shifting problems, bike falling apart

[monster 84r]

let me start by apolagising about all the posts lately. but anyways, today i went riding with a 300ex, kawasaki 650, and a quadsport 230. i got my #$% handed by me from the prarie. so i checked over the bike. turns out , i cant shift into 5th gear. i tried a ton of times, and it wont shift there. its not shifting clean, i dont know what the problem is. sometimes it wont go into 1st. whats wrong? how much do i have to fork out to fix this? thanks guys, hope i can get her back to what she was

[monster 84r]

should i just adjust something, or do i need a new shift fork?

[chris200x]

Sounds like your shifting forks may be messed up. Or maybe you can fiddle with the clutch and/or the adjustment? Might have to go inside for a better look. Yes, that means splitting the cases. For a shop to do it it's probably gonna cost around $200 plus parts. Maybe someone else will chime in on this one cause I've been known to be wrong before :rolleyes:

[chris200x]

I would start with adjusting the clutch cable. Is it loose? Maybe take the clutch cover off and inspect that before you panic.

If you have a manual and some mechanical know how I don't think it's too hard. I tried splitting the cases on my 200x to change some chewed up gears and a bent fork but I made the mistake of letting the parts sit on the workbench too long and everything got mixed up. If you keep everything in order you should be fine. I did this before I found these boards. Lots of knowledgeable folks around here to help out. Another good thing to have is a digital camera to take pics of each step of disassembly. So you have a referance to look back at. Sure wish I did that with mine!

[monster 84r]

anyone know whats wrong?

[bigredhead]

Stupid detail. but make sure your foot shift lever is not stripped.. check the 10 mm bolt that holds it to the splines.. it might not grab enough to give you a clean shift and as you go UP UP UP by 5th it just slips.

my SX was doing this.

IF that's the problem.. get an EMGO shifter.. aftermarket, 15 $.. it's holding up just fine so far on mine.!!

[bigredhead]

yeah.. 1st thing.. take a deeep breath.. and exhale.. there.. feel better ? LOL...

So the lever is solid.. not slipping AT ALL right ?

if you put the bike in gear and pull the clutch ( with engine off ).. can you push it without the rear wheels locking up ?

[bigredhead]

See.. now that sucker should coast easy as pie..... somethin's wrong.

you say " when i push it back " .. well how bout when you push it forward ?

Changed the oil recently ? have you taken anything apart for any reason since you've had problems or before issues started ?

I'm guessing.. i repeat " GUESSING " clutch or tranny.

[monster 84r]

havent split the cases or anything, its hard to push foreward or backward but it goes. i just changed the gear oil, but it was hard to push w the clutch in ever since i got it. no issues, the chain slipped off once and busted off 3 teeth from the front sprocket, but other than that , no accidednts.

[bigredhead]

Play in the rear end at all ? how are the rear bearings ? and swingarm bearings.

missing teeth from the front sproket will destroy your chain... gotta look after that thing !

[bigredhead]

What oil did you put in it ?

[monster 84r]

i know, i have a 13tooth on now, but the chain is waaaaaaaayyyyyyy too loose. but even back when it was perfect it was hard to push. bearings are good,

[monster 84r]

i put in.... coastal 85w 140 and topped it off with 80w 90. its generic pep boys crap. used to run the honda stuff but i cant afford it anymore.

[bigredhead]

You mixed them ?

[monster 84r]

just a little, but yes

[monster 84r]

should i drain it out and replace it? i didnt know it could affect shifting

[bigredhead]

The R's tranny oil is not mixed with the clutch i beleive.

The tranny oil effects the 4 strokes quite a bit.. as they run wet clutches. so that's somethign you'll have to get help with from the R guys. sorry .. i'm an SX rider ! lol...

It's cheaper to drain and change the oil than splitting the cases.. so at very worst try that first... but wait for other's opinions before you do !

*( Alot of guys jump at the first suggestion they hear in this place. and that's not the way to do things !!! )

[bigredhead]

hey.. when you say " It won't go into 5th " .. does the shift lever just lock up solid ? or it moves but does not go into gear ?..
Did this start all of a sudden or gradually got worse ?

