It's going to be a bumpy ride America

[fabiodriven]

Don't watch it if you don't want to see or understand, or stop asking questions. You can't have it both ways.

[Red Rider]

I've seen the videos, read the reports, and I've come to my own conclusion.

[fabiodriven]

ON the whole 9-11 thing, I lean toward believing that it was in fact terrorist hijackers. I'm not saying we have been told the whole story, but like I said before, it's so hard for us to know who to believe when we don't have first hand knowledge. People lie, the government lies, it's very hard to know who is giving it to us straight. No, jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt structural steel, but it any interior structure fire generates plenty enough heat to alter it's integrity. Ask any firefighter how hot the inside of a burning building gets. It certainly isn't like they portray it in the movies, people walking around in a burning building coughing occasionally. The heat alone is enough to instantly cause irreversible damage to your lungs and kill you. It gets hot enough that smoke will itself ignite, called flashover, which occurs usually north of 900 deg Fahrenheit. Normal everyday items found in our homes burn hot enough to cause this. Jet fuel raises the bar and I believe certainly hot enough to negatively impact the steel weakening it. We use heat to manipulate steel in our shops every day.

IMHO, Dan raises good questions that are hard to ignore. How long after 9-11 did we see some people in the middle east celebrating their victory wearing shirts depicting the burning towers? Not sure why they would celebrate it if they had nothing to do with it, much less if our own government did it. Do I believe our government is corrupt and full of liars?? Absolutely. Am I ready to take that leap and sign onto the belief our own government with the help of who knows how many of our own fellow citizens perpetrated 9-11??? No, I can't say I'm there. We can all argue till the cows come home that much of the middle east hates us because we meddle in things that we shouldn't. That is a subject that can be debated. But I'm not sure about the war for oil assertion either. I don't know about you all, but I never experience a huge drop in energy prices during or after the war that I would expect if we were really there for the oil and got it. Matter of fact, it was during the last years of GWB and early in BHO administration that gasoline went over $4 per gallon if I recall correctly... Where is the oil we went there to get?? Yes, fuel prices are lower now, but for what reason?? Last I knew the first major drop in crude we experienced 3 or 4 years ago was due to the Saudis increasing production massively, probably to drive competing countries out if the oil business but who knows, that's another debate in and of itself.

Back to the towers: I am not a structural engineer. Just a regular guy looking at this as a regular guy would. It seems to me that when enough load bearing steel beams weakened under the weight of the floors above them, collapsing straight down seems right to me. What would anyone expect??? For it to topple over like a tree that has been face cut and felled? (something I DO know a little bit about). Gravity wins, it's the single strongest and never dying force in the universe, and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. I don't see any other way those towers would fall unless manipulated to do so and at great length.

I'll be straight honest here. A big part of the reason I have a hard time swallowing the "9-11 was an inside job" pill is due to some of the more prominent figures who promote it, chiefly among them being Micheal Moore. I can't stand that man or anything he claims to stand for. He is in my opinion a fraud and a radical socialist, neither of which I feel are good for our country. He is to me no different than Napoleon the pig from Animal Farm. So there's that....

John, I still count you a friend and I hope you understand that just because I may not quite see these things the same as you I would never hold it against you. I know you are a person who does more than his share of thinking and I know you don't assert things you don't truly believe in. As always, I respect your service and thank you for it.

All said and done, both sides of this issue call the other blind or asleep... I don't really know if that's fair to say. What I would like to know is what we are supposed to do if that big truth bomb is ever dropped and the 9-11 thing does turn out to be confirmed to be a cover up? What then?? I vote every election, locals included. I'm not sure what else we are to do??? Storm DC???? I don't think that will end well... I know we are living very hard and precarious times... I fear for my kids.

Joe I hope you don't mind me quoting your post in this thread here. I'm not looking to recruit you or anyone else or force my beliefs down anyone's throat. I take this subject very seriously because of the truth that is behind it. You might relate if one day you figured out that your own government would do something such as this, or if they truly didn't, at least they would hide the truth about what happened.

I've seen the videos, read the reports, and I've come to my own conclusion.

This is all I, as well as everyone in these videos is asking of you. Red Rider has just chosen to ignore the laws of physics as well as the expert analysis of thousands of structural engineers as well as demolitions experts around the planet. You can do that as well, and so can Dan. I didn't bring this up because you people are honestly hopeless, and I gave up. It's a subject maybe you and others are better off pretending didn't happen. I will promise you if I have the opportunity to get my hands dirty again some day for the correct cause, I will. I'm not asking you or anyone else to join me, and I'd still do it for people who would just as soon I shut up and go away.

