I hope you don't mind me quoting your post in this thread here. I'm not looking to recruit you or anyone else or force my beliefs down anyone's throat. I take this subject very seriously because of the truth that is behind it. You might relate if one day you figured out that your own government would do something such as this, or if they truly didn't, at least they would hide the truth about what happened.


I've seen the videos, read the reports, and I've come to my own conclusion.

This is all I, as well as everyone in these videos is asking of you. Red Rider has just chosen to ignore the laws of physics as well as the expert analysis of thousands of structural engineers as well as demolitions experts around the planet. You can do that as well, and so can Dan. I didn't bring this up because you people are honestly hopeless, and I gave up. It's a subject maybe you and others are better off pretending didn't happen. I will promise you if I have the opportunity to get my hands dirty again some day for the correct cause, I will. I'm not asking you or anyone else to join me, and I'd still do it for people who would just as soon I shut up and go away.

Dan brought up "false claims of explosions before the towers fell", so I provided video evidence which can be seen in two separate videos. In case you missed them, they are here-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAv7XFk7kRk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg&t=193s

Claim #1, disproven with video evidence as well as eyewitness testimony.

I implore anyone who has not to view these videos if you want to hear from people who are experts in this very field, then form your own opinion. Forget about hijackers and fairy tales, not saying that didn't happen but if you think it would be difficult to cast that part in comparison to taking down three massive structures the way they have, then you're not understanding the magnitude of this situation. In comparison to the other events that happened that day, you are best off leaving what by comparison are minute details out of the equation because the focus on that is to distract you and make things more complex. Worry about that later, but for the time being the "accepted" explanation of how these buildings came down is unequivocally false.

Red Rider asked some very good questions to test my mettle, and my reply to him is "I am not an engineer", however here are dozens of well-known engineers and demolition experts who can speak to every detail you may want to know. These people are far more qualified than I am myself. Please hear what they have to say in the second video linked above if you care to.

So let's do this because this works out best for everyone. Watch the videos if you want, or don't. Shove them where the sun don't shine, I don't care. I don't care what happens to any of you or any of your children. I watch out for me, because I take a lot of looking after. I have no children to pass this place on to, I am here for me and me only, and my cat. I can promise you I will be fine and if I'm hit by a truck tomorrow I will have zero regrets. Once I pass from this realm there is no concern for me or what this crooked place has become. Just about everyone else in here should be wondering where they are raising their young and the condition of this place and the mind set of the generations to follow, who are even more blind than those who come from a less tech-savvy era. I'll just shut the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro up and I'll be fine. You guys can pretend whatever keeps you producing.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

John, no problem bringing my post here.

OK, so the whole theory that 9/11 was perpetrated by the powers that be is predicated on the assertion that we really went to war for oil and the 9/11 attacks would get the American people on board?? Is this correct?? If not then what I'm about to say is a time wasted...

If so then consider this: Why would it make sense to go to such great lengths, murder 3,000 citizens risking the cover-up being exposed just to get oil? It's a known fact that we have gigantic oil reserves within our own borders and wouldn't it make more sense to have the political "war" here with the extremists environmentalists and use our own resources??? Some say war boosts the economy, OK.. But I would argue that increased production from our own resources here would prove to be a much more substantial and sustainable boost to our economy. This is what I think whenever I hear the "war for oil" catchphrase being tossed about. To me the war for oil assertion makes the least amount of sense. Lets say oil is the goal of the war, #1, where is it? #2, that's a pretty bad investment if you ask me.. I'm not looking at the numbers but I would venture a guess that the war has cost us exponentially more than any possible return in oil would amount to. It just doesn't add up to me.

Am I missing something with this??

[redsox]

I'll be bummed out if you bail on this John. Also, you shouldn't have to carry the torch all by yourself. i know there are other conspiracy guys out there lying in the weeds who haven't chimed in. Still no answer to the calls from the plane. Still noting about 1993. No support for the conspiracy argument, other than "open your eyes and you will see" accompanied by endless homework provided by the google machine. Lets discuss conspiracy in general. Not limited to 9/11. Name a bad thing thats happened that wasn't a conspiracy.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

And John, I can't agree with the idea that the Jihadists are only fighting us because "we are over there". Look at what those bastards have been doing in Europe and even the attacks that have occured at the hands of radical muslims right here? The night club shooting, the attack in Texas last year that fortunately resulted in the attackers being stopped by police. What about these muslim-only zones popping up, especially in Michigan of all places?? Make no mistake, these pukes have aspirations of world domination with sharia law being the law of the land EVERYWHERE. The military presence and operations in the middle East notwithstanding, they would still be on the attack the world over.

[fabiodriven]

John, no problem bringing my post here.

OK, so the whole theory that 9/11 was perpetrated by the powers that be is predicated on the assertion that we really went to war for oil and the 9/11 attacks would get the American people on board?? Is this correct?? If not then what I'm about to say is a time wasted...

If so then consider this: Why would it make sense to go to such great lengths, murder 3,000 citizens risking the cover-up being exposed just to get oil? It's a known fact that we have gigantic oil reserves within our own borders and wouldn't it make more sense to have the political "war" here with the extremists environmentalists and use our own resources??? Some say war boosts the economy, OK.. But I would argue that increased production from our own resources here would prove to be a much more substantial and sustainable boost to our economy. This is what I think whenever I hear the "war for oil" catchphrase being tossed about. To me the war for oil assertion makes the least amount of sense. Lets say oil is the goal of the war, #1, where is it? #2, that's a pretty bad investment if you ask me.. I'm not looking at the numbers but I would venture a guess that the war has cost us exponentially more than any possible return in oil would amount to. It just doesn't add up to me.

Am I missing something with this??

You are on the right path Joe. The part about human lives lost, what you must realize is our lives are worth nothing more to them than we can produce for them. There are no feelings towards our loss of lives or for those who would grieve our loss. You, me, Dan, the Glamster, we are disposable. We are born into tens of thousands of dollars of debt the moment we breathe our first breaths on this planet. All of that money, taxes or private profit, it all trickles down to the same place, and that is the banks. The federal reserve. We are all owned by them and were signed over decades ago. If that subject interests you, there is plenty of information on it. I don't recall the exact year off the top of my head that occurred, but I believe it was in the 20's or 30's.

It is about oil, but it is ultimately about power. There are families such as the Rothschilds who want to own the planet, literally. Families such as those, of which there are a few, have had unimaginable amounts of wealth for generation after generation, and this planet and anything obtainable by their imagination has been at their beck and call their entire lives. Their greed knows no bounds and the planet is their playground. You are talking about families that profit in stifling numbers from war. They supply the oil, the machines, everything, everything ends up with them getting paid. All of our currency comes from and ends up at the federal reserve, they own us. They are a private entity, not a part of the United States government, and are so mega wealthy that they can do what they want when they want to. Why would they adhere to laws of an entity that is actually beneath them, that they actually own?

It is about power Joe, and they thirst for it. They're used to making money, and they do it coming and going, but they don't even have to. They own money, they can make more. To understand more from someone who knows much more than I do, and knows how to explain this better than I can, here is a five minute video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-5C4M0jqgE

[fabiodriven]

I'll be bummed out if you bail on this John. Also, you shouldn't have to carry the torch all by yourself. i know there are other conspiracy guys out there lying in the weeds who haven't chimed in. Still no answer to the calls from the plane. Still noting about 1993. No support for the conspiracy argument, other than "open your eyes and you will see" accompanied by endless homework provided by the google machine. Lets discuss conspiracy in general. Not limited to 9/11. Name a bad thing thats happened that wasn't a conspiracy.

Hypothesis proponents Dan. Conspiracy theorist is a dismissive trigger term created for people to disregard whatever they hear from that person.

Easy gunpowder, one step at a time. I've not said anything about 1993 in this thread, there is plenty to work on here. Clear your desk and focus on one part at a time. I'm not going to sit here and translate everything for you. If you don't have time to watch informative videos that answer the questions you're asking, you're either making another excuse to remain ignorant or you just like to watch me type.

Here are a couple more instances, but one step at a time. I am a wealth of information on a myriad of these subjects, but far from an expert in any one. The one that I know the most about is 9/11, and that's what we're focusing on, so let's keep our focus.



Pearl Harbor, December 7 1941. The Japanese attack the American Navy while still tied up to the docks in their own port. How could such a massive attack possibly be overlooked? Some say it wasn't. Some say that the American government knew the Japanese were coming, but did nothing about it. World War 2 obviously ensued.

In August of 1964 the USS Maddox, a U.S. Navy destroyer, was conducting signals intelligence patrols in the Gulf of Tonkin off the coast of Vietnam when it was supposedly attacked by three North Vietnamese torpedo boats. The result of this attack was the Vietnam war. The American public was told that the Vietnamese fired the first shots. Recently unclassified documents show otherwise however. It turns out that the American boat was the first one to fire. THIS IS NOT HEARSAY, THIS IS FACT- AMERICA MANUFACTURED A REASON TO START THE VIETNAM WAR.

That's right, our country started the Vietnam conflict. A conflict in which thousands of people died, and countless more were affected by. Think of the atrocities that everyone knows about when you mention the Vietnam conflict. Now think of why they happened. Those things happened to all of those people, millions of people's lives affected, because somebody in America wanted them to. I'm not going to get into too much detail as far as reasons go, if you're interested look into it yourself.

Dan, did you take the hour or so to watch the video made by engineers and demolition experts around the planet? It is flattering that you'd take my word over theirs, but I think it would behoove you greatly to see what they'd like to show you. It's really your own eyes that need to see these things. I'm not going to sit here and act out every scene for you, I cannot show you what they will.

[fabiodriven]

And John, I can't agree with the idea that the Jihadists are only fighting us because "we are over there". Look at what those bastards have been doing in Europe and even the attacks that have occured at the hands of radical muslims right here? The night club shooting, the attack in Texas last year that fortunately resulted in the attackers being stopped by police. What about these muslim-only zones popping up, especially in Michigan of all places?? Make no mistake, these pukes have aspirations of world domination with sharia law being the law of the land EVERYWHERE. The military presence and operations in the middle East notwithstanding, they would still be on the attack the world over.

