'84 Honda 200ES, Poor Running... Ignition?

[barnett468]

Tried again to check timing with the light on the flywheel -- there's no way I can do that. Even with the oil dipstick removed to relieve pressure, as soon as I remove the sight plug, oil is shooting out, completely covering the light with oil. I have to wear glasses to keep from getting oil in my eyes.

I did what my1423 suggested...


That actually worked really slick! I can see that the pulse coil and the magnetic trigger stay in perfect alignment, and I can tell that it's advancing as RPMs rise off idle. I can also see the mechanical advance mechanism moving behind the pulse coil.

Hello

That’s very nice now please tell us if the lite fires on the F in the window because this has nothing to do with that unless you first properly line up the F in the window and then mark a line ANYWHERE on the rotating assembly and corresponding location on the block!

Now since the mechanical advance does NOT affect the timing marks this way please tell us how you now plan to check the actual total amount of advance created by the mechanical advance and the RPM at which it begins and finishes. Also since this is not accurate to determine actual timing at idle unless you line up the F in the window first and then mark the advancer and engine.

What do you plan to do now that you have not determined anything we haven’t already determined?

I suggested you could put plastic wrap over the window to contain oil splash and see if that helped so what happened to that suggestion.

Since it doesn’t splash at mid throttle then why don’t you simply put the F in the window mark advancer and engine/pickup accordingly then check to make sure lines on advancer line up at idle when lite flashes on them, then go to the window and check full advance at half throttle where you said the oil did NOT splash?

[my1423]

Place a cinder block under the left wheel.
Do the timing check.
If you still have bad oil spray add some lumber till it has leaned far enough over to not spray you.
Idea is to get the majority of the oil into the right case. Not all! just the majority.
May need to add one to the front tire as well.

Not going 90 just enough to move the oil.

Your idle may go up as it runs in this position and the gas in the carb gets used.
You will have to put it level to get the fuel level up then shut it off, jack it up, start and check.
If it dies in this position, an easy way to see if your float level is way too low.
If gas starts poring out of the carb then you have too high a level or a bad float on the right.
Can also jack up the right side to check the left float.

[tvpierce]

Hello

That’s very nice now please tell us if the lite fires on the F in the window because this has nothing to do with that unless you first properly line up the F in the window and then mark a line ANYWHERE on the rotating assembly and corresponding location on the block!

Now since the mechanical advance does NOT affect the timing marks this way please tell us how you now plan to check the actual total amount of advance created by the mechanical advance and the RPM at which it begins and finishes. Also since this is not accurate to determine actual timing at idle unless you line up the F in the window first and then mark the advancer and engine.

What do you plan to do now that you have not determined anything we haven’t already determined?

I suggested you could put plastic wrap over the window to contain oil splash and see if that helped so what happened to that suggestion.

Since it doesn’t splash at mid throttle then why don’t you simply put the F in the window mark advancer and engine/pickup accordingly then check to make sure lines on advancer line up at idle when lite flashes on them, then go to the window and check full advance at half throttle where you said the oil did NOT splash?

Barnett,



While I fully appreciate the time, effort and knowledge you've committed to helping me get this sorted out, I don't appreciate the tone of many of your posts!

If you can't respond in a civil, respectful manner... please refrain from responding at all.

Thank you.

With 3 points of reference -- one on the Pulse Coil, one on the Magnetic Rotor, and one on the bolt holding the pulse/advance mechanism in place -- I learned the following:

1) There is no advance added by the Chinese CDI. (We suspected there wasn't, but now we know for sure)

2) At idle, the mechanical advance mechanism IS NOT advancing.

3) Coming off idle, the mechanical advance mechanism begins advancing.

4) The mechanical advance mechanism does reach full advance.

This is by no means a definitive test, but it's helpful.

[tvpierce]

Place a cinder block under the left wheel.
Do the timing check.
If you still have bad oil spray add some lumber till it has leaned far enough over to not spray you.
Idea is to get the majority of the oil into the right case. Not all! just the majority.
May need to add one to the front tire as well.

Not going 90 just enough to move the oil.

Your idle may go up as it runs in this position and the gas in the carb gets used.
You will have to put it level to get the fuel level up then shut it off, jack it up, start and check.
If it dies in this position, an easy way to see if your float level is way too low.
If gas starts poring out of the carb then you have too high a level or a bad float on the right.
Can also jack up the right side to check the left float.

That should help.

Thanks.

[kb0nly]

Ok so you confirmed no advance on the CDI, which i also suspected because i haven't had any issue with them, and you also confirmed your mechanical advance is working... Awesome, so it sounds like no timing or spark issues now its just the carb problems correct?

Did you ever hear from the guy you bought that replacement carb from? I am still not sure what motor that carb should be on, i know for sure its not for a 200ES... LOL

[tvpierce]

After a little more research, I bet it's an early 200x carb.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...rb-200-vs-200x
Makes sense: same basic engine, same displacement, but more punch & tuned for top end, so you'd need the larger throat.
(Looks like he was having the same basic problem as me in terms of throttle cable & idle.)