Have you taken a hard dump lately ? ( no .. not that kind hahahah )

[monster 84r]

haha, havent dumped it lately, but when i get to the top of fourth, the shifter wont budge. it locks up solid, it wont come out of 4th. locked totally solid. doesnt move at all twards 5th

[chris200x]

I'm reallly leaning towards bent shifting forks. My trike was completely locked up when I brought it home. The guy said it only needed a clutch cable though. Got one... still locked up. so I tore into her. what actually happened I believe is the end of the kicker spring broke off and somehow got into the tranny gears and made a big mess!. Only way to find out for sure is to go in for a closer look. Too bad you couldn't get it X-rayed to look internally huh? :rolleyes:

[monster 84r]

haha i wish i could, but untill then, ill change the gear oil, and get a manual then split cases.

[chris200x]

Before you split the cases take the clutch cover off and inspect the clutch itself. I really don't know too much about them but the problem may be there. Should have something in the manual.

[monster 84r]

the manual would help me out so much, can i just pick one up from a dealership or something? i dont know when i can get my hands on one.

[monster 84r]

i cant get a clymer till the end of the week, is there anything i can adjust to make it shift to 5th?

[Oldshell4481]

id take it to a shop and have them inspect the clutch and the gears inside the crankcase, or you could do it yourself but be sure to order gasket sets and stuff first, while you havce it apart it wont hurt to check all bearings as necessary.

[monster 84r]

i just dont know what to look for though, what to inspect. cant take it to a shop though, i gotta do it myself. i wish they had free online manuals

[rustbucket]

splitting cases really isn't that bad just look for shims and spacers to see where they go, the worst part is stripped screws sometimes I swear there is metric and american screwdrivers. if you need to take pictures with a camera as you tear into it.

[monster 84r]

eeek i dont like the sound of tearing into it....ill take the clutch cover off, and if i see anything rattleing around in the case ill fix it , but thats about all i can do. im too scared to really tear into her.

[bigredhead]

I highly advise against this !

From the sounds of it you have not done much tooling on motors, and don't get me wrong.. i really don't mean any dis-respect, but it's a fairly complex job to do " Properly ! ".

First and foremost.. what do you have for tools ? good sockets and wrenches.. screwdrivers etc.. cheapo no-name tools don't fit as good as quality tools.... the tolerances are not the same.

You would need a torque wrench, new gaskets, and god only knows what else before you get the whole job done and as Chris said above.. :

Having things apart for an extended period of time.. either waiting on parts or budget to line up causes loss of memory and things get misplaced......

Either take it to a shop or to someone who has experience in this stuff and have them teach you how it's done. I'm also one of those " I can do that " type.. but i've put myself in a mess many times before and i've learned from it !

know your limits !

[monster 84r]

yeah, ive take motors apart and stuff before, its just im only 15, and im stuck with this bike so i cant screw it up. i have all the tools except the torque wrench, i can get new gaskets, but first and foremost i need to find out exactly whats wrong.

[200xman]

Not to sound like a wise ass but I just want to make sure that you know the shift pattern is 1 down and 4 up. Maybe you are getting fifth and dont know it? The aircoolers were know for eating second and third usually.

[monster 84r]

haha no its ok thats what i thought in the begining , but i know for a fact it wont shift to 5th, ive tried a million times, and counted the gears, only get to 4th. i only hit 57 yesterday, and i knew something was up.

[chris200x]

manuals can be found on ebay and clymer have there own website. If you don't have the cash to take it to a shop have dad or an uncle or neighbor help you. Have to learn sometime right! your not going to figure it out by sitting behind the computer. get your digital camera and your gaskets first. when your stuck ask questions everyone is here to help! Also fix that darn chain! don't want to do this work then have to do it all over again cause you threw your chain and split a engine case.

[monster 84r]

ok i took the side cover peices off, or at least the one over the flywheel. it had some surface rust which makes me wonder if it had been submerged. ill take off the other cover and check stuff out tomorrow, and take pics.

[MTS]

you didnt fill up the oil to the top of the filler--did you? also drain the oil, if it is silver or has metal shavings in it you have major problems...