Oh you can, you just won't. I'm not faulting you for that, but you are likely misinformed on most of the subjects at hand. I'm not saying the brown people are right, but we're far more wrong than you realize. It is a truly American standpoint to look at a foreign country's people as being at fault for defending their land when we show up uninvited, as if we have the right to pull up on anyone's shores any time. What our government thinks and decides in regards to their country is a moot point to them, and as well it should be.

If the people of Iraq one day say "Let's invade America for (whatever) reason", and they were capable, and subsequently landed on our shores, how would you react? If Iraqi tanks were rolling up your road, would you go out and shake their hands? Or welcome them with open arms? Let us not forget, we were in Iraq for weapons of mass destruction, were we not? What happened with those? If that was our reason for being there and they turned out not to exist, then why did we not turn around and go home?

[fabiodriven]

Here's what your average Afghani thinks about 9/11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SimIS_cQ6ko

To explain to Dan, because I guess you don't want to learn or don't have time to learn or like making me type, the short version of this video is American soldiers showing pictures of the 9/11 disaster to dozens of Afghani people and very few at all even knew what it was a picture of.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I don't disagree with you on that facet of it. What I'm saying is that the Jihadists are not and have not just been nsitting idly at home and all of this stirred up just because we went there. And I would even go so far as to say that tensions and hostility have probably increased since we went there. But what did Spain do to deserve an attack? How about France? Are they really that big of players in operations over there?? As far as I know they are not. And I must ask, do you really think that Jihadists attacks here and in Europe would cease if we pulled out 100% tomorrow?? I seriously doubt it.

[fabiodriven]

I think they never would have started if we hadn't kicked the hornet's nest. For a company that profits from war, what better way to ensure your future than to rile up the most bitter and war-torn people history has to offer? Every time they attack, it's dollar signs for the federal reserve. People get scared, they consume, that's how it works. They also get docile and stay home, thereby making them easier to control.

Spain and France I have no idea. I have no information on that subject. I am very subjective and I like to get behind things that can be proven, I've seen with my own eyes, or I have experience with. Before we get too far away, clear your desk as well. One subject at a time.

Myself, as well as Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth, http://www.ae911truth.org/, know because of hundreds of collective years of experience and the laws of physics that the three concrete and steel structures that fell that day did not fall due to the reasons we're being given, IE being hit by aircraft. I like this point because it is simple, there is overwhelming evidence, and I completely understand it. If you, Joe, have not yet viewed the video those people have taken the time to produce, I might suggest you do so.

[bkm]

The projectile that hit the Pentagon was undoubtedly not a passenger aircraft.

With the evidence, and blatant lack, available to draw conclusions, if you think otherwise you aren't uneducated, unaware, or ignorant. Just fvckin stupid.How can you say "undoubtedly?" I've seen video's supporting both theories. I'm honestly on the fence. Now do I think think there's more than meets the eye? Yes. Do I think a government that is not smart enough to plant "wmd's" in Iraq to say "told you so" is smart enough pull off an elaborate conspiracy and no one in the deep state has blown a whistle? No. For every video showing a cover-up, there's another supporting the facts as presented. Both sides have an agenda and I belive there are three sides to every story. Your side, my side, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

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[fabiodriven]

The projectile that hit the Pentagon was undoubtedly not a passenger aircraft.

With the evidence, and blatant lack, available to draw conclusions, if you think otherwise you aren't uneducated, unaware, or ignorant. Just fvckin stupid.

Just my personal opinion, not regurgitated or drawn by anyone else other than me from what I've seen and know; I don't understand how the same person who thinks a 767 took down those towers could possibly not notice the lack of damage at the Pentagon from supposedly the same type of aircraft. No plane wreckage, no bodies. I mean come the frig on.

[fabiodriven]

How can you say "undoubtedly?" I've seen video's supporting both theories. I'm honestly on the fence. Now do I think think there's more than meets the eye? Yes. Do I think a government that is not smart enough to plant "wmd's" in Iraq to say "told you so" is smart enough pull off an elaborate conspiracy and no one in the deep state has blown a whistle? No. For every video showing a cover-up, there's another supporting the facts as presented. Both sides have an agenda and I belive there are three sides to every story. Your side, my side, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

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Bryan I hope you watch what the engineers and architects have to say.

[Red Rider]

Ok, I just watched the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg&t=193s

I have to admit that I hadn't seen that particular video before. It does make some very compelling points, and the engineers and architects sound like they know what they're talking about.


Bryan I hope you watch what the engineers and architects have to say.

But, if the government is controlling the media, why are these videos still available to be seen? Are these really engineers and architects on the video, or actors in a government-sponsored film?

I just blew your mind.

[fabiodriven]

No, no you didn't at all actually. I'm very glad you watched it though. It does tell me you lied about watching it earlier, but I already knew that.

I just blew your mind didn't I?

[RIDE-RED 250r]

The projectile that hit the Pentagon was undoubtedly not a passenger aircraft.

With the evidence, and blatant lack, available to draw conclusions, if you think otherwise you aren't uneducated, unaware, or ignorant. Just fvckin stupid.

Screw you for the last part of that post Damon

[bkm]

Just my personal opinion, not regurgitated or drawn by anyone else other than me from what I've seen and know; I don't understand how the same person who thinks a 767 took down those towers could possibly not notice the lack of damage at the Pentagon from supposedly the same type of aircraft. No plane wreckage, no bodies. I mean come the frig on.John, there was plane wreckage photos, and an investgator first on the scene is quoted to have personally handled wreckage and body parts. I'd say the Pentagon, the blood and guts of the nation's defense, was constructed a tad bit different than a sky scraper, so I don't know how you can compare the damage?

There were 137 eye witnesses that saw a passenger plane hit the Pentagon, other pilots were transmitting with Air Traffic Control of a low flying plane heading for the Pentagon. Yet there are no witnesses of a missile or military plane causing the damage.

Light poles were snapped off several hundred yards outside the Pentagon that were spaced out the width of a passenger plane. What knocked those over?

The Dude wants to call me and anyone who doesn't believe fawking stupid and says there is no evidence. Where did this evidence come from? And if I hear "it was planted," I'm out. There's no reasoning with logic like that and honestly looses all credibility imo.

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[fabiodriven]

Yes the name calling Damon, please.

[fabiodriven]

John, there was plane wreckage photos, and an investgator first on the scene is quoted to have personally handled wreckage and body parts. I'd say the Pentagon, the blood and guts of the nation's defense, was constructed a tad bit different than a sky scraper, so I don't know how you can compare the damage?

There were 137 eye witnesses that saw a passenger plane hit the Pentagon, other pilots were transmitting with Air Traffic Control of a low flying plane heading for the Pentagon. Yet there are no witnesses of a missile or military plane causing the damage.

Light poles were snapped off several hundred yards outside the Pentagon that were spaced out the width of a passenger plane. What knocked those over?

The Dude wants to call me and anyone who doesn't believe fawking stupid and says there is no evidence. Where did this evidence come from? And if I hear "it was planted," I'm out. There's no reasoning with logic like that and honestly looses all credibility imo.

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I'm going to try and look more into that. I've been looking at this stuff for so long that I end up forgetting stuff that I knew. I do recall being perplexed by what appeared to be a lot less damage than I would expect at the Pentagon and not nearly the wreckage that would be expected. I'd like to brush up on that, but I recall at one point thinking a missile would be more likely.

I'm not begging anyone to stay in this conversation, although whoever sticks around is appreciated. With what I know I feel it's irresponsible of people not to be concerned, however those who don't know wouldn't realize how concerned they should be.

[redsox]

This will be my last post for the night, but i will watch some videos and post again in the morning. I should have time to contribute here tomorrow. Again, John, I will volley back the ball. Its easy to say "clear your desk" in order to control the dialogue. I must insist that this ship be navigated jointly. I've asked the questions and the questions remain. Questions that I feel merit answers. Now, your homework assignments have been lengthy. I would conservatively estimate that I have watched over ten hours of films/documentaries/youtube clips, etc, etc that you've recommended. I don't watch everything you put out, but I watch a lot. It interests me, and I enjoy it, even if i disagree or simply disbelieve in some of it. But every time you are taken to task you shift gear and simply assign more homework. More and more and more. Most recently I poked serious holes in the video with the flawed experiments. This was met with no substantive reply. Just more videos. More homework. I will do it. I will watch that stuff. But I won't let you off the hook. How are the families of the dead fooled? What about the calls from the planes? What about the failed 1993 attack? What about the Cole? The ball is in your court. As an aside, I have a response to the Fed and the War for Oil and the Rothschilds and the machine, but lets take our time. Clear your desk.

[El Camexican]

With the evidence, and blatant lack, available to draw conclusions, if you think otherwise you aren't uneducated, unaware, or ignorant. Just fvckin stupid.

So you respect everyone's opinion, as long as it's the same as yours? I see you've officially put your tiger striped shirt back on, welcome back. :beer

[El Camexican]

More than likely. However it's a tragedy for me personally to have to accept that people with upper level intelligence are not able to easily see that a jumbo jet didn't hit the Pentagon. Again simple observation in conjunction with 2nd grade math makes it obvious.

Central location of intelligence for the world's largest and most powerful military, and they allowed a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotr ailpro jumbo jet carrying passengers flown by a "known terrorist" to infiltrate the airspace and crash into it. Don't care about your feelings. If you think that's true you're a fvcking moron.

Check your meds, I think the expiration date has passed.

[fabiodriven]

Damon you know I appreciate your opinion but I'm not going to ask again about the name calling. I'll ask everyone else to bear with me for the moment please.

[bkm]

More than likely. However it's a tragedy for me personally to have to accept that people with upper level intelligence are not able to easily see that a jumbo jet didn't hit the Pentagon. Again simple observation in conjunction with 2nd grade math makes it obvious.

Central location of intelligence for the world's largest and most powerful military, and they allowed a jumbo jet carrying passengers flown by a "known terrorist" that overtook the plane with a one inch blade to infiltrate the airspace and crash into it. Don't care about your feelings. Don't give a shlt who I "offend". If you think that's true you're a fvcking moron.


.

I'm not offended. I just think your inability to dispute the facts I presented above other than saying, if we don't believe what you say, makes us a fvcking moron, in fact makes you look like a fvcking moron.

There are photos of passenger plane wreckage. Where did it come from? 137 eye witnesses all collaborated like good sheep to say they saw a passenger plane, yet not a single person saw a missile or military plane?