My engine was exhibiting the same bog/stumble with both carbs.

Could a stretched chain cause the problem I'm experiencing?

The reason I ask is that when I was checking the valve timing, the mark on the cam sprocket didn't line up exactly. It was less than a half-tooth behind, so if I had advanced it one tooth, it would have been "more off" in the other direction. This is the position with the flywheel in the "T" position:


Is that normal -- or within spec?

[dougspcs]

Barnett,



While I fully appreciate the time, effort and knowledge you've committed to helping me get this sorted out, I don't appreciate the tone of many of your posts!

If you can't respond in a civil, respectful manner... please refrain from responding at all.

Thank you.

.

Well put..welcome to the Barnett Show!

The reason why many senior members won't answer 'new member threads', he mows them down with this megaposts and corrects them!!

He himself is only and 4 month member..

[dougspcs]

After a little more research, I bet it's an early 200x carb.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...rb-200-vs-200x
Makes sense: same basic engine, same displacement, but more punch & tuned for top end, so you'd need the larger throat.
(Looks like he was having the same basic problem as me in terms of throttle cable & idle.)


My engine was exhibiting the same bog/stumble with both carbs.

Could a stretched chain cause the problem I'm experiencing?

The reason I ask is that when I was checking the valve timing, the mark on the cam sprocket didn't line up exactly. It was less than a half-tooth behind, so if I had advanced it one tooth, it would have been "more off" in the other direction. This is the position with the flywheel in the "T" position:


Is that normal -- or within spec?

While it isn't in spec, the timing chain should be ok for now. You can make up some valve timing with ignition timing adjustment..

There are units out there with much worse chains..just make sure the adjuster is taking it up enough that it doesn't rattle or worse..jump.

There is a YouTube video to describe how to do it 'old school' when the adjuster is old and sticks..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GpoHh9EMhaU

[my1423]

You could have a stretched chain, but the pic has it not so far off.
Easy test. Move the crank back and forth and see if there is slack in the chain.
If there is do an adjustment. If still slack, new chain.
Also if any links wiggle up down on the top of the sprocket as you turn it over, new chain.


More likely the bog is from the carb.
With this info should be able to tune it in.
What is the id number on the side of the carb? pd up high then ??? ??? on the side of the carb by the bowl. Last 3 do not matter.
Measure the width of the slide in mm.
Measure the manifold opening on the carb.

What are the numbers on the jets?
Any numbers on the needle?
Do the jets have the star k emblem on them? Generics do not and many suck!
What is your elevation?
Floats are they yellowish plastic or black hard foam?

[tvpierce]

While it isn't in spec, the timing chain should be ok for now. You can make up some valve timing with ignition timing adjustment..

There are units out there with much worse chains..just make sure the adjuster is taking it up enough that it doesn't rattle or worse..jump.

There is a YouTube video to describe how to do it 'old school' when the adjuster is old and sticks..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GpoHh9EMhaU

I've seen that video, and several others by that user, "D-Ray". His videos are fantastic. He's very knowledgeable, explains well, and shoots/edits nicely to boot.

Thanks.

[tvpierce]

What is the id number on the side of the carb?

55A [B]VJ ("b" has a square around it.)

Measure the width of the slide in mm.

20mm

Measure the manifold opening on the carb.

Don't have the carb off now, but can measure it tomorrow.

What are the numbers on the jets?

It's a Moose Racing rebuild kit -- so no star k on them. I checked the jets in the kit against to jets I took out -- they were the same.
Main jet: 95
2nd jet: 38
Needle jet: 36J
I don't believe the needle had a number on it.
(I can confirm these when I take the carb off)

What is your elevation?

About 200' ASL (I'm right near the coast in Maine)

Floats are yellowish plastic.

[kb0nly]

That in my opinion is chain stretch and has nothing to do with the tensioner, let me explain... The crank and cam are going counterclockwise so the left side is under tension from the crank, the slack or return side is the right side which is taken up by the tensioner... So looking at your pic the timing mark is just slightly to the right, meaning more length then normal on the left side of the chain, the tensioner won't fix that as its a set distance between the cam and crank sprockets, so the only reason for that additional length is chain stretch! Adding more tension to the slack side of the chain than is necessary will only wear the sprockets and tensioner, you might already have a good amount of wear but normally you can still get by with a new chain and tensioner without replacing the sprockets unless they are badly worn, i have a few examples of bad ones in the junk pile here, they can get really bad fast with a loose chain.

Its not that bad though in my opinion, i have seen far worse, if the tensioner is taking up the slack and it doesn't rattle or sound excessively loose its ok for now, but you will have to do a chain and tensioner soon!

[my1423]

That china carb looks like a 30mm they use on the 220-250cc scooters. Plain too big!
You manifold will not line up proper on that carb. Big issues. Probable intake leak with it.
Stock carb or a 200x carb are the best for your machine unless you do a bunch of mods.

