200X engine experts

[Xpress]

Alright so last night I was cruising home with my buddy on our 200X's (just cruising, not running them balls to the walls or anything) when right before I turned on my street my engine lost all power and died on me. Sounded much like my XR200R's engine when it overheats (sounded like a gear grinding), so I sat and waited for about 20 minutes for it to cool enough to fire up and run home, except it didn't free up. Had to push it about 1/4 mile uphill to get it home, where i parked it for the night.

Come to find out it was still ceased in the morning, so I stripped the engine out of the bike and now have the topend all apart on my workbench. After I got the head off I pushed on the piston to see if it was stuck, and it slid right down. Put the kicker back on and it's like nothing was wrong :crazy::wondering:wondering:wondering Cranks up and down just fine, but there was no way I was going to put it back together without consulting more experienced gearheads.

Also I drained the oil, and barely anything came out, but it was THICK black- I had just done an oil change about a month ago with 10W-30 oil, and filled it up to the top of the dip stick line, so either it's burning oil, or it's sludged up inside.

Here's pictures:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/121/img5748cx.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5857/img5750y.jpg

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9577/img5759s.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5079/img5760p.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1079/img5761f.jpg

I am thinking I will need a set of new rings and then the gaskets?

http://dratv.com/strisetat.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-ATC-200X-1983-1984-1985-Complete-Gasket-Set-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5d2cc1e694QQitemZ40018 2863508QQptZMotorsQ5fATVQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_ 780wt_877

Also I'm wondering if anyone knows what cam this is:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2783/img5763z.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8691/img5764p.jpg

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7638/img5765s.jpg

The guy who sold it to me says it's an XR cam, but is there a way to tell??

[mykwillis]

sounds like you got it hot and you need a bore and piston too. not too sure why or how it got hot. i'm interested to see what everyone else says.

heat would explain the black oil and why the piston expanded and seized and scared the cylinder like it did. i guess some how you were running it so lean it got that hot. maybe a lean mid range mixture? or maybe it needed a top end anyway and thats where all your oil went and why it got hot. valve guides? was it smoking?

[Xpress]

sounds like you got it hot and you need a bore and piston too. not too sure why or how it got hot. i'm interested to see what everyone else says.

heat would explain the black oil and why the piston expanded and seized and scared the cylinder like it did. i guess some how you were running it so lean it got that hot. maybe a lean mid range mixture? or maybe it needed a top end anyway and thats where all your oil went and why it got hot. valve guides? was it smoking?

It wasn't smoking, and it hasn't smoked ever since I got it. Also the plug came out a very dark dark brown color, like burnt caramel, so I'd think that it was running rich?

Also, I didn't seem to mention it, but we were riding for probably 45 minutes or more, but half of the time was cruising downhill, letting the engine idle.

[Slingblade]

If it didn't have much oil in it, that would explain it. She quit oiling up top. what does your cam journals in the head look like? Look's like she got mighty warm.

[three_wheelin45]

yea, i checked my oil the other day afte3r riding all day and i didnt have enough oil to touch the dip stick, and I had no choice to ride it home and I was so nervous.:lol:

[Xpress]

Still doesn't explain where all the oil went. Nothing was leaking, and it wasn't smoking...????????????????

Here's some more pics of the topend bits:

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7884/img5767.jpg

http://img602.imageshack.us/img602/2364/img5768l.jpg

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/3171/img5769.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4716/img5770l.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/843/img5771r.jpg

[leevarnado]

you oil pump quit pumping,could be from lack of oil,or just went bad.

[200xranger]

i had a 200x that locked up because the oil hole in the head clogged and the cam bushing seized to the cam. just a thought. good luck

[Xpress]

Well I got some good news. My neighbor (who is a mechanic at the local Mercedez Benz dealer) happened to see me working on the engine so he came over to check it out. He took a good look and confirmed that it's burning oil, and said just to put some new rings and gaskets on.

So that's the good news for today for me. Now to get some rings and gaskets :)

[TurboTacoma]

From the way the bore and piston look..... I would first do a quick hone on the piston bore and see if the scratches come out. If they do, you are luck! I then recommend a new piston, rings, and a top end kit. But It looks like you need the bore punched to the next size and get a new piston to match.

[oscarmayer]

let me save you soem $.
your entire top end is JUNK. the oil pump is now JUNK...
go on ebay, get a good jug and get a good pistin and head. (some of us hord 200cc parts so post up in the classifieds someoen may chime in.) figure on spending about $80-$100 on a good top end that needs a new piston.
if you wanna cheap out, get a 200x piston and cam. if you wanna get good power, get a wiseco 10.25:1 piston and web cam. (piston is $120 and cam is $85).
have the jug bored and hones to new piston size so that means measuring the jug to ensure you order the next sized up piston and your set.

good luck. no point trying to save a jug that's mushroomed at the bottom, the base is cracked is how that happens.