Dan brought up "false claims of explosions before the towers fell", so I provided video evidence which can be seen in two separate videos. In case you missed them, they are here-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAv7XFk7kRk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg&t=193s

Claim #1, disproven with video evidence as well as eyewitness testimony.

I implore anyone who has not to view these videos if you want to hear from people who are experts in this very field, then form your own opinion. Forget about hijackers and fairy tales, not saying that didn't happen but if you think it would be difficult to cast that part in comparison to taking down three massive structures the way they have, then you're not understanding the magnitude of this situation. In comparison to the other events that happened that day, you are best off leaving what by comparison are minute details out of the equation because the focus on that is to distract you and make things more complex. Worry about that later, but for the time being the "accepted" explanation of how these buildings came down is unequivocally false.

Red Rider asked some very good questions to test my mettle, and my reply to him is "I am not an engineer", however here are dozens of well-known engineers and demolition experts who can speak to every detail you may want to know. These people are far more qualified than I am myself. Please hear what they have to say in the second video linked above if you care to.

So let's do this because this works out best for everyone. Watch the videos if you want, or don't. Shove them where the sun don't shine, I don't care. I don't care what happens to any of you or any of your children. I watch out for me, because I take a lot of looking after. I have no children to pass this place on to, I am here for me and me only, and my cat. I can promise you I will be fine and if I'm hit by a truck tomorrow I will have zero regrets. Once I pass from this realm there is no concern for me or what this crooked place has become. Just about everyone else in here should be wondering where they are raising their young and the condition of this place and the mind set of the generations to follow, who are even more blind than those who come from a less tech-savvy era. I'll just shut the up and I'll be fine. You guys can pretend whatever keeps you producing.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

John, no problem bringing my post here.

OK, so the whole theory that 9/11 was perpetrated by the powers that be is predicated on the assertion that we really went to war for oil and the 9/11 attacks would get the American people on board?? Is this correct?? If not then what I'm about to say is a time wasted...

If so then consider this: Why would it make sense to go to such great lengths, murder 3,000 citizens risking the cover-up being exposed just to get oil? It's a known fact that we have gigantic oil reserves within our own borders and wouldn't it make more sense to have the political "war" here with the extremists environmentalists and use our own resources??? Some say war boosts the economy, OK.. But I would argue that increased production from our own resources here would prove to be a much more substantial and sustainable boost to our economy. This is what I think whenever I hear the "war for oil" catchphrase being tossed about. To me the war for oil assertion makes the least amount of sense. Lets say oil is the goal of the war, #1, where is it? #2, that's a pretty bad investment if you ask me.. I'm not looking at the numbers but I would venture a guess that the war has cost us exponentially more than any possible return in oil would amount to. It just doesn't add up to me.

Am I missing something with this??

[redsox]

I'll be bummed out if you bail on this John. Also, you shouldn't have to carry the torch all by yourself. i know there are other conspiracy guys out there lying in the weeds who haven't chimed in. Still no answer to the calls from the plane. Still noting about 1993. No support for the conspiracy argument, other than "open your eyes and you will see" accompanied by endless homework provided by the google machine. Lets discuss conspiracy in general. Not limited to 9/11. Name a bad thing thats happened that wasn't a conspiracy.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

And John, I can't agree with the idea that the Jihadists are only fighting us because "we are over there". Look at what those bastards have been doing in Europe and even the attacks that have occured at the hands of radical muslims right here? The night club shooting, the attack in Texas last year that fortunately resulted in the attackers being stopped by police. What about these muslim-only zones popping up, especially in Michigan of all places?? Make no mistake, these pukes have aspirations of world domination with sharia law being the law of the land EVERYWHERE. The military presence and operations in the middle East notwithstanding, they would still be on the attack the world over.

[fabiodriven]

John, no problem bringing my post here.

OK, so the whole theory that 9/11 was perpetrated by the powers that be is predicated on the assertion that we really went to war for oil and the 9/11 attacks would get the American people on board?? Is this correct?? If not then what I'm about to say is a time wasted...

If so then consider this: Why would it make sense to go to such great lengths, murder 3,000 citizens risking the cover-up being exposed just to get oil? It's a known fact that we have gigantic oil reserves within our own borders and wouldn't it make more sense to have the political "war" here with the extremists environmentalists and use our own resources??? Some say war boosts the economy, OK.. But I would argue that increased production from our own resources here would prove to be a much more substantial and sustainable boost to our economy. This is what I think whenever I hear the "war for oil" catchphrase being tossed about. To me the war for oil assertion makes the least amount of sense. Lets say oil is the goal of the war, #1, where is it? #2, that's a pretty bad investment if you ask me.. I'm not looking at the numbers but I would venture a guess that the war has cost us exponentially more than any possible return in oil would amount to. It just doesn't add up to me.