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[bkm]

Yeah i don`t buy the Pentagon bs one bit ......no aircraft engine`s were recovered and no videos were released ? ......there`s cameras up the jing jang .....and no video ........the witnesses were all on duty at the Pentagon .....no civilians .....i`m so surprisedThere was engine parts recovered, along with landing gear, wheels, and outer skin. Where did it come from? What knocked down the light poles the width of a passenger plane several hundred yards out?

I'm all eyes here fellas, but sorry if a bunch of guys on 3ww saying it's the way it is because they say so, isn't going to convince me.

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[bkm]

Since we like video's here.

https://youtu.be/49nYlcOtnss

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[fabiodriven]

This will be my last post for the night, but i will watch some videos and post again in the morning. I should have time to contribute here tomorrow. Again, John, I will volley back the ball. Its easy to say "clear your desk" in order to control the dialogue. I must insist that this ship be navigated jointly. I've asked the questions and the questions remain. Questions that I feel merit answers. Now, your homework assignments have been lengthy. I would conservatively estimate that I have watched over ten hours of films/documentaries/youtube clips, etc, etc that you've recommended. I don't watch everything you put out, but I watch a lot. It interests me, and I enjoy it, even if i disagree or simply disbelieve in some of it. But every time you are taken to task you shift gear and simply assign more homework. More and more and more. Most recently I poked serious holes in the video with the flawed experiments. This was met with no substantive reply. Just more videos. More homework. I will do it. I will watch that stuff. But I won't let you off the hook. How are the families of the dead fooled? What about the calls from the planes? What about the failed 1993 attack? What about the Cole? The ball is in your court. As an aside, I have a response to the Fed and the War for Oil and the Rothschilds and the machine, but lets take our time. Clear your desk.

As I have explained Dan, and as I will reiterate, there are experts that need to be heard. In this instance more so than any other video I have ever posted. I already explained, all of your questions have answers and I am providing them to you, you just have to read or watch them. If you watch the video from the architects and engineers, these other questions will be irrelevant for the moment, although you will hear from more than one victim's family as well as firefighters in this video. You are going about this the wrong way, you are asking for too many answers at once. I don't ask you for the answers to ten different questions at the same time and just BAM! expect you to reply to all of them, do I? One farking question at a time. Never anywhere in this thread have I mentioned anything you're asking about. I like to speak to facts that I know about and can tell you something about and then point out my source where I got my information. This process takes time, but I will never speak to you about anything that I do not know about. If you want the answers to particular questions, open up your laptop, and start educating yourself. I am going so far as even giving you the material to use, but it is up to you to use it. If you want me to come to your house and physically act out the information that I have obtained I can tell you that is not going to happen. If you want me to type out word for word the quotes of hundreds if not thousands of people's words that is not going to happen either. I don't know what it is you're not understanding here but I am John Fahey, a simple person who likes the truth and to educate myself. I was a truck driver and a soldier. I didn't graduate high school and I prefer to ride three wheelers and motorcycles and work in my yard. I am not one of the thousands of engineers, scientists, ex-military, firefighters, victims families, physicists, architects, demolition experts, or building designers who would like you to please give them an hour of your time. I don't understand what you want me to do here, I'm not going to pretend I hold any of those titles. All I know is who to believe and I know something is drastically wrong here.

Dan, when you realize that your government either took down these buildings or at the very least covered it up, your other questions are a handful of many, many more important ones that arise.


Most recently I poked serious holes in the video with the flawed experiments. This was met with no substantive reply. .

Dan,

somehow you missed it but I not only replied to your post, but I replied thoroughly. It follows here-


Dan,

What you completely overlooked in the beginning of that video is how the man performing the experiments explained to you that regardless of scale, these experiments will provide the same results. There was a lot of math and science at the beginning there that you either overlooked or didn't understand. I suggest you watch again. Every time I see these experiments and say to myself "there is no way to refute that", someone finds a way. In this man's simplicity, he is showing the exact science behind why these buildings collapsed the way they did. The material he used is irrelevant, as what he is showing you are the laws of physics. The laws of physics apply to both his scale models as well as the full size buildings just the same, and I am not going to sit here and explain it to you over and over again. The video is quite simple, it's designed to be as such because people such as yourself are grasping at straws in the upholding of your programming. Please watch it again and pay attention to the math and science at the beginning. For the sake of comparison, the "official" NISK computer animation model, which is what people like yourself believe, lacks any science and physics and makes absolutely no sense. It has been cut to pieces by experienced engineers world wide, which is shown in the other video I posted in post #145. That is why they had to generate a computer model and not make an actual model in person to accurately display the physics of our planet, because they can alter the outcome to suit their needs in a computer generated model. Please view the video linked a couple of posts back regarding the engineers of the planet earth and how they feel about views shared by people such as yourself. Again, if you do not understand the science applied in the first video, watch it again. Your attempts to discredit the man doing the experiment show your ignorance to the science involved.

The rest that you are concerned with is quite simply irrelevant in comparison to the events that transpired and in my opinion shows the scope at which you are viewing. You are looking through a pin hole in a piece of paper. You really need to widen your focus here. You have a very, very low understanding of what your government is capable of. Putting people through flying school, videos of them on the planes, calls from the planes. Dan, that's all chicken shite semantics. Who the frig cares really? But I will entertain your train of thought here, but try to get 'er into second gear please.

Your government, likely CIA or black ops, can and do operate free of any bounds. Monetarily, by law, and likely have technology that the rest of us are unaware of. Your government lies all day every day, all the time. It's expected, it's a joke to many, and as such, they are very good at what they do. The following scenario is completely made up by me but just for example.

Uncle Sam- "Hey Hadji! Don't you think it would be a good idea for you guys to learn to fly a plane for (whatever) reason? We'll pay your way here, just come over here and get some schooling." Hadji comes to the states and goes to school, there is your record of that. "Hey hadji! There's a turbin convention over at (wherever the flight is going)! You guys wanna go check it out?" Now you can put them on the planes. Laughing at how ridiculous that is yet? It is, but it's just that simple. All they need to do is place them for the cameras, that's it. They can report anything else they want and people like you will eat it up. No proof, no science, yet you'll laugh at an experiment based on math and science. You'll believe what you're told by liars unquestionably, but you'll ignore science from someone who took hours and days of their life to do research and provide experiments for you to see, and you'll laugh at him, and my views are skewed...

The people who are shooting back at us in the desert are people whose lives have been turned upside-down by America. Our leaders stir up a shite stew over there and then send the poor to go die. If there had been no attacks on 9/11 and we showed up to conquer their countries the same exact way, you would get the same exact reaction. People fighting and willing to die for their home land, willing to die for a cause, just like I was. The whole planet was goaded into getting behind this false cause, and those with the dirtiest hands sit back and watch us squabble.

You make this far more complex than it has to be, which is how you're supposed to view it. Dan I could provide you with information all day and I do enjoy spreading the word, but once you reach the point of terminal velocity, full of questions such as you are, you must find your own answers. I know it's scary and you're comfortable in your little hologram of what life is. I know it's tough to think about the "good guys" doing such a thing. So many innocent lives lost, the firefighters and such, those killed by war, or those frigged from it just the same. It is of a scope you are having difficulty reaching, but I suggest you do so. I suggest the whole planet does, and if you haven't watched the video from the engineers world wide who are petitioning this entire event, I suggest you do so. It is your thought process which is becoming obsolete, not mine. The planet will see someday, and I predict there will be and entire re-thinking of what happened that day, and I predict the first rendition will be nothing more than an updated farce with the lies upheld. The answers we are given now break the laws of physics Dan, and that is ridiculous, and here I am handing you experiments which follow the laws of physics, and you laugh. You my friend, are blind and you are on hook, line, and sinker.

Since you refute the laws of physics (good luck with that) or didn't understand the video with buildings made to scale, I will now provide you with a video which you might understand a little better.

EDIT- It is no surprise that I am having trouble locating the experiment I saw which used actual steel beams and replicated the circumstances in the Twin Towers near exact. I will continue looking.

EDIT AGAIN- Once again, if you are viewing this on tapatalk, it is only showing a small portion of my post. Please toggle to "web view" to see the entire post.

[fabiodriven]

I'm all eyes here fellas, but sorry if a bunch of guys on 3ww saying it's the way it is because they say so, isn't going to convince me.


Apology accepted.

Yes that's right Bryan. Don't listen to me, don't listen to Damon (obviously), and for the love of god do not listen to Glamy.

Bryan, nobody has asked you to listen to us. I am asking you to listen to the American Institute of Architects, who has backing by thousands of people and signatures from thousands of architects alone, and that's just licensed architects. There is a petition. If you do watch it, please pay close attention to the titles of all those who are speaking, every one of them. This isn't my wacky idea of a dumb conspiracy theory, this is real farking life, and this is coming to fruition. All the years you guys have looked at me like a kook, and guess what? I've been right the whole time. I don't need to call anyone names.

[fabiodriven]

Damon I'm reporting your post. Learn some tact please, you're disrupting the thread.

[bkm]

Apology accepted.

Yes that's right Bryan. Don't listen to me, don't listen to Damon (obviously), and for the love of god do not listen to Glamy.

Bryan, nobody has asked you to listen to us. I am asking you to listen to the American Institute of Architects, who has backing by thousands of people and signatures from thousands of architects alone, and that's just licensed architects. There is a petition. If you do watch it, please pay close attention to the titles of all those who are speaking, every one of them. This isn't my wacky idea of a dumb conspiracy theory, this is real farking life, and this is coming to fruition. All the years you guys have looked at me like a kook, and guess what? I've been right the whole time. I don't need to call anyone names.If you read my first post, I clearly said I'm not buying what the government is selling hook line and sinker. I'm also not going all in on a vast Deep State cover-up. My response was to Douche saying "undoubtedly" a passenger plane did not hit the Pentagon. Okay, I can believe that, but where did the evidence in the video I posted come from?

As far as the towers, I haven't watched any of the videos you posted. I'll do so when I go to midnights in a week or so.

There are also debunking vids out there with experts who refute every video you post. Just as there are conspiracy vids with experts who debunk the debunking vids.

Let's say the cover-up/conspiracy is proved, what then? Where do we go from here? What changes? Do we get a do over?


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[yaegerb]

First and only warning. Please stop the name calling on all sides! Thanks and have a nice night!