ALWAYS check oil levels.......

[Xpress]

let me save you soem $.
your entire top end is JUNK. the oil pump is now JUNK...
go on ebay, get a good jug and get a good pistin and head. (some of us hord 200cc parts so post up in the classifieds someoen may chime in.) figure on spending about $80-$100 on a good top end that needs a new piston.
if you wanna cheap out, get a 200x piston and cam. if you wanna get good power, get a wiseco 10.25:1 piston and web cam. (piston is $120 and cam is $85).
have the jug bored and hones to new piston size so that means measuring the jug to ensure you order the next sized up piston and your set.

good luck. no point trying to save a jug that's mushroomed at the bottom, the base is cracked is how that happens.

ALWAYS check oil levels.......

Well that's not saving me ANY money. I think I'll take the advice of my neighbor (who hasn't given me bad engine advice before) and put it back together and see if it runs. What's the worst that can happen? It doesn't run? In any matter i'm going to need new parts anyways, so what's the difference?

I think I'll just buy another 200X engine if this one turns out to be a lost cause, something with low hours, maybe part out the bottom end of this one (or at least what's useable). Do the 86-87 engines have the same bolt pattern?

[oscarmayer]

nope they do not swap into the eariler frames. compeltely different engines.

how spend hundreds on a compelte motor when you can jsut repalce the oil pump, clutch plates and top end. if your going to spend $ why not just spend $ on stuff you have too. it's your $ but it will cot more for another engine than to fix yours.

see if it runs? it may run (sorta) but will never run right and your very likley to ruin the crank and rest of the engine as the top end that is damaged sends shavings down into the lower end and such. That's 1 bad mistake after the one you just did (not checking fluid levels before the ride) if it was a 90cc or 110cc that was a cheepo motor then ok, but the 200x motor is way more expensive.

[Xpress]

The funny thing is it hadn't been burning oil before. The couple oil changes I have done all spit out the same amount of oil I've put in, so this is something recent... :wondering

FWIW all of the little metal shavings and whatnot in the above pictures are from a bolt that stripped out and I could only get it off by cutting it.

[WilliamJ]

I am a race engine builder and tuner (cars mostly). I am sorry to say your piston (and bore) are toast - it must have partially seized in the bore.

Those are excellent pictures and should be posted somewhere permanent as a reminder.

The piston will seize for three main reasons.

1) It is too big for the bore / lack of clearance. (Not checked when being re-built - and you would discover this on the first run after the rebuild so if it wasn't the first or second run it wasn't that.)

2) It was starved of oil. If the oil pump or supply failed the cam bearings would be the first thing to go because that's the highest point in the oil ways. The cam bearings look fine (slight mark on one but only slight) so its not that.

3) It got too hot. It definitely looks as though it got too hot - the oil looks as though it has been cooked but its not easy to say from a photo. The cam looks like it got very hot - slightly blued. The combustion chamber also looks like it got very hot - those deposits are typical of an overheated engine. The plug color of caramel usually indicates slightly rich but that's not a problem. It's difficult to be sure without doing a plug chop. When an engine gets too hot the rings don't seal which lets oil past to be burnt and the oil goes really thin so it gets past the rings even easier. The oil never recovers. Check the bottom end crank bearings - they may be okay looking at the way the cam bearings have survived. The head gasket has failed completely - look at the blow-by marks around the perimeter.

It may well be possible to rebore it - depends on how big the bore is now and if there is enough material left but it looks as though there is plenty in the photo.

Check all the gasket faces for warp (requires a true straight edge and an experienced eye) and machine or stone them flat if the faces are warped or they may not seal.

Please do not put it back together without doing the work because when it seizes next time it could wreck the rest of the motor.

Put a temperature gauge on the thing when it's done and you'll never overheat it again. You can get really small ones with digital readouts.

Good luck

Bill

[fabiodriven]

Do what you want Xpress, but you're just going to be polishing a turd if you throw rings at it. There is a chance it might work and last a long time, but if you get two months down the road and the same thing happens you're going to be wasting time and money. Why do you think the rest of us tear em down and go through everything. Twenty five year old machines XPress... I can't say it enough...

[oscarmayer]

it's possible the oil pump failed and caused the engine to over heat as we see. seen it before. but yea it got over heated and it ruined the bore and piston. rings will not fix it. do yourself anf that trike a favor. do it right or sell it and get a running one.