Am I missing something with this??

You are on the right path Joe. The part about human lives lost, what you must realize is our lives are worth nothing more to them than we can produce for them. There are no feelings towards our loss of lives or for those who would grieve our loss. You, me, Dan, the Glamster, we are disposable. We are born into tens of thousands of dollars of debt the moment we breathe our first breaths on this planet. All of that money, taxes or private profit, it all trickles down to the same place, and that is the banks. The federal reserve. We are all owned by them and were signed over decades ago. If that subject interests you, there is plenty of information on it. I don't recall the exact year off the top of my head that occurred, but I believe it was in the 20's or 30's.

It is about oil, but it is ultimately about power. There are families such as the Rothschilds who want to own the planet, literally. Families such as those, of which there are a few, have had unimaginable amounts of wealth for generation after generation, and this planet and anything obtainable by their imagination has been at their beck and call their entire lives. Their greed knows no bounds and the planet is their playground. You are talking about families that profit in stifling numbers from war. They supply the oil, the machines, everything, everything ends up with them getting paid. All of our currency comes from and ends up at the federal reserve, they own us. They are a private entity, not a part of the United States government, and are so mega wealthy that they can do what they want when they want to. Why would they adhere to laws of an entity that is actually beneath them, that they actually own?

It is about power Joe, and they thirst for it. They're used to making money, and they do it coming and going, but they don't even have to. They own money, they can make more. To understand more from someone who knows much more than I do, and knows how to explain this better than I can, here is a five minute video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-5C4M0jqgE

[fabiodriven]

I'll be bummed out if you bail on this John. Also, you shouldn't have to carry the torch all by yourself. i know there are other conspiracy guys out there lying in the weeds who haven't chimed in. Still no answer to the calls from the plane. Still noting about 1993. No support for the conspiracy argument, other than "open your eyes and you will see" accompanied by endless homework provided by the google machine. Lets discuss conspiracy in general. Not limited to 9/11. Name a bad thing thats happened that wasn't a conspiracy.

Hypothesis proponents Dan. Conspiracy theorist is a dismissive trigger term created for people to disregard whatever they hear from that person.

Easy gunpowder, one step at a time. I've not said anything about 1993 in this thread, there is plenty to work on here. Clear your desk and focus on one part at a time. I'm not going to sit here and translate everything for you. If you don't have time to watch informative videos that answer the questions you're asking, you're either making another excuse to remain ignorant or you just like to watch me type.

Here are a couple more instances, but one step at a time. I am a wealth of information on a myriad of these subjects, but far from an expert in any one. The one that I know the most about is 9/11, and that's what we're focusing on, so let's keep our focus.

Pearl Harbor, December 7 1941. The Japanese attack the American Navy while still tied up to the docks in their own port. How could such a massive attack possibly be overlooked? Some say it wasn't. Some say that the American government knew the Japanese were coming, but did nothing about it. World War 2 obviously ensued.

In August of 1964 the USS Maddox, a U.S. Navy destroyer, was conducting signals intelligence patrols in the Gulf of Tonkin off the coast of Vietnam when it was supposedly attacked by three North Vietnamese torpedo boats. The result of this attack was the Vietnam war. The American public was told that the Vietnamese fired the first shots. Recently unclassified documents show otherwise however. It turns out that the American boat was the first one to fire. THIS IS NOT HEARSAY, THIS IS FACT- AMERICA MANUFACTURED A REASON TO START THE VIETNAM WAR.

That's right, our country started the Vietnam conflict. A conflict in which thousands of people died, and countless more were affected by. Think of the atrocities that everyone knows about when you mention the Vietnam conflict. Now think of why they happened. Those things happened to all of those people, millions of people's lives affected, because somebody in America wanted them to. I'm not going to get into too much detail as far as reasons go, if you're interested look into it yourself.

Dan, did you take the hour or so to watch the video made by engineers and demolition experts around the planet? It is flattering that you'd take my word over theirs, but I think it would behoove you greatly to see what they'd like to show you. It's really your own eyes that need to see these things. I'm not going to sit here and act out every scene for you, I cannot show you what they will.