The mgmt.

[fabiodriven]

There are also debunking vids out there with experts who refute every video you post. Just as there are conspiracy vids with experts who debunk the debunking vids.

Let's say the cover-up/conspiracy is proved, what then? Where do we go from here? What changes? Do we get a do over?

This will seem like a bold statement, but I do not feasibly see any way to debunk the people who are speaking the the video we are talking the most about. It's simple physics backed by scientific evidence and scrutinized by some very accomplished people.

Where do we go from here? What changes? That's up to you. I know what I'm doing. I'm going high-speed, low-drag. I live one day at a time and I know there are good things in store for me. You can do as you wish, all of you, but it is imperative as many people know the truth about this country as possible. I will be here for the time being, ignorant of whatever the media wishes to cram into my noggin, no news, no TV, no commercials, no Fakebook, only the real world and me. I will travel this country for a while and might set up somewhere and stay, but that depends. I might go to a different country.

But the question at hand is what do YOU do? Always do good, always. Don't lie, don't wish bad on others unless you intend to deal with it yourself, don't call names. Question authority, and do not always assume authority is right just because they are in a position of authority. People in positions of authority are just people, and if they think otherwise they don't deserve the authority they have. Be righteous, walk the line, and make your personal universe the best it can possibly be, then encourage others to do so. Human beings need to evolve, we need to get past so many hangups that are perceived as "normal" behavior that are truly anything but. As a whole, we are regressing, not evolving, but if you choose to be better it is really easy to shine amongst so many turds. It's not that I'm extra smart or extra good, it's that the entire country is getting dumber and making worse decisions all the time. How can so many people get so stupid so uniformly so fast? Well the whole country eats the same food (which we have a serious problem with), watches the same garbage on TV, and uses the same social media, and we have a serious problem with this country getting dumber and number every day.

I can tell you what I do, but I am not you. Be a good person and stand up against evil when you see it.

[El Camexican]

it's a fvcking internet forum.

Is that all it is? Is that why you create multiple identities and keep returning here ban after ban?

Na, it’s way more than that for you. It’s a place to come and act out your frustrations. A place to lash out against others, who’ve earned educations, raised families and tried to contribute towards a better society. It’s a place where a “like” on a post makes you feel like you’ve made a difference in the world without having to put a clean shirt on and face the realty on the other side of your trailer door.

Does it make you feel big to call down people’s opinions in a discussion about things and places of which you have zero personal knowledge? Do you think looking at select and possibly doctored pictures posted on the web and watching videos compiled by people you don’t know and have never met make you an expert on a subject?

Your words and past actions reek of insecurely and perhaps with good reason. You don’t share DNA with anyone who’s ever completed high school, you’re biggest accomplishment in life thus far was to ride a three wheeler a couple thousand miles on pavement and mama didn’t love you.

You scoff at 9 to 5 stiffs as though they’re slaves, but try as you might you can’t hold a steady minimum wage job down for 6 straight months and between those you start and close enterprises with the same frequency as most get haircuts, but here, on this “fvcking internet forum” you’re a an expert on whatever topic comes up, usually in threads started by others.

In fact "The Dude" hasn’t started a single thread. Nope, you’re content with coming on here and sh*tting up other peoples threads and who can blame you? You’ve got fugkall going on besides this website, but like everything else in your life so far you’re turning it to sh*t.

[fabiodriven]

How can who get so stupid? No name calling John.

Damon for the love of all things holy, stop posting in my thread. I'm blocking you now and I hope others can overlook your posts as well. Please don't feed the animals Nico.

[fabiodriven]

Since we like video's here.

https://youtu.be/49nYlcOtnss

I must say, this video didn't prove anything to me. I'm not saying I disagree with the theory, I'd like to look more into the pentagon stuff myself, but that video didn't prove anything. I did like the rendition of "Heart Shaped Box" on the piano, so that was cool.

One thing that I can't shake; It's very difficult to get anything at all from that grainy security video, and it's difficult to perceive size and distance using that video, but that looks a lot smaller than a 767 at least in that video. I've really looked at that and you can see how far away the impact zone is from the camera, and I would expect a 767 to be much bigger. Tough to say from that video though.

[Red Rider]

I'm very glad you watched it though. It does tell me you lied about watching it earlier, but I already knew that.Nope, not lying. I've watched so many of these videos, and you've posted so many, that I assumed I had watched that particular one as well, but as I said, I was incorrect, so I watched it, and then admitted it. Not quite the same as blatantly lying about it.

[fabiodriven]

I should have said I thought you were lying, but I did know you hadn't seen it. Thanks again for watching.

[atc007]

I must say, this video didn't prove anything to me. I'm not saying I disagree with the theory, I'd like to look more into the pentagon stuff myself, but that video didn't prove anything. I did like the rendition of "Heart Shaped Box" on the piano, so that was cool.

One thing that I can't shake; It's very difficult to get anything at all from that grainy security video, and it's difficult to perceive size and distance using that video, but that looks a lot smaller than a 767 at least in that video. I've really looked at that and you can see how far away the impact zone is from the camera, and I would expect a 767 to be much bigger. Tough to say from that video though.

Explained....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT9-jLESHA8

[redsox]

I watched the Barry Jennings and Michael Hess video. Barry Jennings told about three different stories. He is telling the truth each time. At least he is telling his truth. He's not lying. In the first clip, right after a skyscraper fell on him, he was a little shaken up. I think that that is understandable considering the circumstances. He mixes up the 8th floor and the 6th floor. He also mixes up how he was saved and who it was that saved him. If you gather witness statements from any group of people about any subject, there are bound to be variations, especially regarding traumatic events. As for his death, he was an overweight, older black guy. Statistically speaking, diabetes is about a zillion times more likely the culprit than CIA murder. But the shadow company camp will ignore all of this. And let me expound on his death a little more. There is ZERO evidence of any wrong doing. ZERO. Yet this hit piece, slanted video changes the tone of the video and the music to make it all seem suspicious. "Barry died mysteriously" Really? What exactly is mysterious about it? Nothing. Nothing is mysterious about it. He died 7 years after the event. People die every day. If a group of spooks were capable of starting two wars and knocking down buildings you would think they would have been able to get to ole' Barry before he blew the lid off this whole thing, wouldn't you? But you'll ignore it, because it doesn't fit the narrative. Just like all the other "irrelevant" facts that you dismiss. The CIA is the know-all man behind the curtain, coy enough to enroll jihads in flight school years before in an effort to get "false evidence" against them, but they're so bumbling that they made errors on ole' Barry's death certificate? A claim, by the way, that is not backed up with any evidence. Just more slant and conjecture. You see, in all these alternative explanations, be it JFK, Moon Landing, Aliens, Las Vegas, 9/11, etc, the constant is that the CIA is capable of anything at times, and bumbling and sloppy at other times, depending on what is convenient for the tale.

Now, your turn. Here is your homework. Watch it, again and again, and you'll understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gySS-us_DQk

[redsox]

There's literally not a single trace of truth in this post. But as long as you feel better now I'm happy too.

You're so vaaain,, i bet you think this thread is about you...... you're so va a a a ain, i bet you think this thread is about you, bout you, bout you.

Contribute substance or quiet down. Don't beg for attention. Its unbecoming.

[fabiodriven]

I watched the Barry Jennings and Michael Hess video. Barry Jennings told about three different stories. He is telling the truth each time. At least he is telling his truth. He's not lying. In the first clip, right after a skyscraper fell on him, he was a little shaken up. I think that that is understandable considering the circumstances. He mixes up the 8th floor and the 6th floor. He also mixes up how he was saved and who it was that saved him. If you gather witness statements from any group of people about any subject, there are bound to be variations, especially regarding traumatic events. As for his death, he was an overweight, older black guy. Statistically speaking, diabetes is about a zillion times more likely the culprit than CIA murder. But the shadow company camp will ignore all of this. And let me expound on his death a little more. There is ZERO evidence of any wrong doing. ZERO. Yet this hit piece, slanted video changes the tone of the video and the music to make it all seem suspicious. "Barry died mysteriously" Really? What exactly is mysterious about it? Nothing. Nothing is mysterious about it. He died 7 years after the event. People die every day. If a group of spooks were capable of starting two wars and knocking down buildings you would think they would have been able to get to ole' Barry before he blew the lid off this whole thing, wouldn't you? But you'll ignore it, because it doesn't fit the narrative. Just like all the other "irrelevant" facts that you dismiss. The CIA is the know-all man behind the curtain, coy enough to enroll jihads in flight school years before in an effort to get "false evidence" against them, but they're so bumbling that they made errors on ole' Barry's death certificate? A claim, by the way, that is not backed up with any evidence. Just more slant and conjecture. You see, in all these alternative explanations, be it JFK, Moon Landing, Aliens, Las Vegas, 9/11, etc, the constant is that the CIA is capable of anything at times, and bumbling and sloppy at other times, depending on what is convenient for the tale.

Now, your turn. Here is your homework. Watch it, again and again, and you'll understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gySS-us_DQk

I'm done with your excuses. If you refuse to see the truth that's on you, but until you have seen what the American Institute of Architects has to say, you have seen nothing. You are not viewing that video because you are scared to, plain and simple. You've been stalling, misleading, attempting to change the subject... enough is enough. Don't watch the video Dan, but admit you're scared.

If you choose to watch, you will hear from engineers, architects, widows of the deceased, firefighters, US military personnel trained in demolition, civilian demolition experts... and on, and on, and on. You saw how Red Rider felt about it after he saw it. Admit you're scared to watch and you're off the hook Dan.

If you think that I think planes never hit those building I have no idea where you got that. I have never said that, not once. You live in a make-believe world Dan, a false reality, and you're afraid to see what you're a part of.

Damon I asked you not to post in this thread. You have made all of your words irrelevant and that was of your own doing. You're wasting everyone's time in this thread and continuing to muck it.

[redsox]

BKM, Outstanding video about the Pentagon plane.

[fabiodriven]

BKM, Outstanding video about the Pentagon plane.