[Xpress]

^Well I bought it because it was a runner.... :D

So what am I looking at right now?

-Boring
-New piston/ring set
-Oil pump

??? And where to get these (boring I have covered already)?

[TurboTacoma]

Look on ebay.... 3and4wheeler shop or g&hatv discount. I have done both my atc200s top ends and clutches on mine.

[leevarnado]

you can a lifan top end off ebay for $70 shipped.its pretty much the same top end of a honda just china made.here's the link of the one i bought.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lifan-Engine-200cc-OHC-Cylinder-Head-complete-cam-parts-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2a0c4838a1QQitemZ18059 4686113QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[Xpress]

So it bolted right on and is running without any problems??

If so then I'm almost there lol. I still have no clue what to get for a piston. Any help, someone??? :wondering

[leevarnado]

im off on a job right now and will be a few weeks before i can tell you if its a direct bolt on,but from the looks of the pictures,it is.as for pistons.there's tons of oem ones on ebay,just have to search around a little bit.

[Xpress]

I still don't have any clue what to get for a piston...??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/83-87-ATC200X-Piston-Kit-010-65-25mm-ATC-200X-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem35af189408QQitemZ23057 0890248QQptZMotorsQ5fATVQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_ 600wt_1165

This look fine?

[leevarnado]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-ATC-TRX200-NOS-NEW-PISTON-RING-ORING-/310270435354?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item483d8f201a
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/020-HONDA-ATC-200-81-85-S81-86-wiseco-piston-/230563009519?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35aea053ef


like i said just look around,even if you have parts to buy from different sellers,

[leevarnado]

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php?123795-FS-1985-ATC-200x-complete-or-part-out

[ATCrider42]

I still don't have any clue what to get for a piston...??

You have to have your cylinder measured to determine how much they should bore it and then order a piston that matches the bore. Take your cylinder to a machine shop, or local bike shop with a good mechanic.

[bugler30]

Have a jug (just needs honed) and a stock piston if you need them, PM me if interested. Would still need rings and gasket set, word of advice on the gasket set, don't buy a cheapo headgasket you will regret it. get an OEM head-gasket if you can find it.

[ametzker]

Williamj is right, when I saw the pics of the top end I thought these were carnage pics. That piston is destroyed and the bore in the cylinder looks horific. If that was my engine I would split the cases and start from the bottom up with the basics. Or like you said if your not comfortable doing that, then look for a replacement.

[3wheelrider]

I just noted something one of the pics-so I gotta ask....Your head is missing the tiny rubber plug on top- next to the oil gallery to the cam- (where the tiny hole is). Was it there when you removed the rocker cover?

[redskinman]

you can a lifan top end off ebay for $70 shipped.its pretty much the same top end of a honda just china made.here's the link of the one i bought.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lifan-Engine-200cc-OHC-Cylinder-Head-complete-cam-parts-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2a0c4838a1QQitemZ18059 4686113QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

that would be awesome if that would work.So you bought this and havent put it on yet? Did you contact seller and ask them if it would work?

[redskinman]

you can a lifan top end off ebay for $70 shipped.its pretty much the same top end of a honda just china made.here's the link of the one i bought.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lifan-Engine-200cc-OHC-Cylinder-Head-complete-cam-parts-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2a0c4838a1QQitemZ18059 4686113QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

I dont know what yr yours or xpress"s 200x is,but seller says these will not fit 82-85 200x.I dont know about other yrs

[Shorty]

Or just upgrade to a new water cooled motor with the same characteristics as a crf250X ( or R) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/200cc-ATV-Go-Kart-163ml-Engine-Motor-Water-cool-Lifan-/170570581080?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_100&hash=item27b6cc8458#ht_4756wt_1165

[redskinman]

Or just upgrade to a new water cooled motor with the characteristics as a crf250X http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/200cc-ATV-Go-Kart-163ml-Engine-Motor-Water-cool-Lifan-/170570581080?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_100&hash=item27b6cc8458#ht_4756wt_1165

wish somebody would try that and document the build

[Shorty]

wish somebody would try that and document the build


I may after the imperial invasion.

[Xpress]

Gotta make some mounts for radiators.....

[oscarmayer]

hrmmm... i wonder if I should drop in the 300cc ohc watercooeld loncin i have in my garage onto my 200x. it's water cooled and produces about 26-28hp stock.

[barrett8]

if you go with a high comp piston make sure you have a good solid kick starter id not it will slip and beak in no time. also i would got go with a good company wiseco or a brand name not knock off you get what you pay for.