[dovesprings250R]

I would change the tranny oil and replace it with a low weight tranny oil such as dumonde tech racing tranny oil or maxima 80 wt. I would install a magnetic drain plug if you don't have one. I would purchase a new clutch and install it. (hopefully the basket is not bad)It sounds as though all this needs to be done anyway. I would triple check that the shift lever is ok and not slipping due to being stripped. If none of that works I would take it to a good shop and have them split the cases to fing the culprit. You would have needed a new clutch anyway, at least now you can narrow it down to a bigger job. Good luck.

[monster 84r]

do i just need new clutch plates?

[bigredhead]

Look for the lowest possible position for the drain bolt.. i don't have an R so i'm sorry i can't point it directly.

But if you have metal flakes in your oil.. you got problems !!!!! serious ones !

[monster 84r]

ok, thanks

[monster 84r]

i think i found the nut , but i wouldent come off, im not sure if i found the right one. ill just do it the way i always do it by taking out the oil check screw and tipping the bike over.

[bigredhead]

Be careful not to strip stuff...

Look for a bolt either on the bottom of the block ( underneath the tranny ) or one to the side that looks different from the rest.. usually a bigger one than the case bolts.

Get a good grip on it with the METRIC sockets or good wrench (mm.. not inches .. metric ) and give it a solid pop or pull progressively hard until you either determine it won't budge and will strip. but if you see it start to strip.. STOP.

Go to " www.partsfish.com " and register if you are not a user.. it's easy and free.

Look up your model and make and year on there and you will be able to find the drain bolt in one of the diagrams.

[bigredhead]

I checked it myself and it looks like the 12mm bolt directly underneath the crancase.

[monster 84r]

thanks man uve been a big help!

[monster 84r]

i was thinking of takeing the bike in to be fixed, but i cant afford it. the local dealership charges 80$ per hour for labor :mad: !! i almost had a heart attack! so i think ill go find a parts motor and a freelance mechanic, and get 'er done. shops prices are outrageous these days.

[monster 84r]

i think i need A new clutch too, when i shift and hit the gas, the bike jumps to high revs but the speed takes a few seconds to catch up. it feels like im riding an automatic, is the clutch slipping too? o i cant find the 12mm nut under the motor but im looking...

[monster 84r]

ok i took off the skid plate and the only bolt i see is waaaaay bigger than 12mm.... its about 3/4 inch. i tried to get it out but it wouldent budge, i didnt tryy too hard on it though. im not shure if this is the right bolt, but its the only one * can take out with out removing the skid plate, and i dont see any others uner the crankcase.

[Dammit!]

The oil drain plug is a 17mm on the 85-86 models. Can't imagine it being smaller than that on the '84.

Anyway, get yourself a shop manual before you tear anything apart. There might even be someone on here that can hook you up with a manual on cd or something but either way, get one. If you have to buy one it will be worth every cent. You pay 30 bucks for a manual and do one single job yourself and you saved at least 50 bucks versus paying the shop.

With metal flakes in the engine, something is seriously wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the shift fork or something broke and is in there getting chewed up. You need to get into the engine but don't do it without a manual and adequate tools.

If it helps, I rebuilt my first motor when I was 12. It isn't that hard really. Just pay attention when you're breaking things down. If you have a digital camera, take pics as you're tearing it down so you have a refference if you need one. There's plenty of people here to help when you get stuck.

[monster 84r]

thanks dammit, im gonna try and get a manual asap, ive been procrastenating, but id much rather do it myself than pay steves. meanwhile ill drain that oil, i measured the nut and its about 17mm so i feel a lil more confident. this weekend i might go and get a parts bike and start canibalizing.

[bigredhead]

Stick with MM's.. millimeters.... very important.. no 3/4 stuff !!!!

[monster 84r]

alright, sry i was just estimatin' , i learned the hardway on my old gt 80 that standard sockets dont fit on metric bolts, lol

[bigredhead]

The bigger the bolt the less the problem.... but it's a good habbit to develop !! :p ( yeah i'm a prick with certain details !! ..lol )

[monster 84r]

just for the sake of speculation, what if i have a different transmission in my bike? does anyone else have an 84r? I have to double shift from 1st to 2nd. is neutral supposed to be halfway? i could use some help on this guys, thanks!