It's really not at all. It doesn't prove anything scientifically. Dan, you live in a fake reality.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171011/d261beb8aaef35a766a0ac5fe536957c.png

[redsox]

Explained....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT9-jLESHA8

Double not, its interesting to me how this video is cut. Also, how many time he says "i don't know." Also, despite the 8 minutes of resume we get from Major General Stubblebine, we get no such resume from his bride, who's theory he has taken up cause for. It seems Mrs. Stubblebine wears the pants in the family. Also, no mention of his retirement date, or his basis of knowledge or access to relevant crucial information other than google BS.

john, you've posted over 20 videos in this thread alone. More homework for me, without answers to even the first of my questions. I can't watch the videos any faster than they will play, and, while i'm watching them, you post more. More homework. When a "debunked" video gets posted, you say, "no science" and move on. I'll keep watching while I wait for your answers. I seem to remember a time when Barnett was chastised for constant google cut and paste.

[redsox]

I want to take a second here, as we get very deep in the weeds on 9/11, to mention that my deeper point and purpose for discussing this at all is that all hypothesis proponents seem to follow the same narrative no matter the subject matter. Its like a playbook of illusion. Its a supplanting of reality with sordid mystery that only they and their ilk can understand, thus giving them a manner of control over a situation that is otherwise unpalatable.

[fabiodriven]

Double not, its interesting to me how this video is cut. Also, how many time he says "i don't know." Also, despite the 8 minutes of resume we get from Major General Stubblebine, we get no such resume from his bride, who's theory he has taken up cause for. It seems Mrs. Stubblebine wears the pants in the family. Also, no mention of his retirement date, or his basis of knowledge or access to relevant crucial information other than google BS.

john, you've posted over 20 videos in this thread alone. More homework for me, without answers to even the first of my questions. I can't watch the videos any faster than they will play, and, while i'm watching them, you post more. More homework. When a "debunked" video gets posted, you say, "no science" and move on. I'll keep watching while I wait for your answers. I seem to remember a time when Barnett was chastised for constant google cut and paste.

Dan I'm going to double check but if memory serves me, since this conversation has started in the Vegas thread I have posted three videos. I have had to post the same one multiple times because it keeps getting brought up, asked about, or overlooked. Forget about Barry Jennings for the moment and you're right, that video is open to interpretation. BKM's video had no science involved and a lot of computer animation. Computer animation can be a blessing and a curse. It can be great for helping in other instances, however it needs to be remembered that when physics is involved, there is no replacement for real world experiments. I would put money on what's supposed to be an airliner in BKM's video not being an airliner at all. It just looks far too small to me, but as I said, that's very poor quality video and I'm not perfect. Just doesn't look big enough to be a 767 to me.

Dan, please. You are repeating yourself over and over again, "homework, homework, homework", but you ignore my replies to that. Are you going to consult me when you need a house built or an engineer? Are you going to go to a CSI lab to solve a murder or would you ask me? What I am doing, for the umpteenth time, is showing you experts, people who know what they are talking about, and if you get past your fears and take the plunge, you too can view what not one, NOT ONE person has come back and disproven or dismissed. Therein lies your opportunity. You can be the one to point out to me that this is wrong, that your version (which defies the laws of physics) of what happened on 9/11 is right.

No bullshit, not defending Damon in any manner, shape, or form, but he is full of rage because he knows what happened. Bill is mad as well. I am hiding my anger. It is unpatriotic in my view as a United States veteran who has and would again put his life on the line for this country that people such as yourself would go along with such an unrealistic farce, it is an insult to me personally. It is to the point that people with our view keep our mouths shut for the sake of preserving friendships, but my patience wears very thin with the stupid American public. I always looked at you as a friend, never looked at your occupation, but in this conversation full of your filibustering I see where you come from. You are one of them. I will be a patriot, and you can pretend this happy little place is good for you to raise another servant. Whether you appreciate it or not, I will fight for what is right, and I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it because that is what is honest and what is right, and more and more people see that every day.

Once again, there are a slew of architects, engineers, widows, firefighters, US military personnel, demolition experts, and physicists who are all asking very nicely for your audience. No more filibustering and we can ask other questions later (one at a time), but you must see this or I'll ask that you cease posting in my thread. I'm really sick of your attempts to distract and derail, and I've had enough of your filibustering. I know that's what you've been taught but it doesn't work on me buddy, and I'm sick of the attempts. I'm not a suspect, I am part of the solution. You'll either become part of it as well or you will be in my way.

Please, put your fears behind you- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg&t=1100s

[redsox]

Damon has contributed nothing. If he's angry, thats on him. He should be able to act like an adult and debate, as you have. If dissenting views are not welcome in your thread John, then its just propaganda. And I notice in your last post that when your facts get scrutinized, you go to the personal stuff. It makes sense. Defend on all fronts. Like I said at the outset, you're my friend and nothing said on here will change that. I hope you feel the same. I'm telling you how i feel about this subject, no punches pulled, because I respect you and I think you can handle it. I'm not trying to sway you. I know I won't. I'm just debating.

I'll admit, i'm unsure of the order of importance in which you rank the videos. Please clarify so we are not talking about two different things. Should i watch the one above first? I have a few hours down time right now. Which would you suggest i watch or re-watch?

[fabiodriven]

The one last posted above that I've been asking you to watch over and over again.

[sledcrazyinCT]

If the people of Iraq one day say "Let's invade America for (whatever) reason", and they were capable, and subsequently landed on our shores, how would you react? If Iraqi tanks were rolling up your road, would you go out and shake their hands? Or welcome them with open arms? Let us not forget, we were in Iraq for weapons of mass destruction, were we not? What happened with those? If that was our reason for being there and they turned out not to exist, then why did we not turn around and go home?

IMO the fact that Iraq had weeks to stash their weapons in other Middle Eastern countries is the fault of UN being spineless, being required to provide advance notice of their 'inspections'
I do recall watching on television truck convoys leaving Baghdad. What exactly was being transported across the border? Saddam wasn't just moving empty trucks into Syria, but exactly what was in the truck beds is not known with certainty if WMD or not. People who can claim with certainty what was moved out of Iraq do not know 100% for sure what was shipped out because no inspectors were allowed to check as it was taking place.

I might even suggest that those chemical weapons used earlier this year by Syrian govt was trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro Saddam hid given the three weeks heads up by U.N. inspectors before they went into Iraq

[atc007]

Dan, what happened to tower #7 WTC ? How is it that a pull that would take the best demolition teams on earth over a year to prepare ,happened in under 3 hours? Yet on 9/11 5:20 ish PM, live, I and the world watched as the owner said they were going to "pull" tower 7. And please,,,do not even try and direst me to the NIST report that the government did !!! Fire :)... " A NEW and unheard of kind of fire " !! From papers and desks ;) What happened to tower 7 Dan? Fabs and I will be quacks forever. That is ZERO problem to either one of us. We own it. I want to hear from you what happened to 7?

[redsox]

OK,,, here goes. I've done my homework. I watched the video,, twice. Once with a completely open mind, not at all critical, and once with a critical eye. Let me start by saying that I can see now why you were espousing this video over the others. Its of better quality, it has better science, and generally makes its points in a far better and more serious way than the match stick and tile guy. It brings up good questions about building 7. Building 7, building 7, building 7. The last great hope of the Hypothesis Proponents. But lets not jump ahead. Lets start at the beginning. Less than a minute and a half into the video there is mention of false imprisonment of American Citizens without legal representation or probable cause based on policy such as the Patriot Act. Yet no evidence is given to support this statement. It is a statement that I disagree with, and they chose to open the film with it. I found that curious. Its what I would call a "tone setter." Just a little nugget to get the viewer thinking the "right" way. Its not really on topic, but i felt it worthy of mention. Immediately, the movie opens and its clear that its not an objective look at facts. Rather, the film is a proponent of an established theory from the very beginning. That is fine, and it doesn't in any way discount any of the science presented within the film. Its a biased presentation rather than an exploration of science. That said, lets move forward. Now, within this thread John, you have stated that "10,000 scientists agree" and you site their credentials. All worthy, learned people. Engineers and scientists and experts of every kind. Fine. Except its deceptive speak. In fact, 10,000 scientists do not agree. In reality 10,000 scientists signed a petition for further study and research. Taking the leap that they agree on any outcome of any research is disingenuous and erroneous. But that is what the viewer is lead to believe. That everyone that was curious about the subject about how the towers fell are all in lock step with the film makers theory. In the films own words (9:26 mark) "this is not science, its trying to prove preconceived ideas."

Now, I won't continue a minute by minute nit-pick of the film. I'll lose you all, and you'll disregard the rest of what I type. Also, I'll admit, that i cannot. The film raises interest. The building 7 stuff especially. But, please keep engaged as i point out the fatal flaws in the film, as i feel they highlight my main point of Hypothesis Proponents seeing an Indian behind every tree. The film is itself a contradiction. It starts out by building evidence of explosions. Eye witness accounts, testimony from demolition experts, video, the whole 9 yards, all neatly wound up and packaged to show you that the Government, not "someone" or "something", but THE GOVERNMENT exploded those fvckers to smithereens. It repeats and repeats about the buildings falling in their own footprints. Hammering this home as if its an indictment in and of itself. The 24 minute mark, "numerous explosions" "waves of explosions." Then, almost as if its betraying itself, the film reverses itself. Thermite! Thermite! I'm sure it was Thermite! (31:53 mark) Tom Sullivan, explosives technician and mustache expert explains to the non-believers that Thermite was used. The film goes all-in on this. Thermite in the debris. Thermite, Thermite, Thermite. Its like two different people made the film, not knowing what the other was pitching. Thermite, you see, as Tommy S points out, does not explode. Its an incendiary. A reaction, not an explosion. So, are the people in the beginning of the movie liars? is their expertise to be questioned? How about the 26 minute mark? Good old Jody Gibbs, an architect of 35 years, explains gravity to us, and then tells us how "large, multi-ton beams were hurled hundreds of yards laterally." Well Jody, which is it? Did the building fall in its own footprint, or did it blow apart? You can't have it both ways. You can't. Now, you've probably had enough of my critique. I would bet that you tune out. But, i'll continue. If you look behind many of these experts, at the rooms that they are in and the books that they surround themselves with, you begin to see an agenda. (34:45 mark) The speaker has the Al Franken book, "Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them." I own that book. I read that book. Calling it a piece of dogshite would be an insult to my dog. I bought that book awhile back in an attempt to analyze my own thinking. Get a different perspective. Its a Michael Moore style anti-bush stylized hit piece that lacks any backbone or substance. But, lets not get sidetracked. The movie should take its own advise. Advie given by Leslie Youn, high-rise architect and firefighter, who says "lets look at this objectively, lets look at the evidence, not these fabricated computer models, hearsay, and all these pre-determined conclusions." Anyone who believe that this film didn't have a predetermined conclusion is not watching the same movie. in fact, the real GIANT PRE-DETERMINED LEAP the movie makes comes at about the 44 minute mark. Dr. Hopper equates "these truths" with accepting Government involvement. Does this movie anywhere lend any credence to any government involvement? Did i miss it? Twice? Lets say, for arguments sake, (and arguments sake only) that everything in the film is solid gold irrefutable fact. Where does it say that the Government did it? You see, thats the audience. the film doesnt need to say it. Everyone watching is already determined that the Government is the culprit. The Government and "them". You know "them." The "they" that are out there with "them." Responsible for all the ills of the world. "They", who control us, and are to blame for everything bad. Mickey would call "them" the devil or satan. Others call "them" the Government. Still others refer to "them" as the Illuminati, or the free masons, or the NWO. Ironically, the film touches on cognitive dissonance. Which, incidentally, is what I was accusing the Hypothesis Theory crowd of earlier. Supplanting reality for a palatable, controllable alternate reality. I agree with Robert Griffin, who says at the 53:10 mark that "not pursuing the truth about 9/11 disrespects the value of the people who died." Thats why i'm debating this. Thats why i stand where I stand.