[fabiodriven]

And John, I can't agree with the idea that the Jihadists are only fighting us because "we are over there". Look at what those bastards have been doing in Europe and even the attacks that have occured at the hands of radical muslims right here? The night club shooting, the attack in Texas last year that fortunately resulted in the attackers being stopped by police. What about these muslim-only zones popping up, especially in Michigan of all places?? Make no mistake, these pukes have aspirations of world domination with sharia law being the law of the land EVERYWHERE. The military presence and operations in the middle East notwithstanding, they would still be on the attack the world over.

Oh you can, you just won't. I'm not faulting you for that, but you are likely misinformed on most of the subjects at hand. I'm not saying the brown people are right, but we're far more wrong than you realize. It is a truly American standpoint to look at a foreign country's people as being at fault for defending their land when we show up uninvited, as if we have the right to pull up on anyone's shores any time. What our government thinks and decides in regards to their country is a moot point to them, and as well it should be.

If the people of Iraq one day say "Let's invade America for (whatever) reason", and they were capable, and subsequently landed on our shores, how would you react? If Iraqi tanks were rolling up your road, would you go out and shake their hands? Or welcome them with open arms? Let us not forget, we were in Iraq for weapons of mass destruction, were we not? What happened with those? If that was our reason for being there and they turned out not to exist, then why did we not turn around and go home?

[fabiodriven]

Here's what your average Afghani thinks about 9/11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SimIS_cQ6ko

To explain to Dan, because I guess you don't want to learn or don't have time to learn or like making me type, the short version of this video is American soldiers showing pictures of the 9/11 disaster to dozens of Afghani people and very few at all even knew what it was a picture of.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I don't disagree with you on that facet of it. What I'm saying is that the Jihadists are not and have not just been nsitting idly at home and all of this stirred up just because we went there. And I would even go so far as to say that tensions and hostility have probably increased since we went there. But what did Spain do to deserve an attack? How about France? Are they really that big of players in operations over there?? As far as I know they are not. And I must ask, do you really think that Jihadists attacks here and in Europe would cease if we pulled out 100% tomorrow?? I seriously doubt it.

[fabiodriven]

I think they never would have started if we hadn't kicked the hornet's nest. For a company that profits from war, what better way to ensure your future than to rile up the most bitter and war-torn people history has to offer? Every time they attack, it's dollar signs for the federal reserve. People get scared, they consume, that's how it works. They also get docile and stay home, thereby making them easier to control.

Spain and France I have no idea. I have no information on that subject. I am very subjective and I like to get behind things that can be proven, I've seen with my own eyes, or I have experience with. Before we get too far away, clear your desk as well. One subject at a time.

Myself, as well as Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth, http://www.ae911truth.org/, know because of hundreds of collective years of experience and the laws of physics that the three concrete and steel structures that fell that day did not fall due to the reasons we're being given, IE being hit by aircraft. I like this point because it is simple, there is overwhelming evidence, and I completely understand it. If you, Joe, have not yet viewed the video those people have taken the time to produce, I might suggest you do so.

[bkm]

The projectile that hit the Pentagon was undoubtedly not a passenger aircraft.

With the evidence, and blatant lack, available to draw conclusions, if you think otherwise you aren't uneducated, unaware, or ignorant. Just fvckin stupid.

How can you say "undoubtedly?" I've seen video's supporting both theories. I'm honestly on the fence. Now do I think think there's more than meets the eye? Yes. Do I think a government that is not smart enough to plant "wmd's" in Iraq to say "told you so" is smart enough pull off an elaborate conspiracy and no one in the deep state has blown a whistle? No. For every video showing a cover-up, there's another supporting the facts as presented. Both sides have an agenda and I belive there are three sides to every story. Your side, my side, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[fabiodriven]

The projectile that hit the Pentagon was undoubtedly not a passenger aircraft.

With the evidence, and blatant lack, available to draw conclusions, if you think otherwise you aren't uneducated, unaware, or ignorant. Just fvckin stupid.

Just my personal opinion, not regurgitated or drawn by anyone else other than me from what I've seen and know; I don't understand how the same person who thinks a 767 took down those towers could possibly not notice the lack of damage at the Pentagon from supposedly the same type of aircraft. No plane wreckage, no bodies. I mean come the frig on.

[fabiodriven]

How can you say "undoubtedly?" I've seen video's supporting both theories. I'm honestly on the fence. Now do I think think there's more than meets the eye? Yes. Do I think a government that is not smart enough to plant "wmd's" in Iraq to say "told you so" is smart enough pull off an elaborate conspiracy and no one in the deep state has blown a whistle? No. For every video showing a cover-up, there's another supporting the facts as presented. Both sides have an agenda and I belive there are three sides to every story. Your side, my side, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

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Bryan I hope you watch what the engineers and architects have to say.