[monster 84r]

any thoughts? im starting to think this thing has a diff transmission. i double shift from 1st to second. all help apreciated!

[Dammit!]

Yes, neutral is in between 1st and 2nd. It's like that on all the sports bikes with a manual clutch. 1 down, half up is neutral, full up is 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th.

[monster 84r]

most of the bikes ive ridden have had neutral halfway between 1st and 2nd. but on my 250r, i shift one whole shift to neutral, and another whole shift to 2nd. on the ex i used to ride, you could go from 1st to 2nd in one shift. as my bike is now, it takes 2 shifts to go from 1st to 2nd. hope this clears stuff up.

[Dammit!]

Something is broken. Hope this clears stuff up.

Sorry man I couldn't resist. ;)

Seriously though, my money is on a broken shift fork but you won't know until you open her up. It's definitely not supposed to be that way. It should be just like the other bikes you've ridden. Half click.

[monster 84r]

are you serios? this sucks! i should have known. i had to double shift when i test drove it, but thought nothing of it because i didnt know any better. im supposed to be able to go from 1st to 2nd in one shift? im calling the scumbag who sold me this back to ask him what golfcart the trannny came from. :cry:

[Dammit!]

It doesn't mean it's the wrong tranny. I think there's just something wrong with it. I've never owned one of the air coolers before but I have heard about problems with those shift forks. If I recall correctly it's not all that big a deal to fix but I'll let the air cooler experts chime in on that.

These motors are fairly simple. Whatever it is can be fixed. Breathe in... now exhale. ;)

[monster 84r]

haha i need to chill out a litttle bit, im just pissed that i just bought it and now i have to split cases. how much is a shift fork going for these days? i might go by a junkyard this weekend to rip one off of a bike. would it save that much money vurses buying an oem one? and who would install it the cheapest?

[monster 84r]

does honda still make shift forks for 250r's?

[monster 84r]

i just talked to someone at a dealership who told me i would have to take out the whole motor, remove the cylendar and piston, and split the cases to get to the messed up fork. is that the case? who in the az area works on bikes like this for cheap? any help appreciated.

[gasmask]

about 3 weeks ago me and a friend was playing around with out bikes. he has a banshee and i am still building an atc 500...i reved it to high before shifting so it wouldn't go into 2nd gear...after letting it sit for 3 day i change changed to a 50/50 gas mixture...went to ride it and going to 2nd gear it reved up,locked the rear tires and shut off...trying to shift to 1st or netural was impossible without jumpping off the bike and rocking it back and forth like a mad man for 5 minutes...this happened 4 times after cranking it, shifting it and rocking it...now if i skipped 2nd gear it worked fine...so i went and split the cases and found that one shift fork was rubbing against 2 gears...so the gears and the shift fork needed to be replaced...now it shifts....

[resto250r]

Hey Monster I have an 83r which is the same exact bike anyways I've been in my bottom end before I do know that the shift spindle itself cracks in between teeth from standing on the shifter to go into 1st, I clamped it back together and welded it since they are hard to find. I do see them on ebay and have been tempted to buy one 4 a spare. You will have to pull the motor off the frame to get the cover off though sorry. Where r * @ in Az I'm in glendale?

[monster 84r]

what exactly is involved in splitting the cases? how much would this cost to have some one do it 4 me?

[monster 84r]

o im located in mesa, lyndsay and mkcellips. do * know of anyone who can do this for me resto? i cant take it in.

[speed20]

Hey Monster......I had a 200x that had a shifting problem....wouldnt shift into 2nd, but all other gears worked fine....split the cases, turned out to be the shift fork rode (rod that holds the shifting forks in place) was bent....couldnt tell by looking at it, but you put it in a drill press and it would go side to side like crazy. I live in Ohio, but have had experience with quite a few 4 wheelers, 3 wheelers, dirt bikes and street bikes (worked at a cycle shop for about 3 years).....if noone else wants to do the motor work, i would be glad to help a fellow triker! if your interested, PM me and we can work something out.