Oh ya, Building 7 = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbPpK-oWdYc

[atc007]

I guess it would be true that truthers have nothing to hold onto except building 7 had it not been for..


There was no plane,or people in Shenksville PA. There was a hole in the dirt with zero parts of anything...EXCEPT! 3 paid actors saying they saw a plane free falling tail first upside down and A red bandana and passport from one of the hi jackers!

Dick Cheney had 99% of strike aircraft assigned to Canada/Alaska/and grounded for "war games" on the AM of 911.

Dick Cheney had ALL,,not some. ALL of the defense systems turned off at the pentagon the AM of 911.

When asked to turn them back on when a plane was headed into DC. Over an hour after the 1st plane went into the towers. Cheney said .. NO ! The only camera left on caught a missile coming in, that has now been doctored very poorly to resemble a plane. The only part actually pictured at the bomb hole,,I mean airliner entry hole,,was the engine of a missile.was a part from a missile.

The planted engine in the street of NYC was from a different maker than UA uses. Pratt Whiteny VS GE. Paramount to us looking in and seeing a 84 Tecate engine in the street after the Gvt tells us it was a 87 Big Red.

All radar,,,,/military and civilian was littered with fake bogies all over their screens from Cheneys war games the AM of 911. Making it virtually impossible for all seasoned veterans in ATC to try and track anything.


Dick Cheneys one company Haliburton has made a trillion Dollars since 911. That is Trillions with a T. Stop and gander at that fact for a while.

Martin Bush's demolition company working inside the WTC buildings 26 months prior,and up to the day of 911. Complete floors shut off to access months at a time
Thermite spewing melting LAVA out the sides of BOTH trade towers long after the aircraft went in. The jet fuel was burnt upon explosion.Jet fuel burns black. Any fires were smoldering,not infernos.

Explosions,in the elevator shafts,and at ground levels. All recorded multiple times.

1600 degree pools of burning lava, 6 weeks after 911, 5 stories underground. Buried in the rubble,underground. Why?? Because thermite makes it's own O2. Because the elevator shafts needed to be severed to drop these beasts.

The countless firefighters and policemen telling their first hand accounts of the buildings being demolished. "pulled", prepared demolitions.

If you truly believe these buildings got so hot they melted....!!!! LMAO,,,sorry,,,,, How did again,,, a red bandana and passport get found in the rubble? Rubble I might add,that burnt the boots off workers DAILY from the heat. Everyone there went through at least one pair of boots a day from the thermite burning,,I mean,,,heat. Or was that the concrete and papers burning to produce that heat? Remember and watch,, the jet fuel was burnt in the initial impact explosions and within a couple minutes after at the very most.


If all 3 WTC trade towers fell over because they melted.....LMAO,,,,Sorry again,,I apologize,,,, Then how, with the exact same fire and aircraft that hit the pentagon,,,LMAO,,sorry,,,.. Why were there white ,unburnt papers surrounding the hole at the penatgon? Books,papers,desks,chairs,,curtains,,untouched by fire,not disrupted at all,not hardly even dusty??


I don't have all night,and frankly. The last 2 days have been by far my worst 2 on this forum in all my time here. Knappy and you break my heart. I completely fail to understand how any human being can WATCH... not SAY they watched,,and it was reputed!!!!...No,,,. Actually WATCH,,all the evidence, and sail right on ahead with their lives dismissing what their brain has seen. Yes,it is scary. Your brain knows what happened,so embrace it and live your life accordingly.


How did 7 pancake in on itself ? Why were there explosions before it fell? Why were multiple reporters reporting it had collapsed while it was still standing in the background? Many reporters,up to 15 minutes prior. Why were the other reporters reporting it was going to collapse? Why did the OWNER of the building say live on tv after 5pm that they were going to "pull building 7 " Pull, being what demolition crews call the demo of a building..Why did that same owner, the month prior ,up his insurance on the WTC towers by 800% and change his policy to say insured for terrorist attacks by jetliners?

What was in WTC 7 that was so important..??!!! Well, anyone that cares can find that out too.



So, I ask again. Please. Since it is after all,,,,,,the only thing that we that are awake, have....;).... How did the 47 story tall WTC 7 building fall down?................ I read everything you wrote above. I saw a ton of distraction and deflection :( . I did however miss how building 7 fell down. Should be a simple answer because after all... Fab and I are batsh!t crazy folk.

[fabiodriven]

I'm very disappointed as well. It's OK though, I'm used to it. I'd like to just concern myself with, well, myself, and I go through spurts where I do that. I'd love to just stop caring and I'm going to attempt to do so again. We are in deep trouble.

[atc007]

Everythings ok,,,I did not just see that......Everythings ok,,,everythings ok,,,,NO, don't show me truth! It can't be,,it just can't be !! They would never do that ! ,,,But then,,,,where DID all the people on those flights REALLY GO?? NO,, it can't be,,,everythings ok,,...........On with my life..... Boggles my mind ;)

[redsox]

Did they explode, or melt? Was it explosives, or Thermite? Was it for money, oil, power, insurance? Or was it the jews slamming the arabs good? Or, was it whatever you want it to be? I spent some time on that yesterday. There are no answers from 007. No answers from John. You just want to continue controlling the dialogue with half truths and "mysterious circumstances." Pick any single issue I brought up and discuss it. Any one. But you won't. Its back to calls of blindness and sheep.

[fabiodriven]

No you are no longer blind Dan, still a sheep, yes. I know what you saw, and I know you're not stupid. If someone doesn't have the capacity to grasp it that's one thing, but you're worse. You're a liar. You are lying to yourself and in turn the rest of us, but you're used to that. You lie for a living. We can all see who you are now. We are not stupid, and and when you lie to us and truly expect us to believe it, you insult our intelligence, and you're insulting our intelligence in a public forum where others can be influenced to play along with your lie, which in my eyes makes you part of the problem as well as an accomplice. Keep telling yourself you're the good guy and life is OK, nothing to see here.

I can pick your post apart with ease and answer your questions one by one as I've been doing from the beginning, but you're a lost cause. Red tape, distractions, delays, subject changes, filibustering, all wrapped in the end with a little bow and lies. Sound familiar? That's our government and how they operate.

That's also you and how you operate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[redsox]

Insult away John. Insults are not responses. Let your ideas and theories overcome the criticism. You see my friend, that is the nature of science. It must stand up to scrutiny.

[El Camexican]

I wish the hundreds of people alleged to have been on those flights would be found

I wish the people that remotely flew the planes and fired the missil would speak out

I wish the guys that setup the chemicals and explosives to bring the buildings down would talk

I wish building 7 could be explained

Too many questions, not enough answers

I hope both sides of this will keep their minds open until all the questions are answered

[fabiodriven]

Insult away John. Insults are not responses. Let your ideas and theories overcome the criticism. You see my friend, that is the nature of science. It must stand up to scrutiny.

If you find the truth insulting then you should alter your reality, and not with substances. I don't make a habit of keeping friends with those who stray from the truth and further my country's downward spiral.

[atc007]

I wish the hundreds of people alleged to have been on those flights would be found

I wish the people that remotely flew the planes and fired the missil would speak out

I wish the guys that setup the chemicals and explosives to bring the buildings down would talk

I wish building 7 could be explained

Too many questions, not enough answers

I hope both sides of this will keep their minds open until all the questions are answered

When they do,,and some will. They will be ignored and belittled exactly as any other truth that is too hard to digest. 7 was explained,,, Redsox posted the video.. It was hit by debris when the twins fell. Of course, the 911 commission,, AKA, the govt,,, NIST report,says it was a never before seen fire phenomenon. Have a great day all. I'm done here ;)

[atc007]

I woke up this morning thinking about how fvcked we are. Glamy is right. The hordes of soccer moms and sensitive dads putting their useless offspring on a pedestal and applauding every time they blow their nose. People having babies just to have a living doll to dress up. Brand names are affordable for children. Keep punchin' that clock and having your blood harvested. Keep borrowing 100k for a house that imprisons you to a particular community only to pay 300k back to the bank. Keep buying a new trash vehicle every 3 years so your friends think you're cool at your 20 year reunion. Keep spending a large portion of your money on guns and beer. Keep watching pro sports. Definitely keep having babies because that's what locks you in to slavery the easiest.

Gosh,I hate having to agree with 90% of that... Adoption is one beautiful answer. It has rewarded me beyond words.

[redsox]

John, I don't want you to be mad. You said you wanted the truth so i've told you my thoughts. This is a subject we will likely always disagree on. I'm content with that. You've got nothing to prove to me. i'm happy to continue the discussion or stop, whatever you'd like. That goes for 007, Glamy, Damon, Sled, El Cam, BKM, whoever else. 17 pages of (mostly) civil discussion. Not bad in these parts, i think.

[bkm]

Man, I apologize for fvcking things up for you Damon with my useless children and house n shite. Hopefully they learn to swim.