According to the official 84 200es honda manual that is the stock factory carb.
Stock main jet size and floats

I do not care for some aftermarket carb kits.
I have not used a moose kit.
On others they always seem to jack the pilot / slow jet.
The fuel hole will be the proper size, but the top 8 aeration holes will be too small or misplaced! Keyster Bad on this!
This can cause a low end throttle bog.
If you still have the stock keihin slow jet compare it to the moose.
If you have it clean it and use it. Standard Wire brush a single strand should go through the small center hole with a lot of turning to get out the junk.

Make sure that the collar that sits on the main jet is there.
Part 16 Can cause a top end bog.
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/searc...TOR/parts.html

Check that the float has no cracks or gas in it.

Stock settings for that carb are
#3 needle clip
1 7/8 turn out on pilot air screw
14mm float level nearly impossible to set on the old plastic float. If you need a new one get the xr adjustable floats.
Part number 16013-405-004
The china carb one should work but setting it to the level will require a gauge.

Simple test to check for air leaks on carb and manifold.
With the airbox on and hooked up.
Start the bike.
Take carb cleaner or starting fluid and spray a little on the manifold.
If the rpms go up you have a leak.




Cam chains can be had for 20$ on ebay. You will need a puller to get the flywheel off.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-XR-200...487125&vxp=mtr

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce

Ok so you confirmed no advance on the CDI, and you also confirmed your mechanical advance is working... Awesome, so it sounds like no timing or spark issues

Did you ever determine what your initial and full advance timing actually is?

XXXXX

Place a cinder block under the left wheel.
Do the timing check.
If you still have bad oil spray add some lumber till it has leaned far enough over to not spray you.

May need to add one to the front tire as well.

Your idle may go up as it runs in this position and the gas in the carb gets used.
You will have to put it level to get the fuel level up then shut it off, jack it up, start and check.
If gas starts poring out of the carb then you have too high a level or a bad float on the right.

QUOTE=tvpierce;1225737]That should help. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Did you use my1423’s cinder block/lumber suggestion to check it? I didn’t suggest this method because I didn’t consider it safe to recommend.



FROM POST 99

I didn't measure the RPM down that low, but yes, it idles flawlessly way down to a lumbering idle -- leisurely chugging along.

In my experience your description suggests to me that you do not have an air leak and it unequivocally eliminates your cam timing as being the cause of your restricted rpm or any burble/stuttering etc. A retarded cam will rev more than an advanced one until such time that it is advanced or retarded enough to noticeably affect performance which in your case it is not otherwise it would not idle down as low as it sounds like it does. However I would put a new chain and replace guides on it as necessary if it was mine.

Simple test to check for air leaks on carb and manifold.
With the airbox on and hooked up.
Start the bike.
Take carb cleaner or starting fluid and spray a little on the manifold.
If the rpms go up you have a leak.

If I remember correctly this has already been suggested in one of the 115 previous posts however if you haven’t already done this or choose to do this again I suggest you use FLAMMABLE brake or carb cleaner. Most the brake/carb cleaners I see where I live are now water based due to EPA regulations. Since I personally have not ever gotten a water based brake or carb cleaner to burn I avoid using them for tests where a flammable liquid is required. I have also seen many people that are unaware that the brake or carb cleaner they are using to check for air leaks is water based and therefore they did not find a leak that they actually had until much later.


I also use the small long narrow nozzle it comes with. The nozzle focuses the spray which helps to more specifically locate where a possible leak may be coming from. When used by depressing the nozzle just part way It also reduces the amount of flammable liquid that might splatter around thereby reducing any dangers that might be encountered by using it such as possible splattering of fluid back into the eyes or on hot engine parts and reducing the amount of possible carcinogenic fumes you might inhale.

[tvpierce]

Hi all.

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this -- been busy giving the lawnmower, tractor, boat & weedwacker their spring service. (Geez, I need another internal combustion engine like I need a hole in the head!)

Thanks for the info re: the timing chain and stretch. It's just something I recalled from when I had it apart... good to know that it's not problematic as it is.

I haven't checked the initial timing yet with one wheel propped up. I've run into a problem that I'm reluctant to post here because I don't want to get us off the topic of the the stumble/bog issue. Here's the new problem though: the transmission will not downshift past 3rd gear -- so I can't run it in neutral. The kids have been riding it around in the field in 4th gear/low range, and that's worked OK. I'll start the new thread about the transmission problem.

Running around in the field did produce some interesting results though: I can "tune out" some of the stumble by working the choke with my left hand while riding. The choke won't completely correct the problem by any means, but it will improve it some. That certainly does seem to point toward a lean condition: either and too much air (leak) or not enough fuel.

Fuel level in the carb bowl is 1/4" below the bowl/carb seam. Honda doesn't give a spec for measuring with this method (or at least I didn't see one), but Barnett, you indicated it should be 1/8". That's a significant difference -- the spec Kawasaki gives for a street bike I used to own is "at the seam, plus or minus one mm". So being off by a full 1/8" is huge, right? There is no metal tine on the float -- it's 100% plastic. I don't think I could safely bend 30 year old plastic. Thoughts?
The original float needle allowed for a higher float level (the static measurement was noticeably different between the original and the new one in the rebuild kit). Maybe I should try the old float needle?