[monster 84r]

thanks man, ill let you know if i cant find out whats goin on, and find out a way to get her up there. i just called the previous owner back, and it turns out that he moved 1st gear two clicks away from second, thus making me have to double shift. he said he did this so that his girlfriend could ride it and have more control of the gears :rolleyes:. i called the dealership and they said that if this was done , it could keep the fork from hitting 5th. he had some weird name for what i had to adjust. some part that catches on the drum of the clutch. he said i could fix it but taking off the clutch cover and going from there. anyone know how i should fix this? even if i cant get to 5th afterward, at least i dont have to double shift to get to 2nd gear.

[speed20]

I have never heard of anyone moving gears to different positions......sounds to me like he is :crazy: . Im not even sure if it is possible to be honest with you, unless it is a totally different transmission.

[monster 84r]

he must have been an idiot to do that, but from what the techy told me its possible.

[bigredhead]

Are you sure you were able to go to 5th before ?

I have a thought but it would mean never beeing able to reach 5th in the first place....

[monster 84r]

no i was never able to go to 5th gear. since i bought it. how can i make neutral 1/2 between 1st and second?

[monster 84r]

bigredhead, ** theory is probly right because ive never been able to get to 5th. the guy i talked to said this arm that clicks onto the outside of the clutch drum has been messed with.

[resto250r]

I would tell * 2 bring it by but your in mesa I'm in Glendale.

[DIGGER DOG]

Hi Ya , I know this is about 11 hours since the last posting so i dont know if you are still monitoring the post or not?
I am by far not an expert and im not a know it all but i am attending MMI (Motorcycle Mechanics Institute) Like I say im definately not an expert but my diagnosis would be a bent,or broken shift fork and or fork rod and or damage to the shift drum probably leading to damage to the gear or gears themselves since you have shavings in the oil,.
Definately get a manual,and some decent tools , ive torn down about 3 trannys so far at school a 350x, xr 200, and a Harley davidson. on an air cooled R it shouldent really be a big deal but yes you do have to remove the head ,cylinder ,and split the case, just get all your gaskets and such before hand ,it would be a good idea to research for shift forks,fork rod, etc.. to see if they are still available from a dealer or get a parts motor, It may really seem like a big task but even when I tore the 350x down ( and had to do it about 4 times the top end any ways bottom once) it really wasent bad and the 350x has considerably more parts than an air cooled R its really not a chore if you have the tools I think you may need a rotor puller?? not too familiar with the Rs but i would imagine youd need one the clymer or haines manual will go into more detail than the honda manual but i prefer the honda manual . but i would suggest getting clymer because it should walk you through it step by step just take your time and get the tools you need .
But if you are too intimidated by it ( I was definately intimidated doing transmissions before i actually did it ) then definately find a decent mech. that will do it and maybe ask if you can help do it too maybe you could get it done cheaper too but I think you can do it though especially with all the help from this site and other members espcially the 250R guys here.

[monster 84r]

that sounds like the culprit, the shift fork, but im trying to knock out all the possibilities before i split the cases. does anyone know how messing with the 1st-neutral-2nd gear pattern could put 5th gear out of whack?

[bigredhead]

You know.

You should take advantage of times like these to get your whole bottom end checked out.

Get a gasket kit for the whole thing.. and get someone to come over and take the whole thing apart.. You said you had metal particles in your oil.. if that's the case something is chewed up in there... could be any number of things from forks to crank bearings.. to xx x x x xx x x god only knows what.

Have the whole thing checked out.. spend your money wisely by only having to buy 1 set of gaskets, and go over the clutch, tranny, crank, piston rings, the whole caboot.

Then you know what you are riding and it gives a world of good feeling once it's all done right.

Do part now.. part then, you will go around in circles for ever.

Look at my SX.

My swingarm welds broke.. and since i'm putting a new swingarm in.. i'm putting in new swingarm bearings and seals. Ordering a new locknut for the swingarm. Having my diff overhauled with new bearings and seals.. and the list goes on.

One i'm all done.. i'll for sure my rear end won't have to be touched again for a long time !!!

[monster 84r]

yeah, im looking for someone to help me check her out. shes been in for regular check ups before i got her, but there are probably some problems. oh, i found out the particles i saw in the oil were just part of the oil the man used. when i drained it yesterday there werent any shavings in the oil. i wanted to take her apart today, but ill save that as a last resort. does anyone know how to put 1st, 2nd, and neutral back to where they were?