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[bkm]

Oh gimme a break. Your intentional misinterpretation is a tactic I'm familiar with so it's not gonna make my heart bleed.

What I'm saying is that adults are the ones producing real and usable goods yet these days children are waited on hand and foot and told they are capable of anything even though they don't even try to really learn skills.

Must have struck a chord though.

Other than the self deprecated passive aggression I'm sure your kids are being raised just fine, sir.Whew, I thought I was messing things up for you. Cool, glad we can be friends again.

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[redsox]

Messing things up for THEIR kids is what people should worry about. Our generation will be the last to make it out alive unless we begin to manage the population.

Said before and I will say again. Took from the beginning of mankind til 1900, a million years, to make it to 1 billion. Took from 1900 to now, 117 years, to make it to 7 billion. That's bad.

Boy, i hope i'm in the "we" column instead of the "they" column when the population management program begins. Fingers crossed.

[redsox]

I assume your dimly lit response refers to something ridiculous such as genocide. Silly.

No need to assume, that is what i thought you were referring to. Please enlighten me, because I don't understand. Are you saying the human species should ignore one of its most basic drives,, a drive shared with nearly every creature on this planet, and not procreate and experience the joys of parenthood, all in a mass attempt to spite the economy? Spell it out simply for me Damon. I can't keep up.

[fabiodriven]

John, I don't want you to be mad. You said you wanted the truth so i've told you my thoughts. This is a subject we will likely always disagree on. I'm content with that. You've got nothing to prove to me. i'm happy to continue the discussion or stop, whatever you'd like. That goes for 007, Glamy, Damon, Sled, El Cam, BKM, whoever else. 17 pages of (mostly) civil discussion. Not bad in these parts, i think.

I care about our species and you would be included in that group. I care for my ideals more than I do you personally, and not just because our views differ. I love many people who do not share my ideals.

I once had the most beautiful woman in the world with the nice house and the great jobs. If I'd have been able to hang on to her, the kids, yay life is awesome, I'd be playing make-believe as well. I would pretend all is well and even if this is a fake reality, I would have been OK with it. If I could have done that, I would have, but everything happens for a reason. Life has not been like that for me, and I have no reason to pretend.

What I do not appreciate is you lying to yourself, and in turn, us. I do think you're lying. You are refuting the laws of physics and science. Your whole post trying to discredit is absolutely ridiculous and it's unfortunate that there might be people out there who read and believe it.

Your opinion doesn't matter when you're talking about physics Dan.

If you can see and choose to pretend as opposed to standing up for what is right, then we have more than a difference in opinion regardless of how you feel.

[El Camexican]

Open question:

In the videos which appear to show a jet going right through the building and coming out the other side, why is it that what appears to be a solid object that just survived barnstorming a steel building suddenly turns to dust once its exited the building? I don't see a flash of any kind to explain it exploding, it just becomes an arching dust cloud. Should the nose cone not have continued on in the same shape as it exited the building as it descended downward?

What am I missing?

[atc12]

Its almost funny to think some people think planes turned these massive sky scrapers to dust. Literally dust... One of them wasn't even hit but still fell at free fall. This isn't rocket science. The news from that terrible day had a reporter reading her script about 7 falling and the building was still standing behind her. Free fall requires no resistance which rules out the official story of lies. Fact!

[El Camexican]

The news from that terrible day had a reporter reading her script about 7 falling and the building was still standing behind her.

She probably had a "Hillary becomes first female President" video ready last year too.

[bkm]

We have an engineer in the house. I'm curious to hear Barn's take on all of this.

[fabiodriven]

Blessed be the forum which Jesus Christ frequents.

[Jesus]

Blessed be the forum which Jesus Christ frequents.

You called?

[redsox]

When I was a kid I watched the Standard Box Factory fire in Chelsea. Fugger was burnin' up good. I remember sitting in my cousin's Bronco II and watching the flames for hours. Finally, that som biach just fell down. It collapsed. It was only like maybe 6 stories, but it was a big building. Fire burned and burned and it just fell down.

[Bren_downe]

A brick and wood building? Probably built in the late 1800s or early nineteen hundreds? How does that compare to a steel and concrete building built in the 80s?

[tripledog]

A brick and wood building? Probably built in the late 1800s or early nineteen hundreds? How does that compare to a steel and concrete building built in the 80s?

I know this one. What is "they are both buildings".

[El Camexican]

I know this one. What is "they are both buildings".

Alex approves of this post.

[tripledog]

Alex approves of this post.

Yeah, but I am quite sure fabs won't.

[fabiodriven]

I do take this stuff extremely serious but you guys are a friggin hoot for sure.

[sledcrazyinCT]

I assume your dimly lit response refers to something ridiculous such as genocide. Silly.

No I think the manufactured ISIS is coming to Merica Dude via Country route 91 ....Wonder if they know how to swim? How'd the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro they get here otherwise? A 767 floen without a license.... Maybe you should tell them to not procreate cant have too many right....Imagine the one thing all species do on this planet, but some species are asexual and can do themselves at will what category do fall into dude?

[sledcrazyinCT]

Dude 45 has your back he keeps after rocket man and he is going to put more radiation into the pacific than Japs broken reactors :BounceGuess where the biggest group of humans live? Make sure you eat some sushi when you out swimming

246960

[Jesus]

How sad to see my sheep bicker over nothing. All are right yet all are wrong. It is evil that blinds you. Worry not over the details of the dark acts of man, for they will entrap your minds in their cesspool of sin. You are but of the flesh and should leave blame and revenge to our father, for only he can cleanse the Earth of evil. Forgive those who are puppets to the Devil, for they are weak and without morals. They will pay when it is time, not now, but soon. The Kingdom of Heaven awaits all who are pure and no man shall harm another in God's house.

Release the hate and anger within you, for it smothers your hearts and sickens your souls. Let both be free to live and love thy brother.

Forgive thy fellow man for he knows not what he’s done saith the Lord.

[El Camexican]

Imagine the one thing all species do on this planet, but some species are asexual and can do themselves at will what category do fall into dude?

With only two and a half months left in the year that might be the funniest post of 2017

[sledcrazyinCT]

246961246962246963246968246969

[Arky-X]

How sad to see my sheep bicker over nothing. All are right yet all are wrong. It is evil that blinds you. Worry not over the details of the dark acts of man, for they will entrap your minds in their cesspool of sin. You are but of the flesh and should leave blame and revenge to our father, for only he can cleanse the Earth of evil. Forgive those who are puppets to the Devil, for they are weak and without morals. They will pay when it is time, not now, but soon. The Kingdom of Heaven awaits all who are pure and no man shall harm another in God's house.

Release the hate and anger within you, for it smothers your hearts and sickens your souls. Let both be free to live and love thy brother.

Forgive thy fellow man for he knows not what he’s done saith the Lord.


Amen
Whether it was the Mericun Govment or jihadist hijackers, those that are responsible have the blood on their hands. Lots of time, effort, research, debate and name calling in and out of this thread but in the end the only questions that will be asked is did you love the Lord your God and keep His commands.

Peace!

[redsox]

A quick Google search shows the building you speak of had hardwood floors throughout. Yea I would be certain it burned to the ground.


It collapsed Dude. Collapsed in its own footprint. Open your eyes Dude!! Don't believe what they're telling you! The fat cats over at Standard Box,,, those silver spooned fvckers had the place insured to the tits! And the sprinklers failed. Failed!!! You expect me to believe that??? Tell me another one. Plus, the place employed over a hundred people but only two were in the building at the start of the fire!!! Pretty mysterious if you ask me!! Now, conveniently, there 74 units and a park being built. Follow the money!! Open your eyes!! The builders are a group named Mitchell Properties, who have their offices at PARK PLAZA!! PARK PLAZA DUDE! You'd better learn to swim! It gets better, the guy who approved the project, a city manager named Jay Ash, was promoted to the Governors Council chief of urban development right after. Except for one inconvenient truth. Jay Ash is a Democrat. The Governor, Charlie Baker, is a REPUBLICAN!! Now, why would a Republican Governor appoint a Democrat to his council. It STINKS!! But its all controlled Dude! Its all there in black and white if you just open your eyes. When Ash was running for office, his opponents pointed out that his associate, I guy named Voke, was under investigation by the US Attorney's office for corruption. But not to worry, Ash made sure to include a cushy new office for none other than THE FBI in one of his first projects in chelsea. Hey, thats how it works. You scratch my back and i'll scratch yours. AmmIrit?!?!?! Now, do you still ant me to believe that that box factory just burned??

[El Camexican]

Open question:

In the videos which appear to show a jet going right through the building and coming out the other side, why is it that what appears to be a solid object that just survived barnstorming a steel building suddenly turns to dust once its exited the building? I don't see a flash of any kind to explain it exploding, it just becomes an arching dust cloud. Should the nose cone not have continued on in the same shape as it exited the building as it descended downward?

What am I missing?

I'm a little surprised that no one is jumping up an offering an explanation to this question. It is one of the main focal points in at least one of the videos posted. According to the narrative the viewer is supposed to believe that this proves that either a missile, or jet with a reinforced nosecone was exiting the building.

If I am to except that, then I must except that it also disintegrated after it finished tearing through the building and exiting. I find that to be an impossibility. Solid point bullet does not change shape unless it impact something. If it passes through an object any distortion to its shape will occur within the object, not after it exits into the air again.

That tells me that what I see in the video can only be one of two things. It can either be an optical illusion created by gas, dust, or some other debris exiting the building under pressure caused by the impact, or it could be that the video I was watching has been altered.

If in fact it is an optical illusion it reminds us that our eyes can play tricks on us which can be attested to by anybody who's ever going to a good magic show. However if it was doctored that brings into question the validity of everything else in that video.

I'm not trying to focus in on any other aspect of the event with this question, so for a moment forget building seven, forget what Dick Cheney was doing that day, forget what the Pentagon it looked like. I just want to hear an explanation of how what appears to be a solid object can disintegrate in mid air.

[atc007]

[QUOTE=redsox;1462204]It collapsed Dude. Collapsed in its own footprint. Open your eyes Dude!! Don't believe what they're telling you! The fat cats over at Standard Box,,, those silver spooned fvckers had the place insured to the tits! And the sprinklers failed. Failed!!! You expect me to believe that??? Tell me another one. Plus, the place employed over a hundred people but only two were in the building at the start of the fire!!! Pretty mysterious if you ask me!! Now, conveniently, there 74 units and a park being built. Follow the money!! Open your eyes!! The builders are a group named Mitchell Properties, who have their offices at PARK PLAZA!! PARK PLAZA DUDE! You'd better learn to swim! It gets better, the guy who approved the project, a city manager named Jay Ash, was promoted to the Governors Council chief of urban development right after. Except for one inconvenient truth. Jay Ash is a Democrat. The Governor, Charlie Baker, is a REPUBLICAN!! Now, why would a Republican Governor appoint a Democrat to his council. It STINKS!! But its all controlled Dude! Its all there in black and white if you just open your eyes. When Ash was running for office, his opponents pointed out that his associate, I guy named Voke, was under investigation by the US Attorney's office for corruption. But not to worry, Ash made sure to include a cushy new office for none other than THE FBI in one of his first projects in chelsea. Hey, thats how it works. You scratch my back and i'll scratch yours. AmmIrit?!?!?! Now, do you still ant me to believe that that box factory just burned??[/QUO

These responses are hands down the saddest thing I have personally seen on this forum.. Wow, just ,wow. JMHO,,,carry on.

[fabiodriven]

Dan I know you grew up in the city.

Wood, made from trees, is flammable. That means it burns. I actually cut trees down with my saw and bring them in my house to make a fire in order to heat my home.

In the past, I'd run out of wood, so I switched to burning concrete and steel. It didn't pan out so well. As it turns out, those two substances are not flammable.

[atc007]

I'm a little surprised that no one is jumping up an offering an explanation to this question. It is one of the main focal points in at least one of the videos posted. According to the narrative the viewer is supposed to believe that this proves that either a missile, or jet with a reinforced nosecone was exiting the building.

If I am to except that, then I must except that it also disintegrated after it finished tearing through the building and exiting. I find that to be an impossibility. Solid point bullet does not change shape unless it impact something. If it passes through an object any distortion to its shape will occur within the object, not after it exits into the air again.

That tells me that what I see in the video can only be one of two things. It can either be an optical illusion created by gas, dust, or some other debris exiting the building under pressure caused by the impact, or it could be that the video I was watching has been altered.

If in fact it is an optical illusion it reminds us that our eyes can play tricks on us which can be attested to by anybody who's ever going to a good magic show. However if it was doctored that brings into question the validity of everything else in that video.

I'm not trying to focus in on any other aspect of the event with this question, so for a moment forget building seven, forget what Dick Cheney was doing that day, forget what the Pentagon it looked like. I just want to hear an explanation of how what appears to be a solid object can disintegrate in mid air.

If I had the answers, I would have been dead long ago. What I know is, a 767 is a very big girl. As is whatever plane went into the towers. Anyone unfamiliar with how they did the switch,look up and study the Northwoods project. There are countless,and I mean,,countless videos documenting the ATC from that day.. To say it was complete blind chaos is a huge understatement. NEADS screens were littered with false bogies from the war games.They do however have the overlaps of the switches and flight 11 in flight 25 minutes AFTER it flew into WTC..( the first plane to "supposedly hit"} . It was tracked by 3 different airports. I would have to brush up,, JFK, DC and Ohio, I think..It's transponder tracking toward Ohio,Indiana..You have seen the close ups of the actual footage on ABC,CBS etc from that day? They zoom in and very clearly show a very large projectile under the belly of that plane. These are not doctored or manipulated. That is NOT a passenger aircraft. Whatever that was, the military has had for far more decades back than this, using self destructing ordinance. To time the first explosion AS the plane was hitting, a split second before the nose hit,it surely is no stretch of the imagination to think that whatever was under the belly of that plane self destructed in say,2- 3 seconds from impact.Flying at whatever speed it was. That is a lot of force.

It is 100% undisputable there was an explosion before the plane touched the building. Whatever that was,combined with the force of that jumbo jet+ it's fuel, + that explosion is a lot of force. However that hole came to be on the other side????????????? :) All of that pressure was going to take the road of least resistance to get out. Every drop of the force was headed that direction. I guess I haven't seen the exact video you're referring too,or maybe I have.. And like Fabs, this is all rusty stuff to me. I did spend a few hours Tuesday watching some newer docs,both for and against common sense and reality. Unfortunately for me, I have zero choice but to exist in 110% reality... BTW,,, you do know that both of the UA liners supposedly destroyed in the towers have been photographed in use since 2001, in 2003 in Ohio,and 3 or 4 other occasions. The exact tail numbers of those planes. Is what it is. Anyone with a brain the size of a bird can figure out the basics of that day. The older this gets, the more it wreaks. Again, no decent human should have or know the answers of all the logistics that went on.

[atc007]

Dan I know you grew up in the city.

Wood, made from trees, is flammable. That means it burns. I actually chop trees down with my saw and bring them in my house to make a fire in order to heat my home.

In the past, I'd run out of wood, so I switched to burning concrete and steel. It didn't pan out so well. As it turns out, those two substances are not flammable.

Life is short Fab,and Dude,,move on... :( ..lol

[Red Rider]

Ok, so what is the purpose of this thread? Let's assume you have successfully changed people's perception of what happened on 9/11, in that the attacks were orchestrated, and executed, by the US government. So, now what?

[El Camexican]

I`m glad you`re at least asking a question ......but why would you be trippin on that .......plane goes in whole ....... comes out as a little shrapnel ......two planes enter ......no plane leave .........no no no don`t forget what Rumsfeld said day before 2.3 TRILLION .........TRIL-LION ! ........unaccounted for ??.........get - da - fock - out - of - here !!! .......forgot to quote Elcabrone .......did you know Chicago = piss & sh!t in spanish ? I think i just don`t understand what Nico is asking but i want him know this is the LIE OF THE CENTURY !!! ......there is something else to consider .......Fabs first posted it ......free energy technology = pulverised those buildings to dust before they hit the ground ! .....it was not generated by heat .......this gov. is hiding the ability to disintegrate any mas into dust without heat .......the engineer said if the mass fell onto the seawall...... the bay would have flooded every first floor building in Manhattan that day ! ........now that is over the top .......An exhibition of power to teach the world how far .....THEY HAVE COME !

That's my point, they appear to come out the backside whole and then turn to shrapnel. Solids objects don't do that.

Another thing someone brought up; Bombs on the underside of the jets. Ok, no doubt, something fishy there, but then why use a puny missile on the Pentagon and not another jet? Again conflict, people are saying a jet can't do enough damage to a building and would have disintegrated when it hit the tower, but when one is alleged to have done exactly that when it hit the Pentagon it must have been a missile? Can't have it both ways guys.

I won't be able to access YouTube for the next two weeks, but I will find and post the video I'm referencing. Im not sure if the link is this thread, or if I was directed to it while watching a long from here. It's a slow motion clip played over and over showing the debris exiting the tower in the shape of the jet nose cone.

[fabiodriven]

Ok, so what is the purpose of this thread? Let's assume you have successfully changed people's perception of what happened on 9/11, in that the attacks were orchestrated, and executed, by the US government. So, now what?

Know the truth and spread the word. Realize the lie that is supposedly our freedom. Stand up for what is right.

[redsox]

I notice you're now avoiding the actual thread topic AND the reply to your last inquiries. Your tactic implies that you are just plain out of good defenses to your argument.

Take out your dictionary Dude, and look up "parable." While you're at it, look up "ignorant," because you showed us already that you don't know what the word means.

What I pointed out with the parable is how any event can be twisted if you use Hypothesis Proponent logic. Just like the vegas shooting will be twisted, and the next thing that comes up. It took me about five minutes to come up with that info on Standard Box. I can't believe you sheep don't think something is fishy there. Follow the money, man.. Learn to swim. Its all there, just open your eyes.

[El Camexican]

Actually i`d like a trial , court martial , sentencing , public humiliation .........and a complete overhaul of all government entities , including NASA , and all all all all facken secret technologies , alien or otherwiset divulged to public NOW ! ......no more secrets !

At the very least the missing pages from the report. I thought 45 was going to make them public?

Roswell, Kennedy, Unmasking by the last administration, why does drinking one can of beer make me piss three cans out? Mexanadians want answers!

[fabiodriven]

Take out your dictionary Dude, and look up "parable." While you're at it, look up "ignorant," because you showed us already that you don't know what the word means.

What I pointed out with the parable is how any event can be twisted if you use Hypothesis Proponent logic. Just like the vegas shooting will be twisted, and the next thing that comes up. It took me about five minutes to come up with that info on Standard Box. I can't believe you sheep don't think something is fishy there. Follow the money, man.. Learn to swim. Its all there, just open your eyes.

Dan I now seriously question your intelligence.

You're using a building built with wood in the 1800's as your parable to contrast three steel and concrete structures, the only three steel and concrete structures in the history of mankind to "collapse due to fire". Mind you only two of the three were even hit by planes. And you think you're making a point? That's an insult to the dead as well as the rest of the planet, our country, and our species as a whole.

You are a part of the propaganda machine and you are a liar. You have seen physical and scientific evidence that you choose to ignore, and you also choose to ignore the laws of physics. You are an accessory to me. There is nothing funny about any of this.

Your lack of intelligence shows when you spin up a little story like that and expect us to believe it. You're either not that smart, or you think we're stupid. I can assure you I as well as many of the others here are far too intelligent for your little "parable". If you don't understand how an investigation is conducted, you might want to brush up on that. The way it works is, you collect evidence first, then use the evidence and data to come to a conclusion about what happened. The exact opposite happened in this case and if you can't recognize that it's not only sad, but it makes me nervous. There are a lot of you out there, there are people of authority who think the way you do, and there are people out there who will turn their backs on their people in the face of adversity.

I like what Glamy hopes for. I hope for peace and understanding above all, but if for unfortunate reasons that does not come to fruition and the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro hits the fan, I look forward to glory in battle, and I'll be curious to see who is standing and where should that day come.

[redsox]

El Cam, I took a few minutes just now to try and look at the nose cone stuff, as it had never occurred to me to look before. What i found is that there is an entire camp of people that think there was nothing that impacted the buildings at all. That it was all an illusion. Man, I can't keep the theories straight. I'll look a little more at the nose cone stuff. Give me a little time.