[resto250r]

I have the same motor split on my bench in the garage I have a problem with 2nd gear on it but havn't got around to messing with it. I'll look it over and see if I cum up with any ideas on the double shift and no 5th gear!

[monster 84r]

thanks resto! let me know what * find! im still trying to find out what this guy did to space out 1st ,2nd and neutral.

[monster 84r]

i got a theory now, i think since neutral was moved up half a step from stock, that forced 2nd half a step up , and 3rd etc. i think that now that 5th gear is pushed farther away from neutral than stock, that the fork cant get to it. basicly, making neutral its own gear pushed 5th too far out to access. anyone think this is semi coherent?

[monster 84r]

anyone think im right with my prediction thing? i repainted the 250r today by the way, gloss black fenders and scoops, red tank. i just wish it shifted as good as it looks :cry:

[nimda78]

sounds like when the previous owner said he "moved whatever two clicks..of whatever with the gears" he meant the splines on the shifter shaft. ya know comes out of motor...arm attached to for yer foot? the last owner's girly girl prolly couldnt bend her presumably smaller foot down too shift up from first gear so he twisted it up a spline or three. this wouldnt affect * being able too pull it up to fif gear, as long as there is no obstruction. mag cover ect. by page 6 * forget what dang bike the thread is about. as to the internal problems, my diagnosis: if in fourth and pulling to fif it feels very unnatural like a half clik? and then it pops back down, its a bent shifter fork almost undoubtly. plus whatever resulting damage the bent fork caused. was it you, monster84, that said when you shifted and guned it it would rev up, then gradually grab, like an automatic. the clutch IS SLIPPING! post where you are with the project now. have you drained the oil from the bottom yet? tipping it, when * know * have shavings in the oil, only spreads the contaminant about!!!!. use a 17mm wrench, not a socket!! try reseting the shift arm back down 2 or three splines, if youve never removed a shifter of brake arm from a bike, you must completly remove the bolt from the arm. after you get the bolt out, and the arm off, you will see why.

[monster 84r]

i was wrong about the oil shavings, it was some weird oil that had sparkles in it. nimda, ill have to check the shifter, but whatever this dude did to my 84 250r, was a crap fix. he didnt modify the gears or split the cases. he messed with something that catches on the clutch drum so that i have to double shift to get to second. ill have to call the dealership back to find out what its called, but its some part ive never heard of. i was under the impression that messing with it was a big no no.

[Red Rider]

i was wrong about the oil shavings, it was some weird oil that had sparkles in it.By no means have I seen all the different types of oil out there, but of all the types that I have seen, none of them ever had sparkles, unless the sparkles was ground down, metallic, engine matter. :confused:

[monster 84r]

thats what i thought, but when i feel the particles in my fingers, they dont have a hard, metallic feel to them. since then ive replaced the the tranny oil 2 times, i drained a little today, and there were no shavings. im using coastal 80w 90.

[nimda78]

aluminium shavings feel like mettalic paint, silky smooth not gritty. if you didnt feel anything in your fingers, thats a good indicator, in that there wasnt much if any steel, very very bad for da motor!!

[monster 84r]

ok all of that aside, how in heck do i get to go to fifth. im almost ready to go sell this for a big red or something.....

[nimda78]

what is the make and model of this problematic trike? can you post pics of the shifter side, a close up of the mag cover and shifter? besides what we have all already told you, theres not much any of us can do via the web. we're all stabbibg in the dark really, ya know? if adjusting the shifter down a few splines, like i already said, doesnt make fif majic-ly start working, your fuct.

[monster 84r]

sry for wasteing all ** guy's time with this, its a 1984 atc250r. no major mods, but like i said the idiot had to **** up honda's perfect factory gearing so his girl could shift easier :wondering . someone should have told him not to mess with perfection. ill take some pics asap, ill have em up in an hour or so. thanks for all ** help.

[monster 84r]

ok heres the pics of the bike, let me know if you need more!

[monster 84r]

anyone have any ideas?